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		<title>Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Lost Men</title>
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				<title>Moz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=381050#post381050</link>
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						<p><q>the way we raise males to tolerate violence, to be our warriors, defenders, to be disposable;</q></p><p>... and then wonder why, having been raised with violence and taught to valourise violence, so few of them are violent? I'm occasionally shocked by women who are habitually violent toward men and how…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2018 09:38:42 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=381049#post381049</link>
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						<p>You’ve made quite a range of points. To address just one.</p><p>Male/female brain differences certainly don’t explain all types of violence. However they do contribute to some such as described in the original post on male gun violence in the US.</p><p>I believe an understanding of this phenomenon is helpful…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2018 09:45:24 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380959#post380959</link>
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						<p>That was a courageous and inspiring piece, the only bit I stumbled over was the conflict between:</p><p><q>Many intersex activists are bravely working to end this practice and to ensure that intersex people have autonomy and control over their bodies; </q></p><p>and this:</p><p><q>a generous and kind society, to continue off…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:29:50 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380958#post380958</link>
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						<p>[contd..]</p><p>So I wasted time trying to spread the word that the counselling service being offered to folks in my position may be detrimental. Meanwhile she kept winning awards and disseminated toxic tweets without content warnings for Twitter gotchas. I went as far as to try to highlight the issue…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:26:21 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380957#post380957</link>
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						<p>[contd..]</p><p>If I may expand on this  a little, in late May 2017, new to twitter,  I made the regrettable error of pointing out to a <a href="https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cis" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">cis</a> woman (which despite <a href="https://twitter.com/GraemeEdgeler/status/1066611936740073473" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">equivocations to the contrary</a> is not a slur as much as <a href="https://twitter.com/keith_ng/status/1066809006436405249" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">a necessity of taxonomy</a>, in the same way as…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:23:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380956#post380956</link>
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						<p>sorry for the delay responding Neil i was awaiting some paperwork </p><p><q>I’m surprised you haven’t accused me of weaponising comas.</q></p><p>I’m relieved you’re familiar with the term as it may help you understand why was so upset by your weaponisation of both gender and mental illness recently. What was exacerbating…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:18:22 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380612#post380612</link>
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						<p><q>We watch TV dramas for entertainment, not to be morally improved or have our cultural sensitivity enhanced....At worst it conveys a faint but unsettling whiff of Stalinist-style totalitarianism, which used art to enforce ideological orthodoxy and ruthlessly suppressed anything that didn't conform. </q></p><p>Pretty silly stuff from du Fresne. We tell…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2018 22:18:16 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380609#post380609</link>
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						<p><q>I’m surprised you haven’t accused me of weaponising comas.</q><br />Surely 'comas' would be 'sleeper agents' <br />or perhaps more 'cometary' than 'commentary'...?<br />:-  )</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:29:47 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380608#post380608</link>
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						<p>...and then there is that other gender champion Karl du Fresne on his epic quest to turn 'role modelling' into 'virtue-signalling'...<br /><a href="https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/108389098/entertaining-and-making-a-statement-about-gender-equality" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/108389098/entertaining-and-making-a-statement-about-gender-equality</a></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:25:41 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380605#post380605</link>
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						<p>I’m surprised you haven’t accused me of weaponising comas.</p><p>Going back to the original post, there are two examples given of Lost Men &ndash; Cesar Sayoc and Robert Bowers. Their behaviour could be described as obsessive, in that they spent a great deal of time and envergy on their preoccupations…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2018 21:43:06 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>linger</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380604#post380604</link>
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						<q>sex-associated</q>Thanks! (I ran out of editing time, then figured "associated" was a sufficient hedge as it makes no claim of direct causation. But it's better to make it explicit.)
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				<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2018 19:31:59 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380598#post380598</link>
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						<p>For those following at home, as citation for what’s being discussed <a href="https://www.mygenefood.com/warrior-gene-5-common-myths/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">MAOA: 5 common myths debunked</a> (content warning – trans exclusionary):</p><p><q>To sum everything up the <strong>interaction between genetics and behaviour is very, very complex to put it mildly. Whilst it is very easy to make bold statements</strong> such as…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2018 13:55:33 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380596#post380596</link>
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						<p><q>muscle bulk,  which of course is gender-associated</q></p><p>Not to dispute your wider point but just to keep things loosely inclusive, and not going full Labour Party on the issue, if I may correct:</p><p><q>learned <strong>gendered behaviour</strong> will also be influenced by different cost/benefit results of aggressive behaviour for individuals with…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2018 13:29:55 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380589#post380589</link>
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						<p><q>the mechanism is still not exclusively genetic</q></p><p>No it’s not and what aspects are are of course to be remedied by social action – which is what I would say  liberal democracy is. Just that attempt to counter our worse nature.</p><p>But what is considered to be socially caused has…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2018 09:45:44 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>linger</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380587#post380587</link>
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						<p>Parts of your claim remaining somewhat controversial are that “holding grudges” and “seeking revenge” are not synonymous with “aggressive behaviour”, nor are they exclusively male preserves, nor do they form any part of the Dunedin Longitudinal study’s findings.<br />Accepting that males do tend to show more aggressive behaviour on average…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2018 08:42:54 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380586#post380586</link>
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						<p><q>If you want to come out with something like that, put some links where your mouth is.</q></p><p>I have provided one link and referenced the Dunedin Longitudinal study whose finding on the genetics of male antisocial behaviour is relevant.</p><p>If you feel that those two sources are problematic I’m interested…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2018 21:11:52 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380572#post380572</link>
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						Thanks for your response Dennis. The <strong>speciousness</strong> reminds me of a younger me on these boards – a bad habit fomented by an inability to publicly address certain aspects of my lived reality in local cyberspace due to fear motivated by trauma punctuated conditioning.   A tendency I feel – with…
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				<pubDate>Sun, 11 Nov 2018 00:44:52 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Dennis Frank</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380569#post380569</link>
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						<p>Ah but I didn't actually do so.  Read it again.  Asserting something is vastly different than raising the question.  You must be aware of that.  Perhaps you were misrepresenting me inadvertently??  So easy to be seduced into subjective reactions and lose the connection with what folks are actually saying.</p><p>The…</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2018 17:03:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Dennis Frank</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380568#post380568</link>
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						People will make of it what they will, Steven.  Not my problem.  What's your problem??  Have you no insight into the spiritual dimension of the world?  Do you deny that it exists?  Many do.  Nothing wrong with that, of course...
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				<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2018 16:57:18 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380565#post380565</link>
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						Again what astonishes me is how you buy into all that, yet when a Māori person calls Don Brash racist you discredit it as <em>‘brain death’</em>.
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				<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2018 08:07:30 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Dennis Frank</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380563#post380563</link>
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						To be honest, differentiating sex & gender is not something I've thought much about &ndash; although I see why it would be ultra-important for some.  And a vital part of identity politics.  My own relevant personal experience is merely having a strong sense of having been female in my incarnation prior…
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				<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2018 06:29:23 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380557#post380557</link>
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						<p><q>I’ve provided evidence</q></p><p>No, you have provided us with nothing but your reckons ever since <a href="https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380340#post380340" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">this claim</a>:</p><p><q>Males do have a tendency to become obsessed, to hold grudges and to seek revenge. That’s genetics. </q></p><p>If you want to come out with something like that, put some links where your mouth…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2018 10:29:28 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380556#post380556</link>
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						<p>oops – some corrections needed in this paragraph:</p><p>Likewise it wasn’t unusual that leading up to the birth the couple continued to entertain by <a href="https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-denies-she-accidentally-revealed-babys-gender" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">indulging the media</a> a number of times as to whether or not they’d <a href="https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/05/jacinda-ardern-denies-clarke-gayford-revealed-baby-s-sex.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">revealed the baby’s sex</a> – going to some substantive lengths to play up…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2018 09:06:57 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380555#post380555</link>
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						<p><q>Mark, I gather that you have taken what I wrote quite personally.</q></p><p>On the other hand, what Neil has been writing I take very personally, because I’m acutely aware of how the type of absolutist gender binary agenda he’s pushing destroys lives. Our threshold for ‘evidence’ has sunk to extraordinarily…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2018 08:30:32 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380552#post380552</link>
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						<p>I’ve provided evidence which you choose to ignore.</p><p>I’m not sure what you are arguing though, you mention « gendered violence » &ndash; are you arguing that there is a different pattern of violence based on gender or not?</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2018 19:34:21 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
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						<p><q>Mark, I gather that you have taken what I wrote quite personally.</q></p><p>Dennis, thanks for your response, I genuinely didn’t.  I’ll readily admit – based on feedback I’ve received throughout the years – that despite my ambitions, I’m not particularly able when it comes to conveying my tone accurately in…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2018 19:15:16 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Dennis Frank</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380548#post380548</link>
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						Mark, I gather that you have taken what I wrote quite personally.  Since I didn't frame it so, I'm puzzled about that.  I take the point that we all have attitudes and opinions deriving from our cultural niche & developmental trajectory, and I'm not aware of any bias against those I'm…
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				<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2018 17:40:18 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
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						<p><q>Men being predisposed to certain behaviour</q></p><p>.. is what you have not established evidence of. Gendered violence is fraught enough without misleading ourselves about aspects of it.</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:26:37 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380544#post380544</link>
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						<p>My genuine feeling is that you showcased how out of your depth you are in discussing sex or gender are when apropos of nothing you called trans women men.</p><p><br />Incidentally as <a href="https://honest-ribbon.org/domestic-violence-law/refuting-40-years-of-lies-about-domestic-violence/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Erin Pizzey</a> who started the first women’s shelter has recounted – the reason we don’t have ‘peoples refuge or…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2018 11:06:46 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
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						<p>We have Women’s Refuge not Peoples’ Refuge.</p><p>The argument is one of variance in a population. Men being predisposed to certain behaviour doesn’t imply some women can’t act in a similar manner.</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2018 08:33:59 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
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						<p><q>an important element of men’s behaviour</q></p><p>an important element of people's behaviour.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2018 20:12:20 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380528#post380528</link>
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						<p>That link didn’t work for me but here’s <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/science/2006/jan/19/research.highereducation" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">another summary</a>, here’s <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2636868/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">the study</a> (cohort of 32), and here’s a recent article about the research leader <a href="https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/08/she-s-world-s-top-empathy-researcher-colleagues-say-she-bullied-and-intimidated-them" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Tania Singer</a>:</p><p><q>But inside her lab, it was a very different story, eight former and current colleagues say in interviews with Science. The researchers, all…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:51:26 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380524#post380524</link>
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						<p><a href="https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1508174/Men-hungrier-for-revenge-than-women-brain-scan-study-reveals.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Men appear to get greater satisfaction than women from witnessing painful retribution, according to a brain scanner study published today.</a></p><p>Not sure why you keep going for snark. It seems like an important element of men’s behaviour especially in this age of Trump.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:11:46 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380508#post380508</link>
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						<p><q>Truth in that &ndash; but still, things have changed. I grew up with a strong sense of a govt 'safety net' &ndash; and no sense that only winners mattered and failure was a crushing personal responsibility. I don't think today's teenagers feel the same way.</q></p><p>The safety net has definitely…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2018 16:59:03 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380489#post380489</link>
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						The research I am aware of (not a specialist topic of interest) finds no gendered difference in motivations of revenge or obsessiveness. However, I do not need anything further from you on the topic.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2018 12:52:08 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380488#post380488</link>
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						<p>Hi Dennis, I hope my hesitancy in replying isn’t taken as anything but indicative of exactly how objectionable I find your position on this. </p><p><q>The problem has emerged due to inaccuracy of language usage. The original meaning of racism is belief that one race is superior to the others. </q>  </p><p>Excluding…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2018 12:36:08 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rob Stowell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380444#post380444</link>
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						<q>It’s always been this way in NZ. Mental illness was something that you hid away, in asylums or in cottages out the back of the farm. The whole “man alone” bullshit was about striving and winning against the environment, other people, the Wellington rulemakers etc. Nothing’s changed except that we…</q>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2018 09:37:36 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380440#post380440</link>
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						<p><q>We have all encountered research about the gendered distribution of violence. ‘Vengeful’ or ‘obsessive’ behaviour I would like to see some evidence for.</q></p><p>There’s research availabile online and almost daily evidence of male violence motivated by revenge. But if you have a different view I’d be happy to engage.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2018 09:10:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380435#post380435</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380435#post380435</guid>
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						<p><q>NZ is also moving the wrong way with suicide. and we've adopted this mantra &ndash; essentially since Rogernomics, but it's moved to totally occupy the subconcious/deepvalues/mindset of the nation. </q></p><p>It's always been this way in NZ. Mental illness was something that you hid away, in asylums or in cottages out…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2018 20:48:39 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380434#post380434</link>
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						<p><q>There is no unfettered right to speech, especially under the NZ legal and political system rather than the US one.</q></p><p>Not even under the US one. Freedom of speech, as defined in the US Bill of Rights is all about the government not having the power to prevent you speaking,…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2018 20:43:40 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rob Stowell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380421#post380421</link>
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						<p>Must read the comments ... :) But this hit me hard<br />“This is a tough country to live in,” he tells her. “If you’re not a competitive person, and I’m not, it’s not easy. Americans like a winner. They don’t like people who aren’t winners. All our lives, we’re given…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2018 10:33:09 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>william blake</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380420#post380420</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380420#post380420</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Had to check those stats Russell and came up with interesting and saddening theories. Indigenous Americans are more highly represented in suicide rates of 23 per 100,000 compared to white men (how is white defined in a country of immigrants from all over the world?) at 18 per 100,000. Black…
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				<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2018 08:57:04 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380418#post380418</link>
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						<p><q>those labels were applied to a couple of visiting Canadian advocates, without any validating evidence.</q></p><p>Except everything they had said before online.</p><p><q>deny Don Brash his right of free speech</q></p><p>There is  no unfettered right to speech, especially under the NZ legal and political system rather than the US one.</p>
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				<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2018 16:52:37 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Dennis Frank</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380416#post380416</link>
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				<description><![CDATA[
						I'm aware of the origin of racism as a belief system (been reading history since the mid-fifties and watching current affairs since the mid-sixties).  Fukuyama is elucidating how identity politics has evolved since the 19th century &ndash; nobody else has done this since it emerged as a political category in…
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				<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2018 11:58:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Dennis Frank</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380415#post380415</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380415#post380415</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						The problem has emerged due to inaccuracy of language usage.  The original meaning of racism is belief that one race is superior to the others.  Back in the colonial era it was conventional to believe the white race was superior.  I never saw any evidence that any of the three…
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				<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2018 11:48:02 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>tussock</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380414#post380414</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380414#post380414</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Dennis, if anyone's calling white nationalists "bigots", maybe it's because ... white nationalists are objectively bigots?</p><p>That's not pejorative. White nationalism is bigoted from the first principle to the last, and entirely based on racist garbage thought about how white skinned people took over the world because God loves them…</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2018 18:11:23 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380413#post380413</link>
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						<p>I’ve appreciated your contributions to this discussion up to and including most of that post Dennis, but this excerpt struck me as somewhat self-contradictory:</p><p><q>Some <strong>pc-drones</strong> even tried to deny Don Brash his right of free speech. The moral of such stories is that politics gets more toxic **when disrespect…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2018 17:47:15 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380412#post380412</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380412#post380412</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>It's all good steven, it's a <a href="https://www.intersexequality.com/how-common-is-intersex-in-humans/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">comparison</a> that comes up from time to time, thank you for your reply and open-mindedness and care. </p><p><q>The most thorough existing research finds intersex people to constitute an estimated 1.7% of the population*, which makes being intersex about as common as having red hair…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2018 17:27:22 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380411#post380411</link>
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						<p>noting the correspondence between 'arguing' and 'argument' I thought that might be what you were getting at, can't be too sure these days and I'm pleased linger helped clarify my point at least, thanks for replying Walter and yes:</p><p><q>good luck finding a way of expressing that argument without sounding…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2018 17:23:26 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Dennis Frank</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380410#post380410</link>
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				<description><![CDATA[
						Thanks for the technical advice.  I've just been reading Fukuyama's chapter 11, in which his account of the historical evolution of identity politics is converging on the present.  I'll quote parts that link historic socioeconomic trends to the rise of Trump via resurgent nationalism (since the white male suiciders are…
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				<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2018 16:35:02 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380409#post380409</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380409#post380409</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						fixed by doubling the underscores, as Steven suggested
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				<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2018 12:06:00 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Walter  Nicholls</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380400#post380400</link>
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				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>I'm sorry Walter I missed the inference there.</q></p><p>Sorry for coming back a day later .. this is the problem with keeping comments too short.<br />What I meant was that you don't <strong>need</strong> "an argument for treating men who have transitioned to women as women". They literally are women at…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2018 22:35:02 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380392#post380392</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380392#post380392</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>it didn’t work! Why not?</q><br />What Steven said, and sometimes those keyboard code commands don’t activate if hard up against another punctuation mark before – always have a character space before starting any invisible commands.<br />.<em>test</em>.<br />’<em>test</em>.<br />.<strong>bold</strong><br /><em>test</em>.<br /><em>test</em>.<br /><strong>bold</strong></p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2018 15:07:25 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>linger</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380391#post380391</link>
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				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q> <em>Thymos</em> is the part of the soul that craves recognition of dignity</q><br />Cf. the concept of “face” in politeness theory (Brown &amp; Levinson 1987), which distinguishes two aspects of identity:<br /><strong>positive face</strong> = need to be valued, liked, accepted as belonging to a group<br /><strong>negative face</strong> = need for personal freedom…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2018 14:22:09 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Dennis Frank</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380387#post380387</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380387#post380387</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Well, I tried the instructions for italicising text that this site provides under the `post your response' window &ndash; but as you can see it didn't work!  Why not?
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				<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2018 10:23:28 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Dennis Frank</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380386#post380386</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380386#post380386</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Russell wrote:  "while suicide rates in most western countries have decreased over the past two decades, in America, the rate is up by a third. And one group is driving the increase: white, middle-aged men...  Men, who have lost jobs, status, security and identity are killing themselves...  it's impossible not…
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				<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2018 10:19:08 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mpledger</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380381#post380381</link>
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				<description><![CDATA[
						Yea, I'm a little out of date because I first came across this stuff a couple of years ago.
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				<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2018 08:38:12 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380380#post380380</link>
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				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Putting myself in your shoes isn’t easy,<br />but its well worth making the effort.</q><br /><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybUqM8jf3mU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Shod by both sides?</a></p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2018 08:35:40 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Alex Rahr</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380379#post380379</link>
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				<description><![CDATA[
						Mpledger &ndash; Dunno about the US, but in many parts of the UK death rates have stopped improving and in a few parts they’re actually getting worse. Over there it’s being blamed on austerity (in social services, health, and the bits that fall between) by academics.  Maybe there are some…
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				<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2018 22:59:55 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380377#post380377</link>
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				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>I hear you.</p><p><q>And it’s up to each individual to decide how they would like to be addressed</q></p><p>That is <a href="https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/quora-uk/i-was-born-intersex-and-d_b_17768438.html?guccounter=1&amp;guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS5oay8&amp;guce_referrer_cs=DSBrfdCv8UKncc1k25OZ0w" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">assuming</a> they <a href="http://www.isna.org/books/chrysalis/dreger" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">know</a>, if they’re <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/9318nb/gender_identity_crisis_transintersex/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">even told</a> or <a href="https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/73289800/its-okay-to-be-intersex–but-unconsented-surgery-is-not-advocate" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">figure it out</a>:</p><p><q>For Sterling, the pieces didn’t fall into place until the late 30s.</q></p><p>• Bearing in mind how deep our complicity…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2018 20:35:58 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380375#post380375</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380375#post380375</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Absolutely – tolerance and normalisation of casual misgendering is the issue. That second example had me pondering whether it was in regard to <a href="https://www.health.harvard.edu/womens-health/testosterone-therapy-is-it-for-women" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">cis-women</a> undergoing <a href="https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/773774_6" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">testosterone therapy</a> until the pronoun – then wondering why – in either example – are they not using  “trans woman” and “trans man” respectively? Why…
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				<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2018 16:26:30 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>linger</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380372#post380372</link>
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				<description><![CDATA[
						Yes, but more accurately it <em>shouldn’t be subject to</em> argument. Also note the recurring language issue in that the individuals get primarily labelled by their externally-assigned sex at birth (e.g. "a man we should treat as a woman"), rather than by their self-identified gender (e.g. "a woman") – thus relegating…
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				<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2018 15:34:30 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380371#post380371</link>
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						I'm sorry Walter I missed the inference there.
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				<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2018 15:32:59 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Walter  Nicholls</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380370#post380370</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380370#post380370</guid>
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						<p><q>treating ... as women</q><br />Given this is entirely the point, it doesn't seem to need arguing.</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2018 15:18:45 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mark taslov</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380367#post380367</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380367#post380367</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Imagine my surprise reading down the thread on these otherwise safe boards only to encounter first one blatantly transphobic dogwhistle: <em>"One current argument for <strong>treating men</strong> who have transitioned to women as women is that “</em> unmoderated, transphobia unchallenged, and then look there’s another __“ a <strong>biologically female</strong> person receiving…
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				<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2018 12:03:20 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380366#post380366</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380366#post380366</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><strong>Mappist Trunks</strong><br />Boxing on … speaking of map reading and men taking orders… </p><p>and then there’s <a href="https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-sticks-and-shell-charts-became-sophisticated-system-navigation-180954018/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">sticks and stones that will take you home!</a></p><p>also see: <a href="http://nautil.us/blog/dragons-memory–navigating-the-globe-using-only-your-wits" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"> the art of Polynesian wayfinding.</a></p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2018 10:07:41 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>SHG</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380364#post380364</link>
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				<description><![CDATA[
						If I recall correctly, a biologically female person receiving testosterone will begin navigating his way through the world differently. That’s not a metaphor, I mean literally relying less on points of reference and more on “dead reckoning”. Insert joke about men asking for directions here.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 23:59:41 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mpledger</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380363#post380363</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380363#post380363</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						I'm a little skeptical* about the decreased survival rates of white men in the USA.  All other ethnic groups in the US are showing increased survival rates, as well as white people in all other places in the Western World.    My suspicion is that when people die without relatives to…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 23:16:32 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380362#post380362</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380362#post380362</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Men are predisposed to vengeful obsessive behaviour. </q></p><p>We have all encountered research about the gendered distribution of violence. 'Vengeful' or 'obsessive' behaviour I would like to see some evidence for.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:59:11 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380360#post380360</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380360#post380360</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>As an aside, the Nouméa Accord plays out in New Caledonia this week with the referendum on independence. Sadly there’s a very real chance that the result may not be respected by the losing side. That could lead to the sort political violence seen in the 80s.</p><p>The Accord was…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:07:54 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380359#post380359</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380359#post380359</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>I’m just interested in how the mind works, with a particular focus on categories (and the role of story), and think that understanding male power dynamics is critical to dealing with the resurgent threats to liberal democracy.</p><p>And I think what we are is in large part the product of…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 18:31:49 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380357#post380357</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380357#post380357</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>I see myself using such information to help understand and deal with unwell males whose social dominance behaviour can lead to aggression.</p><p>Side stepping direct confrontation could be one strategy.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 18:00:24 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380355#post380355</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380355#post380355</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Testosterone is interesting as the evidence points to it producing either pro-social or anti-social behaviour depending how the male sees themselves within a social hierarchy.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 16:57:57 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>linger</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380354#post380354</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380354#post380354</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Some people have testified (there are some fascinating examples in<a href="https://www.thisamericanlife.org/220/testosterone" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"> <em>This American Life</em> episode 220</a>) to experiencing striking changes in mood and behaviour associated with changes in their baseline testosterone level. <strong>But</strong> individuals vary in their sensitivity to testosterone, so not everyone on hormone treatment will experience these effects as…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 16:32:21 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380353#post380353</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380353#post380353</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>It’s a continuum, to quote from the article you linked to:</p><p><q>Alexandra Kautzky-Willer, head of the Gender Medicine Unit at the Medical University of Vienna in Austria, agrees that things aren’t so simple. “There are differences between men and women when you look in large groups, and these are important…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 16:03:40 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Kevin McCready</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380352#post380352</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380352#post380352</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<a href="https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1057010272836247552" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1057010272836247552</a>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 15:40:43 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Emma Hart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380351#post380351</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380351#post380351</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>What do you make of the gender pattern of perpetrators of mass killings and hate crimes in the US?</q></p><p>Social conditioning.</p><p><a href="https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">There is no such thing as brain gender</a>. </p><p><q>Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had “all-male” or “all-female” brains, depending on the definition. “Most…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 14:57:33 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380350#post380350</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380350#post380350</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						One current argument for treating men who have transitioned to women as women is that their brains are more similar to those of women than to men.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 13:45:56 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Dennis Frank</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380346#post380346</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380346#post380346</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						As far as relevant generalisations go, there's always `men are from Mars, women are from Venus'.  When the book of that title became a best-seller in '92, I was amazed. It seemed that everyone had long known that already, so why spend money to learn what you already know?  It…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 11:31:47 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380345#post380345</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380345#post380345</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Some links to back up that claim would be useful, thanks.</q></p><p>What do you make of the gender pattern of perpetrators of mass killings and hate crimes in the US?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 10:10:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380344#post380344</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380344#post380344</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Men are predisposed to vengeful obsessive behaviour.</q></p><p>Some links to back up that claim would be useful, thanks.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 09:20:30 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380342#post380342</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380342#post380342</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>You’re not actually a mental health professional, thankfully.</q></p><p>That’s an odd response. I’m not sure what you’re taking issue with.</p><p>Men are predisposed to vengeful obsessive behaviour. How this does or doesn’t blur into what could be defined as mental illness has been debated just about everytime something like this…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2018 07:20:00 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Neil</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380340#post380340</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380340#post380340</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>If there’s an argument about whether or not he’s mad or bad one question to ask is what difference that would make.</p><p>I remember the arguments over Brevik, I don’t think it went much further than the left and right staking out ideologically convenient positions. </p><p>Males do have a tendency…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2018 19:20:13 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Deep Blue</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380338#post380338</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380338#post380338</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Were Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin humans ?<br />Humans can be monsters as well.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2018 17:54:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Zach Bagnall</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380337#post380337</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380337#post380337</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						He can be both.
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				<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2018 17:13:18 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Kevin McCready</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380336#post380336</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380336#post380336</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						So he's not a human now?
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				<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2018 17:10:33 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Russell Brown</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380335#post380335</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380335#post380335</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>I know nothing about Bowers but presume he’s also mentally ill; if that’s the case calling him monster should be reconsidered.</q></p><p>I looked at his social media. He had become a monster.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2018 17:08:03 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Kevin McCready</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380334#post380334</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380334#post380334</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						I know nothing about Bowers but presume he's also mentally ill; if that's the case calling him monster should be reconsidered.
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				<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2018 16:50:37 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Public Address</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380333#post380333</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-lost-men/?p=380333#post380333</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Discussion from blog post.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2018 16:50:37 +1300</pubDate>
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