Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Labour's medical cannabis bill and a new Drug Harm Index

Alfie

Sun, 24 Apr 2016 12:18:56 +1200

Here's a sadly misinformed piece of nonsense on the cannabis debate from John Key's personal biographer, John Roughan.

With a subtitle of 'Health approach' for cannabis reform did not work the last time, Roughan makes the fundamental error of confusing a natural plant with the chemical cocktails found in synthetics. His…

Joe Wylie

Sun, 24 Apr 2016 10:38:01 +1200

For reasons known only to himself, the NDIB's acting head at the time, DS Stuart Mills, refused to withdraw the report.

__Detective Sergeant Stuart Mills, acting head of the NDIB at the time, wrote back saying while there could have been better consultation and peer review, the report would not…

Alfie

Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:28:46 +1200

The SST has further revelations on Les Maxwell's now discredited 2007 New Cannabis report. Documents released under the OIA show that Ministry of Health officials warned at the time that the report would harm the reputation of NZ’s National Drug Intelligence Bureau (NDIB) and asked for all copies to be…

Sofie Bribiesca

Thu, 21 Apr 2016 17:58:02 +1200

I remember him. He was a tad rabid, yes.

Medical Marijuana may have been just the key for Shulgin. I thought at the time a joint could have done him wonders.

nzlemming

Thu, 21 Apr 2016 00:18:27 +1200

There was a commenter here called Shulgin, who I think I banned after he got obsessive about that and other issues

I remember him. He was a tad rabid, yes.

Alfie

Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:42:16 +1200

Herald gives foaming dunce McCoskrie a platform to spread lies.

Why bother with trivial matters like facts or science when you just know, deep down, that your long-held predudices must be correct. Bob certainly knows how to play it fast and loose.

In 1979, the National Organisation for the Reform…

Sacha

Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:53:40 +1200

Herald gives foaming dunce McCoskrie a platform to spread lies.

Marijuana was made illegal because it is harmful.

Russell Brown

Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:27:58 +1200

It’s taken an unemployed sociologist named Steve Dawson several years to determine that the Police report exagerated the reality by a factor of at least ten

Good work that man.

There was a commenter here called Shulgin, who I think I banned after he got obsessive about that and other…

nzlemming

Sun, 17 Apr 2016 22:40:54 +1200

Maxwell, who is still with the police, says he doesn’t want to discuss his report.

I’ll bet he doesn’t.

Sounds like an OIA to me.

BenWilson

Sun, 17 Apr 2016 15:03:19 +1200

Yes. Also I think that being searched at any time for something you aren't actually holding is a harm. Being detained during it, and also any damage done by the police. Anecdotally this can actually be quite a lot of damage when it's a house search. One is a loss…

Rich of Observationz

Sun, 17 Apr 2016 14:56:35 +1200

Not to mention the fairly large number of generally honest and peaceable people who are disinclined to engage with the police because of their role in enforcing drug laws – which leaves police less able to do their core job of preventing crimes of violence and dishonesty.

Also true of…

BenWilson

Sun, 17 Apr 2016 14:21:29 +1200

You'll notice they don't slice and dice the cost of the policing the war on drugs. It being an optional thing, something we could choose not to do, a cold calculus could easily be applied to see if it's worth it. For all their "societal harm reduction" funny money calculations,…

Alfie

Sun, 17 Apr 2016 11:17:16 +1200

I don’t know about you, but for years I’ve suspected that the Police pretty much invent dollar amounts to justify cannabis busts and ensure continued funding. You read about someone being caught with 20 plants which the Police value at $x plus that much larger figure of “social harm” prevented…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 13 Apr 2016 11:01:41 +1200

This from today’s flaccid excuse for a newspaper. An actual article that does not beat the drum for John Key &co. but reveals a skunk in the works.
The Herald
Co-authored by the South Auckland Kotahitangi Community Trust’s chairman, Peter Caccioppoli, and the trust’s GP, Rhys Cullen, it argued “the…

Russell Brown

Tue, 12 Apr 2016 20:16:07 +1200

Seems only fair, since there are drugs for the pathologically flaccid, and they’re not for any other purpose than fun. But since that’s a problem that mostly affects old men, it’s no wonder that’s legal. They’re allowed their fun, at personal risk, and that risk is hardly insubstantial considering the…

BenWilson

Tue, 12 Apr 2016 19:56:48 +1200

I kinda meant

I know, I was just fooling around. Sort of.

Russell Brown

Tue, 12 Apr 2016 19:45:50 +1200

but anyhoo

That study is very interesting.

andin

Tue, 12 Apr 2016 19:28:31 +1200

flaccid

Yeah well lets not mock old men vicariously but I kinda meant behaviours, as in mental straitjackets of behaviour.
If you've ever seen a person who has never had acid take it and try and keep control of everything, even when the walls and floor start going all wavy…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 12 Apr 2016 08:43:05 +1200

and they’re not for any other purpose than fun.
Priapic epics vs Viagra falls?

BenWilson

Tue, 12 Apr 2016 08:27:48 +1200

Seems only fair, since there are drugs for the pathologically flaccid, and they're not for any other purpose than fun. But since that's a problem that mostly affects old men, it's no wonder that's legal. They're allowed their fun, at personal risk, and that risk is hardly insubstantial considering the…

andin

Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:37:08 +1200

proposed use of psilocybin?

, psychedelics have the potential for use in breaking down the pathologically rigid behaviours

Yeah give it to the pathologically rigid, take your pick...

Russell Brown

Mon, 11 Apr 2016 21:00:28 +1200

Rate from 1-5 (1 = totally ineffective, 5 = very effective)

"Helped me write that song"

This was my argument when Peter Dunne was still a drug prohibitionist but characterising the gambling industry levy as an "envy tax". How many awesome records did pokies help the Beatles make?

linger

Mon, 11 Apr 2016 18:44:39 +1200

Nor are the harm/benefit calculations for different drugs in any way independent. You note reduction of alternative drug use; but the interactions can be even more systematic. For example, take the proposed use of psilocybin to help people quit smoking. Twice as effective as any standard treatment, apparently, though there…

BenWilson

Mon, 11 Apr 2016 17:17:27 +1200

It should be reasonably obvious that the minor goods I note are mostly much smaller than the harms they could be set against. However, they might occur with far higher frequency. For every instance of an alcohol induced harm, there could be hundreds of alcohol induced goods. If you're going…

BenWilson

Mon, 11 Apr 2016 16:00:06 +1200

Medical usage would be interesting to know, of course. But the positive side would be much wider than that. It would be a self evaluation of anything good about the drug that they could think of.

Rate from 1-5 (1 = totally ineffective, 5 = very effective)

"Helped break down…

linger

Sun, 10 Apr 2016 02:38:05 +1200

It’s like no one sane ever took drugs.By definition, for those believing the hype of campaigns like the classic “This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. Any questions?”

Meanwhile on BBC Radio 4, broadcast 7 April 2016: Psychadelic Science
Jamie Bartlett asks if new research into psychedelic…

BenWilson

Sat, 09 Apr 2016 19:39:48 +1200

Is that how it works?

I'm still trying to get my head around how it works, by reading it. It seems to turn harm into dollars in order to get a number that we think we can understand. So for example:

The most recent government estimate for the value of…

Rich of Observationz

Sat, 09 Apr 2016 18:43:50 +1200

I'd think the same might apply here (much as it's apparently possible to escape a fine for public drinking if your lawyer demands evidence that the substance you were imbibing was in fact alcoholic).

Steve Barnes

Sat, 09 Apr 2016 17:00:26 +1200

figures (based on n=12) become fact.

However, when looked at by individual, cannabinoids cause the least personal harm at $9900 each year per dependent user
We must assume, of course, that these figures are accurate to greater than 90%, otherwise they would have rounded that figure to $10,000.... wouldn't they?…

tussock

Sat, 09 Apr 2016 15:38:20 +1200

Haha, wait, they want us to arrest people for selling tea and coffee?

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 09 Apr 2016 13:52:42 +1200

This might have already been noted / posted:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/30/legal-highs-ban-uk-delayed-concerns-law-enforceable-psychoactive-definition
The (British) government’s blanket ban on legal highs that was due to come into effect on 6 April has been postponed for at least a month, the Home Office has said.
The Psychoactive Substances Act, which has reached the statute book,…

BenWilson

Sat, 09 Apr 2016 12:01:35 +1200

If the kid had instead downed a bottle of Jack Daniels, I wonder if that would be counted on official stats as an alcohol-related death?

It probably should be. Harm resulting from (or at least associated with) cannabis impairment should certainly be recorded. But I agree that it should be…

Alfie

Sat, 09 Apr 2016 11:50:16 +1200

This report reaches the MSM and its figures (based on n=12) become fact.

Tze Ming Mok

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 20:22:40 +1200

What's interesting is the attempt to cross-validate expert survey DHI findings (n=12) with estimated harm costs of the drugs, most of which cannot be validated by anything else. It's sort of like: "Here's some soft and imprecise data – how does it match up to another set of soft and…

Tze Ming Mok

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 20:05:21 +1200

Okay what. A survey of twelve people. Fine, it's a pilot.

I suppose he was looking more for proof of concept for the Index itself. Thus, it's admirably transparent of the report to admit that Nutt the Wise had experts rank sixteen indicators of harm for each drug in the…

B Jones

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 20:01:38 +1200

it’s almost impossible to overdose because people fall asleep well before reaching any lethal amount.

No problem, so long as you're not driving, or flying a hot air balloon, or boating, or walking along a country road at night. Something doesn't need to be toxic to be dangerous.

Did anyone…

Russell Brown

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 17:43:23 +1200

Silly question… who is the report’s author, Dr Michael McFadden of the “McFadden Consultancy”. Google doesn’t turn up anything in NZ for either the man or the company.

He's Australian :-)

Ianmac

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 16:43:59 +1200

A way back the massive tobacco industry realised that cannabis was a threat. So they organised and paid for "research", the results of which were presented to the American Drug Agency. They decided that the research was sound and declared cannabis to be a banned drug. So now many decades…

Moz

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 16:43:34 +1200

I can see why you'd leave out alcohol and tobacco

Plus it makes the graphs easier to draw, no need for a break in the axis or a log scale.

The whole "cause of death" thing is complex. Still, better here than in the US where "death associated with cannibis…

Alfie

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 16:26:28 +1200

Silly question... who is the report's author, Dr Michael McFadden of the "McFadden Consultancy". Google doesn't turn up anything in NZ for either the man or the company.

Alfie

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 16:03:14 +1200

…ate more than the recommended amount and ended up jumping off a balcony?
So the cause of death was almost certainly injuries caused by the fall. Or at least the bit at the bottom where he stopped falling. If the kid had instead downed a bottle of Jack Daniels, I…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 15:28:20 +1200

...didn’t feel I could usefully respond to its requirement to score each drug
Can you get them all at the same place?
:- )
But seriously, without personal experience of each drug and its effects on you or others around you, where could you start to 'rate them' on 'harms'…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 15:06:19 +1200

I can see why you'd leave out alcohol and tobacco, essentially you avoid a fight with both those lobby groups and there are other organisations dealing with those already.

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 13:28:18 +1200

Depends on what you mean by "die". There are those (represented heavily in the nuclear industry) that consider that unless you're on the ground twitching within minutes of being exposed to their substance, then no foul.

OTOH, it seems unlikely that inhaling any kind of smoke from burning organic material…

Alfie

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 13:16:28 +1200

While ignoring alcohol and tobacco and lumping synthetic cannabinoids in with cannabis shows poor judgement in an academic study, I’m more than a little surprised by table six on page 21 which records 32 (presumably NZ) deaths per year from cannabinoids.

Seriously? I’ve always understood that nobody has died from…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 12:00:03 +1200

eventually didn’t feel I could usefully respond to its requirement to score each drug

And I don’t see how many people could do so, in an objective fashion.

The only way you could do it would, as a specialist in the field, be to sit down and do a literature…

Public Address

Fri, 08 Apr 2016 12:00:03 +1200

Discussion from blog post.