Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Labour's Fiscal Plan: Explaining without losing?

Michael Homer

Mon, 30 Jun 2014 11:38:44 +1200

The trolley cables are owned by Wellington Cable Car Ltd, which is owned by the city council.

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 30 Jun 2014 08:45:59 +1200

...councils were forced to divest themselves of such things.
Trolley: Madly? Deeply!

;- )

Matthew Poole

Mon, 30 Jun 2014 08:37:48 +1200

So who owns the trolly bus structures those cables are hanging off of?

Probably whatever became of the local energy authority when councils were forced to divest themselves of such things.
The internet cables were originally owned by the council, but CityLink got spun out into a private company.

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 29 Jun 2014 11:53:54 +1200

… and you’d have to say it smelt delicious.
Boom! Tish!

...and you couldn't even see my lips move, could you?

Thank you, thank you,
We're Ventricle Loki
and we're here all Winter & Spring

Tell your friends....
there's pensioner matinees on
Wednesdays, Saturdays and Sundays.
...throw food!

:- )

linger

Sun, 29 Jun 2014 11:30:24 +1200

... and you’d have to say it smelt delicious.

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 29 Jun 2014 11:25:16 +1200

killer bites...
...they’re mostly fibre optic which really doesn’t smelt so well.
imagine a fibre-optic / mozzarella hybrid,
at least there'd be an upside
when your data was toast...

Matthew Poole

Sun, 29 Jun 2014 11:15:17 +1200

wellington Regional council is going to leave the city link inter web wires up, after the trolley bus wires get sent away to smelter.

The internet cables aren't owned by the council, for one thing. And for another, they're mostly fibre optic which really doesn't smelt so well.

Steve Barnes

Sun, 29 Jun 2014 10:29:38 +1200

Oh, sorry Steven, I meand Trhaed.
(tee hee, he will never notice :-D )

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 29 Jun 2014 09:06:38 +1200

the dig-it-all era...
...cloud computing is powered by coal...
...The ICT ecosystem now approaches 10% of global power generation.
that's the pits,
keep it seamly!
:- )

and lest we forget...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpFHTYBV37Y

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 29 Jun 2014 08:54:42 +1200

give 'em enough trope...
...called simply "The Machine
That's just plain asking for trouble!

Steve Barnes

Sat, 28 Jun 2014 23:19:42 +1200

You mean This mean machine?
HP plans to launch memristor, silicon photonic computer within the decade. Electrons, photons, and ions will work together to revolutionize computing.
;-)
Not that I am trying Tram-ple on the thread.

Rich of Observationz

Sat, 28 Jun 2014 18:06:58 +1200

HP.

The company that made some of the first usable desktops, had a reputation for making top quality kit, had a chance to be the original Apple when employee Steve Wozniak offered them his design, still mainstreamed the laser printer and produced fairly reasonable server hardware and finally pretty much…

Steve Barnes

Sat, 28 Jun 2014 15:55:23 +1200

just realized I was derailing this thread.
I see what you did there. ;-)

Steve Barnes

Sat, 28 Jun 2014 15:39:12 +1200

If you only tax realised gains, then you are basically advantaging people who choose not to sell, and distort the market accordingly.Nobody but the scaremongers are talking about taxing unrealised gains, the same scaremongers who complain about increased top tier taxation as if it applied to every cent earned (or…

Matthew Poole

Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:23:44 +1200

businesses that aren’t in the business of trading commercial property

Businesses that are in that business, of course, are already subject to CGT on their transactions.

nzlemming

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 23:52:31 +1200

And also, consider this: they are allegedly going to buy 60 new hybrid buses,

Which, incidentally, haven't been invented yet. Insanity.

BenWilson

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 20:36:43 +1200

Here is Scott Sumner on the issue explaining it no doubt much better than I am.

Not really. In his explanation thrifty brother gets to be a lot richer than spendthrift brother. He does exactly the same work, but gets 96k to spend instead of 60k. It just happens to…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 18:02:42 +1200

If you don't stand up and say to IRD: "yes, I bought this rental property with the intention of selling it at a profit and my business is to do this repeatedly" then you don't pay a penny in tax on those "accidental" capital gains.

It's even on the website…

Swan

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 17:42:10 +1200

That type of activity is more properly defined as labour income. And in NZ it would be taxed as income so it is not currently untaxed.

Brent Jackson

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 16:56:26 +1200

In Scott's example he equates the profit made on investment with inflation. This is clearly not correct. As Ben stated above, buying a house for a borrowed $1m and selling it the following year for $1.1m will yield an untaxed profit. There is no deferred consumption. There is merely a…

tussock

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 16:53:07 +1200

It is double taxation on the same income no matter who is paying it
That's a specious argument. Everything is double or triple or more taxation because money really does circulate. When I spend money in a shop I've been taxed and then they pay GST, and then the wages…

Swan

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 15:35:38 +1200

http://www.economist.com/economics/by-invitation/guest-contributions/proper-tax-rate-capital-income-zero

Here is Scott Sumner on the issue explaining it no doubt much better than I am.

Cheers

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 15:22:31 +1200

And also, consider this: they are allegedly going to buy 60 new hybrid buses, which will be a good half a mil each, that's $30 million. The trolley wiring has been half replaced already – they're scrapping all of that at a cost of maybe $30mil. A lot of the…

Swan

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 15:16:26 +1200

"That doesn’t make sense. If you sell, realizing the gain, you won’t have a future income from the asset because you sold it."

The tax will still be paid. It is double taxation on the same income no matter who is paying it. Ultimately the end consumer will be paying…

JonathanM

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 14:44:27 +1200

Personally I prefer a land tax. After all, in most of the places with housing shortage, the majority of the cost is in the land, not the house upon it. Further, by occupying land, a business, homeowner, farmer etc. is depriving others of revenue from and enjoyment of that land.…

BenWilson

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 14:40:43 +1200

If you only tax realised gains, then you are basically advantaging people who choose not to sell, and distort the market accordingly.

It's a distortion worth wearing, though. Eventually, they sell. The longer they wait, the higher the tax (because the higher the profit). And is "it distorts the market"…

Swan

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 13:21:31 +1200

"As in, why should income be treated differently depending on whether it comes from a home sale or business sale or a salary or a farm sale or dividends or wherever else?"

A few arguments spring to mind, though I am not an expert. The first is you either tax…

DexterX

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 12:56:21 +1200

Insane.

Luke Williamson

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 10:26:58 +1200

Bang on Dexter! I was just asking Russell if he could, on his new telly programme, ask Patrick Gower why/when he became such a John Key fan boy. The mainstream media sell who they like, then poll themselves and present their results as gospel, and the unquestioning masses who watch…

DexterX

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 10:05:31 +1200

A capital gain tax is dead in the water – it will hurt reneters.

I don't think it really matters what Labour's message or policy positions are – from the Liu donation carry on as reported in the Herald and as trumpeted by Duncan (oath I'm really stupid) Garner a…

izogi

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 08:00:16 +1200

What I’d like to see the media doing to everyone, is not just transcribing the claimed benefits (or drawbacks) of any policy but foregrounding the assumptions that inevitably go into arriving at them and putting them into context.

Policy schmolicy. I want my priority prime-time political analysis to keep me…

izogi

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 07:53:43 +1200

The capital gains tax has been sold as a means of directing investment away from residential property. But the tax will apply to 100% of the commercial property market, 100% of industry, shares, agriculture etc, and only about a third of the residential property market.

Does it matter? I know…

Deborah

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 07:34:57 +1200

There are a number of reasons for introducing a CGT, Swan, including having another tool for slowing down housing prices in places like Auckland. It's one tool among a number there ie. no one is expected a CGT be the sole solution for Auckland housing problems.

And it's just one…

Deborah

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 07:31:11 +1200

I’m not sure what the plan is wrt farms. If the farmer/owner lives on the house on the farm does that make it their primary residence and thus immune to CGT

The usual thing with a CGT worldwide is to exempt the family home. On a farm, that means that…

Sacha

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 07:06:55 +1200

many farmers currently rely on (untaxted) capital gain in their land value as their main profit stream, leveraged against to the hilt. Expect them to fight a CGT tooth and nail.

Euan Mason

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 06:05:31 +1200

Thanks FletcherB. Couldn't have said it better myself.

FletcherB

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 23:39:09 +1200

How much of…

Brent Jackson

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 23:38:26 +1200

But businesses don't buy property to make untaxed profits, they buy it to have somewhere to run their business (without being at the whim of a landlord). I expect a CGT would have neglible effect on businesses that aren't in the business of trading commercial property. I'm not sure what…

Swan

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 22:16:05 +1200

"oyce appeared to be saying that what was wrong with the proposed capital gains tax was that it didn't apply to all houses. Yet his party won't implement that solution across any houses."

The capital gains tax has been sold as a means of directing investment away from residential property.…

Kumara Republic

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 18:59:37 +1200

I would like to see a party of the Left respond to the tired, old "tax and spend" cliche with "Well, yes, we are going to tax people, we're going to pool all of the money gathered from the taxes, and we are going to use it to build a…

Paul Williams

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 18:14:28 +1200

I thought Parker was excellent this morning, Joyce got flustered and resorted to muttering disconsolately in the background...

I'll have to listen to it because when I occassionally check out recent Question Times I generally think he fails to make meaningful points in preference for technical matters that don't cut…

Carol Stewart

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 17:55:39 +1200

I thought Parker was excellent this morning,

I thought he was also excellent on the TV news last night in responding to the bottle of wine story. Calm and authoritative.

Bart Janssen

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:35:44 +1200

Could you explain how this is done Bart?

Bearing in mind I am not a tax accountant (huge sigh of relief) my understanding is that trusts will attract the top tax rate on the assumption that those benefiting from trusts are doing so to avoid paying the top rate of…

artig

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:31:02 +1200

Perhaps someone could explain why "borrow and spend" or "sell assets and spend" is preferable to "tax and spend".

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:29:19 +1200

Essentially, the $150k mark means anyone bitching about an extra couple of percent tax on earnings over their $150k really does need to check their privilege.

What I’d like to see the media doing to everyone, is not just transcribing the claimed benefits (or drawbacks) of any policy but foregrounding…

Andrew C

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:18:35 +1200

And nailing trusts at the same time seems perfectly reasonable since most folks use trusts as a means of avoiding tax, including most MPs.

Could you explain how this is done Bart?

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:04:38 +1200

Joyce was simply rude on Morning Report, and he clutched at straws when challenged by Parker.
I thought Parker was excellent this morning, Joyce got flustered and resorted to muttering disconsolately in the background...

Chris Waugh

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:00:54 +1200

Bart Janssen

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 13:46:07 +1200

My response was "well I don't mind paying a little extra tax to put through the policies after all as far as I can tell I'm rich" and then I realised "holy crap I'm not even close to being taxed anything extra!"

Essentially, the $150k mark means anyone bitching about…

tony j ricketts

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 13:40:59 +1200

"In a remarkable exchange on Morning Report today, Steven Joyce seemed fairly determined not to let that happen."

I rarely agree with Joyce, especially when Espiner is one-sidedly chairing a debate, but he seemed to be arguing for Capital Gains to include the family home. Exemptions make it easier for…

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 13:25:39 +1200

Well, Labour actually managed to competently release a policy without the leader and/or relevant spokesperson needing to “clarify” matters a few hours later.

So credit where due and keep it up, say I. The policy is probably neither as terrible or totally amazeballs as any of the usual suspects would…

Ken Double

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 13:22:13 +1200

English has really struggled to make Labour's economic policies sound looney or dangerous. He and Key both claimed that they rescued the country from imaginary deficits. Labour have more problems than Iraq right now but a lack of coherent, imaginative economic policies is NOT one of them.

Tom Semmens

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 13:12:29 +1200

National Ministers are used to spouting unchallenged talking points to fawning presenters in soft interviews. Joyce thought he was doing a routine he said/she said until Espiner pretty much ambushed him by keeping Parker in the studio.

Since refusing to debate anything with anyone in a serious forum has been…

Ianmac

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 13:08:14 +1200

A weird Joyce being Joyceless and blustery. It almost sounded as though they are worried.
I wonder if the twists and turns of the English response will be highlighted as much as the Cunliffe dolphin switch?

Euan Mason

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 12:57:49 +1200

Joyce was simply rude on Morning Report, and he clutched at straws when challenged by Parker. Joyce appeared to be saying that what was wrong with the proposed capital gains tax was that it didn't apply to all houses. Yet his party won't implement that solution across any houses. Go…

Russell Brown

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 12:53:23 +1200

Agreed.

Gareth Ward

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 12:50:27 +1200

Well they could start explaining with a much better website/comms – the linked site is fine if you want to wade through fairly detailed economic targets, but neither that or the media release say plainly what it is they are doing?

Public Address

Thu, 26 Jun 2014 12:50:27 +1200

Discussion from blog post.