Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Keeping our heads on "bath salts"

Kumara Republic

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:34:06 +1200

Just wonderin…….can anyone enlighten as to why the NZ media is so largely bereft of any real investigative journalism on drug policy [The Guardian in contrast is on the case] . Is it journalistic ignorance, editorial bias, love of tabloid scaremongering, percieved lack of public interest or all these & more.…

vangam

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 13:41:07 +1200

MDVP is really such a poor substitute for cocaine then in a free drugs market no one would use it.

Yes, in a free drugs market. Unfortunately, the situation in NZ encourages risk and the production of poor substitutes. Soon they'll be crushing up disprin and marketing it as some…

david westcot

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 13:17:26 +1200

Just wonderin.......can anyone enlighten as to why the NZ media is so largely bereft of any real investigative journalism on drug policy [The Guardian in contrast is on the case] . Is it journalistic ignorance, editorial bias, love of tabloid scaremongering, percieved lack of public interest or all these & more.…

BenWilson

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:35:00 +1200

I've tried MDPV. Russell's erowid selection is spot on, from my experience. It's strong at first, tapers fast, which encourages continual redosing, and has a fucking awful comedown. I chucked the leftover.

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:34:11 +1200

Hey David, see that button on the right of your keyboard marked ?

You can use it to break your thoughts into paragraphs. Makes them more readable.

Russell Brown

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:25:53 +1200

Thanks Ned Flanders.

Erowid experience reporters generally are not Ned Flanders types, at all. There was one report in that vault I thought didn’t ring true, but I tend to trust the editors to filter out bogus accounts.

Secondly, if MDVP is really such a poor substitute for cocaine then…

Scott Chris

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:04:03 +1200

But a notable proportion of the erowid experience reports on MDVP are strikingly bad.

Couple of thoughts on that wee anecdote:

Firstly it doesn't ring true. Has the smell of the social engineer all over it. (a more subtle approach than claiming angel dust makes one think one can fly…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:42:02 +1200

Do you test the nurofen you buy for your sore back? Otoh, does anyone have a test kit that will tell them exactly what’s in their pills and a powders now? No one does. We just have to suck it and see.
Russell, I don't take nurofen, could be bad…

andin

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 08:42:43 +1200

The market, if allowed, would select the best drugs.
The market?.....oh! you mean people.
Well there's your problem.

david westcot

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 00:16:50 +1200

Great to see some real journalism in this area – media coverage is commonly worse than pathetic or as with the bath salts beat up – reefer-madness redux! Bottom line for a rational discourse [ a what ??!!! says john Key ] is the concept of evidence -base & relative harms…

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 22:24:10 +1200

Because its effects are weak and short-lived – it is an incredibly underwhelming experience. Hence the need to keep doing it.

If that’s your experience, fair enough. But a notable proportion of the erowid experience reports on MDVP are strikingly bad.

This one:

My g/f and I went through 1.5gms…

vangam

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 20:16:36 +1200

MDVP’s main problem seems to be the tendency to compulsive redosing ...
Because its effects are weak and short-lived – it is an incredibly underwhelming experience. Hence the need to keep doing it.

People have been trying to duplicate the effects of coke, smack, acid and ecstasy over the years…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 20:04:06 +1200

to have and to hold...
Users become overwhelmed with
a sense of well-being and safety...
so just remember folks
as we've said before
only users, lose drugs...

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 19:32:08 +1200

Without a test kit on hand , regulation wont ensure that MDMA is that or is MDA that,
Is that coke , crystal meth or is that speed, ephedrine? Is that speed really now poor mans coke. How can one tell.?

Do you test the nurofen you buy for your…

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 19:26:05 +1200

Thing is, if all drugs were legal people wouldn’t need to resort to sniffing propane or suffer the allegedly horrendous come down wrought by ‘bath salts’. (not to mention the apocryphal sanguinary munchies….)

MDVP’s main problem seems to be the tendency to compulsive redosing, which is always going to end…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 18:48:27 +1200

One mans trash is another mans treasure.
Without a test kit on hand , regulation wont ensure that MDMA is that or is MDA that,
Is that coke , crystal meth or is that speed, ephedrine? Is that speed really now poor mans coke. How can one tell.?
It will…

Scott Chris

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 18:08:47 +1200

I don’t think that degree of regulatory action is culturally possible in case of alcohol.

Yes alcohol is preciousss and we wants it my preciousss.

Thing is, if all drugs were legal people wouldn’t need to resort to sniffing propane or suffer the allegedly horrendous come down wrought by ‘bath…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:15:52 +1200

In my view, it's highly likely that no drug (well, maybe caffeine) will get through the new process.

A doctor or pharmacist could clarify here, but my understanding is that the licencing process for new 'medical' pharmaceuticals balances risk and benefit, so that a new drug for terminal cancer can…

Martin Lindberg

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:05:26 +1200

Wouldn't be very helpful to have a web site sharing lots of people's experiences and info on the wide range of stuff out there now?

Erowid

Richard Aston

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:02:52 +1200

Russell's outline of the risks of MDPV got me to thinking around the importance of having real and unbiased information on drugs, especially recreational drugs.
Wouldn't be very helpful to have a web site sharing lots of people's experiences and info on the wide range of stuff out there now?…

Tom Beard

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 16:01:24 +1200

And I honestly don’t think supermarkets are where under-age liquor sales are happening.

But think of the messages you're sending by selling booze at supermarkets! People might get the warped idea that wine and beer go well with food.

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:32:08 +1200

So the black market supplies quality controlled drugs?

No, the opposite. The only reliable means of quality control is regulation. Like we do for food.

In my opinion there should be more emphasis placed upon personal liability (seller) and personal choice (consumer).

It’s just that you have rather less chance…

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:25:15 +1200

Meanwhile you have to ask the question – How did Russell know?

Christ. They're throwing it at everything now, aren't they?

With all the usual guff:

Today police said they believed McMurdo, who has previously been charged with growing cannabis, was dealing MDVP known as "bath salts" at the time…

Scott Chris

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:22:27 +1200

If you want no regulation or quality control of drugs, that’s up to you.

So the black market supplies quality controlled drugs? In my opinion there should be more emphasis placed upon personal liability (seller) and personal choice (consumer).

However that doesn’t mean no regulation. I’m in favour of a…

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:20:09 +1200

Anyway, I'm not saying that the new regime is perfect, or that it can't be messed up by politicians, but it's better than randomly banning everything that pops its head up.

I think the big problem is going to be the MoDA as it stands. It would be stupid to…

Ray Gilbert

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:18:19 +1200

Still remember that broadcasting in the UK. True television gold

Meanwhile you have to ask the question – How did Russell know?

Martin Lindberg

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:13:49 +1200

I mean, we are a real country with a proper government who are presided over by the Queen of England, for God’s sake, not some loud foreign chap with a penchant for to much gold braid on his uniform

Not like the Netherlands or Portugal you mean?

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:05:18 +1200

But it is quite another for a respectable, first world, English speaking nation tightly woven in the globalised Anglosphere to suddenly start openly and legally processing and attractively packaging the stuff up for frank recreational consumption on the weekend.

The site I linked to offers next-day delivery (by the kilo…

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:50:53 +1200

My money’s on Peter Dunne to be the first politician to try to make political capital of out this.

Oh, he has, already. The "reverse the onus of proof" angle is basically what's got this through — Dunne et al can grandstand on promising to keep us all safe. But…

Tom Semmens

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:47:39 +1200

The point isn’t that the ability to import these analogues (or the real McCoy) may be possible now. A regulated trade for legal purposes clearly exists for something like ketamine. The point is it is one thing for a bunch of common gangsters in the quasi-state of Montenegro to operate…

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:31:53 +1200

We’ve all heard of the silk road carry on, how chuffed would our friends overseas be when some dude shows up selling mail order class B and C drugs legally from a .co.nz address? After they recovered from fainting the Americans would probably fire a cruise missile at his warehouse,…

Grant McDougall

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:18:46 +1200

My money's on Peter Dunne to be the first politician to try to make political capital of out this.

(Woo-hoo ! This is my first post on PA in a few months after my PC died and I've splashed out on a laptop. It's nice to be back).

Tom Semmens

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:18:19 +1200

Have you read the policy? It’s a substantial advance on what we’ve had.

It is clear what the recommendation that dare not speak it’s name is from the regulatory impact statement. But the idea that New Zealand might actually start allowing people to legally manufacture MDMA or cannabis analogues as…

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:05:25 +1200

End result – little Jonny’s gonna take a trip to the tinny house rather than buy legal synthetic pot. Advance? Not in my book.

If you want no regulation or quality control of drugs, that's up to you. But personally I'd prefer to know what I'm taking and that it's…

Robert Wilson

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:02:38 +1200

FWIW This story on NPR implies the term "bath salts" is even less well defined than you pointed out, and makes enacting and enforcing any controls seem virtually impossible (at least according to US drug legislation).

Aidan

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 13:51:53 +1200

Cor lummy! When I were a lad bath salts were something you bought for Mother's Day so she could bung them on the side of the bath and then throw them out 7 years later.

Are bath salts now on the endangered species list with Crème de menthe and sweetened…

Scott Chris

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 13:49:50 +1200

Have you read the policy? It’s a substantial advance on what we’ve had.

No I haven't. Correct me if I'm wrong that it still doesn't amount to selective prohibition.

End result – little Jonny's gonna take a trip to the tinny house rather than buy legal synthetic pot. Advance? Not…

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 13:38:55 +1200

Another one, hot off the press:

Over the weekend, another incident occurred in the slew of brutal "zombie apocalypse" attacks. The 22-year-old Jeremiah Haughee's cannibalistic behavior was initially blamed on designer drug "bath salt" use, but experts say this may not be the case, according to the Examiner.

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:51:53 +1200

Perhaps the new regulatory regime for psychoactive substances will break New Zealand out of this vicious cycle.

Crikey Russell, I wouldn’t have picked you as being a passive advocate for prohibitionary policy.

Have you read the policy? It’s a substantial advance on what we’ve had. It provides for the regulated…

Scott Chris

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:34:38 +1200

Perhaps the new regulatory regime for psychoactive substances will break New Zealand out of this vicious cycle.

Crikey Russell, I wouldn't have picked you as being a passive advocate for prohibitionary policy.

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:24:00 +1200

I have just one response to the bath salts ‘epidemic’:

Not quite a comparison, given that MDPV is actually real and fairly nasty. But yeah, merrily attributing any difficult behaviour to a drug that may not even be here is extremely unhelpful.

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:22:01 +1200

if I had a choice over what substance they were going to take I would prefer it to be MDMA or marijuana than whatever toxic garbage is currently available by dint of having not yet been prohibited.

Yes. That's the point.

Tom Semmens

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:13:14 +1200

Given that our Prime Minister has decided that big tobacco is going to make the decision on plain packaging of cigarettes for us, the chances of getting any meaningful reform past the MP for Hawaii and the DEA are zero to none.

Steve Barnes

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:08:52 +1200

The next "Evil Drug" ® to appear on the Radar Screen of Responsible Reporting I predict will be "Cotton Wool". Users become overwhelmed with a sense of well-being and safety, that the Powers That Be are Magnificent in their Munificence and that Peter Dunne's hair looks cool.

mic weevil

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:55:48 +1200

It's actually a huge step to permit the sale of a psychoactive substance that has no recognised therapeutic use — but which people simply wish to take — but I think it's the only sensible way forward.

As a parent – recognising my child will quite possibly experiment with drugs…

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:52:05 +1200

When did we get on to coffee?
” – )

Well, quite.

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:49:09 +1200

Fizz Ed?
It’s actually a huge step to permit the sale of a psychoactive substance that has no recognised therapeutic use – but which people simply wish to take
When did we get on to coffee?
" – )

Steve Barnes

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:35:50 +1200

But what if the children get hold of bath salts? They could end up.
I once heard of a man who ate his own head, I hope he was bald, I couldn't stand the idea of eating hair.

Kumara Republic

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:38:34 +1200

I have just one response to the bath salts 'epidemic':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwylBRucU7w

Robyn Gallagher

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:26:41 +1200

All the hype around the ‘bath salts’ drug inspired me to buy some actual real, old-fashioned bath salts. The Warehouse had some on sale. They’re quite nice -a good chilled out buzz and a lot more mellow than your traditional bubble bath experience. And unlike their namesake, I didn’t feel…

Russell Brown

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:13:14 +1200

So what, if anything, is the right approach to allowing people to have fun without harming themselves or others?

The new regulatory regime allows for a novel substance to be declared "low risk" and permitted for sale with restrictions. The political messaging was all around the word "safe", but that…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:01:20 +1200

a poster child for the flaws in the progressive-prohibition model of drug enforcement

So given this and given the problems we face with legal drugs, alcohol in particular, the question becomes "What does work?"

People enjoy the effects of drugs. For some (most?) people, drugs used with some knowledge do…

Public Address

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:01:20 +1200

Discussion from blog post.