Well, Daivd, I've heard Denis Welch say David Farrar "works for the National Party". Which isn't actually true, but never mind.

It's no longer true, but it certainly used to be. And I believe the change in situation is fairly recent. Last election? So while it's not accurate now, it…

Depends what you mean by 'works', I suppose

More to the point, what did Welch mean?

But the Turnbull Library's collection of those journals is awesome

Hocken Collections (courtesy of the foresight and generosity of the good doctor Hocken) has a good collection as well.

Burke is my favourite political philosopher, (although he wouldn't like being called that) but I hadn't noticed this Presbyterian strand in his thought before.

What really amazes me about the famous Speech to the Electors of Bristol is that it was just that. A stump speech that actually assumed the…

This conflict with difficulty makes us acquainted with our object, and compels us to consider it in all its relations. It will not suffer us to be superficial

Burke is my favourite political philosopher, (although he wouldn't like being called that) but I hadn't noticed this Presbyterian strand in his…

Adversity is a severe instructor, set over us by one who knows us better than we do ourselves, as he loves us better too.

Would that be Russell then?

Adversity is a severe instructor, set over us by one who knows us better than we do ourselves, as he loves us better too. He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens…

Did what I wrote translate to print? Well I'll let others be the judge of that. However the piece I filed on that was one of several I wrote on the Peters' issue that day and was designed to form part of a bigger picture.

Fair enough; that puts…

What i value about PA, is the collaborative nature of it. And the self-regulation – no-one gets away with making unsubstantiated, contestable comments.

And I can't speak for anyone else, but even if the discussion on an issue doesn't change my mind, it sure doesn't hurt to be reminded of…

the hybridisation is becoming riskily confusing to the voter

No it isn't. Folks who care enough to seek more information, analysis and discussion already know they've been shortchanged by trad media, mostly by the art of omission.

What i value about PA, is the collaborative nature of it. And the…

but the day the Herald website led with the news that Peters had — gasp! — turned his back on journalists was a silly one. The fact that Peters has been rude to some reporters is not the lead.

That would be the infamous "step" story. I take it?

For…

Also, Fran's flaming The Standard.

That's quite remarkable. How long has The Standard been going for? A year maybe. And all this MSM attention. If that doesn't help drive their readership up nothing will. One reason they get this attention is because, however partisan they are, their articles are so…

I've drooled over the pamphlet collection at the Turnbull Library (part of the original Turnbull bequest, and shipped to Britain to be bound in hard covers and shipped back out) if that counts.

There are thousands of them, and many seemed to me to be on economics. Clearly, anyone could…

Who is an artist?

Who is a musician?

Who is a scientist?

These are different questions from "who is an architect", "who is a doctor", and "who is a lawyer."

As far as the Guardian and its funding go: l pledge $100 this year and every…

When I said this:

One issue: these small papers pay a chargeback to APN for accounting services — and it's several times what those papers would have to pay to just employ an accountant. It seems that APN corporate taps the small assets hard to try…

Rob Hosking's comparison of blogs with the 18th and 19th century grub street/pamphleteering culture is absolutely spot on (I've done academic research into the field, don't you know..).

I've drooled over the pamphlet collection at the Turnbull Library (part of the original Turnbull bequest, and shipped to Britain to be…

The only one who emerged to reply was Lynn Prentice, who took a "poster's opinions are their own, we're a collective but it's not anyone else's fault" line.

And I don't want to jack this into another bash Kiwiblog thread, but I rather doubt anyone at The Standard would take…

I think the fact that Russell et al are happy to use their names on PA and the fact that the quality of both posts and comments is uniformly high are not unconnected.

None of them are political activists. The fact that the gentlefolk who belong to a certain racist…

The Standard stands behind its arguments, it just happens to be an author collective

There've been some recent cracks in that facade though. First when I called "Steve Pierson" and (IIRC) "John A" on their toadying excuse-manufacturing on behalf of their new best friend Winston Peters and his…

but a troll is a troll, and an argument is an argument.

And a hypocrite is a hypocrite, whether pseudonymous or not. Look, in the end we're just going to have to agree to disagree here, but I think folks who want to lecture others on professional or personal integrity…

certainly come across some folks who are sharks on line and absolute pussy cats in person. Funny that.

i think they also get a rush from seeing their non de plume in 'print', hence the frequency of posting.

but a troll is a troll, and an argument is an argument.

No, but without presuming to speak for O'Sullivan, I find it rather galling having my integrity questioned by people who don't even have the guts to sign their names at the bottom of their froth.

Used to happen to me all the time on Kiwiblog ...

Invective ain't the same…

Used to happen to me all the time on Kiwiblog ...

Try re-writing in the present tense, and welcome to the club. Though I don't think you've been accused of "supporting a paedophile" by someone whose standard m.o. on being caught out in a blatant lie is to increase the…

No, but without presuming to speak for O'Sullivan, I find it rather galling having my integrity questioned by people who don't even have the guts to sign their names at the bottom of their froth.

Used to happen to me all the time on Kiwiblog ...

I think it was more an amused observation than a complaint.

So was I. Really, remember this is someone who bitch-slapped Winston Peters good and hard when he was stupid enough to accuse her of fabricating quotes. And I do find it rather delightful watching the Standard folks carrying on…

Some people seemed to make a big deal of it with certain members of the exclusive brethren church.

surely donation scandals and publically stating your views are different things?

what is it with people freaking out about non de plumes? does not having a target mean that that content of someone's argument is weaker?

Anonimity, cowardice, non-verifiable sources, blah blah. It's a very common complaint directed at the people who use the intertubes. Ironically, the practice of the unsigned…

what is it with people freaking out about non de plumes?

Some people seemed to make a big deal of it with certain members of the exclusive brethren church.

let me answer that for you.

no.

I think it was more an amused observation than a complaint.

It was. I do like the fact that Fran engages, though, even if she's only ever complaining about being criticised.

Oh, diddums. :)

I think it was more an amused observation than a complaint.

Also, Fran's flaming The Standard.

Oh, diddums. :)

Also, Fran's flaming The Standard.

And if we want examples of media unprofessionalism, here's the Herald's Fran O'Sullivan talking chummily about National's secret agenda.

Oh, you mean when she's not slagging off Key as "Helen Clark in drag"? Sorry to tell you this, Idiot/Savant, but there just might be a little laptop interrogation going on…

real information, reports of government depts, state owned companies, etc. Even the bloody Budget bilaterals are posted on the Treasury's web site within a few weeks of the Budget. It’s all there if you want to find it.

That means the other skills will become more important.

indeed, the people…

A "major policy shift [National] talks about behind closed doors". Isn't this the sort of thing journalists should be reporting on, rather than burying? Or is the purpose of the media now to obfuscate and deceive rather than inform?

Didn't Clifton two or three weeks ago remark that political reporters…

Proportionately this is obviously out-of-whack and would be untenable if an incoming National government does tackle the major…

Until there is a blogger who wishes to cover Parliament in a full-time capacity I suspect that will be the best avenue to take. (on that note is there currently a full-time blogger who could cover Parliament full time?)

No. The nearest thing would have been Keith Ng when…

I wonder what effect it had on their traffic?

No doubt Clifton could point to WhaleOil's blog as an indication that a blog is a much worse forum than a newspaper.

Only if you don't consider Granny's "Your Views" to be an extension of the paper. After all, some of the hysterical comments in YV drive and/or are driven…

I get the impression that this thread has fallen into the same trap that 'we' would accuse the mainstream media of generalising about blogs. No doubt Clifton could point to WhaleOil's blog as an indication that a blog is a much worse forum than a newspaper.

Clifton raised a set…

A blog is a better forum than a newspaper or TV.

I get the impression that this thread has fallen into the same trap that 'we' would accuse the mainstream media of generalising about blogs. No doubt Clifton could point to WhaleOil's blog as an indication that a blog is…

And Craig, many thanks for the Patti Lupone video. I'd never heard of her before, and isn't that a great voice she has?

Certainly does, Jackie. Even if you're not a wretched show queen, you've got to admire someone who, this year, took on the considerable shade of uber-diva Ethel…

NZ's MSM was now controlled by so few, with so little competition that I went into mourning for an independent fourth estate. I even missed the UK redtops.

My opinion exactly Cindy. The major newspapers in NZ have effectively no competition. The DomPost doesn't compete wth the Herald and the…

As a relative "newbie" to NZ media (well not new, but things change a lot when you're out of the country for 13 years) I came home to find the MSM strangulated by its owners and editors with what little analysis there was…

They'll be there for sure. A poorly-sourced story can very easily flash around the world and wind up in our papers. Medical research is the ostensible topic of many of them.

Ain't that the truth brother. As a biomedical researcher every such thing I see in the MSM makes me…

Absolutely ,your ancient. In the 90's Hard News was a friday morning current affairs highlight on a radio station that was blitzing a lot…

Huge point, that one. It's where the Guardian's Comment is Free blog venture most often falls down — because those fancy public-school-educated Guardian journalists very rarely get themselves mucky by joining in their own discussions.

That is less and less true Russell, though often the responses are later in the…

And I might give the SST another chance if Ruth Laughensen [sic] applies for and gets the editor's job — an actual journalist who's been doing some very solid work might be a good influence at the top.

Yes, yes, oh god yes!! (sorry about that). But the…

That was all over the blog world flaming and then done deal before NZ MSM had even started reporting on it.

Fran O'Sullivan excusing the non reportage of Helen…

yeah... i'm inclined to think we still listen to experts. the diff is that now we get to choose them.

I can't help feeling though that I get more illumination from every thread here than I did from a season of The Ralston Group.

Clifton should read Flat Earth News…

I do remember the anguish in the Press Gallery at the thought of having to admit a Newsroom representative, followed by…

I just don't think most New Zealanders look kindly on the security services being used by the government of the day to spy on its political enemies, especially when they're elected members of Parliament. Helen Clark certainly took severe exception to the insinuation.

I'm not surprised she got rather tetchy…

But why Joanne Black on Media 7?

Yeah, when my eye sees her page – which I don't read – my heart feels that someone's stolen my Listener.

I know I have to get over it – I'm searching for meaning on the internet – curling up with a mag…

The thought of someone so utterly incapable of validating sources working in a role around privacy law is somewhat terrifying.

Hum... well, in Geoffrey Palmer's position I'd be having any research over Ms. Brett's signature very carefully peer-reviewed. I certainly think any law changes around privacy law, name suppression and…

Which I actually regard as the greater editorial crime. The SIS 'Operation Leaf' story was the work of a dedicated fabulist — which isn't to say they shouldn't have rumbled it — and it's the kind of thing every journalist dreads.

The age of consent story was just a big,…

This involves extensive community consultation.”

I am curious about the fact that Palmer emphasises the fact that the value of a journalist/editor is because the project has extensive community consultation.

Leaving aside Cate Brett's merits (which I have no strong view on), I thought the emphasis in the press release…

"Titbits" please. Not "tidbits".

And not by Jane (yet), but where have all the fire engines…

Clifton should read Flat Earth News to get a handle on what newspapers in the UK are like ... Helen Sissons at AUT School of Journalism is doing similar research here – it's going to be interesting to see the parallels.

They'll be there for sure. A poorly-sourced story can…

This is the same woman who ran the "the SIS are spying on teh maaaris" story with such gay abandon and never mind the facts.

Was she not also the woman that oversaw the "Labour party are pro-pedophile" around the time of the review of age of consent laws?

Which…

*yawn* How tiresome. How 1990s.

FFS – Doesn't Clifton understand how corrupt MSM has become? Sure bloggers have a viewpoint (albeit some rather disturbing, vitriolic nonsensical rambling BS) – but then, as Rupert Murdoch said,

every newspaper has…

In 1990, Richard Long became the editor

Ahh, the stories I could tell you. And I wasn't even a journo.

This is the same woman who ran the "the SIS are spying on teh maaaris" story with such gay abandon and never mind the facts.

Was she not also the…

We were told things and that was it, by experts. Clifton was a big part of that and it must be terrifying for the likes of her and Ralston to see that slip away so much as it has.

yeah... i'm inclined to think we still listen to experts.…

I think it's because whereas sport was once treated as News and reported as such, now it's treated as part of the Entertainment industry.

And isn't that exactly what it is?

But why Joanne Black on Media 7? She already has ample (too much?) access to the public discourse, and really has nothing much to say (and if she mentions her bloody house renovations again....!!!)

Couldn't agree more – unless you're looking for a dull background to make the others shine.

In the late 80s and early 90s, the Dom was a champion of MMP and electoral reform. In 1990, Richard Long became the editor and…

whose

who's

It would be remiss not to praise Colin Espiner for his willingness to debate with his commenters.

And too one of my favourite bloggers, Glenn Greenwald on Salon (where he went when headhunted from a blogspot site), whose always found in the comments section taking to task or, often too,…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVsD0rltRr8

In olden days a glimpse of stocking
Was looked on as something shocking,
But now, God knows,
Anything…

At the recent National Party conference, Labour activist Clinton Brown was refused accreditation – and the right even to enter the venue – but National activist David Farrar was happily installed at the official media bench. It was the National Party’s call, obviously,…

Seriously, folks who think The Listener has been ruined by a pack of Tory Stepford Wives aren't going to be talked in off that particular ledge by anyone. Certainly not me.

Agree in principle, but I'm struck by the hubris here. That the top political commentator in the country (am…

"... opinion pieces are substituted for reporting and analysis – and everyone has an opinion."

And it's not just in politics. Thanks to Stephen Jones there are now a host of copy-cat rugby rants in the MSM expecting to be taken seriously. Journos as talk back shock-jocks.

I think it's…

Craig? I'm waiting ...

Part of me wants to dance naked in the rain with joy. (And I might give the SST another chance if Ruth Laughensen [sic] applies for and gets the editor's job — an actual journalist who's been doing some very solid work might be a good…

Isn't that true of all political reporting? They're reporting on the game, not the policy/outcomes...

Not really – we still get a lot of straight reporting of what's going on in Parliament and what the parties are saying. But game-commentary is pretty dominant, precisely because its easier and cheaper than…

the signs are from the US that getting paid: (a) isn't the determinant of whether or not you're a blogger, and (b) doesn't mean you get to eat.

i read that. lots of bloggers move to 'professional' only to have their creativity dry up, their motivation sapped by word limits/demands,…

(*Timing Ranapia's response starting... now)

Sorry, love, just had lunch — no room for bait. :) Seriously, folks who think The Listener has been ruined by a pack of Tory Stepford Wives aren't going to be talked in off that particular ledge by anyone. Certainly not me.

It would be…

It could well ruin their careers.

Some careers could use being ruined. The MSM gladly employs the services of Michael Laws, for god's sake, and we're worried about bloggers lowering the level of discourse?

since she deals more in political gossip than empirical facts.

Isn't that true of all political reporting? They're reporting on the game, not the policy/outcomes...

CATE BRETT ACCEPTS LAW COMISSION APPOINTMENT

Cate Honore Brett has resigned from the editorship of the Sunday Star-Times to take up a role with the Law Commission.

Brett, who has a long-standing interest in media law, has been hired as a senior policy and media adviser to…

Clifton's game-focused style of commentary, since she deals more in political gossip than empirical facts.

her description of the public service as 'an ocean of b-listers' raised a few hackles for its brazen partisan-ness.

that the late lamented Keith Ng

I can confirm that he's not dead.

Nevertheless, I am in mourning.

Properly trained, paid and resourced journalists breaking well written, well researched, good stories will almost almost blow the enthusiastic online amateur out of the water. The trouble is, they don't exist anymore. Instead, opinion pieces are substituted for reporting and analysis – and everyone has an opinion.

At which point…

So she's a kind of reporter I would say, even if she doesn't break stories.

And credit where due: she does sometimes do very good factual analysis.

But I'm not really down with the idea the only reporters qualify as journalists. Commentary and analysis are also journalistic skills, and I'm…

(*NB: I only came across PoMo as abbreviation for post-modernism last week, but at least I knew the concept)

You may read my excellent views --- on, say, social welfare or the enduring greatness of Donna Summer's 'I Feel Love' --- and you may well think

ignoring the gaffaw at the first part of that sentence and you get to what all this social media palaver is all about,…

@danyl 'snap'

Heh. Coddington and her weekly regurgitation of cortex-shrinking idiocy is a walking rejoinder to any argument that 'old media' enjoys any moral or intellectual superiority over the blogosphere.

She is a bit of an outlier though so its a bit unfair to keep bringing her up.

I was wondering why so many journalists seem to be scared/bewildered/confused by bloggers and blogging. Because, at its heart, blogging is just writing.

Because most bloggers are doing it for free, on the side of their day job. The reaction is not unlike the reaction of people who make a…

that the late lamented Keith Ng

I can confirm that he's not dead.

Very few bloggers do reportage. But then, neither does Jane Clifton. She's a commentator.

She sits in the parliamentary press gallery though, presumably, and that gives her access to politicians (other than, you know, McCully*) in excess of what she could get by watching the sessions on the telly and…

That's what happens when you pretend to offer a space of discussion, whereas in fact all you can do in such a space is rant, since the authors of the pieces themselves wouldn't be caught dead interacting with their readers.

Huge point, that one. It's where the Guardian's Comment is…

If the term "journalist" is protected in the…

I actually know Jordan's capable of better. I certainly don't think he's going to be running around Hunua hosing down the voters with rhetorical silage.

Quite. You bring up the point that politically identified bloggers need to treat their readers with respect, and do more than simply repeat talking points…

awhile back i did an ego-stroke on RB when i said that he *is* a brand. but i was serious (and not just smoochey-schmoocey) because our new infobesity is pushing us towards trusted information sources.

Or you may distrust me as the occasion demands. That's part and parcel of the…

To be a successful blogger, you just have to be able to write well. Just like being a journalist.

Actually, no. Compared stories in the Herald with the press releases on Scoop recently? The key skil four journalists seems to be being able to use the copy/paste function (to the…

Clifton laments that the hybridisation risks confusing the voter, but let's rewind the clock by about ten years: does she think the New Zealand public was well served by political…

But morally and practically, it’s now the Wild West out there, because we can no longer easily tell where journalism ends and politics begins.

i think, this quote from her is particulary telling. awhile back i did an ego-stroke on RB when i said that he *is* a brand. but…

Very few bloggers do reportage. But then, neither does Jane Clifton. She's a commentator.

Very true. Clifton used to be a journalist, but then so did Deborah Coddington.

I've noticed that some ex-journalists tend to think of themselves as still being journo's LONG after they've ceased to do anything remotely…

Perhaps it helped that in the past, the new media threats to print media were radio and television – audio-visual media. Blogging and the internet is the…

It's pretty easy to take the psis out of the smaller provincial dailies, but they pretty much run on the smell of an oily rag.

They also provide a place for good journalists to kick-off their careers;

Quite. There's something you get from a small publication with a strong editorial…

While I do think the likes of Redbaiter and Tom Semmens really do "believe" the poo they fling around teh interwebz with gay abandon (which just makes them sincere…

the impending demise of the Levin Chronicle, the award-winning local daily that APN is to turn into just another bi-weekly freesheet.

What ??!! The Chronicle was the first paper I ever worked on, after leaving Welly journo school in late '95.

I actually asked in my interview with then-editor David…

Asymmetrical Warfare: Having a biffo with the mainstream media, Keith…

But I do think that journalists can become institutionalised in a number of ways. In political journalist that can manifest as a tendency to report the sizzle over the sausage, and to — yes, I am looking at you Jane — depict it all as a grand, jolly game.

Very…

"partisan flame-baiting" meaning "saying what you stand for"...

Oh, Idiot... could we cut the Sensing Murder bullshit for a moment? I mean the 'dirty Tories don't give a shit about the poor' / 'Liarbore dykeocracy' poo-flinging that does nothing except attract exactly the kind of response it's blatantly trolling for.…

I still remember fondly Karl du Fresne's column in the mid-90s, in which he declared that he didn't trust the internet. I pointed out at the time that was like saying you didn't trust the telephone.

Or movable type. I don't trust or distrust carving knives, but when someone points…

It sometimes is hard to tell which people have a line on the truth and which are just spinning…

Clifton seems taken…

There seems to be an inability to distinguish between the medium and the messenger – to realise that blogging is just a platform, like TV or newspapers, and what matters is what you do with it.

I still remember fondly Karl du Fresne's column in the mid-90s, in which he…

Your presence bears out something I learned very early on about the internet: it provides access to many people who have the attributes for journalism — a sharp mind and a good prose style — but are not in fact journalists.

If journalism is about providing objective information about facts…

In such circumstances, I think it's useful to have a third voice watching the watchers and, where appropriate, nerding it up with facts and figures

Absolutely – and that statement has echoes of this piece I read yesterday in the NYTimes Is John Stewart the Most Trusted Man in America?

But I do think that journalists can become institutionalised in a number of ways.

When I worked for Wellington Newspapers people used to speak approvingly of a since-departed political reporter who'd have himself reassigned to the crime rounds every year or two, to prevent exactly that.

I certainly know that…