That is one I have always had a problem with. It advocates the presumption of profit to be the norm, who knows how many "single mums" the bad kid helped out?. The bro that "merely" looked after his fathers stash got the sort srift, if you…

Which would lead me to think that saving for a rainy day was a pre-requisite to being an upstanding citizen. And that was years before us Europeans invented Jesus, you know,

Most interesting there is that the point of reference is not Plato, Socrates or Aristotle , but a Jesus…

Or maybe some other plummety thing... Like a big Gold brick in an Ocean of debt.

Actually their household incomes are about 50% higher than NZers. When you adjust for living costs and the huge lump of super payment, they're probably worse off than we are.

(Obviously expat bankers and the like make huge dollars, which might explain why people think…

Other currencies are usually favorite choices. Whoever you do the most trade with. In our case, probably the USD, which conveniently also pegs us to the RMB.

The Singaporeans also take 35% of everyone's income into a super fund. They can do…

White men can't save? The East Asian sector of the Human Race had Confucius for a founding thinker... The philosophy of Confucius emphasized personal and governmental morality, correctness…

All issued Singapore dollar currency in circulation is fully backed by international assets to maintain public confidence

So (in theory) all the money is just tokens…

But what could you tie it to?

Thanks Steve, obviously not my decision, there seems to be ample precedent for creativity here:

"Singapore moved towards pegging its currency against a fixed and undisclosed trade-weighted basket of currencies from 1973 to 1985."

leading to…

[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_dollar|Singapore adopted a more market-oriented exchange regime…

Thanks! Nice to hear.

even the US has not one but two of these – a $5800 "standard deduction" ($11,600 if you file with your spouse) and a $3700 "personal exemption" (claimed once each for yourself, your spouse and…

Not at all. Good ideas in there.

Not having to save up week to week or fortnightly to pay utility bills is a weight off minimum wage earners’ minds

Not sure about that. They do have to save up for the entire month to have anything…

People struggling to pay for things for a whole month to teach them discipline.

It’s a slightly different breed of struggle though. The guarantee at least once a month of seeing the kind of money you can shake a stick at, does encourage more ambitious use of one’s income: Not…

It had that effect on me, but only via the school of hard knocks. That's not really the kind of thing I was meaning. People…

Ah, but then the rich guy went out and sold that debt...
Yeah, that works.
NOT.

You got my point then ;-)

Any number of small tinkerings could make a substantial difference to overall competitiveness, general fairness, and economic growth.

I'm not sure if people are still routinely paid fortnightly in NZ but it would seem that monthly payments dramatically enhance peoples' money management abilities.

Like, (I think) most people, I just don't 'get' how…

In Rich's example, she already owed the hotel money, and the payment she got was money owed to her. So the point he's making, that the mere existence of the token that let money move around…

It is a slow day in the small Saskatchewan town of Pumphandle and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody is living on credit.

A tourist visiting the…

Circulation is more important than size, the faster the "money" moves, the more it is worth, think about it. Every time money changes hands it creates something and…

Wish had been longer, always happens at those things. Next time

I talked to you for, like, 30 seconds at the OGB, so I can't really comment :-) I didn't go around introducing myself much, but those few I chatted to were unfailingly friendly and polite – I don't know if…

Feel free to pitch in. What do you think should be changed, if we are to avoid those decades of stagnation? Or do you think…

Onoe could add to the list – bond and capital markets without adequate regulation..

Looking at the size of the money supply and the cash that is actually in circulation is a good place to start and the role…

Cameron's logic: if square pegs don't fit in round holes, then grab a bigger hammer. Such an approach is doomed to fail because it's synonymous with attacking the symptom.

And if anything, Cameron's rhetoric isn't one of cracking the whip, but…

Yup, on Queen St.
Still, more pleasant than Tottenham eh?.
If only people would stop trying to make Auckland a "World Class City" its character could come shining through.

In person, the silence can mean so much more.

Heh. On PAS people often agree so furiously, and disagree so politely, that it can be hard to tell the difference.

Yes, this kind of looting…

I recall hearing about 1990s NZ governments…

History suggests that governments can attack dissidents with helicoptor gunships, or poison gas. But in societies in…

Top chief executives are being paid up to 50 times as much as their average employees – and the gulf between boss and worker is widening.…

History suggests governments may respect that less than you think – easy enough to change law to affect those other pools of money, even nationalise them in the name of some fiscal emergency. Just as it was in the other direction to let the bankers back…

true

Nigerian investments are also a thriving opportunity.

Not really. It's not much like that at all. The money is still your own money, to be used as money, when it you retire, for whatever you want.

I guess I just don't…

This aspect translates to…

Yes, plus: what could possibly go wrong!

This sits nicely alongside what the Nats are looking to do with the food stamp card.

But first check, will your grandchildren also be issued…

I reckon you are arguing the purest theoretical form – which unfortunately like most of what economists say does not actually match the real world.

I actually think nearly everything about capitalist organization is bad. It predicates itself around the value of work, when in fact work…

Bart :"I am through with working. Working is for chumps."
Homer :"Son, I'm proud of you. I was twice your age before I figured that out."

What has always amazed me about the pricing of labour – particularly since the Employment Contracts Act – is that the cost of living, with emphasis on lower wage levels, was not a consideration.

In…

I bet there is also the opposite mix of male to female teachers in the secondary space. I'm not sure why this is or what…

A friend of mine…

I always thought it was a far bigger issue than 'Peter Ellis syndrome'. I suspect there's a strong whiff of 'whaddarya' discouraging prospective male primary teachers.

There are other factors that can make teaching unattractive to men – for example (the comments, more so than the actual post).

They do strike, you know.

(Maybe the ones that do become principals, and make large amounts of extra money from personally enrolling foreign students ).

Not sure. It might. The solution is most likely for the government to simply up the budgets for education. But if men left it because they didn't like working with women, that won't bring them back. If they left just for the money, it might. It probably…

Does it matter?

Nobody here, necessarily, but society does value different work in different ways, and not just through pay rates. Immigrants do the jobs locals don't want because locals see those jobs as being somehow beneath them. It's amazing how essential those jobs often are, though. And then a lot…

That was chronicled in A Day Without A Mexican. Nice concept, mediocre execution though.

And who can forget the telephone…

On which count? Because the bit you quoted is bipartisan – Labour and National have both bought into the idea that we should use interest rates to guarantee a quota of unemployment and control wage inflation and inflation more…

A lot of truth.

But more importantly, it is also why a guaranteed pool of unemployed…

Which is why rightwingers luurrrrve hard times.…

Yup. Every family person, including those who live by themselves.

However, most of us clean our loos because it's civilised to do so (for the next person using same.

Whether they will be persuaded to do it or not is the issue. You know the line about immigrants “doing the jobs that we don’t want to do”? There is some truth in that. Which is why…

Right, but that goes to demand for your services. The higher they can sell your services/products, the higher your demand is. What would lower it would be many other people willing and capable of doing the same job as…

So is law. Let's just accept that pricing of labour is not a rational market.

Heh, I bet it's been done already on some fan site. And nothing will ever top Terry Brooks for the most famous total fantasy book ripoff.

You see I don't think that really holds.…

I'm not sure if that's the cause or the effect, though. It could be "that as the price came down, men deserted it", rather than "as the number of women rose, the price went down". Correlation is a…

One day, some brave scholar is going to go through the Rowling opus-empire
and pick out all the 'borrowings'...

Nowhere near as bad as that. I loved Le Guin's insight that "Ainsetain" from Terra (I presume she was referring to…

Who's sneering?

Or a study of how our culture is shaped by our perception of gender.

Only for books I've read more than 3 times. The Dispossessed is an old favourite. I liked it even more than A Wizard of Earthsea, which was remorselessly ripped off by J K Rowling.

They don't think the same way, thankfully. Society has compassion. The market has only the supply-demand tensions.

A lot of us might agree, for…

O! This could never happen here.
Eh?

Of course it already has happened (there), and since the space/time continuum
contains everything...fictional/factual/projected/rejected...

whether we could ever get to that kind of state/stage.....urrrmmmm. Is another kind of question.

Almost as bad as, say, coercing the top physicists and mathematicians of a…

Yep, and in The Dispossessed she has an admirably fair go at showing the warts and cracks in both sides of her "ambiguous utopia".

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to suggest meaningful alternatives or anything crazy like that – just whining about the status quo :-) In reality I think progressive taxation is probably the best treatment we have for capitalism's…

Are too!

You say "supply and demand", I say "the market", same diff right?

The question is why does the market place its value as…

you watched 'Kenny'? there's the scene where the fancy-pants madams deride him for being the bog man, then later he…

I'm sorry if I've given that impression, I am genuinely not angry. Its just that the 'no value in mindless work' assertion doesn't fit my experience. Maybe my experience wasn't typical. I was…

My point was more that you have to be bright enough to understand your experience and your experience be broad enough to lead to a greater understanding, ie Wisdom.…

This is called "capitalism", no?

Indeed. My thought was how the market value of labour reflects directly on people's perceptions of / assumptions about the character of the labourers. I'm really interested to know if there's a way to change that association.

For all the horrible jobs that people have…

This is called "capitalism", no?

When we expect the value of labour to be determined entirely by the market, then that labour which brings one more information about the market…

Yes, but if at the end of getting there what you do is interchangeable, then it's not about toilet-cleaning – it's about the kinds of activities and relationships that can surround any job.

hack the blog

He can haz dignity of labour naow?

We may have a different notion of 'materially connected'. Most work involves some manner of organisation and people in addition to tasks.

The reason I even brought up the rising number of elderly workers in shit work, in a thread about youth unemployment and welfare, is…

not quite sure where i indicated that there is work that is not.

i think gio arrived where i was with this statement:

the value you find in it is largely ancillary to the work itself – getting on with your workmates, establishing a discipline, having…

Gio is a pussy-cat. Do come by as I still pass colleagues in the halls and still don't know who they…

I guess I was cheaper than a robot. It would have…

Well, let's examine that: you have talked about toilet cleaning, but it seems to me that the value you find in it is largely ancillary to the work itself…

I don't. It's pretty obvious really. If you refuse to accept being told that something horrible is something you should like, you might learn the resolve to refuse…

Having done more than my fair share of crap jobs, I agree with Gio.Some work is mind-numbing (try working in a woollen mill as a hearing person) and some is worker-exploitative & the employer/s deliberately…

I have never suggested that it's a new state of affairs. However, what is relatively new (or rather has…

I agree with this too. I'm not arguing that the kinds of work we are talking about are to be preferred, and that we should not try to make things better. I just think that's its equally dangerous to 'extend to…

i genuinely think you might be looking for an idyll that has not ever existed. there have always been these awful jobs – it's why we compete…

I'm not so sure. I think the two points of view are not asking the same…

to not work is unnatural, and frequently exploitative – absolute monarchy, anyone?

EDIT: actually... you could argue that monarchy is…

I've been meaning to wander down the corridor one of these days to say hello but have yet to muster up the courage. It's bad enough disagreeing with Gio..

I couldn't agree with this more. In fact I thought it was what I was arguing. I wonder if our difference comes from me taking a slightly wider view of 'labour'; one that extends beyond that…

I don't think so. It's important to recognise the dehumanising aspects of work, which – on this I agree with you – long predate capitalism. One…

He has a really shitty job?

Greetings from a fellow Hamiltonian. That makes 4 of us, according to my count.

Saying you are welcome to find a *lack* of meaning in work, but not to extend that to others seems an equally deficient argument.

Not claiming that all work…

I'm not saying that their aren't shitty jobs. Gutting eels was no party, and the lifting involved wrecked my back to the extent that I couldn't go back to it now if I wanted to. But my point…

sure. doesn't mean they need become "useless" though. grumpy old teachers must be able to do something useful.

scare preschoolers perhaps?

me the same with watermelon and kiwifruit

I find the alternative belief actually dangerous. You are welcome to find whatever meaning in the work that you do, but not to extend the idea to others ("there is no mindless work, and to imply that there is would be an…

I didn't eat one for three years after that.

nice

I was thinking more of your paper round, where you yourself say

making accurate estimations of how many papers I could carry, and what the optimal paths for delivery were

If I…

Don't want philosphical distractions to take us away from that sort of question. Suits politicians all too well to ignore trends in youth employment, retirement, poverty, etc.

bet you're really good at spotting the best ones in a vege shop now.

That seems a somewhat sad belief…

I actually read Che as I think he intended (and let's once again NOT have this argument). IOW, when he said "should work" I think he meant "should be allowed to work". It seemed clear from the…

Oh, yes, I forgot to mention my two season stints at thinning…

Oh, then fine. I took "should work" to mean, you know, "should work". If you mean they can keep working if it's their thing, why not. So long as it doesn't get stupid. I've had more…

I didn't think they were good examples. I agree with you: what exactly do you learn from cleaning other peoples shit off porcelain, except that some people really are utter filthpigs?

So what? Plus, that works only for the people who are lucky enough to have a character arc. A lot of people clean toilets all their lives. What is the job…

So I take issue with those as examples. I spent six months picking capsicums in Queensland, and I can think of absolutely nothing about it that wasn't mindless. It didn't even…

Fine: would you kindly point me to the mindful part of cleaning toilets?

I think the idea that we should all take pride in what we do regardless of…

Working up to his elbows in eel guts, in a creche, to top up his benefit…

Depends on your perspective. Rental car customers are seldom repeats, they're holiday makers, probably never going to come back. I made sure the people buying petrol got priority (which was only fair really, you don't expect to have to wait 20 minutes to pay…

So, not a great success then?.
;-)

That would require humility. I suspect said trader would complain that he could be doing "Better"…

That's totally untrue. There is endless mindless work. I brought nothing to my childhood paper run other than an ability to ride a pushbike, and that was not essential,…

More so as it is usually prefaced by the term "Hard Earned"
Slaving over a hot spreadsheet does not compare to cleaning corporate toilets in the middle of the night but…

and possibly in turn improving work conditions and pay to better reflect the value of the work

oh, also this...I've long been extremely angry at the "I earn my money therefore I should keep it" axe, purely due to the fact that many rich people are completely oblivious to the…

I'm not sure. I am uneasy about the assumed correlation between 'brightness' and wisdom (also, ahem, based on university experience..). I'd rather say that wisdom…

Snap

Another side of that is not all people derive wisdom from their work.
I can think of jobs, currency trading for instance, which give little insight into the everyday…

+1

i found people of great beauty around me while up…

I spent eight years gutting eels before I came to university. I wouldn't claim to have been anything like wise at the time, but I did have older colleagues who were masterful at managing staff relationships in an environment that had little job satifaction, no windows,…

both jobs i've done. in essence, they were no different to being a researcher.

but lets not get all up in ur face and buddhist about it.

and i stand by that.

i think we're starting from different premises. mine is that reaching 65 does not mean a person must leave the workforce <- a common attitude in places i've worked. people then leave because they feel compelled to by their workmates. i have this perhaps strange village mentality where i actually want older people out active and working in my community.

i'm assuming you think i mean that we work these old fkcers until they're broken?

seems one of us has issues with blanket assumptions about the nature of work

(Although a more general point would be – why the hell would you want to be better at data entering, or serving burgers?)

You also said that "if people can still work, they damn well should."

Still waiting for a concrete example of how it makes you better at jobs that are mindless – therefore render wisdom useless by definition. Translating ain't one of them.

what? i’m saying nothing of the sort. i’m saying that old age pension was brought in to cater for the incapacitated. but many draw that pension whether incapacitated or not.

go back to my previous,…

You have quite avoided my question. What difference would it make in the area of data entering, or burger serving?

So you are saying – again – that people should work until they are incapacitated. That actually is Dickensian, and I applaud you for it.

and at the time life expectancy was substantially lower, health-care almost non-existent. many people these days retire out of choice, not incapacity.

I now want to see you apply wisdom to the task of sorting through checks from a supermarket's daily takings.

not incompatible with wisdom. thinking otherwise could be a blanket assumption

I genuinely believe that…

Maybe for the staff, but does anyone actually enjoy answering twenty bloody questions just to get a sandwich?

When I go to buy my lunch, I want to be presented with a selection of lunch items I can choose from and maybe make minor adjustments…

Telling me won't do any good.

Goddammit dude, what did I tell you?

We did bring in old age pensions for a reason. 'Keep working until you drop dead' should be an option rather than a necessity.

I've had my share of menial jobs that I rather enjoyed in an odd way, and were means to an end, and furthermore I had older colleagues who also didn't seem to mind them or be overly distressed that their wisdom wasn't being valued, and enjoyed work…