Which leads me to the following conclusion. The recording industry has a technical solution for identifying people sharing files, similar to that used in the USA. However, it is not accurate enough to really know whether the sharing is legitimate or not.

This is an interesting concept don.
how do…

I also note that according to yourself only people with a strong background in fine arts and its history were competent to talk about Copyright.

No, only people who had a strong background in art history (and, at that, I'd really quite like a strong competence in one of the…

Critics say Turkey's penal code makes it too easy to obtain blocking orders, although in practice prohibitions are often easily overcome through proxy servers.

Sighs

The first hand accounts of the meeting between the two Ministers and interested parties a couple of weeks ago

I understand there will be limits to what can be said, but I'd be interested in hearing Rick's perspective on the meeting.

assessment of Judith Tizard – she works hard, has achieved a lot and deserves credit for lots of things, including her attention to indigenous rights and, I have to say, open source software.

well said don.
knowing that makes the present situation all the more confusing.
I don't see the…

What guts you have, to mock and slime someone who's no opportunity to reply.

Keir – I agree the rhetoric could do with toning down and I also agree with robbery's assessment of Judith Tizard – she works hard, has achieved a lot and deserves credit for lots of things,…

Sorry Simon but if it was "Massive" in the 20s then in the 60s it became exponentially "Super Massive" Surely you see that?
I mean, how can you say I'm incorrect? Can you point me at some actual numbers?

I did Steve....the sales of White Christmas for a start. This…

My car tape deck has gone bung.

Does anyone have any experience with car stereo mp3 systems?

I don't want to plug an mp3 player into a stereo, I want to put songs on the system directly via usb or something, and go from there. And I don't want…

i'm very far from anyone involved in briefing the minister or involved in the minister's office on this one, but i'm probably not wrong in assuming that she's working under advice.

I'm sure she's getting advice.

It's a bit of a coin toss as to whether a minister follows the…

record stores and cinema outlets have very thin margins and shallow pockets.

spoken like a man with indepth knowledge of music retail,
except ..... retails cut of a cd price is kinda big considering all they do in the process is stock the product and exchange it for money.
75%…

If the faceless media corporations (FMCs) don't give a crap about their downstream agents and clients now, I doubt they're going to listen to them in the future. They have…

Yes, it'll hurt retailers and artists who wil then,l I hope, join in and make the message even louder and clearer to the media conglomerates and various elected representatives. Why limit the collateral damage to ISPs and their customers in the Copyright…

if the music and movie industries want to hurt us, let's hurt them back. Organised one-day boycotts of purchased and rented music, DVDs and cinema films would sting.

or you could just download and pirate their wares in a mass media free for all, no wait, that's already happening.

hahaha…

Submissions, pointing out fallacies, inconsistencies and that the copyright act effectively gives judiciary powers to private entities are by and large ignored together with common sense.

Why then be pussies and continue trying to reason with…

He's been working the hype sites and MP3 blogs in a really interesting way by posting works-in-progress from his new album on his blog and letting them circulate.

People didn't like 'Love Lockdown', so he reworked it a couple of times. Now, he's posted…

and that advice might well be *bad* on some points, especially the child pron aspects russell mentioned in the…

Tizard's a public figure, who appears to be taking a disturbingly ill-informed and autocratic approach to shaping legislation that affects a lot of people who've taken the trouble to comment here. While I agree about the tone of "her widdle self", it seems pretty minor…

not just talk crap on the internet.

to be fair keir I think that is the same mark harris who told a booker prize winner they should have chosen a better paying career and that her country owed her nothing for her contribution to it. kinda hard to take anything…

I've no objection to `Tizard's position on x is wrong', that's fair, because it's public policy discussion, and public policy discussions have different…

What guts you have, to mock and slime someone who's no opportunity to reply. I'd be much more sympathetic to your arguments if you'd stop the ad homs about Tizard. They're kinda icky, I think.

Please forgive me if I'm missing some intended joke here, but how is…

What guts you have, to mock and slime someone who's no opportunity to reply. I'd be much more sympathetic to your arguments if you'd stop the ad homs about Tizard. They're kinda icky, I think.

Please forgive me if I'm missing some intended joke here, but how is…

mark kneebone, is this really the direction you want us to head in?

that's an interesting proposition. looking at a present situation and extrapolating where it might take you.

back when we were talking about drm and the wisdom of attacking it, I said it could be worse, they could…

But the advent of the recording industry becoming a big money spinner did not happen until the sixties, previous to this, owning a record player was still a luxury and we just listened to the radio.....

.......The fact is that the music recording/publishing industry has only been in existence for…

I still believe recorded music is better considered as an ad for live music.

That was the attitude very strongly in australia where they have a strong established tour circuit and a tradition of hard gigging bands.

as a recording engineer/artist I see live and recoded as completely different. Live…

Make it easy, make it cheap, and make it good, and we'll all flock to the screen, or the radio, or the rock show, in droves.

And give everyone a pony!

Easy, cheap and good sounds a damn lot like quick, cheap, and good.

her widdle self

What guts you have, to mock and slime someone who's no opportunity to reply. I'd be much more sympathetic to your arguments if you'd stop the ad homs about Tizard. They're kinda icky, I think.

Finally, lay off the Luddites. I quite respect working class activism in the face of the noose.

Many of them died in an industrial struggle; people like I/S would call them martyrs — if it hadn't been for the fact they contradicted the march of technology, apparently quite a few people's real hero.

]]> Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:15:32 +1300 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-inimical-to-the-public-good/?p=74268#post74268 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-inimical-to-the-public-good/?p=74268#post74268 Hat tip to Vik Oliver for that Motley Fool link.

I was just coming over to post but my tag team mate got there first...

Another quote from a very quotable article:

It's hard to please Hollywood and Sunset Boulevard. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) wasn't strict enough, and…

]]> Fri, 17 Oct 2008 16:08:58 +1300 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-inimical-to-the-public-good/?p=74252#post74252 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-inimical-to-the-public-good/?p=74252#post74252 The Motley Fool gets it!

Make it easy, make it cheap, and make it good, and we'll all flock to the screen, or the radio, or the rock show, in droves. Scare tactics like suing the pants off your biggest fans? That's the real anti-American road that should be less…

]]> Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:32:42 +1300 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-inimical-to-the-public-good/?p=74249#post74249 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-inimical-to-the-public-good/?p=74249#post74249 frankly, if the current "push" business model that identifies and makes stars out of wankers like vanilla ice or britney spears dies, then the world would actually be a better place.

and whoever the advisor is who created a link between 'music piracy' and "child pron"? you're an idiot who deserves to lose your job for misleading a member of the Government...

It's so ludicrous that I'm prepared to be convinced she came up with it all by her widdle…

My understanding (which comes from reading Simon Napier-Bell's book Black Vinyl White Powder) is that until the late 50s/early 60s a record company would buy the rights to a song

I'd take anything you read in Napier-Bell's books with a grain of something, as amusing as they are.

But you…

After the Beatles and others came on the…

My understanding of the argument made by Mark Kneebone above is that filesharing will (if the copyright enforcement powers sought by the industry aren't granted) undermine the economics of the recording industry and drive them out of business

And home taping is killing music....

I have a great deal of…

they want to be able to issue sheaves of take down notices without having to suffer any consequences.

that's my inexpert reading of what's been sold to the minister. i see "externalising enforcement costs".

and whoever the advisor is who created a link between 'music piracy' and "child pron"? you're…

My point really is that if this did happen there would still be music played through radio and other media. I'd assume that the record companies would not die but would move to a more viable business model

frankly, if the current "push" business model that identifies and makes stars…

First: sincere thanks to Stuart Coats and mark kneebone for showing up to tell their side of the story.

Sure, it would be nice if he answered the question about frivolous take down notice fines or showed some movement towards other peoples' POV. Right now the attempts to "find a…

My point really is that if this did happen there would still…

Now: imagine that someone illegally copies DVDs and distributes them by mail. Scratch that. Imagine someone's accused of doing that. Should New Zealand Post be obliged to prevent them from using…

Which would be fine in theory, but they'd have to find the music, get a decent copy of it, negotiate with each band to ensure they had permission, and compensate directly?

Agreed. However, to be fair, much of this is already covered via various blanket agreements and rights organisations, but…

but they'd have to find the music, get a decent copy of it, negotiate with each band to ensure they had permission, and compensate directly?

bro.. just knick it off the web, it's easier.

Yes, but if the record business imploded, radio stations and the like would still play music.

Which would be fine in theory, but they'd have to find the music, get a decent copy of it, negotiate with each band to ensure they had permission, and compensate directly?

If the big…

Firstly if record companies stopped servicing radio and the multitude of other outlets (how do you think a track gets featured on the front page of Beatport or gets a review in The Guardian), then other marketing organisations would step…

Yes, but if the record business imploded, radio stations and the like would still play music.

Currently, as far as I know, they play music sent to them by record businesses. If there suddenly stopped being a music business. they'd have to go find their own.

Which would be fine…

But they never buy discs

there's that generational change mentioned upstream...

All of which comes from record companies or other marketing organizations.

Yes, but if the record business imploded, radio stations and the like would still play music.

Every time I walk down Cuba St, I see posters for another half a dozen new bands I've never heard of. I'm sure…

Yeah, Rich, that's what I posted last night.

Sorry. Didn't follow your link.

my experience is that people who discover music via these more conventional means tend to purchase CDs or use itunes.

If only marginal music ( the sort of odd stuff I tend to listen to) was being d/loaded I don't think the majors would be quite so worried, but it's…

meh... cheap electronics and advances in computing these days makes big recording outfits all but obsolete these days anyhow.

well, yes and no. Somebody needs to tell people what to buy..98% of people don't find their music via Creative Commons sites, or Genius or scouring the net. They find as…

On the subject of unintended consequences, John McCain's campaign videos on YouTube have been being pulled as a result of DMCA takedown notices served (presumably) by his opponents.

Yeah, Rich, that's what I posted last night.

when under other circumstances they would of at least considered paying for it

And this is where your argument falls apart. You're assuming that downloaders don't buy, and that in the absence of downloading they might actually have done so. Can you present any evidence to support that position? Or…

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/15/youtube_responds_to_mccain/

McCain voted for the DMCA.

On the Real Groovy closure, I can't help thinking that their "attitude" might have contributed to their demise.

There was an infamous incident when the late John Peel went a-shopping at Real Groovy and was treated like a silly old man by sales assistants who didn't know who he was…

trading old CDs for new, spending cash money

Which of course also reduces the artist and record companies income. If a CD passes through several sets of hands rather than everyone buying their own, the creator sees less cash. Of course it isn't illegal to resell CDs (although attempts have…

Yep and, at the risk of being trivial, it wasn't piracy that took it down but naked competition.

I'm happy to take Chris Hart at his word that it was a disastrous foreign exchange deal — and the reluctance of existing partners to tip in more cash…

See my post this morning. It's all socialism now, baby.

it wasn't piracy that took it down but naked competition.

stupid investments

Sorry, Mark, but your old model is gone. I recommend you find a new one that doesn't entail treating your "fans" as criminals before they've done anything. That's what you're defending, in s92a.

meh... cheap electronics and advances in computing these days makes big recording outfits all but obsolete these…

we are truly all ears but we are not going to quit and go and sell band t shirts for a living.

Sorry, Mark, but your old model is gone. I recommend you find a new one that doesn't entail treating your "fans" as criminals before they've done anything. That's…

Are there any other sites or web enabled applications such as hypem, lasfm, emusic, metacritic....that music lovers should be aware of? (Hypem just found me a Queens of the Stoneage cover of an Elliott…

what's wrong with the fine for frivolous take down notices

and

Please note that copyright holders and ISP's are currently trying to nut out a solution, so hopefully there will be something that satisfies both parties as a result.

if those two…

I spent this afternoon with a tech company trying to figure out different delivery methods for audio at different quality rates

Eh?

– Get the mastering engineer to produce a FLAC (or WAV) file at the same time as they create the MP3.

– Stick it on the website as…

You would?

OK, here you go, in all it's deliciousness.

Enjoy.

I jumped into this forum because I was hoping to get some different approaches to the way things are being handled at the moment with the copyright act and the proposals for notice and takedown etc. Please note that copyright holders and ISP's…

"the industry" wants a big stick. I'd say that the stick is doomed, but we'll see ...

the other problem with the big stick is the negative impact it has elsewhere. So, even though it is doomed to failure, it still manages to skew things in unfortunate directions in the…

ISPs have asked for this before, but have been denied. Nothing has changed. Perhaps you could elucidate your statement.

ISPs are having to take some responsibility for what happens on their networks under the new law.

I propose that lowering the $ cost of a legal download to something like $1 per album would make it more advantageous (i.e. less total cost) to legally download than illegally download.

At $1 an album, though, it's not worth collecting the money. eMusic is the closed I've come to…

While the argument is often made that copyright infringement is not theft, it is not correct to say that it is not a crime,…

Wah? Mark, I thought you had some idea what we were discussing!

[sigh] Do I have to post yet another screenshot?

Well clearly that's changing somewhat.

ISPs have asked for this before, but have been denied. Nothing has changed. Perhaps you could elucidate your statement.

It's called 'common carrier status'- telcos have it, ISPs do not.

Well clearly that's changing somewhat.

Wah? Mark, I thought you had some idea what we were discussing!

A crime is something that appears in the crimes act. The police will come and arrest you.

Copyright infringement is a civil matter. someone will sue you.

It has its own act

Copyright infringement in the form of downloading is not a crime

Wah? Mark, I thought you had some idea what we were discussing!

But there's no principle in our society that says that provision of a service separates you from any responsibility at all for how that service is used. In some instances that's the case, in some it's not.

It's called 'common carrier status'- telcos have it, ISPs do not.

I am certain that Telecom would be responsive to complaints of obscene phone calls

Actually, speaking as someone who received an obscene phone call once, and phoned up Telecom to ask them to do something, they were next to useless. Not only did they refuse to do anything, they weren't…

Actually Matthew there is a parrallel here, I am certain that Telecom would be responsive to complaints of obscene phone calls and the cellphone operators are moving to curtail schoolyard bullying.

Obscene phone calls are a crime. Police, courts, prosecution, fines, etc. I suspect a good case could be made…

In an ideal world, there would be a sliding scale of quality vs price – if I'm prepared to drop some serious money, I could get something that approximates the original digital multitrack in native or SACD or DVD-A format.

A lot of specialist DJ suppliers, like Cytopia do just…

70% of those NZ albums are indie too. Quite something!

Here's a service I would gladly pay for. As a (sometime) audio geek, I find the quality of all MP3s simply appalling, and would happily pay a premium for music encoded with at least a lossless encoder, and preferably completely uncompressed.

In an ideal world, there would be a…

Here's a service I would gladly pay for. As a (sometime) audio geek, I find the quality of all MP3s simply appalling, and would happily pay a premium for music encoded with at least a lossless encoder, and preferably completely uncompressed.

In an ideal world, there would be a…

Here's a service I would gladly pay for. As a (sometime) audio geek, I find the quality of all MP3s simply appalling, and would happily pay a premium for music encoded with at least a lossless encoder, and preferably completely uncompressed.

In an ideal world, there would be a…

But the general principle is that you aren't responsible for what people do with services you provide.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the ISPs are responsible. They're not being taken to court for breach of copyright.

I think it's a valid point that the ISPs should have some…

Telecom isn't responsible for the actions of people who make obscene phone calls, or who make extortion demands by phone. Vodafone isn't responsible for the actions of users who send threatening text messages.

Actually Matthew there is a parrallel here, I am certain that Telecom would be responsive to complaints…

Excellent Media 7 taping last night, Russell.

ISPs wouldn't be pushing and providing broadband with bigger caps if there wasn't something in it for them.

It's called getting volume. Making 1% margin on $1m of turnover is much nicer than making 10% on $50k. If you have high caps, you'll get users. People are shifting their usage…

But there's no principle in our society that says that provision of a service separates you from any responsibility at all for how that service is used. In some instances that's the case, in some it's not.

You're right that responsibility isn't absolutely abrogated simply because you're a service provider.…

Turnover != Profit.

That doesn't mean that turnover isn't important in business, particularly relatively new areas where growth and expansion is important.

ISPs wouldn't be pushing and providing broadband with bigger caps if there wasn't something in it for them.

the Odds

It costs money to deal with all the C&D letters and legal crap, for starters

Which is precisely my point about taking some responsibility for the service you provide.

do you think there is more margin in Russell's high-cap broadband connection that he is flatlining the crap out of 24/7 or…

Russell's high-cap broadband connection that he is flatlining the crap out of 24/7

I have, er, two of those connections. Good job, since Leo's been on the World of Warcraft Wrath of the Litch King beta programme ...

A group of Good People (TM) in Wellington have been working on a project called Freethenet.

link don, link. i've heard rumblings around this idea for awhile now.

i'd gladly put some of this public service paycheque and my spare data cap to that project.

I'm glad its not just me noticing the deficit of vision in John Key's eyes.

I noted this morning...about Mr Key

The one who used to be a successful derivatives trader at Merrill Lynch and SHOULD know more about this type of crisis appears to be alternately smug…

copyright breaches in his download and are going to shut him off. He had to call and explain he has flatmates/wireless isn't necessarily that secure etc before they finally capitulated but told him it was last chance.

A group of Good People (TM) in Wellington have been working on a…

It's not stretching things too far to say that most ISPs have and will benefited from the activities of their customers in breach of copyright.

That's far from true. It costs money to deal with all the C&D letters and legal crap, for starters but most importantly, do you think there…

28 days is unworkable because it has a zero deterrent value to the people who are using copyrights they don’t own. Telling someone off is no deterrent at all for using copyrights you do not own, there has to be another way.

Mark, as you observed, you've got a period…

You complain about sites earning advertising dollars, well, offer your own indy Hype machine. Don't worry about the dollars yet, they will flow.

I think there's a structure there already — you can scrobble your Hype Machine listening to Last.fm, for example.

Australia's Modular Records (an "indie" in which Universal…

I realise that I am about to open up an entire world of pain by saying this but if you are going to use peoples copyrights to bring people to a site and then advertise around it then you should pay for the content you are profiting from

But…

Independents (28% of the world market and 85% of the music released in NZ) are left out. This is a simple divide and conquer strategy from the media companies so that they don't have to deal with paying Indies.

This is a very fair comment and your description of your…

I asked what number of days would be workable. Notice-notice is not simply "telling someone off"…

there have to be some people in the music industry who get the net, on sheer weight of numbers

i think you'll find that they will be the companies that make money because they aren't carrying rights-enforcement costs, or spending money trying to ensure they can externalise to ISPs...

that…

With the playing…

be nice to the environment and buy that off itunes.

SXCD disagrees.

What I don't get is that there _have_ to be some people in the music industry who get the net, on sheer weight of numbers. Why do they make it so hard for themselves, and us?

They are actually providing a means to download music and profiting from those who choose to do so

And the music industry still can't get its collective head around monetizing the Internet?

Oy vey.

but we are starting to stray into a different argument now, sites such as the one you have pointed out have taken it a step further than allowing people to grab music as they wish, they are actually selling advertising around it and making money from…

they were proposing 28 days total from when an ISP was notified to when the person infringing copyright was given their second notice to remove content.

Ah, so "completely unworkable" has simply become a timing issue. Any thoughts on a timeframe that is fair to all parties?

I propose that lowering the $ cost of a legal download to something like $1 per album would make it more advantageous (i.e. less total cost) to legally download than illegally download.

At $1 an album, though, it's not worth colllecting the money. eMusic is the closed I've come to…

I note that there is…

Why would there be a lesser level of protection for my personal communications just because their over one sort of network and not another?

Well that's a fair argument.

The one that gets spouted here and elsewhere that "service providers shouldn't have to have some responsibility for how their service…

time spent finding the album, slow download speeds, low quality encoding, incomplete album art and album metadata, all contribute to the "cost" of the download.

damn right. let alone dealing with fake torrents, spyware, malware, etc...

I pay the district and regional councils for my water (via rates). Are they responsible if I drown someone

District councils have the job, if you install a swimming pool at your house, of making sure that it is fenced, and safe.

For every example you come up with, there's…

I struggle with this strange concept. If you build a road do you make sure thieves are not allowed to drive on them?

Well, governments build roads, and they tend to provide traffic policing. And city councils build roads and they provide parking inspectors.

I guess my point is, Rich…

the trick is, as you say, monetising the activity an entire generation of internet users takes for granted.

I suspect there is some inertia in the recording/music industry relevant to how it has been historically monetised. Back in the day, every single copy of every single album or single represented…

Again there has to be some balance here and quite frankly the notice and notice provision put forward by the ISP's was a joke and completely unworkable.

Come on. Do better than that. Describe to us why it is "a joke and completely unworkable".

I have got to say that…

Maybe car rental company would be a better example.

I pay the district and regional councils for my water (via rates). Are they responsible if I drown someone? I don't think so.

record labels are still the engine that drives new and established acts.

yeah, i wasn't at all suggesting that you stop recording music. there will probably always in money in distribution. do you have projections on how much the distribution market will shrink if people are downloading your recordings for…

Well, neither of those things are services

Maybe they should employ a team to run around the suburbs removing TV aerials from the houses of people they suspect of using video recorders?

Is there a youtube video I can sample before I buy?

otoh, *everything* pop is post-The Strokes these days, innit...

Doesn't apply to many other services. Car makers and oil companies aren't responsible for the dangerous use of their products.

Well, neither of those things are services.

Maybe car rental company would be a better example.

Russell’s original comment that ISP’s shouldn’t cut connections because a mother might be penalised due to the actions of her son makes no sense, it likes saying that if the same son went out and used his mothers

Perhaps, but what of the situation mentioned above of people hacking your…

Is there a youtube video I can sample before I buy?

Why, yes there is. I think I might buy now.

be nice to the environment and buy that off itunes.

i'm assuming they are on itunes, aren't they?

But the need remains that if people are going to invest in these artists (including the artists themselves) they need to have a return on it.

I think that dovetails to Che's point – the current model of "$ per person listening" may need a revamp.

My brother for example…

Is there a youtube video I can sample before I buy?

Why, yes there is. I think I might buy now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt0wXcBzDt0

we tried to dictate to music fans instead of listening to them.

Well, the Copyright Act is *still* doing that on your behalf and at the same time having unfortunate effects on other parts of the economy *without* (I would argue) achieving your…

We had a chance to license Napster in 2001 and we choose to prosecute instead, we failed to embrace new trends in downloading and how people wanted to consume music and mainly we tried to dictate to music fans instead of listening to them.

And yet, Napster did eventually lead…

if you are going to sell a service (broadband) then you have a responsibility to make sure it is used legally and fairly

Doesn't apply to many other services. Car makers and oil companies aren't responsible for the dangerous use of their products.

I think the media industry's current business…

What I haven’t heard from anyone on this thread is a suggestion of how you balance fair use of the Internet with the rights of people who are having their property stolen using it. So please if you have a suggestion I am all ears.

the problem is that the…

I personally believe that if you are going to sell a service (broadband) then you have a responsibility to make sure it is used legally and fairly.

Woah. Lots of people sell goods and services that might not be used legally and fairly, including telephone companies — I don't think…

But I don't think I'm the only person who can't understand what sane person would let 92A out of the first draft alive.

Not just 1st draft, but actually go back on select committee changes. *If* the recording industry's main concern is that it doesn't want to go to court…

My name is Mark Kneebone and I am chairman of Independent Music NZ (earlier referred to in this thread by Simon). I also run a record label and a music marketing company in Auckland and between the two companies we represent…

BTW, I frequently use Firefox add-ons to grab website video for review purposes in the context of Media7.

Having just changed computers, I was reinstalling a bunch of the free programs I use, and downloading the latest versions of stuff. Real Player does this now!

And I was using savetube...

Jus' saying folks... I know copyright/intellectual property law is fiendishly…

It came up saying there was a malformed video ID... so either you embedded it wrong, or they already took it down :)

Also, because YouTube always acts with dispatch to take down material under the DMCA — or, as is increasingly the case, offers the claimant a slice of adjacent advertising revenue — it could certainly be argued that there is no copyright claim on…

175A Transient reproduction of recording of performance
A reproduction of a recording of a performance of a work does not infringe the rights conferred by this Part in the recording if the reproduction—
“(a) is transient or incidental; and
“(b) is…

I do wish I could get some of the music/copyright people into these discussions.

I used to manage a small record company so maybe I can help, although I make no claim to this being a definitive answer!
As has been pointed out previously the record company holds the copyright…

They then send a C&D to the network provider saying "this IP address, this time, this file, this protocol" and the provider does the leg work of identifying you.

But if it was for some sort of disputes tribunal, which is what people were suggesting, the ISP would have to provide…

The use is explicitly permitted — I just have to hope I'm not circumventing a TPM to get there ...

Try sections 43Aand 175A – it would appear to me that your covered, unless you accessed the material knowing it was a breach of copyright to do so. But IANAL

From The minister's speech at the third reading:

The bill clarifies the liability of Internet service providers—ISPs—when it comes to…

So am I; that's why I ask. Can someone point us to the relevant wording?

Try sections 43Aand 175A – it would appear to me that your covered, unless you accessed the material knowing it was a breach of copyright to do so. But IANAL

Yup. But for it to be a process in which, at very least, some evidence is provided of breach of copyright, that would have to come from the ISP. Otherwise everyone would just say "nah, I didn't" and it would go nowhere.

Not true. The US example is that copyright…

Under current law, these would be a breach of privacy. My understanding of S92A suggests that the ISP may terminate the access but is under no compulsion to release any other data to the copyright holder other than; "it's done".

Yup. But for it to be a process in which,…

For one thing, a copyright holder might need to get information from a third party (isp) about the extent of any breach – how long, how much, how many times etc.

Under current law, these would be a breach of privacy. My understanding of S92A suggests that the ISP may…

Can we pursue discussion on the idea here? Is there any major obstacle to it in principle?

I think the technicalities might be too much for a disputes type tribunal. Many of the cases that come before a tribunal, the facts are not disputed, it's the outcome that is disputed.…

I have a fibre connection at home (thanks, CityLink!) with a static IP address, and I maintain a mail and web server down in the garage. So I'm going to declare myself an ISP – as far as I can…

I'm not seeing how that is any more problematic than if its not the case.

Well, for one thing, you don't know if a vid contains infringing material until after you've seen ("downloaded") it. The same argument doesn't quite hold for torrents, etc.

The act does provide some leeway for…

The cost to the recording industry will still outweigh the cost of infriongement?

Only if they're unable to use carpet-bombed infringement notices, and ready-made settlements. As soon as return is vaguely related to cost-of-enforcement, it becomes a losing proposition.

I realise that we don't have the same kind of bullshit…

Is there any major obstacle to it in principle?

The cost to the recording industry will still outweigh the cost of infriongement?

(Which suggests that enforcement is not financially worthwhile and they should just give up...)

For you to view information on your screen, it has to have got into your computer-box somehow.

If that somehow was over the internets, it's "downloading"

The act does provide some leeway for transient copies, which is mainly to protect ISPs and other servers en route – I'm unsure whether…

(completely ignoring the fact that Youtube is (now) working in cahoots with copyright holders and taking stuff down, so that at least in theory, you cant see copyrighted material via…

it seems that there's a good parallel between selling pirated DVDs at the public market and sharing pirated files on the net.

No, there's not. One is a criminal act, punishable by fines, or even jail time. The other is a civil infringement. One is clearly a deprivation of income…

If I remember my fourth form social studies correctly there is a maximum penalty which can be assigned to either or both parties.

Yes, there is. By default Disputes will accept claims to a maximum value of $7,000. By mutual agreement between the parties, it can be increased to $12,000.…

If that somehow was over the internets, it's "downloading"

Well, yes, precicely. For the purposes of the Act, I mean. I'm sure you see the problem here if watching an infringing YouTube was to be considered an infringement.

Disputes Tribunals are not like formal courts. There are no lawyers or judges.

Disputes are heard by a referee who has been carefully selected and trained.

A referee is someone who will either help you to come to your own…

Right. So there needs to be a balance, just like every other aspect of copyright. Going to court is too hard for them, letting them make up reasons to have us disconnected without any arbitration is unreasonable for us.
How about a "small claims" for copyright infringers?

Far out. I…