I wonder if it's a simple as Worth ....

I always spout my distrust but it is because it's National and I don't expect any better.It is the form of that Party.They do have the ability to make me feel treated like we are not important to their operation.I do…

He is however making it harder to believe that Worth was ousted for some disrespect of due process, when his leader is not respecting conventions about accountability to the public…

I think Dr Worth goes against the grain, or at least against the reign.

Just so I'm clear about what I mean and don't. I don't think personal issues, marriages and kids etc, ought to be factors in assessing a Minister's competence. I think/hope I've been consistent on this score…

Paul: If you're linking them with my severely stretched credulity that Eddie's basing his claims on anything more than GOSSIP then yes — really. But, hey, what goes around comes around.

Leaving to one side my conflation of "adultery" with "sexual misconduct", I did think Worth's sacking was to do…

just because he hasn't given you the answer you wanted, that doesn't mean the question hasn't been addressed.

How has it been addressed?

Key's simply not addressed the public right to know what's led to a Minister being removed.

To paraphrase Margaret Wilson, just because he hasn't given you the answer you wanted, that doesn't mean the question hasn't been addressed.

None of this information is conjecture as far as I understand it (though I could be wrong), are you saying linking the two elements of the story requires a major leap of faith? Really?

Of course all of this could be resolved with a simple explanation from Key.

Paul: If…

None of this information is conjecture as far as I understand it (though I could be wrong), are you saying linking the two elements of the story requires a major leap of faith? Really?

Of course all of this could be resolved with a simple explanation from Key.

Paul: If…

Key's simply not addressed the public right to know what's led to a Minister being removed.

So not at all in fact for what Eddie is claiming. Just so we're clear on that.

... I see what you mean, yes...

Serious allegations of sexual misconduct have got nothing whatsoever to do with being "an adulterer". Can we agree on this?

Absolutely. If I created the impression I equated the two, I apologise. Allegations of sexual misconduct are potentially criminal matters.

but I am not speculating with the Big G in this house.;)

Knock your speculating self out, that's exactly what I was doing. So long as neither of us is claiming to have a double super secret background source we have to meet in a parking lot and who years…

Does everybody suspect that Worth was sacked for being an adulterer? I didn't.

My impression, and I didn't follow it too closely, was that Key said he was sacked because he was asked about X, denied it, and then subsequently admitted X was true and that he had lied.

And…

Were you going for a note-perfect impersonation of Ian Wishart, or was that just a pleasant side effect?

Does everybody suspect that Worth was sacked for being an adulterer? I didn't.

Well my sense of what "everyone" thinks is filtered by my access to information. I did think that that was generally understood, I could well be wrong. He should've been sacked for being a prat in my…

To me then it's a case of an admittedly partisan blogger claiming to have insider knowledge confirming what everyone basically suspects anyway ...

Does everybody suspect that Worth was sacked for being an adulterer? I didn't.

Eddie's credibility is just unknowable, the way in which the post is framed – partisan anonymous blogger citing anonymous sources to make a claim that is in itself impossible to disprove – makes its contents unverifiable from any angle.

I understand this point Gio, but the context and known information…

Isn't it more the case that you immediately made up your mind that s/he is?

Not quite (and believe me I wouldn't harp on about it if I didn't think it was important). Eddie's credibility is just unknowable, the way in which the post is framed – partisan anonymous blogger…

I see you're still assuming that Eddie is not just making things up.

Isn't it more the case that you immediately made up your mind that s/he is?

As I said, my guess is that s/he was told something by someone — people who work in Parliament do gossip over…

The funny thing is that the named journalists pay very close attention to those blogs. I suspect they'd be sad if no bloggers ever ventured things they'd been told in confidence.

I see you're still assuming that Eddie is not just making things up. But even if journalists do pay…

"Don't you think she looks tired?"

Truly bizarre...

So by your lights, Judith Miller's bogus WMD stories for the New York Times were okay because they appeared under a byline in a reputable paper, but a blogger breaking a genuine story isn't?

FFS, Russell... Point me kindly to where I wrote or suggested that we should trust journalists…

I find it problematic, regardless of how usual or unusual it is.

So by your lights, Judith Miller's bogus WMD stories for the New York Times were okay because they appeared under a byline in a reputable paper, but a blogger breaking a genuine story isn't?

I presume you're making…

The more correct comparison would be with the kind of tips on who's-going-to-do-what that come and go in the US political media on a roughly hourly basis. It's hardly unusual.

And how often is it also completely wrong? And I think there's certainly a difference between between speculating that X.…

BTW, I have no problem with anonymous political blogging per se – I think we can all agree that what Idiot/Savant does is very valuable.

Sure, just as I don't think The Economist is any less credible or interesting because it sees no need to dispense with the historical tradition…

Are you really comparing a claim of an insider tip on a Prime Ministerial decision with the speculation about Palin's baby?

Yes, insofar and I don't think it's the plausibility of either that is an issue. I'm trying to make the point that anonymous blogger + vague anonymous sources =…

Giovanni, while it is not fact without proof, I do not see how "I got this from Nat insiders" qualfies as opinion.

I think fact and opinion are indistinguishable when what is stated as fact has got no corroboration whatsoever. We've been there in the Trig Palin affair, where a…

I meant about this specific story, Craig. Interesting DimPost argument on that front, thanks, though our friend "refute" = deny rears its ugly head again.<./quote>

I've lost that one, and am now saving my belled pedant hat for misuse of decimate (which does not mean "lot of shit got burned…

In the case of anonymous partisan blogger referring to multiple anonymous sources, I think that bar has to be set very high – higher than for a traditional journalist who at least has a name and is held to professional codes of practice.

To which the appropriate response is surely:…

I believe Fran's "Mood of the Boardroom" would qualify all too well. Seductive lighting, candles and all.

I think Fran's winks and nods from anonymous sources are often her most useful work. Which isn't to say that they don't sometimes have to be taken with a grain of salt.

Unless you can prove that Eddie's claims of a National party source are wrong, Craig, then we're in the same position with your "claims" here aren't we?

Who here makes claims of insider knowledge? There is a difference between fact and opinion, and if an opinion is presented as fact…

I really don't get what's particularly egregious about the story compared with many others. Unless you can prove that Eddie's claims of a National party source are wrong, Craig, then we're in the same position with your "claims" here aren't we? And with mine and anyone else's.

Sacha: So everyone…

I was thinking more about the kinds of shit Farrar would catch around here if he ran presented as fact (under a blazing headline) entirely anecdotal 'evidence' from a hardly disinterested source.

Perhaps, but Eddie's claims are only sustainable to the extent that Key's pronouncements created a vacuum. Again, it's…

presented as fact (under a blazing headline) entirely anecdotal 'evidence' from a hardly disinterested source.

I believe Fran's "Mood of the Boardroom" would qualify all too well. Seductive lighting, candles and all.

I do not want gosspiy details but it sets a pretty dangerous precedent if our leaders think they can get away with shit like this with no repercussions.

I just fail to see what he's got away with. Key fired Worth. If there isn't anything more than that (other people…

I was thinking more about the kinds of shit Farrar would catch around here if he ran presented as fact (under a blazing headline) entirely anecdotal 'evidence' from a hardly disinterested source.

The EMA survey was news on the radio this morning, and I presume the author has seen the…

Got to have…

"The Minister cannot be effective in his job in a flagship government programme while allegations, controversy, and public debate swirl around him."

It occurs to me that given the charges against Worth have now been dropped, Key could reinstate him... that'd be decisive. Clark did, in the end, largely rehabilitate…

I am not prepared to let that happen. Last week allegations were put in the public arena about teenage pregnancy and the issue of the imbalance of power in a relationship. Today there are allegations…

My view is that it serves to highten the contrast between the cases. Clark's made clear she's stood him down, not sacked him, until the matters -…

Samuels was stood down for known transgressions.

Paul — no. He was stood down because "The Minister cannot be effective in his job in a flagship government programme while allegations, controversy, and public debate swirl around him."

If you want to dump on Key, you really shouldn't re-write history while…

I still think Clark's handling was superior to Key's. Samuels was stood down for known transgressions. This meant the public could determine the quality/reasonableness of the decision.

This is the difference in the Worth matter. Worth resigned etc but didn't say…

In the Dover Samuel's sacking, which I think was the first of Clark's many, didn't the PM make some pretty frank statements about him (though she subsequently rehabilitated him)?

Um, you mean "his position is untenable while there are allegations swirling around him" — but when the allegations stopped swirling…

so I'm thinking of converting to the Italian Mean Time and applying myself to the task properly now.

And I'm stuck two hours behind the conversation... I show up and I swear all the funny and pertinent things I was going to say have been said... honest!

But back to…

Oh Sacha, why must you think the worst of people?

The best, you mean. Was admiring the commitment level.

Still?

I got stuck doing something that required me to be sober, so I'm thinking of converting to the Italian Mean Time and applying myself to the task properly now.

Still?

Oh Sacha, why must you think the worst of people?

And you don't half rain down judgement sometimes.

That I do, and may I interest you in some stone tablets?

like a fishbowl without the spectral aberrations? do you/... do you?)John must fess up, I can't live with this not knowing, I can't I tell you. I just can't.
sob…

So I suspect we've got the right result, despite not knowing the process.

The only way I could get concerned about it if there were lingering effects of his activities (say he had been bribed or blackmailed and signed stuff or agreed to things as a result,

But you will…

You give people the most extraordinary latitude sometimes.

And you don't half rain down judgement sometimes.

David Fisher admits looking with a telescope through the office windows of the editor of a rival paper ...

I have actually thought about the criticism there. What I should have done was try…

Cheney for PM?

Of course, Sacha, just like Helen Clark is exactly like Robert Mugabe in geisha makeup and drag. (And I tried and failed to let some fresh air into that room over at Kiwibog.) It is a bit early in the morning for popcorn, but if we're going…

Sorry, Russell, but you're seriously telling me that Farrar or the Herald wouldn't be getting a serve from you if they claimed that Goff sacked someone "for adultery", on a pretty flimsy basis?

If the circumstances were the same, and I'd rather not go through them yet again, I might…

How hard would it be to say something generic like "lack of moral standards" or "he lied to me" and leave it at that. I do not want gosspiy details but it sets a pretty dangerous precedent…

What we got was, well, a whole lot of speculation. Key knew why he let him go.

Personally I can't find myself up in arms that I don't know why a Minister has been sacked.

I could get up in arms if the minister hadn't been sacked, and I didn't…

That seems a pretty confident assertion about the source of the information, and we are now told it is made by a senior Labour comms person who might plausibly have access to moles in National.

There's this guy called Eklund who blogs on ice hockey and has an enormous following…

sips.

Hic.

Cheers ears :)Here's to a bit o' liver damage

Last Monday, John Key said you, the people of New Zealand, don’t have the right to know why a minister in your government was sacked.

We think you do have that right. And so do others. We have…

It is not about credibility of a blogger, it is abut the credibility of our Prime Minister.
Get that up yer

I think we can question the credibility of our Prime Minister better if we don't latch on to baseless hack-concocted scenarios, no? That's all I was saying really -…

And have you stopped beating your wife yet, Steve?

No, I am just too competitive at scrabble.

The Standard will get a pass not extended to Farrar or Slater because

Well, just because, eh?.

you don't like their preferred target.

I adore their preferred target. You know, those that care as…

It is not about credibility of a blogger, it is abut the credibility of our Prime Minister. Get that up yer.

And have you stopped beating your wife yet, Steve? But thanks for the indirect answer: The Standard will get a pass not extended to Farrar or Slater because you…

"Public interest" as well we know, is oft misunderstood. The way Key used it was, imho, "in the best interest of the…

Is there a tag or is that a gratuitous slur on your ethnic heritage?

Can't hear over the sound of these spicey meatballs that I'm chewing.

What are you gonna do?

Oh, a bit of substance abuse. Who knows, if I manage to trash my remaining brain cells I might join a political party.

What are you gonna do?

Is there a tag or is that a gratuitous slur on your ethnic heritage?

planning to get plastered

Do keep posting..

On the other hand, I'm off antibiotics and planning to get plastered – so chances are I won't remember any of this tomorrow.

So you'll wake up in the morning believing that Eddie's a bloke. No wonder these party hacks play us for fools.

You have a moral certainty I cannot find within me.

It would seem the opposite of moral certainty to me, given that The Standard is on my political corner. I'm just suggesting we apply the same standard of evidence across the board. I get that Key could kill all speculation…

You give people the most extraordinary latitude sometimes.

Sigh ... I give up.

I didn't even link to the post. My comment when Craig did was to observe that if it was true (and it could be cleared up in a second), Key would be putting himself in a difficult…

It's not like he's bragging about it: he actually says "Don’t get too excited. It’s not the super-conspiracy."

Nah, just charged Key with being a panty-sniffing hypocrite, — which he considered a very big deal — based on anonymous (and possibly entirely ficticious) National Party sources. Sorry, Russell, but you're…

It's not really Worth's personal life that's being speculated on, as I've tried to point out.

No, I get it, it's Key's motivations. That's the whole point of Eddie's article.

Of course we'd weigh the claim in the light of the place where it's published. But you appear to be…

What does that even mean? Of course it could be true, hell, anything could be true. But some speculation is just not worthy of being dignified with discussion.

It's not really Worth's personal life that's being speculated on, as I've tried to point out.

(Unless the Korean woman is a…

Call me back when Eddie has a name and a surname . . .

Here you go.

Er, because possibly it isn't unadulterated bullshit?

What does that even mean? Of course it could be true, hell, anything could be true. But some speculation is just not worthy of being dignified with discussion. An anonymous partisan blogger citing anonymous sources in its enemy party, in a country where…

Sorry*, but I'm with Craig on this one. Why are we even entertaining the possibility that what 'Eddie' is claiming isn't a pile of unulterated bullshit?

Er, because possibly it isn't unadulterated bullshit?

I'd hardly go the the bank on it and I have no idea who Eddie is or…

A lot of it's muscle. My shoulders are wide. Buck, my personal trainer, is a monster."

And I bet his shit don't stink

"I am literally not afraid of anyone. You'd have to put a gun in my face, and then it would also have to be a real one…

And if those 'National sources' are a big a figment of "Eddie's' imagination as Mr. Slater's intimate Labour contacts? Oh, that's right — no recourse to the Press Council or BSA, and if your servers are offshore it becomes rather difficult to sue either.

Sorry*, but I'm with Craig on…

I am literally not afraid of anyone. You’d have to put a gun in my face, and then it would also have to be a real one for me to start worrying, and even then I’d be working out angles so they wouldn’t do it.

Pffft. Rambo can't even provide…

Whatever you can say about Slater, the SST profile was pretty damn fascinating and funny. My favourite line:

__I am literally not afraid of anyone. You’d have to put a gun in my face, and then it would also have to be a real one for me to start worrying,…

I am literally not afraid of anyone. You’d have to put a gun in my face and even then I’d be working out angles so they wouldn’t do it.

Sound just like... Grant Dexter. Claytons people?.
(As in being human without the humanity)

It's a tricky area, but when, say, John Armstrong runs a story based on a leak from National we know that he has (very)…

Most depressed people do not make a career out of viciously and gleefully attacking others. While I have sympathy for Slater's mental health, that does not excuse his behaviour. And yes, bullies piss me off. Which probably does not excuse my behaviour either. Guess which cheek I'm turning.

Is it…

So did Stephen Cook when he breathlessly reported Sharon Shipton had left her husband — which came as a very great surprise to her and which she (quite rightly) extracted a grovelling apology for.

At the risk of falling into the vortex, how does one bogus story by a journalist…

If anything, he comes across as a Claytons Rambo in that photo.

Are you meaning Clayton Weatherston?

"A Claytons [noun]" is a Australasian English phrase. It stems from Claytosx, a non-alcoholic whisky substitute that was marketed as "the drink you have when you're not having a drink".

Wikipedia sez:

__The…

Presumably Mr Key could clear it up.

Sorry for trying to de-derail back onto the question I originally asked: But what if Eddie's "National sources" don't exist? Hey, I can repeat gossip and innuendo too; but its not much of a substitute for sourced fact.

Or does The Standard get…

And if those 'National sources' are a big a figment of "Eddie's' imagination as Mr. Slater's intimate Labour contacts? Oh, that's right — no recourse to the Press Council or BSA, and if your servers are offshore it becomes rather difficult to sue either.

But even Worth's friends have been…

If it was because "he was an adulterer", the article has a point in saying that Key has set a new and potentially problematic standard for ministerial conduct.

And if those 'National sources' are a big a figment of "Eddie's' imagination as Mr. Slater's intimate Labour contacts? Oh, that's right…

I get the same icky feeling from complaining about Garth George: a guilty sense that you're just part of an ongoing cycle of attention-seeking and gratification.

It's the Circle of Life, baby — remade by David Lynch, Cronenberg and Tim Burton!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX07j9SDFcc

Or this one — though it seems to be more in the class of make shit up, liberally season with the tears of a crocodile then sit back and wonder why bloggers have credibility problems.

To be fair, there is actually public interest in the sacking of a minister of…

I get the same icky feeling from complaining about Garth George: a guilty sense that you're just part of an…

But still, it would be nice not to be swimming in the sewer.

Or this one — though it seems to be more in the class of make shit up, liberally season with the tears of a crocodile then sit back and wonder why bloggers have credibility problems.

Riiight. So we all just sit about playing nice and waiting for the day he slips in his own oil and does himself some major damage. Oh, maybe he just did.

Well, Kerry, I have slightly more important things to exercise my worry warts over. Having had some experience of…

Looks like old fashioned Self Esteem problem to me.

Clayton Weatherston?

I suppose we're not allowed to talk about him whilst trial is in progress, but, yeah... my sympathy for him having to wear glasses, be Dux of his school, stay at motels with mum & dad instead of billets...well, it knows no bounds.

felchtard

Ah, my vocabulary increases! Tho wikidict sez it's "felchard" without the "t". It must be common practice amongst whales perhaps?

Felch

Enjoying the juxtaposition of thread title and last 2 pages of comments...

... depression is not necessarily a constant condition. Those of us who suffer from it don’t feel like shit all the time, and, speaking for myself, blogging is about the easiest thing to do while depressed, short of taking a dump. You…

Clayton's Rambo

But now I want to see what talented metalworkers can do with an excuse welder. Crawford?

We need more people to combat this PC crap that only serves to weaken society and create a bunch of namby pamby excuse welding fruit loops.

Of course you just know that those who advocate the bloody good kick up the bum solution would, in most cases, have to stand…

excuse welding

Man, it's a shame about the adult education schemes being axed, cos I'd totally take a night class.

just a weirdly bullying response to a bully

Riiight. So we all just sit about playing nice and waiting for the day he slips in his own oil and does himself some major damage. Oh, maybe he just did.

Paul has got it right, they are.

This whole culture of ” I’ve got a disorder, so deal with it ” is bollocks. Its about time people took responsibility for dealing with, and…

That SST photo of Blubber is hilarious. Tucking his hands inside his arms to try make them look all strong instead of flabby, just like a pubescent teen would. Poor insecure bastard.

If anything, he comes across as a Clayton's Rambo in that photo. With friends like him, who needs…

As I'm not too up on cutting-edge psychology, it wouldn't surprise me if there already is one.

Most depressed people do not make a career out of viciously and gleefully attacking others.

So I've noticed. Once we have a clinical term for being a total shit, and it becomes a recognised disability that one may publicly spill one's guts about, there's only plain old suburban depression. You…

Oh yes, the meek shall inherit the earth and all that.

Sacha: Nice deployment of the Whaleoily passive into you aggression, but that wasn't meek and you really don't want to start trading Biblical tags.

As the commentariat Around Here…

I doubt anyone other than you is taking it as a generic comment, Craig.

No, Sacha, just a weirdly bullying response to a bully. One of the more deliicious ironies about Slater is that he does bring out the ugly, prickish and irony-free in people who should know better --…

That SST photo of Blubber is hilarious.

Hey, Sacha, let's cut a deal: You cut the fat cracks, and I'll leave the retards, gimps and spastics alone.

From the "so we don't have to" file, the Standardistas discuss Master Slater, man o mystery.

You'll also note in that thread there's an impassioned post from one of Pearl Going's "friends". The unusual elements of this story do not seem to end with Slater himself.

Just stay very still…

Let’s get this clear then, a 40 year old unemployed freak has spent over a year stalking and bullying a 24 year old woman he’s never met for no reason at all. WTF?

Given…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWBfLOZ2CjQ&feature=related

That SST photo of Blubber is hilarious.

So that's what a wanker looks like.

Into the creepy – Whaleoil is hounding a 24yr old young woman.

Creepy squared: The Herald on Sunday — that bellweather of good taste and rigorous journalistic and editorial standards — crawling onto the moral high ground.

Perhaps the Herald on Sunday knew about the very large piece on Cameron…

Into the creepy – Whaleoil is hounding a 24yr old young woman.

Creepy squared: The Herald on Sunday — that bellweather of good taste and rigorous journalistic and editorial standards — crawling onto the moral high ground.

Burchill will sometimes positively go to war on herself — her down-on-the-gays period was followed by her lesbian period, for example. But that is how she is.

If she's ever acknowledged her inconsistencies I've missed it, but there are vast slabs of her career that've happily passed me by.

She…

i am curious about RB's comment on Julie Burchill. Exactly what is the problem with disagreeing with yourself sometimes? Even in the midst of composition?

Burchill will sometimes positively go to war on herself — her down-on-the-gays period was followed by her lesbian period, for example. But that is how…

Not so much for all DJs though I am guessing.. Jarvis Cocker, Cunts are still running the world is played during the day

As it should be ;-)

I'm not suggesting there are hard and fast rules (although I wouldn't know these days anyway). Matt & Chris on Thursday Drive will…

Of course, Uroskin, it's always easy to be brave with someone else's cojones, n'est-ce pas?

I'm always only brave with my own ones, thank you very much. We have had death threats for showing some programmes (always a slightly more scary experience than being slapped by Tapu Misa)…

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10583918

Not knowing any of the of it beyond this story it reeks of middleaged obsession with youth and all of the nasty destructiveness Whaleoil is known for.

I don't know either but to watch two respected thinkers behave like a couple of seven year olds gives us all a glimps at the emperors new clothes & their very human failings of ego.

Burchill isn't a "respected thinker" — she doesn't even agree with herself sometimes — but she…

I don't know either but to watch two respected thinkers behave like a couple of seven year olds gives us all a glimps at the emperors new clothes & their very human failings of ego.

I'm still disappointed TVNZ7 didn't have the cojones to repeat the Media 7 show on Friday morning lest it frightened the kiddies and their mums confusing the station with TVNZ 6.

I'm not. It was an editorial decision, bearing in mind the fact of school holidays. Whether we could have…

I'm still disappointed TVNZ7 didn't have the cojones to repeat the Media 7 show on Friday morning lest it frightened the kiddies and their mums confusing the station with TVNZ 6.

Of course, Uroskin, it's always easy to be brave with someone else's cojones, n'est-ce pas?

Anyway,

If homophobes don't to feel rejected then perhaps they should get out of the rejection business. If they're offended then, now they know how it feels. And this is done with humour.

Tim provides the counter to…

i dig very much the work of JB but will someone tell me just what is so loveable about the above quotational?

plz?

You know Michael H (great first name btw;-)), as one of the participants in the clip, I thought it was entirely aimed at nutters and bigots, and dismissive of them rather than attacking them. It is both light-hearted (hence all the smiles) and making a serious point.

We don't want…

Daughter searches for father & ends up in a 10yr sexual relationship with him. Only Dad was convicted, the daughter aquited & the paper didn't say why.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2585571/Man-found-guilty-of-incest

Apropos the Lily-Allen thing I feel bound to report that the pages of this week's "Press" are full of frothing and gnashing of teeth following the publication of a 3-page article on bondage.

But let me guess: not so much with the legnthy, and unnervingly detailed, reportage of how Sophie…

If a stigmatised group can't use a stigmatised word, then who can?

Well, Tim, as was noted by Russell and Bill Hastings, research into perceptions of offensive language show "nigger" pushes most people's buttons hard — and, IMHO, for good reason. While you mileage may vary, I find it even…