The philosophy/logic stuff is just word games on Russell's original question. Like I said, there are no 'always wrong' people – that would be a…

"Person x has an irrational (and false) belief that any one or more of their beliefs were irrational and false."

That formulation can be rejected immediately as false since it leads immediately to contradiction. You simply can't have an irrational and false belief that any one or more of…

Y'know, sometimes these comments really piss me off. To the point that I fantasize about annexing Auckland, sealing the borders, and declaring ourselves a sovereign state.

But yes, I do find all this 'I hate Auckland – and the disrespect is entirely mutual' crapola rather tiresome.

There's some psychoanalysis work…

"Suppose you had an irrational belief that all your beliefs were irrational and false?"

I think I was after "Person x has an irrational (and false) belief that any one or more of their beliefs were irrational and false." I was indeed trying to…

Oh sweet baby Jeebus – NSFW tag, please! :) But yes, I do find all this 'I hate Auckland – and the disrespect is entirely mutual' crapola rather tiresome. Hell, my default setting is that everyone irritates me, on way or another, and have seen little reason to change.…

I've had a lot of conversations over the last three plus years about how Wellington is a geat sucking leech squatting on the head of Auckland, and giving little in return. :)

You mean like this? :)

__Moderator's note: took out a non-worksafe and somewhat gratuitous link to a tacky forum…

Not for the first time, I think we agree on more than might be apparent at first sight. :)

Yes. It's not even strange. What is strange is that it's difficult to see the level of similarity. That requires a lot of training and conditioning, to create difference where…

I've had a lot of conversations over the last three plus years about how Wellington is a geat sucking leech squatting on the head of Auckland, and giving little in return. :)

Amusingly, that's how much of the rest of the country sees Auckland, sucking on the rest of us…

Poor old Mayor Garry Moore in CHCH is shadow boxing like a tormented drunk everyone taps on the shoulder he comes out with a wildly inaccurate right hook.…

Poor old Mayor Garry Moore in CHCH is shadow boxing like a tormented drunk everyone taps on the shoulder he comes out with a wildly inaccurate right hook.…

These had a wide range of miraculous properties, from preventing cancer to increasing intelligence and boosting your sexual potency.

I here that Apple has come up with the answer to all our hopes and dreams. It's called the iWish.

Thanks. That was nasty and I've deleted it

Phew... I read Craig's post which is now last, several times trying to understand what was so bad about it :)

But to be honest, the Setchell case was also basically a Wellington story. I'd wager conversations about it were a lot shorter in Auckland: DBP couldn't keep his story straight, again, and it was the final straw.

It was significant that it was David, as a former Prime Ministerial speechwriter,…

Should say this more often, but thanks for the cogent and thoughful response. Not for the first time, I think we agree on more than might be apparent at first sight. :)

Well, Ben, I actually thought it was delightfully naive to believe Labour won't start scaremongering about National's evil "hidden agenda" no matter how many reams of insanely detailed policy they produce. Or were we in alternate universes during '95?

Quite probably, I was living in Australia then. But I…

Try the last post in the thread, an impressive litany of lies and innuendo nobody else seemed to take issue with.

Thanks. That was nasty and I've deleted it — you'll have to take my word that I hadn't seen it till you linked to it. But it looks fairer…

I look to these blogs as being from informed or at least intelligent contributors....so please attempt to be that and help out some…

and Aromatherapy is not delusional, it just smells that way.

Riiiiiight. So if you anosmic, it actually might work!

;o)

BTW – I am quite relaxed about, if not pro, regulation. But the TPAMB was recklessly flawed. At least, from an aromatherapist's POV.

You've never heard Brendon Telfer commentate the netball then.

Pay that!

But hey, if we regulate party pills, why not other such drugs?

Well, I come at it from a slightly different angle. No matter how "slow and gullible" I may be, I'd rather like (at the very least) to make an informed choice before dosing myself with 'natural' dietary supplements…

Try the last post in the thread, an impressive litany of lies and innuendo nobody else seemed to take issue with.

Re the therapeutics bill, I was…

So don't give me any of this "delightfully naive" bs, I'm clued up enough to know that I don't know, and why. It's not for lack of interest or trying to find out.

Well, Ben, I actually thought it was delightfully naive to believe Labour won't start scaremongering about National's…

and Aromatherapy is not delusional, it just smells that way.

If you wrong about being delusional, then (since your belief you were delusional is false) you would be deluded – so you'd be right.

If you were right, then, your belief being true, you'd be wrong.…

What if you had an irrational belief that you were delusional? Huh? Huh?

Then you are not delusional, just wrong.

Oops, I get your question now. You mean "what if you had a true belief that you are delusional, but no justification? Then you couldn't be said to 'know' it,…

What if you had an irrational belief that you were delusional? Huh? Huh?

Then…

Are you delusional if you think you know you're delusional?

What if you had an irrational belief that you were delusional? Huh? Huh?

For some reason I'm reminded of an example from early on in my theory-of-knowledge lectures. Good luck following it...

It's suggest that to 'know' something you have…

You'd be an inverse oracle. I guess it's pretty obvious there are no delusional people in that sense

You've never heard Brendon Telfer commentate the netball then.

Unless I'm delusional, in which case maybe I only think that I thought that I am, so possibly I aren't.

But if I aren't, then I wouldn't be thinking at all, so probably I am.

Therefore I'm not delusional.

Or something.

Are you delusional if you think you know you're delusional?

I think the answer is no. If being delusional means being wrong about everything, then you can't be delusional and think you are delusional. But you could be not delusional, and think you are delusional, and just be wrong about…

And I note that the amount of comments covering Keys stupid but basically trivial offense is already larger than the entire discussion of the Benson-Pope-Setchell affair.

But Key has at least one supporter posting here – something that cannot be said for DBP & the post concerning his demise.

FINALLY. I thought Public Address would NEVER tire of that subject

I was going to write a DBP memorial last Friday, but I couldn't summon the motivation. I'd blathered about it on every radio slot I do and contributed to that thread.

There wasn't much more I could think of…

It's those who think they do know that are delusional.

Are you delusional if you think you know you're delusional?

Sorry, I'm having a silly afternoon.

Now, if you're a purist libertarian who thinks legislative gridlock is utopia there's no downside. The rest of us might have some doubts. Don't get me wrong, Ben, I applaud the breath-taking cynicism and contempt for the electorate you're proposing. I'd prefer to have a little more faith in…

David Farrar always asks me the same question when I have him up about ignoring news stories he finds uncomfortable.

And I note that the amount of comments covering Keys stupid but basically trivial offense is already larger…

Anyway, feel free to add to this discussion if it hasn't been covered enough for your liking.

And ron, we've moved on from David, since he's gone.

FINALLY. I thought Public Address would NEVER tire of that subject

A spin to the left of course ...

More like an uncharitable description. But not inaccurate, either.

I read Key's denial of what Audrey Young published not as a 'smear' but as an attempt to clarify.

If you were any more charitable, you'd be giving him your shirt.

"National party leader caught lying in attempts to smear journalist"

Well, that's one way of spinning it. A spin to the left of course ...

I read Key's denial of what Audrey Young published not as a 'smear' but as an attempt to clarify. Unfortunately for Key his memory of…

Surely he is not so stupid as to say this:

"I did agree to consider such a proposal – in fact I made such a proposal to Annette King -…

Sorry, Don, I just don't buy the notion that there's any blameless victim here.

Well, there's a surprise.

And ron, we've moved on from David, since he's gone. We're on the "National party leader caught lying in attempts to smear journalist" now.

This is a pretty straightforward request.

It was a year ago and I have never heard from them.

I haven't read it either. But I hope you're not suggesting there's a conflict of interest.

No of course not. As DPB found out to his cost, that sort of thing just doesn't happen.

If it did, Clifton would no doubt have reported the call from the PM.

Please, Don. This…

By appointing a leader with so little parliamentary experience, National took a real risk…

Why on earth would the PM, who needs the support of National to pass this bill, not invite John Key to the briefing? Truly ming boggling.

"What do you mean, Flash Gordon approaching"? (sorry, I was thinking of Ming boggles).

Well, I dunno. Maybe Key was overseas or just out…

So from today’s Dom, in its review of tonight’s game between Manawatu and Tasman, Manawatu coach Dave Rennie referring to Argentinean fullback Francisco Bosch…

Truly ming boggling

It's spelt minge.

Why on earth would the PM, who needs the support of National to pass this bill, not invite John Key to the briefing? Truly ming boggling.

It also casts an interesting light on Jane Clifton's "it's all because Annette King is such a cow" explanation of events.…

This was an opportunity for that overworked word, statesmanship.

Certainly, Don – and that works both ways. So does good faith bargaining.

Certainly is, then again do you think perhaps Labour has made a rod for their own back

For sure and of course. But this goes beyond that. In fact, I really doubt this bill appeals to Labour's constituency. Must people in NZ probably don't really care even though it is…

They'll be to busy moving to Aussie, or inciting a military coup, or simply retreating to the bath with a 40oz bottle of Bombay Sapphire and a stanley knife.

Oy vey...

Mind you, if National can't form a government next election at least the right wing bloggers will fall silent...

Hardly.

Renewed (and louder) complaints about something called "the Maorimander".

Laments against MMP as undemocratic etc. if they do well with electorates.

Repeated assertions that Labour stole the last election and…

I think that is such a negative FPP thing to say! National won't lose, they'll just be unable to form a government. Its a fine distinction, but its an MMP one.

Mind you, if National…

That is breathtaking.

Certainly is, then again do you think perhaps Labour has made a rod for their own back – just a wee bit? Sorry, Don, I just don't buy the notion that there's any blameless victim here.

That is breathtaking.

It also casts an interesting light on Jane Clifton's "it's all because Annette King is such a cow" explanation of events.

It is hard enough finding a Bill sometimes, though the new Parliamentary website does that OK at last, even if they…

Pick up the phone and ask for it.

That's surely not how parties are briefed about legislation that's up for debate, is it?

No they have to arrange to meet first. The Herald blog said Helen Clarke, no less, called McCully to make such arrangements and was told to shove…

To my mind this shitfight is the outcome of flipflopping. If National would simply make their position clear in policy documents then this argument about "what people meant when they said X" would just never happen.

Oh, Ben, how delightfully naive – there's always the nefarious 'secret agenda' (which, of…

The only thing I find inexplicabe is your failure to discuss DBP's departure from Cabinet.

"You have to give John Key his credit: when he flip-flops, he generally contrives to do so in the right direction."

Would have been catchy. But needs the caveat "...at least whilst in Opposition". When he's PM?

To my mind this shitfight is the outcome of flipflopping. If National would…

OK, I've probably missed something here (at least, I hope I have) but had Clark actually seen a copy of this SOP when she was talking it up? What was the basis for her 'understanding', because it seems that the 'Peters Compromise' definitely wasn't going to fly with the…

I'd LOVE to know how he got "the word" out there...

Winston first referred to it in a speech he gave in mid-June (I believe it was to Greypower). On the next sitting week he gave further comment to the media and was definitely selling it as a compromise acceptable…

Meanwhile, Jordan makes the expected post and his regular hostile commentators get completely bizarre. Certainly entertaining.

Not even that, Russell – "Yo bitch iz a fat old-digger! Yeah! Well, yo bitch iz a lying nappy hobag!" If I want to listen to this crap, I believe there are any number…

promote it to all and sundry as the perfect compromise

?

And how and where could I (for example) have found it?

I did go looking.

... maybe I'm a bad sleuth.

I'd LOVE to know how he got "the word" out there...

Pick up the phone and ask for it.

That's surely not how parties are briefed about legislation that's up for debate, is it?

Educate me.

Look. As a mere stakeholder I can appreciate how flabbergastingly difficult it has been to receive real and current information – either by default or…

Read into that what you will.

Thanks Felix. Very useful. I'll update the post in the morning.

Meanwhile, Jordan makes the expected post and his regular hostile commentators get completely bizarre. Certainly entertaining.

I vote for "Jandal"

FFS, is this the way they plan to run a government?

You mean stumbling from one deception to the next in a desperate drive to maintain and consolidate power? Meh. Ever seen them run one any other way?

However it turns out he did not show a written version of his SOP to any political party. I did a ring around the…

just chill out

where's my natural therapeutic valium?

I think everyone (and that includes Cullen and King) needs to take a deep breath and just chill out.

I agree.

FFS, is this the way they plan to run a government?

Well, Russell, I certainly hope the next National-lead Government isn't going to be playing quite the same silly buggers with the Opposition we've seen recently. If there's a hell of a lot of toxicity and flat out paranoia on…