I would support an long term effort to teach parents, and prospective parents, the skills they need to raise their kids properly. What I do not support, at this stage at least, is a smacking ban that will be imposed before such an effort is undertaken.

I'm…

Unless Riddley can demonstrate to me that smacking is genuinely harmful to children, I don't accept that there is a liberal justification for this legislation.

This, from the Social Policy Journal of New Zealand last March, might be a start:

Research findings about the effects of physical punishment…

mostly because some people keep trying to pretend its about smacking, which is never was

I believe that legislation should mean what it says. It seems to me that you haven't grasped the distinction between criminalisation and prosecutorial discretion. The purpose and effect of the proposed s.59(2) and (3)…

i presume Weston, you actually meant oppose the bill right?
the poll i heard 85% agreed with was worded something like
"Is it acceptable to smack a child when they are naughty?"
Which was then mysteriously confabulated to "85% of NZers…

Whatever the merits of their position may be, I don't see how supporters of this bill can evade [the] criticism [that they just want to interfere in other people's families].

This isn't a criticism of the bill. Sure, it will involve 'interference' in families, but as it turns out, we…

I'm not at all concerned about you quoting Professor Waldron, but it would be good if you could tell us how you see the quote applying to the current situation in NZ

I intended to say that it is often unhelpful to reduce genuine differences of opinion to…

Far be it from me to tell people how to raise their kids, but I've said it before, and I'll say it again – life is about connection, and as a teacher, I can change one…

ah Weston, there is a good reason why the left doesn't rely on the Herald for its political strategy.

National's polling is apparently...

surely we don't need to even…

Actually, Weston, that would be an opinion.

Some quick research has uncovered that Sue Bradford may, in fact, not be "a dick". She is a real person with thoughts and feelings that are entitled to respect.

I regret any hurt or confusion my comments may have caused.

Sue Bradford is a dick. Fact.

Actually, Weston, that would be an opinion.

Without rehashing the arguments for and against, this is a debate that the bill's supporters…

hmm, from the Maxim Institute right?

I thought we'd moved well beyond that

Well I can't imagine why anyone would get the feeling we're relitigating the same old arguments and misinformation done…

Police have told a Feilding mum that if she is caught lightly smacking her children after Section 59 of the Crimes Act is repealed, she will be reported to the Child Youth and Family Service (CYFS).

"CYFS seems to have so much power," said mother-of-eight Sandra…

One would hope that you wouldn't need to, though why you compare a 2 yeard old child with your colleague is beyond me. You probably don't spoon feed your colleague or tell him he must be in…

If it really was designed to only stop abuse (or, make it prosecutable), why the increadibly strong reluctance to define anything as reasonaable or non-criminal?

I would presume, that abuse is already reasonably well defined legally, particularly by case law.

The problem with section 59 (or, one of them) is…

Thanks Leo, I just loved the space invaders clip. I can't help but think of how hard it must have been to make, I mean getting students to sit in the right place in the lecture theatre????

cheers
Bart

You know, I've heard that claim (and read a couple of shocking examples of such cases) numerous times in the past few weeks. So what do you make of this?

I say…

Bart wrote: "currently the police say (using very careful language because they don't want to lose their jobs) they simply don't bother trying to prosecute anything but the most disgusting cases of abuse".
I'm not sure what you base that comment on unless of course you regard…

As far as I'm aware, and I could be wrong, no child has ever been hospitalised or died from a light smack to the bottom or hand.

That's probably true.

As far as I'm aware, no adult has, either. But, oddly enough, I'm not allowed to wander about my workplace…

"Fair enough. But do you trust the "scary loons" to know the meaning of reasonable force?"

Wasnt this the exact reason for the Chester Borrows amendment?

I'm prepared to accept that when this bill passes, or if it passed with the Chester Borrows amendment (now essentially dead), that the actual…

I'm not sure what you base that comment on unless of course you regard smacking as child…

It's Friday, Ridldley, and I don't really have the time or the energy to start writing you a reality check about the amount of domestic violence, child abuse and other violent crimes that are perpetuated by…

Russell, you've identified TWO or maybe THREE individuals. Nice distraction from the issue though.

Not at all, Russell. Then again, there are some folks of my acquaintance who don't know the meaning of 'moderate alcohol consumption' – which may suggest many things, but I'm far from sure it's much of…

Since when did an MP whom wasn't even elected to parliament get to tell me how to bring up my kids?

That argument especially scrunches my panties! I heard a similar argument recently: "I don't like MMP because half the MPs are expected to toe the party line instead of…

oh i love it when people use that line. i just so wish they would, we'd all be so much happier for it.

Let's say "belaboured."

I don't want to go into great detail because goodness knows we've thrashed this subject. Briefly, no, I don't trust them, but neither do I think the proposed legislation is the right way to assuage that…

All of these references may be interesting but they're irrelevant. Even Walter Mitty wouldn't expect that our rate of child abuse is going to improve if this bill is passed. Let's be intellectually honest about the debate.

In all honesty I believe it will have an effect. At…

As noted in other threads I'm against it. And I don't like the fact that scary loons agree with me for whatever bizarre reasons of their own. But that's a necessary outcome of having principles.

Otherwise, I'd never take up water colour painting, because Hitler did too.

Fair enough. But…

Well it's nice unless, as indicated by some coments, you are a grinch,

Fair enough, I guess what I was getting at is the fact that people on both sides of this argument seem to have gotten tied up in the 'us against them' mentality, without really giving too much thought to the likely actual implications of the bill (which I think…

Otherwise, I'd never take up water colour painting, because Hitler did too.

Well, yeah, you are missing something.

Parents are able to do all manner of things with kids, potentially dangerous things which can and do cause kids…

I actually think that's a rather stupid straw man argument from all sides. I'm no anarchist, but nor do I think the state has a legitimate interest in regulating every aspect of your life Parliamentarians find distasteful or 'weird'. . I will be interested to see how many MPs…

You don't have to say anything thats actually false to be misleading, you can just be selective about your material. Lets have another look at those Herald comments:

Since when did an MP whom wasn't even elected to parliament get to tell me how to bring up…

What I really can't fathom is all of the opponents of the bill…

Too kind, Russell. Can I just say here that I don't lump you as an opponent of the Iraq War in with the photogenic anti-Semitic loons that seem to attach themselves to every anti-war rally out there?…