Good lord. I agree with Ralston.

Yes but there's another subtext. Ralston agrees with you that the venue/conference was legitimate; but then he goes on to suggest Clark kowtowed to popular opinion, forcing Street to eat the words she said the day before in defence of her ministry.

Once again the…

Oh apologies, I didn't realise this blog was only for like minded liberals

Yeah, because Craig and Russell have been real like minded on this topic.

Is it the first salvo in a class war.

I read it more as how a lot of people like to feel scandalised. There’s a nicely visceral pay-off to be had with faux scandals. Has the added bonus of not requiring time consuming attention to details.

Instant opinion and so…

I slogged my…

But too flash, I gather, for appearances. Especially when you're "racking up a bill" rather than simply paying for meals and accomodation and conferebce facilities.

All future HNZC retreats will be held in unrefurbished, vacant rural houses.

Che, sorry mate but sounds like you just never got invited to the right parties :)

heh. it's funny 'cause it's true.

Stalag Fairfax isn't behaving much better

It's worth noting that that story is actually quite different from last night's version of the report, which had the entire budget loaded into an "overnight retreat", which made it seem pretty steep.

But now we find out that it was a two-day conference.…

Saying that you are GST auditors from IRD on a fraud training course has always been a favourite.

Yes! Please – everyone, can you do this from now on?

Che, sorry mate but sounds like you just never got invited to the right parties :)

is kupe street the same one that was burned to the ground before the 5[summin'] royal visit?

1953 Royal visit. Hmm I've heard of somthing like that but can't find any reference to Orakei. I did find this.

[[http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/culture/royal-visit-of-1953-54/the-queen-and-the-maori-people | "The Queen had been in the country less than 40…

you know, to stop the queen having to see "the maoris" living in squalor?

The houses subsequently vested in the Ngati Whatua of Orakei Maori Trust Board by the 1978 Act

From Here

Oh apologies, I didn't realise this blog was only for like minded liberals

It's not. But I suggest you stop purporting to be someone you're not.

I don't know which is worse: uncritically regurgitating media releases, or resorting to reporting website puffery.

When I'm not fighting crime by night I'm a mild-mannered researcher during the day. Even I wouldn't be caught cutting and pasting like that. it only takes a second to delete the puffery and…

The Herald appear to have been stung by this criticism and have added some research-like components to their story:

I don't know which is worse: uncritically regurgitating media releases, or resorting to reporting website puffery.

Speaking of uncritical regurgitation, I heard John Key with Havoc on bfm this morning. He…

Lost your way, "Dot"?. You want Kiwiblog (do a U-turn and it's last on the right).

Oh apologies, I didn't realise this blog was only for like minded liberals

Move along, nothing to see

The Herald appear to have been stung by this criticism and have added some research-like components to their story

and stung they should be. both government and opposition are doing their jobs. the herald on the other hand is just leaving itself open to accusations of being a mouthpiece.

the…

i'll admit to failing to see how that moveable feast of an argument relates back to the issue of the herald not doing its research...

The Herald appear to have been stung by this criticism and have added some research-like components to their story:

Nestled in the Mangatawhiri Valley, the…

She sure did. Brutal.

Then again, there's part of me that has to give Street and Wilkinson Priscilla snaps up for fronting in the House, rather than finding a blank Sudoku in their desk drawer requiring urgent attention.

Now you're getting waspish, Craig. Funny, but waspish.

Not waspish at all. I'm talking about my better half, and come July 1st I'm not anticipating the new proprietors of the Company Formerly Known As Toll New Zealand having their re-orientation briefings held any where other than in-house. Roll on the…

No, Maryan Street got fed to the Omnibus of Doom by the Minister of State Services and the Prime Minister.

She sure did. Brutal.

Now you're getting waspish, Craig.

true.

i'll admit to failing to see how that moveable feast of an argument relates back to the issue of the herald not doing its research...

I'm beginning to wonder if one of the reasons this kind of story "has legs" in NZ is a sustained sense of grievance among much of the population,

i'm inclined to think that's exactly it. luxurience is something a great number of new zealanders seem to think they're entitled to.…

I've long thought this kind of sentiment…

If information is available on a website or in an annual report, etc, can a department answer OIA requests or Parliamentary questions by telling the questioner to go look at the website or whatever?

Yes, at least for the OIA. Section 18(d) allows them to refuse requests on the…

6. Maryan Street didn't throw HNZC's CEO under the bus and loudly sound off about demanding explanations, having accepted that there wasn't much to explain.

No, Maryan Street got fed to the Omnibus of Doom by the Minister of State Services and the Prime Minister.

And I wonder if there's…

Actually, that one, a "one night retreat" under a different CEO five years ago, does look like somebody taking the piss.

John Key, August 16 2007.

I'd suggest that…

And if you believe John Key, any views held or actions taken back then are, in his own words, "fish and chip paper".

i'm thinking that some agencies might not be realising that it is election year...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4563424a10.html

When at HNZC, on the odd occasion we were out on the town on a post event piss up, if anyone asked, we worked for MSD.

...

as in, "my tax cuts will finally give me that luxurient lifestyle i've been dreaming of"

My humour for the evening, since the…

(Yalta, Potsdam and Tehran were all held in places sufficiently close to the USSR for Stalin, who didn't believe in foreign junketing. NZ PM Fraser didn't attend Yalta, preferring to remain in his electorate…

The first retreat under Labour was a god-awful budget job, set in a wind-swept motel in Snells Beach. Possibly a nice place in summer, but dull as…

And was this over a weekend?
if it was the public service got 2 days of work from their staff for free ;)

You wouldn't catch me giving up my weekend to drive to Taupo and watch powerpoints. That's a bus that would be getting seriously missed. I'd tell them…

Make them bunk together next time.

...facetime is important.

So you're saying this was a conference with plenty of facetime to synergise about repurposing the Mission Statement so as to improve deliverables to key stakeholders? ;-P

Yep, sounds like damn near every conference I've attended (including those I've spoken at, and yes, almost always…

D'you reckon, what with the Bailey Kurariki beat-up, that "luxury" is this year's word?

I feel the Four Yorkshiremen sketch coming on. It would suit perfectly the posturing fatuity of those exemplars of frugality and clear-sighted common sense, APN.

In any case, I must admit that I'd be prone to…

D'you reckon, what with the Bailey Kurariki beat-up, that "luxury" is this year's word?

we've been using "luxurient" around here for a while.

as in, "my tax cuts will finally give me that luxurient lifestyle i've been dreaming of".

6. Maryan Street didn't throw HNZC's CEO under the bus and loudly sound off about demanding explanations, having accepted that there wasn't much to explain.

Okay, scratch that. Street has now (having presumably had a visit from the damage-control mandarins) changed tack and said the conference was "not a good…

There are plenty of senior school teachers, nurses and doctors who deserve quarterly team-building sessions at the island resort of their choice, but they don't get it.

but they would jump at the chance were they offered it.

craig, you seem to be arguing on one hand that you'd like…

OK, if you'll pay Kate Wilkinson the same courtesy and say she's been on the receiving end of a "beat up" quite explicitly and gleefully driven by Trevor Mallard. That would be utter bullshit as well, but fair's fair.

At least there was something at stake in the Kiwisaver whoopsie.…

OK, if you'll pay Kate Wilkinson the same courtesy and say she's been on the receiving end of a "beat up" quite explicitly and gleefully driven by Trevor Mallard. That would be utter bullshit as well, but fair's fair.

criticising a minister for doing his job, and criticising a half-arsed…

If I was working at that level as public service or private sector, it's the minimum treatment I would expect for my skills and services.

There are plenty of senior school teachers, nurses and doctors who deserve quarterly team-building sessions at the island resort of their choice, but they don't…

If you mean Dept Building & Housing – it was probably the Ministry of Housing in those days.

I meant district health board — you sometimes needed a whiteboard and lots of different coloured pens to keep the mutating acronyms straight. :)

I know health has always been (and probably always…

It's not as though the HNZC were dressing up as shepherds and nymphs at the Petit Trianon for crying out loud

Wait for reports of their Christmas party to surface....

how about you practice some of that calling a spade a spade you're so proud of and recognise this story for what it is, a media beat-up?

OK, if you'll pay Kate Wilkinson the same courtesy and say she's been on the receiving end of a "beat up" quite explicitly…

But, as I said, many other people in Wgton are very grateful to HNZC for taking centrestage.

they should have said they were from MSD. Don't they know anything?

I see Craig has beaten me to it, but it's a point worth re-stating: Why couldn't this have been done by video conference?

i get teleconferencing when it's a silly old power point, but what if it was a team building and training event?
for a team spread across the…

David Farrar has dutifully tried to gin up this one as WINZ Conference Mk II ... but several of his readers report that they've been to the lodge and it is not particularly flash as these things go.

Which makes the Herald's story even more absurd.

Then,…

On that basis, it'd be cheapest to publish as much data as client privacy would allow, wouldn't it?

MPs are a suspicious lot, some will ask the same questions, to which the answers are freely available in the annual report or website, just to see if the answers match.

They…

If information is available on a website or in an annual report, etc, can a department answer OIA requests or Parliamentary questions by telling the questioner to go look at the website or whatever?

Yep they can. Although they have to follow the correct procedure & formall yanswer "The member is…

there's too many for my liking that are just an excuse to socialize, get rip-roaring drunk, and then try not to vomit during your presentation the next morning.

sure. but there are two questions you want to attach to that statement.

1. is this any different to the private sector?…

1. How many people...

If information is available on a website or in an annual report, etc, can a department answer OIA requests or Parliamentary questions by telling the questioner to go look at the website or whatever?

On that basis, it'd be cheapest to publish as much data as…

Dealing with the local DHB (or whatever the hell they were called in the mid-ish 90's) during my brief and inglorious career as a provincial hack,

Oh that reminds me (and I posted but a CBD power cut (2nd in as many weeks – a sign of thing to COME!)…

there's too many for my liking that are just an excuse to socialize, get rip-roaring drunk, and then try not to vomit during your presentation the next morning.

Orgy on Taxes! Pictures at Six!

(note to editors: any old suits-with-drinks conference file footage will do.)

From living in Christchurch & the centre of anything is in Wellington or Auckland, it is really good to meet the boss, et al.

__Dealing with the local DHB (or whatever the hell they were called in the mid-ish 90's) during my brief and inglorious career as a provincial hack,

If you mean Dept Building & Housing – it was probably the Ministry of Housing in those days.

I think Craig might have meant District…

Excepting, presumably, Fonterra, Telecom, Aventis, ANZ, Solar Turbines, Tertra Pak and Toyota, who all choose the same five-star luxury lodge in Taupo as the "APN team" does.

Tane at The Standard got some costings. Conclusion? HNZC couldn't have got even a basic hotel and venue much cheaper than they got…

The way the media – especially editorial writers and columnists – have cover the state…

Dealing with the local DHB (or whatever the hell they were called in the mid-ish 90's) during my brief and inglorious career as a provincial hack,

If you mean Dept Building & Housing – it was probably the Ministry of Housing in those days.

If you mean HNZC in those days,…

And perhaps most people in the public sector get that public scrutiny goes with the territory, and aren't quite so bloody precious about it.

we live with public scrutiny of our actions every day craig.

how about you practice some of that calling a spade a spade you're so proud…

Most of us who've been to conferences know that the information delivered by endless hours of PowerPoint could just as easily have been done online.

Getting to…

White at IBM and AT&T, I used to attend conferences all over NZ, in Australia, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan. I never once heard a shareholder carping about the cost or the media highlighting waste.

How long ago was that — because I don't think it's a bad thing at…

Excepting, presumably, Fonterra, Telecom, Aventis, ANZ, Solar Turbines, Tertra Pak and Toyota, who all choose the same five-star luxury lodge in Taupo as the "APN team" does.

I nearly bit at this one too. As someone who now works in the Corporate Learning industry & who sees what a lot of…

when i was at IRD we had two dockets for drinks at the christmas party. total cost? $8.

To save the dept money when at dinner after some "Future Leaders" workshop (the luxurious Overses Terminal), our group of 6 or so deputised me to go to New World & get wine…

It is mainly in the public sector these sort of faddish bonding sessions still happening – most corporates got bored with them in 90’s

Excepting, presumably, Fonterra, Telecom, Aventis, ANZ, Solar Turbines, Tertra Pak and Toyota, who all choose the same five-star luxury lodge in Taupo as the "APN team"…

Well during my tenure HNZC were lauded for their transparency, speed & enthusiasm for answering all the PQs & OIAs they could.

Andrew, I'm very sure you were the very paragon of animals. Dealing with the local DHB (or whatever the hell they were called in the mid-ish 90's) during my brief…

Your questions – wanting a breakdown of waiting lists – might well ave been answered there were 10 families on the waiting list ... when there were also 10 on the B waiting list and a further 10 on the C.

We'd report that as a matter of course each…

I'm always amazed by how tight a leash even relatively senior public servants are on with respect to entertainment expenses

when i was at IRD we had two dockets for drinks at the christmas party. total cost? $8.

the food was a buffet however, in petone. your average buffet will…

There were 6 highly paid analyst programmers in my team alone pretty much answering PQs & OIA, and…

a variety of shadow spokesmen ... would also ask numerous questions which could be asked in one

I suspect that's either the MP (or their researcher) learning from experience that many questions that could be asked as one get answered as one without anywhere close to the information actually sought.…

No-one should have to apologise for the costs of holding government to account.

In theory I'd agree, in practice though, and while the majority of MPs (or their staff most likely) are not like this, there are some who ask questions, and ask in such a manner as to create…

Some wag might wish to tot up the total cost of Phil Heatley's questions for the year.

They might want to, but it would be a beat up. No-one should have to apologise for the costs of holding government to account. It's a basic part of our constitutional system, and…

Indeed, Russell. Even better, why don't we just do away with oral or written questions, repeal the Official Information Act and then do a front page rant about how fraking lazy and thoroughly useless MPs like Heatley are?

I didn't say that. It would be as silly as pretending you're…

And I don't know about you, but I'd quite like some 'wag' to do some digging and name and shame government departments, and Ministers, who would be doing us all a favour if they just complied with the Official Information Act and it's "principle of availability."

Well during my tenure…

HNZC helped answer 577 Parliamentary questions, many of which will have been exquisitely political in nature

Is that all? When I was their Information Manager, I'd see 45 PQs cross my desk each month – those were requests for operational stats – waiting lists, vacancy rates et al. Then there…

Some wag might wish to tot up the total cost of Phil Heatley's questions for the year.

Indeed, Russell. Even better, why don't we just do away with oral or written questions, repeal the Official Information Act and then do a front page rant about how fraking lazy and thoroughly…

Thinking back some of the company parties were down right hedonistic, ahh the good times.

I mean, is the head of the IRD buying you a drink going to help persuade you to send more business their way?

I wouldn't say no!

"Otherwise, wouldn't Foo Camps be conducted online?"

Well, I'll leave that up to the Foo Campers. But when I was a regular attendee at National Party conferences, there's sure no substitute for F2F interfacing when it comes to gossip, intrigue and self-inflicted alcohol poisoning. (There was also the practicalities of…

"entertainment expenses" are tax deductible because they are (supposed to be) a cost of your business ingratiating itself with customers and possible customers.... its a form of advertising....

In general, government departments dont have to advertise for customers... I mean, is the head…

I want to know why they need a conference to discuss 'customer service'.

If they are anything like WINZ, then hell yeah!

Housing NZ do a lot of video conferencing, their 3 National Offices are (were 3 years ago anyway) set up for it & it gets used routinely & widely.

HNZC are by no means a profligate organisation – there's very little racking up of entertainment on corporate credit cards. Very little entertainment…

The real story here is that this type of pointless beat up always ends up costing the taxpayer more – communications advisors, all-conferences-in-Wellington from now on, the meeting / enquiry that will inevitably be called on the topic...

Quite. Last year, HNZC helped answer 577 Parliamentary questions, many of which…

I want to know why they need a conference to…

The extra cost comes from an extended process to buy stuff (in case there is a media beat up) and padding to…

Teleconferencing definitely has its uses

Housing NZ do a lot of video conferencing, their 3 National Offices are (were 3 years ago anyway) set up for it & it gets used routinely & widely.

HNZC are by no means a profligate organisation – there's very little racking up of entertainment on corporate…

Teleconferencing definitely has its uses, but there's no replacement for actual facetime. Otherwise, wouldn't Foo Camps be conducted online ?

Well, I'll leave that up to the Foo Campers. But when I was a regular attendee at National Party conferences, there's sure no substitute for F2F interfacing when it comes…

According to its last annual report, HNZC manages a portfolio of more than 200,000 properties worth more than $15 billion.

Last year, it banked an operating surplus of $13 million. A more robust story could have asked why that was, and whether the cash could…

So they should deliberately seek out somewhere that, whilst no cheaper, is notably scuzzier.

Rich: I attended a rather pleasant wedding at the Tongariro Lodge, which was meticulously kept when I was there. My house is "notably scuzzier", but I guess that has more to do with the fact that…

Sorry if this offends you, Russell, but if I was a HNZ manager signing off on the proposal for this event, you bet your arse I'd be raising a red flag around the venue.

And I bet that the key factor would have been total cost. Seems to me they…

Perhaps the choice of venue wasn't the wisest?

So they should deliberately seek out somewhere that, whilst no cheaper, is notably scuzzier.

Mind you, almost all corporate conferences and retreats are big no-ops, in my experience. The main cost isn't the accomodation so much as the lost time ($500 a…

Sorry, I don't buy that, and I don't believe Housing NZ staff have to meet in a cardboard box for show purposes.

You forgot the stale bread, stagnant water and team-building heavy bondage I'd dish out to those poor petals, Russell.

Sorry if this offends you, Russell, but if I…

There's a cure for cancer?

If newspaper editors would only work for free, there'd be a cure tomorrow.

Dot, who did not want to give her surname, says she has been asking HNZ for years for a bigger house than her current place in Kupe St, Orakei, where she has lived for eight years.

...

"All my family lives on the street, I'm not going anywhere."

She wants…

Agree Russell this is a beat up. That is in no way excessive for a conference for ~100 people

Cheap shot at APN though, they can do what they like with their money, it's not mine.

Of course. But there's an undeniable irony in APN's flagship paper affecting a blue…

You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to link this bit of political deflection with National's gaffe over Kiwisaver and wonder how much comparing of notes there actually is between the Herald and the National Party these days.

I suspect it has more to do with National having a…

Um, yes you do Tom. If The Herald is sucking John Key's cock, nobody told John Armstrong. His column today was withering, and much as I hate to say it is pretty fair.

Indeed. I'd further observe that Armstrong's column focused on a matter of policy that will affect every…

How many children with cancer would an editor's salary cure?

There's a cure for cancer?

I heard a story once that a government department costed a conference and worked out it would be cheaper to send everyone to fiji.

They couldn't possibly send everyone to Fiji, so they called off the conference.

Well, if that's true (and I wouldn't be in the least surprised if…

They couldn't possibly send everyone to Fiji, so they called off the conference.

You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to link this bit of political deflection with National's gaffe over Kiwisaver and wonder how much comparing of notes there actually is between the Herald and the National Party these days.

Um, yes you do Tom. If The Herald is sucking John…

But the same staff could go to a third-party conference or seminar in Wellington costing twice that and no one would bat an eyelid. It's not about the cost, really.

Indeed, I attended a conference in downtown Auckland last year that was $550 for two days, and that didn't include…

Cheap shot at APN though, they can do what they like with their money, it's not mine.

This tells a story though....

"All my family lives on the street, I'm not…

There's the rub.

$65,000 / 94 people / 2 days = $345 per person per day.

But the same staff could go to a third-party conference or seminar in Wellington costing twice that and no one would bat an eyelid. It's not about the cost, really.

And again, when you…

I'm sure my landlord spends a shed-load that they could otherwise be spending on the house I live in, but guess what? They don't! Nor do I bemoan the…

And how cheap would a conference have to be to avoid a huge front-page headline in the New Zealand Herald reading Luxury for state house staff?

There's the rub.

$65,000 / 94 people / 2 days = $345 per person per day.

I'd put that in the "neither excessive nor…