It's not much of a conspiracy though is it

To steal a good quote else: Clearly it is that world view shared by Noam Chomsky, Richard Perle, Stephen Gould and Steve Pinker, Arnold Schoenberg and Jack Benny.

(From http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/05/how_to_destroy_wikipedia.php#comment-433743 )

US evangelical lobbying. Jesus isn't going to come back on his own, you know

You said a mouthful there. One thing I worry about is what happens after they hold an apocalyptic war and Jesus doesn't come back. Whose fault will _ _that_ _ be do we think?

All that…

The funny thing is that the very hard line taken by AIPAC is not at all representative of US Jewish opinion when polled. I would suggest that what Simon sees as Jewish lobbying is better characterised as US evangelical lobbying.

I think I said or implied such. But AIPAC is…

self-hating Jew

Boy, I hate that label too. It's one of those shut-down-the-argument-and-go-home things. Once it's brought out it's time to give up.

Don't blame the Jews for the hijacking, Joe. "Antisemitism" is a 19th century German coinage

I don't, Stephen. It does bug the hell out of me to hear Chomsky, for example, tarred as a self-hating Jew, as if he's somehow broken ranks by being an independent thinker.
Point taken about…

Iranians, by the way, are largely not Semites at all. At least, about half the people who live in Iran now are…

It's a pity the term Zionist got derailed from the original Jewish and Christian groups who campaigned for the state of Israel in the late 19th century to a nutty anti-Semetic/conspiracy theorist term of abuse, because it was a neat way of encapulating said groups.

(Sigh) Yes, and while this…

The funny thing is that the very hard line taken by AIPAC is not at all representative of US Jewish opinion when polled.

Indeed, since the Jewish vote has always gone to the Dems. I'd add that AIPAC (and the crazier evangelicals for that matter) has had little influence on…

Simon sees as Jewish lobbying is better characterised as US evangelical lobbying. Jesus isn't going to come back on his own, you know.

It's a pity the term Zionist got derailed from the original Jewish and Christian groups who campaigned for the state of Israel in the late 19th century…

to be the result of a Jewish conspiracy.

It's not much of a conspiracy though is it, when it's out in the open! AIPAC are very effective lobbyists, but there's nothing covert about them.

The funny thing is that the very hard line taken by AIPAC is not at all…

Imagine the confusion if American, Christian and Anglo Saxon were used almost interchangably...to me, that's the situation we have with Israel/Judaism/being Jewish.

What, you mean like the way everyone with white skin in NZ is supposed to call themselves a European?

groveled to Israel of recent. The Republicans don't need to, we know where they stand.

What, as the last group of politicians to attempt to moderate Israeli behaviour? It was Bush senior who threatened to remove some of the huge subsidy paid to Israel unless they stopped the "facts on…

What we discussed at length, but didn't really resolve, was the difference between a) the State of Israel; b) Judaism as a religion; and c) being Jewish.…

...the way Edwards, Clinton and Obama have all groveled to Israel of recent.

This is where I find the debate about Israel swerves into some strange territory.

Might it not be that case that Edwards, Clinton, Obama etc actually support Israel because they, like most US politicians of whatever ethnicity…

It will take twice as long for an Israeli-Palestinian solution — and that's discounting the regional emergence of nuclear weaponry.

As an American, I'd be mightily ashamed of the way Edwards, Clinton and Obama have all groveled to Israel of recent. The Republicans don't need to, we know where they…

On the other hand, I do find the relentless attacks on the man, that make reference to…

And are you one of them? How does that work, exactly?

I think its rather more complicated and mutual than that, but there are, as I said, many who think the AIPAC, controlled as it is by far right Jewish interests, and in bed with conservative Christian and certain elements…

If you keep him talking long enough he just might argue eloquently, cogently, convincingly for and against every position on earth.

But if there is one thing i…

His diahrettical style (I just made it up so I'll spell it how I fancy) means he'll shit over anything anywhere anyplace.

But in the process his searing contrarian viewpoint gets lost.

He has one of those rare eyes that sees patterns other people don't. And…

Ok...it was a theory of Copeland's reasoning not my personal opinion but thank you for implying I must be on drugs because of that statement. Very productive.

Copeland [...] provides a clear centre-right choice for voters rather than the 'centre-power' choice that is Dunne.

Right. Because pro-death penalty, pro-jailing homosexuals, both Future New Zealand policies last time round, are "centre right" positions in New Zealand.

Can I have some of your crack?

you seem to be seeking to change the subject

Not as I see it, but then I would say that, wouldn't I?

Break a (tripod) leg and have fun.

Now, rather than acknowledging that your initial question was a little silly, you seem to be seeking to change the subject, and in all honesty I'm not sure I've got the…

Even though Dunne is fickle and power driven enough to decide to support Key next election that isn't a sure bet.…

WTFOMGBBQ, means what the f*ck oh my god barbeque

It's a satirical comment on acronyms.

Why don't you have a look and see what you think?

Because one MP in their own party has a whole lot more influence than one MP in a party of six. This depends on luck and…

What's the difference between MEMRI cherry-picking exteme statements, and sonic cherry-picking Hitchens?

... I guess the difference would be that one is cherry-picking one person, another an entire culture. If one person says enough silly things consistently then cherry-picking is – while a bit harsh – still a fairly valid…

although there are many who would claim the reverse is more accurate

And are you one of them? How does that work, exactly?

I do not wish to be killed,

Especially not for such silly reasons.

Israel is a US proxy, washington decides its policy.

although there are many who would claim the reverse is more accurate

Some comments about MEMRI from Wikipedia and the complete MEMRI Wikipedia entry here.

I'm not taking sides,…

The reason they are awful is their antisemitism and no more need be said.

Speaking as a Jew (and one who has lived in the West Midlands and has family in Edgbaston), if someone is preaching in a Birmingham mosque that "the Jews, you kill them physically", then I hope…

Iraq's universities near terminal collapse.

Yes, Iraq is following the fine examples of long-term economic meltdown such as Bangladesh, Fiji and Zimbabwe; namely middle class exodus and intellectual genocide.

That's some really good invective.

As part of the Vanity Fair interview with Hitchens the interviewer as part of a question says –

Lawrence Wright says in his one-man show, "My Trip to al-Qaeda," that getting along with women is a large part of what civilization is about.

Quite an interesting observation.

It's a bloody…

I guess the following will happen…

I don't consider his move to be a cynical one, rather I believe it's a fair political strategy – but that's my explanation for why the rationale he's offered doesn't bear close scrutiny

Well said ! Your explanation seems very sound to me.

Lawrence Wright says in his one-man show, "My Trip to al-Qaeda," that getting along with women is a large part of what civilization is about.

Quite an interesting observation.

The Times has…

marvellous

Are you really John Campbell?

I don't believe he's said it is, I was merely formulating a soundbite-friendly response to someone's suggestion that there couldn't be a principle behind Copeland's move.

The principle of non-interference with family life, to which no-one may in fact adhere, is a principle upon which someone…

Or his principle is that the Government shouldn't interfere in NZer's family lives.

I assume he'll be campaigning to repeal compulsory school attendance so kids can be put out to support the family at 12, like my grandad.

After all, it's interefering in family lives to force me to keep…

And while "alliance" is moot, "united" is close to deceptive advertising

For that matter, so is "future."

also re chronicle of higher education article on iraqi professors being shot up reminds me of hitler burning books,…

Oh, and this: Salon: Tinky Winky says bye-bye to Jerry Falwell

Alliance/ Progressives/ whatever they ended up being called

FWIW, the Alliance is still called the Alliance, and the Progressive party is still called Jim.

The First United Future of New Zealand Party
Or
The Future for New Zealand United party
Or
The United New Zealand First party

or

Co- leaders of course (just like the greens)

lazy $5 bucks…

Each of us in United Future have had the privilege, unlike those in the Labour party and, after the compromise, in the National party, of actually being able to follow our conscience.

So naturally he left.

(He might have said…

a welfare state is one that gives you money to raise your children, a Nanny state is one that tells you how to raise your children

So New Zealand became a Nanny State in 1877 with the passing of the Education Act, making children's education compulsory.

Is that figure still 80%? will it be in 6 months? will be interesting

Will probably go the way of the prostitution reform and Civil Union bills. Eg eveyone forgets about them and moves on to the next slight on "family" values.

Or his principle is that the Government shouldn't interfere in NZer's family lives. And he doesn't want to be a member of a political party that doesn't hold to that principle.

If that were true then he should resign from politics altogether. All parties want to (and do) interfere in…

Or his principle is that the Government shouldn't interfere in NZer's family lives.

Copeland? Really? Guess it depends on your definition of 'family'.

Is that figure still 80%? will it be in 6 months? will be interesting

Was it ever really 80% – how much confidence do we have in these polls to be true representations of the NZ public? Personally I always take those types of polls with a…

Or his principle is that the Government shouldn't interfere in NZer's family lives. And he doesn't want to be a member of a political party that doesn't hold to that principle.

heh. If he doesn't want to interfere in people's lives, he shouldn't be a politician!

If Copeland wants to fight the bill, that's fine. But to say that he is resigning on PRINCIPLE is false.

Or his principle is that the Government shouldn't interfere in NZer's family lives. And he doesn't want to be a member of a political party that doesn't hold to that…

In this sense, his defection is more akin to how the Greens left the Alliance – we won't be standing with you at the…

Roger: Israel is a US proxy, washington decides its policy.

To quote Graham Copeland: "i need to be in a party which listens to the ppl of nz, who are 80% opposed to the anti smacking bill…

True. Neither position is absurd, alone. But together they are.

Copeland's stated reason for leaving UF is this "principle".

He is forming a new (old) party, joining Baldock, the referendum campaigner, who works with the likes of Family First. Here's their position (just one example of many):

Media Release:…

Sorry, I have a BIG issue with the behaviour of NZ MP's when they decide they dont wanna play the party game anymore.

I…

http://www.accesshollywood.com/news/ah5356.shtml?dst=rss|general_rss

If I may shamelessly link

http://christopherhitchenswatch.blogspot.com/2007/05/lies-and-lying-liar-who-tells-them-part.html

I am amused Russell does this reflecrt your own spin?

If by "spin", you mean "point of view", I guess it does.

Nothing, apart from…

But the opponents of the bill have been arguing FOR a conscience vote, in the belief (probably correct) that it would not have had the numbers, pre-Key/Clark compromise.

Copeland's position is absurd.

This is what you'd have wanted...

His personal opposition was so strong that he was not happy being a member of a political party that did not oppose the bill.

Or he saw the chance to launch a new one based on a single issue where the polls looked good? On Morning Report, that's how it…

IF I voted for UF – and hence got Copland in – and he resigns and quits the party, I want another UF person in there. End of story. I voted for UF, not for him.

If I voted for him – as my electorate mp – and he…

I am amused Russell does this reflecrt your own spin?
I find it funny how the words people use to describe this piece of legislation reflects their view…

What right in a democracy have the rest of us to tell them to stuff off unless they earn enough votes for 6 MPs?

For the same reason we have 120-odd MPs rather than a nation-wide plebescite every time we wish to pass a law; a modicum of practicability. I…

If Field pulls 1% from the conservative christian Pacific Island vote that will have a bigger impact upon Labour than National.

Gordon Copeland is in Parliament because enough people voted for the United Future list so that the top three people on that list would be in Parliament – he's in Parliament, so he's in Parliament – if…

Why isnt he just replaced by the next one on the list

I think the waka-jumping legislation had a finite time limit and no longer exists?

I was a bit confused as to Copeland's reasoning:

1. He was opposed to the Bradford Bill, however he was allowed to vote against…

"Mr Copeland said…

If Taito Philip Field's party pulls a further 1% of the conservative Christian vote, so much the worse.

This depends on where Field pulls it from.

I've little doubt that Future New Zealand with 1 or 2 % of the vote will be to the detriment of a National-led coalition…