Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Garbage in, garbage out

nzlemming

Wed, 19 Nov 2014 13:46:46 +1300

Not the upcoming Freed site? I’m hoping against hope that it’s not Breitbart with a Kiwi accent.

If Slater is involved, your hope is misplaced.

Kumara Republic

Tue, 18 Nov 2014 13:56:53 +1300

Any hints on what organisation this is? :)

Not the upcoming Freed site? I'm hoping against hope that it's not Breitbart with a Kiwi accent.

Rob Stowell

Mon, 17 Nov 2014 17:27:25 +1300

I was talking to an ex-colleague the other day who was running a team creating ‘native media’ that was larger than Mediaworks radio’s news team.
Any hints on what organisation this is? :)

tussock

Mon, 17 Nov 2014 12:12:38 +1300

So, let's say the National Party knows that hanging shit on poor people and nominal criminal types is a reliable vote winner with the swingers. For argument's sake (because it isn't always that way).

Let's say then they wanted to win votes, desperately. To win the election. Which was very…

Moz

Thu, 13 Nov 2014 12:23:52 +1300

As in the News of the World that shut down after getting caught in the phone hacking act?

Yes. There is no connection between profitability and hacking, let me assure you of that ;)

Kumara Republic

Thu, 13 Nov 2014 10:55:41 +1300

Big hint: Rupert’s newspapers mostly lose money, and more news-focussed they are the more they lose – News of the World is kinda profitable, The Australian loses money like a pokie addict.

As in the News of the World that shut down after getting caught in the phone hacking act?

Moz

Thu, 13 Nov 2014 10:50:25 +1300

If, for example, someone set up a new newspaper, TV news venture, or some other form of news, would the general population not support it to the same level as the existing mainstream media?

When Russel finishes playing with his collection of luxury cars I'm sure he'll explain how profitable…

Kumara Republic

Thu, 13 Nov 2014 10:47:46 +1300

NZ media operates in a semi-monopoly and makes a pretence of being non-partisan.

In which case, should it be an issue for the Commerce Commission, instead of the Press Council?

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 13 Nov 2014 10:33:17 +1300

the Spectator or Daily Telegraph

But those are honestly partisan publications operating in a competitive market.

You want old Tory views, you buy the Spec/Torygraph. You want soft liberal views, you buy the Guardian.

NZ media operates in a semi-monopoly and makes a pretence of being non-partisan.

Kumara Republic

Thu, 13 Nov 2014 10:23:51 +1300

Is NZ shifting towards a Fox News style of journalism? I don’t follow Fox (so correct me!), but what I’ve heard of it is that the news is often straight-out facts but it then gets clouded with highly partisan comment that often masquerades as news.

Probably not quite as bad…

izogi

Thu, 13 Nov 2014 10:18:16 +1300

To say the alternative is worse is not a fact. To repeat that mantra is playing into the hands of the liars and cheats.

Is NZ shifting towards a Fox News style of journalism? I don't follow Fox (so correct me!), but what I've heard of it is that the…

Kumara Republic

Thu, 13 Nov 2014 10:15:55 +1300

I think they’re more concerned about spoiling their future career chances. Journalism depends on relationships, and its difficult to do if Ministers refuse to talk to you. And if they’re planning to switch to being a Ministerial press secretary one day, its even more important not to offend their potential…

Angela Hart

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 23:25:39 +1300

Even if we crowd funded a bunch of journalists to fact check and correct the lies and spin being constantly put out, the avenues available to us for disseminating the facts are limited, easily overlooked and easy for power to ignore.

Angela Hart

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 23:18:29 +1300

yup, that's a large part of the problem, the msm repeating lies without checks or corrections, so your average person's understanding is skewed. JK's mantras were and are very effective because they are repeated over and over without challenge, and many people accept them as truth without question.

Andre

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 23:04:09 +1300

I was talking to an ex-colleague the other day who was running a team creating 'native media' that was larger than Mediaworks radio's news team. Money buys content. The political right-wing have more bucks than everyone else and therefore they rule. A friend I was talking to today didn't vote…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 21:05:06 +1300

its even more important not to offend their potential future bosses.

Oh didums. what a croc. How pathetic are they prepared to go just to ensure that one day they may want another job. A pathetic excuse if ever I heard it. Doesn’t any one have any balls in this…

Joe Wylie

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 16:53:18 +1300

There’s quite a big market for stories about Bad things being done to Good people

Yes, Fair Go has been around since I was a kid. Was it even the same guys?

When Nicky Hager spoke in Christchurch shortly after the publication of The Hollow Men he was asked if…

izogi

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 16:46:08 +1300

What you get on PAS is not an average persons interest.They seem to like Slater scum or so the figures are supposed to be (although debatable I’m sure) RB is one of the few people asking questions.

The wider range of ‘average’ people I encounter still aren’t representative of everyone,…

Marc C

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 14:45:32 +1300

You are definitely onto something there, I fear!

Idiot Savant

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 14:45:28 +1300

Another thing to consider: are journos, particularly the Press Gallery, really that scared of getting what Nicky Hager got if they learn too much about certain agendas? It could go a long way to explaining why they go for 'fish in a barrel' issues.

I think they're more concerned about…

Marc C

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 14:43:39 +1300

Looking at the way people shop in supermarkets, they mostly decide on price, not so much on quality. That has been proved so often, and we can witness it also in the high prevalence of the $2 discounter shops in Aoteaoroa.

Always “bargain hunters” the vast majority make compromises on…

Gareth Swain

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 14:20:56 +1300

Thanks for those replies, Sofie, Ben, Marc, et al.

but it seems to require resources to do investigative journalism, and takes time and COSTS

True, true...
In that case, let me re-phrase my question: Is the idea of a news outlet providing a higher standard of journalism for a higher…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 14:18:53 +1300

BenWilson

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 14:15:14 +1300

There’s quite a big market for stories about Bad things being done to Good people

Yes, Fair Go has been around since I was a kid. Was it even the same guys?

Marc C

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 14:00:51 +1300

You would think so, but it seems to require resources to do investigative journalism, and takes time and COSTS. So as the media market here is now largely dominated by privately owned media, who are more than ever dependent on that highly contested advertising revenue, there seems to be too…

mpledger

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 13:59:18 +1300

mpledger said:
One of the things I wish RNZ would do would count the number of times a minister didn’t come on air when asked. Something like “since the last election the the Minister for Justice has been unavailable for interview X times”.

Matthew Poole said
Or, “Since first becoming…

Marc C

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 13:52:41 +1300

Some of the profession are too busy tweeting each other frivolities and suggestions about the newest fad in town, I suspect. While I am not a fan of Paul Henry, he does at times bluntly display the idiocy we have, as last night he showed how a few hours of…

Howard Edwards

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 13:45:00 +1300

The last part of the Herald article is gobsmacking:

The office of Police Minister Michael Woodhouse did not respond to questions as to whether Cabinet needed to consider the matter again. Asked if the minister's office accepted the figures were wrong, a spokesman said: "It is unfortunate that some figures…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 12:45:24 +1300

One of the things I wish RNZ would do would count the number of times a minister didn’t come on air when asked. Something like “since the last election the the Minister for Justice has been unavailable for interview X times”.

Or, "Since first becoming Prime Minister in 2008, John…

Joe Wylie

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 10:50:24 +1300

There’s quite a big market for stories about Bad things being done to Good people, which is fine, but not much market for highly technical stories about policy and how it is made and how it works.

If only the suckers were better informed they'd quit their whining and willingly…

Tinakori

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 10:30:59 +1300

There's quite a big market for stories about Bad things being done to Good people, which is fine, but not much market for highly technical stories about policy and how it is made and how it works. Many, many years ago – when Colin James was the editor – the…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 10:19:46 +1300

There’s a market, but it’s not a mass market.

Wasn't TV1's news division like that before the broadcasting reforms of 1988?

mpledger

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 09:42:01 +1300

One of the things I wish RNZ would do would count the number of times a minister didn't come on air when asked. Something like "since the last election the the Minister for Justice has been unavailable for interview X times". Once people start realising how ofter ministers/pollies are ducking…

BenWilson

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 09:08:50 +1300

Is there not a mainstream market for proper investigative journalism in New Zealand?

There's a market, but it's not a mass market.

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 04:00:55 +1300

If, for example, someone set up a new newspaper, TV news venture, or some other form of news, would the general population not support it to the same level as the existing mainstream media?

It would seem no. New Zealanders earned the name Sheeple a long time ago. Now it…

Gareth Swain

Wed, 12 Nov 2014 01:01:30 +1300

Can I ask a question? I've been overseas for a long time so it's hard to gauge the broader sentiment in New Zealand...

The lack of ability or will among the media to hold politicians and officials to account has been a constant theme here on Public Address, particularly since…

BenWilson

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 22:50:07 +1300

And I’d wager that there might well be a few more stories to be found in interrogating the data that governments and ministers offer to justify their actions.

The way you've phrased that sentence highlights exactly what the problem is.

Be careful calling a wager bollocks

Kiwiiano

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 22:13:09 +1300

What surprises me is that confronted with a Poly who just refuses to answer questions or blatantly prevaricates, so-called journalists just roll over and piss in the air. It should immediately set alarum bells ringing "what is this bastard trying to hide?" "Go for his jugular!!"
To be fair, they…

Sacha

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 21:34:08 +1300

that 25 percent target to get people off benefits, same as with selling up to 20 percent of state housing

Some easy data journalism stories right there, you'd think? No need to 'interview' a Minister or CEO to reveal what those numbers really mean.

If you're ready, journos and editors…

Marc C

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 20:34:01 +1300

Misinformation is the norm, I fear, and our present government, that one since 2008, has transformed media releases and media policy to near perfect, very sophisticated propaganda. The fact that few journalists have the resources, time and experience to dig deeper, is being exploited ruthlessly. David Fisher has the experience,…

andin

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 20:15:54 +1300

empirically based observation in other words.
its still only anecdotal, no matter how you see it, based on your experience.
Numeracy is not occupation based...

Sacha

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 18:34:00 +1300

Pleased to see the Herald investing in some data journalism. And some more.

Tinakori

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 17:54:51 +1300

Broad strokes of the brush based on lots of time in newsrooms and lots of time with people good at numbers, an empirically based observation in other words.

andin

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 17:25:44 +1300

Journalists are notoriously innumerate and people who are good at numbers are not often good writers.
Any other broad strokes of your brush you'd like to share, Hmmm?

Tinakori

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 16:38:15 +1300

Journalists are notoriously innumerate and people who are good at numbers are not often good writers. The development of electronic and social media has improved the testing of numbers used by politicians significantly because it allows people other than journalists or writers of letters to the editor to share their…

Sacha

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:09:56 +1300

Thought it was the Minister’s office who misinterpreted the stats they were given by police? Thank goodness she’s not in charge of anything important this term, eh.

giovanni tiso

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:04:00 +1300

"Ironically, we had a hell of a job trying to get the Herald to stop using the bogus figures the minister's office had handed out. They were even quoted twice in editorials."

You, me and Alanis Morissette need to finally have that conversation about the meaning of irony. What you…

giovanni tiso

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:01:31 +1300

(Also: thank you Sacha.)

giovanni tiso

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 13:56:32 +1300

"And I'd wager that there might well be a few more stories to be found in interrogating the data that governments and ministers offer to justify their actions."

I think it was in his Bruce Jesson lecture in 2012 that Hager first suggested that sorting through this kind data -…

Idiot Savant

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 13:46:11 +1300

The modern approach to political management. It doesn't matter how bogus are the numbers used to provide support for your policy because by the time the true numbers are revealed, we've "all moved on...nothing to see here''... bullshit prevails.

Yes. To them, facts are just a rhetorical prop, not a…

Idiot Savant

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 13:35:54 +1300

Obvious question: did the police – who get millions of dollars of new funding from this policy – lie deliberately, or are they just morons?

Kumara Republic

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 13:34:45 +1300

Fat wallets = bigger PR budget = bigger ability to make shit up and get away with it.

Mark Graham

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 13:20:16 +1300

Most people who are engaged with politics rely on media to…

Sacha

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 13:19:34 +1300

Nailing the government and its agencies over loose language and dodgy reporting timeframes doesn’t require any politicians to talk.

Exactly. And call their bluff. Don't offer interviews if politicians refuse to approach them honestly. Terminate the conversation at the first sign of misbehaviour. Tell the audience what is going on.…

Matthew Poole

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:53:21 +1300

Really interesting listening to an older RNZ podcast of an interview with Mike Joy (Massey uni water scientist) who was saying that Ministry for Environment used a 10-year timeframe and declared that water quality was “stable” in most rivers (since when does ~12% of a sample constitute "most"?) when the…

Brent Jackson

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:43:08 +1300

And I’d wager that there might well be a few more stories to be found in interrogating the data that governments and ministers offer to justify their actions.

The way you've phrased that sentence highlights exactly what the problem is.

Politicians seem to view data as a means "to justify…

Russell Brown

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:34:38 +1300

Timely: Sarah Wilson revisits the bogus benefit numbers also aired during this year's election campaign.

Public Address

Tue, 11 Nov 2014 12:34:37 +1300

Discussion from blog post.