(UK study)

I don't think they'd be that stupid.

Did you just say you don't think politicians would be that stupid???

http://www.gregpalast.com/update-obama-slam-duncans-education/#more-2174

Though if it was me, I'd be leery of those forest credits.

I don't think they'd be that stupid.

But well done to Jeanette Fitzsimons for flushing him out.

Forestry continues as expected and everything else is supposed to be ready for Jan 2010.

Though if it was me, I'd be leery of those forest credits.

This one bothered me too, I have a child with Aspergers syndrome and it is often necessary to pull him from…

schools do 'extract the needed resources' already – the main limit is size of resource pool.

nothing... except the provision of resources required (time, money and skills). Which was part of my point.

I am only asking as it seems that you are unaware that children in primary school are already assessed on literacy and numeracy very regularly and that this information is also passed on to their parents/caregivers.

I think what most people are arguing is that another test will not…

I wonder if in a perverse way, despite not paying at high school, the breaking knowledge into discrete acquirable chunks has also lead to commodification.

Interesting point.
Many students now do not aim to pass "English' or 'History' (for example) they look at each AS, weigh up how many credits…

You are quite right, there are no crystal balls that allow us to predict what literacy and numeracy will amount to in the future. But my point in an abstract way was to ask, does it make sense to formalise and standardise the concept of literacy and numeracy through…

I agree with your comments regarding students expecting to be 'spoon-fed' – it drives me nuts.

do you have children in primary level education?

I am only asking as it seems that you are unaware that children in primary school are already assessed on literacy and numeracy very regularly and that this information is also passed on to their parents/caregivers.

I think what most…

What perplexes me above all is that I’m not really sure what will constitute literacy or numeracy in 50 years time and it may be a risky strategy delivering teaching on the presumption that I do.

Yeah, but what else can you do? We don't have crystal balls so we…

The pressure cooking had destryed the potential to love to read. Pace. Pace. Pace.

Sounds symptomatic of the kind of system that Japan is slowly moving away from, without the saving graces.

Speaking as one of those elitist, over-paid, curmudgeonly killers of creativity (academics) – I am going to offer the Turkey voting for Christmas line: There is no point in expanding or putting further funds into higher education as long as a culture of teach to the test/exam continues…

AS, I'm all for a bit of shoe-tossing every now and then. When there's a suitably oafish target. :)

Must remember to keep a pair of slingbacks to hand for the next time I see this theocratic mouthpiece in the street.

Occasionally the quiet ones get sick of being quiet.

AS, I'm all for a bit of shoe-tossing every now and then. When there's a suitably oafish target. :)

You really don't have to try to convince me you're an asshat. Honest.

Suggest you read my initial posts. In case you can't be bothered, I'll summarise. The Bill as it was passed doesn't do most of the wild things claimed by posters. I also in my initial post that we have a literacy problem.

I haven't seen anything posted that convinces…

On the other hand…

AS: Maybe you could discuss what prevented you achieving literacy yourself?

Block capitals should be used for abbreviations and acronyms. There is boldface and underlining for emphasis. You have to talk *about* something, "I'm talking having..." is not correct usage.

Glass houses, etc.

Are you genuinely trying to be…

OK... I think it was Harold Macmillan who said "We have not overthrown the divine right of kings to fall down for the divine right of experts."

True, but I think there's a difference in falling down "for the divine right of experts" and just giving due consideration to their…

Also, and this is just my impression, there seem to be a lot more people from the secondary and tertiary education sectors in politics, than primary and early childhood.

Jacqui Dean for Minister of Education (and Broadcasting, of course)?

This becomes increasingly evident by Year 13 as the students learn the 'system'

A lot of good points were raised.

Also to add to that –
some teachers I know are concerned that certain subjects are falling in popularity because (for example) they might offer 24 AS credits that take a lot of hard work to get a…

I expect them to be mature enough to take expert advice. That's all.

Sacha: OK... I think it was Harold Macmillan who said "We have not overthrown the divine right of kings to fall down for the divine right of experts." At least there's one thing you can say for…

Delay of Standards Review:

Perhaps she reads PA.

“After meeting with principals and hearing from many heads of department and others, I have decided to revise the implementation timeline for the new standards by one year to allow further consultation with the sector,” says Mrs Tolley....
Mrs Tolley has told the Ministry of Education that wider consultation with…

“After meeting with principals and hearing from many heads of department and others, I have decided to revise the implementation timeline for the new standards by one year to allow further consultation with the sector,” says Mrs Tolley.

and that's just to my children.

cost to teachers! too much time spent administering test, marking test, filling out the forms to report results to parents, school, ministry etc... hope there is still time to teach how to read and add 2 +…

plenty of people expect that has inside experience

I expect them to be mature enough to take expert advice. That's all.

Also, when it comes to teaching, it's not hard to find MPs with direct experience who can head the education portfolios. Finding former cops and soldiers is rather more difficult.

Probably. But I think you could also make an argument that having experience in the Ministry (or most likely, one…

The very first hit is this article from the Daily Telegraph (that well known bastion of anarcho-communist thought....)

I'd recommend that anyone who thinks that school testing is A Good…

To me that's not really the question. You could be a perfectly good Minister of Education (or indeed, something else), without having been part of the system. How many Ministers of Police are ex-police officers? Ministers of Defence ex-military?

Yeah, but tell that to the people who insisted that Aunty…

Are there further revelations about Labours secret police to come?

Craig, I don't recall King fresh in her job ignoring professional evidence and avoiding engaging with her sector before rushing through policy changes, do you?

Not personally, but I could point you towards a fair few health professionals who'd say King did exactly that when it was politically expedient to…

Out of interest, what Education experience does Anne Tolley have?

About as much as Annette King did in Health when she became Minister — insert your favourite 'Murder House' joke/anecdote here — and she didn't seem to do too bad a job.

Out of interest, what Education experience does Anne Tolley have?

To me that's not really the question. You could be a perfectly good Minister of Education (or indeed, something else), without having been part of the system. How many Ministers of Police are ex-police officers? Ministers of Defence ex-military?

The…

But is it art?

Out of interest, what Education experience does Anne Tolley have?

One of the many crosses that teachers have to bear is that everyone who has been to school fancies themselves as an expert on Education.
Strangely, the same people can eat roast dinners without feeling they have become experts in…

While…

Block capitals should be used for abbreviations and acronyms. There is boldface and underlining for emphasis. You have to talk *about* something, "I'm talking having..." is not correct usage.

Glass houses, etc.

It's worth comparing teaching from when I grew up, which although at a different school was within the same system as that described by David Haywood
and the kind of teaching…

Caveat: To feel awesome you do need to put in sometimes. Hard. Harder than everyone. And come up with the goods.

Hm. Libraries as high-pressure work environments requiring coming up with 'goods': not so much. I must just be a slacker, but without the awesome part. :)

They need at least one big, big reason to stick with the deal

What, bigger than a ministerial car?

I feel vaguely awesome now. Heh.

I reckon it would be cool to put steppers on cinema projectors, and do dub/scratch robot DJ with pictures.

This kind of thing, maybe?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_printer

The old National Film Unit had a state-of-the-art early 70s model, along with a full-on animation stand from the same maker. The guy who installed…

I could be pumping out art, at within 0.02 mm of accuracy.

That comment should sound so wrong, but just sounds so right. context is everything.

I have to say also that during the entire National Party campaign I felt as a teacher somewhat insulted with the constant Standards/reporting in plain english thing as if I was not…

Middle-class people accept that there are 'good schools' and 'bad schools' and they don't want their children to go to 'bad schools'. That's an unconscious way of accepting a two (or more)-tier system, and wanting the advantages conferred by the upper tier, surely?

Hmm. See Jolisa's comments earlier about the…

I'd give you 79-83.

Very fair. And a lovely answer. Sleep well!

By the way on my plane to Auckland today were some fresh new MPs, so I did a bit more raving about this unnecessary Education Bill and the unjust law making process which denies us ordinary citizens our democratic rights to make submissions to a select committee.

You're our own…

I'm building a numerically controlled plasma cutting machine. I have no background in electrical engineering or computer programing.

I'm guessing that you'd have some precision engineering skills. In my humble experience of precision engineers, they're an interestingly "different" bunch.

Marks out of a hundred, Mark? :-)

Well, to be blunt (and I hope you'll forgive me), I'd give you 79-83. Perhaps you'd feel that's unfair based on my previous glowing comment (which I'll attribute mainly to the candid clarity with which you wrote.

I'll explain the reasoning behind your…

From the Govt website:

A. Tolley

When my daughter was mainstreamed at her local school in 1989, the Minister of Education, speaking on Morning Report, called me a zealot because I was insisting that my daughter "who would never learn anything" was "sucking up money from other kids."
He's now Speaker of the House.

Not that…

The subject in 5th form I most disliked was Art, because, so far as I could tell, there was nothing to learn and no way to know…

So I'd be interested, after a bit of self-examination Jan, how you developed such cynicism towards your own education at such a young age.

That's a challenge Mark. I'll try.

It's hard, because you're a slightly bewildered child while its happening. I was bright enough. Loved anything to do with…

oh, FFS! Let me be quite clear here. LITERACY and NUMERACY is what I'm talking about. Are you saying that after around TEN YEARS of compulsory education, it is fine to have kids coming out that CANNOT READ OR WRITE??

I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT BEING ABLE TO DO CALCULUS, OR…

As someone pointed out the averages are moving (up) which is a good thing – I think at a very basic level we need…

Then I went on to high school where national exams like school cert were designed to show exactly half of us that we were failures and were scaled up or down to make sure that that happened.

Yup, it struck me as a very strange system. I'm pretty good at…

Hey, to be fair that's Tolley's preferred way, not AS's.

Sorry – I hadn't picked that up.

your preferred way of teaching literacy and numeracy through constant national testing

Hey, to be fair that's Tolley's preferred way, not AS's. I agree with him about the goal being full literacy – though I note the concession "majority" in his last post – but I reckon achieving that would…

I give up, I really do.

You give up rather easily AS. I've read all the responses to your simple opinions. Perhaps if you'd learned to listen when you were at school instead of learning only to recite and chant you might be able to understand that your preferred way…

Like we should all have a problem with service station attendants not actually knowing what makes a car tick?

Jan:

One wonders, AS, whether you think any further than the school gate. Whether you actually think it is important for children to suceed – at something they can do.

…

As is the way of things B follows A. Nobody expects success at maths from someone who…

Kerry Packer, built a media empire, and he was profoundly illiterate.

Not exactly – Packer was the third generation of an existing media empire, which was already pretty substantial by the time his dad Sir Frank – also rumoured to be somewhat cognitively challenged – popped off and left him…

You weren't prosecuted under the identical offence when it carried a $15 fine (max $150), why are you concerned that you would be now that it carries a $30 fine (max $300)?

Fair point – though the figures you give are wrong if the news reports are anything to go…

There are some commonly held false assumptions out there including that private schools have better quality teaching. Just as people assume that private hospitals provide higher quality surgery and care.

Once again, I can personally attest to that. I was sent to an exclusive Decile 10 private school in ChCh…

You may have nailed it there. I recall a story from the production of Pinocchio , about the difficulty of creating an insect character. The solution was "a little guy with no ears".
Whatever his strengths, fount-of-all-wisdom Roger has never given the impression of being a good listener.

Thanks Joe.…

You could as easily say that it is dismal that there are not at least 80% of the adult population with Uni Degrees or higher.

Who is talking nonsense? We're talking about LITERACY and NUMERACY, you know being able to read or write or add numbers.

We're not talking…

When the teachers are alienated from the process, and relegated to the backseat in…

In my classroom this…

There are some commonly held false assumptions out there including that private schools have better quality teaching.

Quite – it's rich parents that make the difference. Some years back I remember a big Christchurch study reported conclusively a direct correlation between a school's academic performance and the wealth of the…

I'm all for aspirational targets as long as we're clear that's all they are. We simply don't have the resources or…

I think parents…

Taxpayers should demand that Private Schools should be subject to the same testing as State Schools---taxpayers money!

so your in favour of these tests being introduced?

if they're not relative to other countries

You're the one who keeps talking about league tables. My points related purely to the situation here. So many 15 year olds operating at less than level 3 isn't good enough. Expecting that we should want more kids operating at above Level 3…

Why do private schools have exemption from these Tolley standards?

Good question. If you wanted to privatise the system, wouldn't you want their results listed along with all the others?

it seems to me your comment "...You calling us..." is an unconciously ironic QED of my point. If Public Address is an "us and them" community, then whose values do you think are reflected within it?

Tom, I was referring to the post on the other site – hence "us"…

Had a look at PISA, they are about where I remember them. Around 50% with literacy at less than level 3. Stellar performance. Not.

AS, are we even reading the same report? From the PISA 2006 Key Findings:

Only 3 of the other participating countries had a mean reading literacy…

Exactly Roger Douglas's tactics in the late 80s. I think he may the Jiminy cricket sitting on Key's shoulder. A Natty sort of conscience.

You may have nailed it there. I recall a story from the production of Pinocchio , about the difficulty of creating an insect character. The solution…

Teachers don't generally get consulted on changes. They, like the rest of the public sector have the usual choice of getting on with it and making the best of what they've been given, or looking for another job.

The point is – no-one has been consulted. And there are direct…

I introduce Rudyard Kipling's "If" by showing Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal reading the poem.

That nearly made me cry – and that's not easy for a dog.

Och take a look at the last PISA results for just reading literacy and see where we place on the league table of nations. Because it is all about league tables now...isn't it?

Had a look at PISA, they are about where I remember them. Around 50% with literacy at…

I can't think of anyone who thinks that's part of the purpose of the education system, consciously or subconsciously.

Ah – you have powers from the dark side!

Do Schools Kill Creativity?

Sir Ken is brilliant, for sure. His description of creativity as "being prepared to be wrong" is apt. I call it the Art of Making Mistakes. This over-riding idea that we don't have time to make mistakes (we're moving so fast now) and consequently reward being…

The law already makes truancy, for good reasons, illegal. This law just doubles the penalties, and allows the Ministry of Education, rather the schools(!) to bring prosecutions. It doesn't change the offence – exactly the same actions will be illegal after it as before it. You weren't prosecuted under…

State schools trying for…

This behaviour is typical of high powered corporate players – quick firm decisions, don't give the opposition time to draw breath, act, and move on. Hesitation or consulting others risks losing your advantage.

Exactly Roger Douglas's tactics in the late 80s. I think he may the Jiminy cricket sitting on…

Plenty of private schools are in receipt of tax payers loot Ben.

Peter, sure they are, but whatever private contributions are given/required, are not looted from taxpayers, and to abolish those contributions is madness. All it could possibly do is lower the quality of private schools, an outcome I can't…

Both sides really.

Absolutely boring to be taught by one of those teachers.

And I'd find my job skull-numbingly dull if I had to teach like that on a daily basis.

The worst failing a teacher can have IMHO is an inability to continue to learn and listen. To learn on a professional level, from their colleagues, from their daily experiences and most importantly, to listen to and learn from their students.

That requires…

I can't really think of a more boring existence.

Being taught by those teachers?

@BenWilson:

All right then, how would all your benign middle class voters react if we truly did something revolutionary to ensure equality of education for all new Zealanders?

I've lost the context of this question. Was it meant for someone else?

If it is seriously meant for me,…

And I have to say, that as far as literacy is concerned, the best thing I ever did was teach my boys to…

Do Schools Kill Creativity?…

Having gone all the way through Allan Peachy's school, and coming from a middle/upper (depending how you define it in NZ) family, some of whom vote National, I can't think of anyone who thinks that's part of the purpose of the education system, consciously or subconsciously.

Middle-class people accept that…

Such a two-tier system suits the middle class bedrock of the National Party, because for the middle class the primary purpose of the education system is to tilt the playing field to their advantage as early and as comprehensively as possible.

Being middle class myself, I can't say that any…

It's now about potential prosecution of parents of school-phobics etc. And liberals want the law to recognise that certain actions shouldn't be illegal, and conservatives are happy to rely on the 'this is about sending a message to bad parents' line.

Is anyone who has this inconsistency in his or…

Minimum standards in literacy and numeracy. Does anyone seriously object to ensuring that kids can at the very least read, write, and understand the basics of maths?

Of course not. I think what people are objecting to is the element of bait-and-switch involved in National's policy.

Full literacy and numeracy…

I will not teach to some Tolley standard – I want my students to be so much better than that.

*Ouch*

We're well aware of…

Given our appalling literacy and numeracy record

Och take a look at the last PISA results for just reading literacy and see where we place on the league table of nations. Because it is all about league tables now...isn't it?

And for extra credit name the logical fallacy that is…

All right then, how would all your benign middle class voters react if we truly did something revolutionary to ensure equality of education for all new Zealanders? How about, for example, we completely abolish all private schools are make it part of every schools charter that their ethnic and…

Everyone here seems to me to be missing the politics of these education changes, as if they think these changes are being done with primarily educational outcomes in mind.

Every bloody one of us, eh? What a singularly perceptive chap and a rare jewel of nature you are. If you…

If only that were true..

Those NZ studies estimating that around half our working age population isn't functionally literate are all lies then?

Given our appalling literacy and numeracy record

If only that were true..

Minimum standards in literacy and numeracy. Does anyone seriously object to ensuring that kids can at the very least…

Rajen Prasad did a great job during the second reading in pointing up the logical disconnects between the Bill's supposed purpose…

Alan Peachey may not be the minister of education, but it isn't hard to see the strings on Anne Tolley, who…

procedural guidelines for the police

A Minister can interfere far more directly in enforcement by the Ministry of Education than by the Police (for obvious reasons). Hence my concern about the quality of leadership on offer – it seems a fair trade that if it is going to be authoritarian…