I offer you Pauline Hanson; evidence it's at least antipodean.

I'd been seeing a similar comparison with the now thankfully fading Alan Jones. The same combination of sphincter-brained mean-mindedness and towering self-importance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibAe8ArmvwY

Newswire: Laws does it again – meds jibe on council letterhead

what if historians found out that Auckland in County Durham (where Auckland gets its name) was in fact mispelt and should be Awklund.

Well, actually the English name for Tamaki Makaurau derives from the 2nd Earl of Auckland, whose title in turn comes from West Auckland in the County of…

ssh ssh quiet or waiiLLL CRASH CRASH STORM

Or, just calm-

for now-

Pronounced 'fongers'?

'Fongers' is actually how I hear it in my head most of the time.

"Oh dahling, I'm so tired of the Auckland social whirl. If that awful Glaucoma woman puts me in the social pages one more time, I shall simply scream. Let's head up to Fongers for…

Would people get uptight if others demanded the name change and the geographical board went ahead with it?

devils advocate and all... :)

replaced by my own less perceptive clone

Gno the feeling.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you....'Whangers'

Pronounced 'fongers'? I like it. Very much.

-noun
1. mistake, error, misconception.

2. misappropriation: it was a wanganui of the original concept.

3. to reject (a proposed bill or enactment) by exercising a wanganui

–verb (used with object)

4. to rule against or disallow the arguments of (a…

Technically, I believe you were beaten to it a couple of pages back by te west coast massive.

Ah yes. I must conceed the point. I probably would have noticed that if I hadn't been replaced by my own less perceptive clone.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you....'Whangers'

May I suggest "Whangers" for the place, "Wangers" for the residents.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you...

Technically, I believe you were beaten to it a couple of pages back by te west coast massive.

Timmers and Dunners are yoof speak for Timaru & Dunedin (suitably truncated for txt) even now-

Hong Kong: 'Honkers'…

More like "hw", right?

Yeah, well I didn't want to write a thesis on the subject, but --weirdly — the old-fashioned NZ English pronunciation of 'wh' sounds more like 'hw' to modern ears.

Bauer voices it, anyway. He says Pakeha couldn't hear that sound clearly, so applied spelling wrongly.

Not…

And — as I understand it — the pronunciation of the 'wh' in the W(h)anganui dialect is supposed to have followed the old-fashioned NZ English pronunciation of 'wh'.

…

'Wh' represents the voiceless consonant corresponding with 'w'... It is a mistake to assimilate the sound to that of 'f' in English, though this has…

When an "h" follows a "w", it makes damn all difference to the pronunciation of a word.

God knows I don't want to become an apologist for Paul Holmes, but I suppose he could be referring to the fact that the 'wh' sound and 'w' sound…

It's about the dignity of a language and so a people. It's intangable cultural heritage that needs to be recognised if this we are to treat each other…

When an "h" follows a "w", it makes damn all difference to the pronunciation of a word.

And then goes on in another rambling column…

'whanga' has several meanings – in Williams, "1:bay, bight, nook 2: stretch of water.

Names for Wellington

Te-Whanganui-a-Tara (Great harbour of Tara – Tara was an important mariner ancestor) –

Victoria University uses the 'place at the mouth of the fish of Maui' – te upoko o te ika a…

It also raises questions about how often Laws behaves like this on his official email account.

At least one more time, although I believe it was snail mail from the mayor's office, dinner guests told me of the blunt, one line reply they received from the man after writing to…

I did say my OIA might tie bureaucrats in knots. I didn't say it was perfect and tight. You're spot on re needing to be precise.

Nevertheless, if some resident in a rivermouth town wants to invest in a 50 cent stamp, they are welcome to use…

Well, duh it isn't an isolated incident. But never let the perfect be the enemy of the good, eh?

ok

the local hapu/iwi will know exactly the meaning for their area

Reading the Maps cites Turia, ambiguously. Just relistened to the Marae clip. Ken Mair is indeed a spokesperson for Tupoho iwi.

I don't get this nonsense about organic change etc;

Well just as your name is Leslie not Lesslyn, it could be taken to imply that there was anti Scottish racism in your family.or perhaps just whatever was going at the time. Not saying that I don't see where you're coming…

But the local hapu/iwi will know exactly the meaning for their area-

Keir why not rename Christchurch Crīstcirice? Your basis seems to be that Written Maori not be allowed to evolve with the new collective people of the land, or that an English loan word must accord to required spelling dogma. Which is clearly not the case.

Because Christchurch is an English…

the new collective people of the land

Heh.

it is that it is wrong in English,

There are 100,000 official documents that dispute that. It's no wronger than yogurt/yoghurt. A valid useage and currently far more specific and arguaby useful than Whanganui.

"where are you going?

"Whanganui"

"what the city? the river? the national park?the island?"

You could…

The assertion is not that Wanganui is wrong in Maori; it is that it is wrong in English, by the standards and rules of English, and I should rather agree.

Me too. The settlers would never have intended to get it wrong. Now who loses by putting their error right?

Almost the entire English language consists of missspelt foreign words.

Hang on, that's dodge as all get out. First of all, there's the basic Anglo-Saxon corpus, which I think we can, for the sake of argument, call indigenous, which we couldn't misspell if we tried. Then there's the correctly spelled…

consider what it is that manages to displace a sacred center then just as surely/swiftly comes to believe that its own one must be the source of all violence!

what do you mean by this 'whims of progress' comment?

every asshole has to wake up sooner or later.

Brian Friel's…

Well what exactly is being offered as compensation in this case? an H?

The redress of cultural wrongs doesn't prevent a society from seeking to bring about more concrete change. If the PAS book club ever takes off, I'm going to suggest that Brian Friel's Translations be included, it deals…

see? takes two to do the abusivetango

. . . a one velodrome town.

That's been something of a perception since, well, since pre-velodrome days.

"In character he was cold, hard, stern, and autocratic, and – what was a big defect in Maori eyes – was not a good speaker. There was restraint about his speech which…

Funny, that.

Paul, conseismawhatsit is a troll otherwise known as lil p who periodically infests this place.

This might be a good time to remind ourselves of Pat Snedden's generous contributions to the broader conversation from an informed Pakeha perspective – after Brash's Orewa dump and shadowed by…

Funny, that.

Sacha, what I meant was that a discussion about the claim for or against the "h" doesn't have to become a discussion about colonial history. I thought, possibly wrongly, that conseismal was going to argue the argument for the "h" was somehow discredited because Maori weren't really first…

how much are the local Iwi involved in all this?

Very – both in principle and practice. A local iwi raised it with the goegraphic board. I don't know how many others there are and how Ken Mair and Tariana Turia relate to that particular iwi, but they're both local…

Sooner or later you do have to seriously consider what it is that manages to displace a sacred center then just as surely/swiftly comes to believe that its own one must be the source of all violence!

the whims of progress.

Insachacurity

lame.

damn i Just edited that line

There's editing and then there's..
a moving target.

(It seemed like an OK line to me, btw).

Out of interest Sacha how much are the local Iwi involved in all this?

I don't think it's a Maori decision per se

Hence the geographic board. And democracy does not mean mob rule.

not helpful in this discussion

Funny, that.

Okay, let's not get carried away here. We're talking about place names in a colonised country with a history of land confiscations and usurpation of sovereign rights.

Well what exactly is being offered as compensation in this case? an H? I'd take the freedom to show my patch over an…

Why does Gio apparently wish us to believe that Maori ever had something called 'sovereign rights'?

Not to be overly legalistic about it, but the 1835 Declaration of Independence is a good place to start, no?

Perhaps you've got another take on it? Maybe the professional historians and jurists too.…

That's a very sensible suggestion, let's put it to a referendum. Wangers doesn't sound half bad.

Agreed – call their bluff and campaign for that option. Undie500 crowd might even vote for it. Plus the potential for misuse is appealing.

Hello Kerry – except that Laws did not release either the Otaki letter or the e-mails we're talking about. That's where the conspiracy theory falls down because it was those who received the replies who made them public and not Laws.

Hmmm, I'd suggest it was a good bet the…

And when do we get to rename the two islands?

Marae today had a man who has officially asked the Geographic Board for renaming of te islands, and a woman from the Maori Language Commission explaining how they get involved – oh, and Ken Mair. Go to chapter2 in the…

Almost the entire English language consists of missspelt foreign words.

Okay, let's not get carried away here. We're talking about place names in a colonised country with a history of land confiscations and usurpation of sovereign rights. it's not quite the same thing as beef deriving from the French boeuf,…

And when do we get to rename the two islands? Currently they sound as if they had been named by the cat in the hat.

p. 1873

"All ready to put up the names for my islands.
I'll name one island North and the other South island,
said Maui the…

A clearly Maori word – albeit misspelt – is not an English word.

Almost the entire English language consists of missspelt foreign words.

A clearly Maori word – albeit misspelt – is not an English word...

I'd argue it clearly became an English word over a century ago. The same was as Italy is an English word. I'm in favor of Wanganouille

then you could have Wangers/Whanganui...

That's a very sensible suggestion, let's put it to a referendum. Wangers doesn't sound half bad. It would also flow seamlessly with the capital's new name (if I get my way), Wellington/Schmellington.

And when do we get to rename the two islands? Currently they sound…

it applies to places like Matakaea/Shag Point or Mawhera/Greymouth,
not to a spelling mistake in Maori (spelling mistakes in English are another matter altogether – there is a long tradition of mispelling in English, and an equal tradition in keeping spellings that bear little resemblance to how the placename/family name/whatever…

It is the experience of those of us here…

both the Maori & the English names

More of an issue in the South was my impression during Maori Language Week when TVNZ showed weather maps with reo placenames (southerly ones here). Further North, less difference. I guess sheer iwi population distribution and influence at the time of Pakeha settlement had…

On the radio ratings/timing issue – I don't think the Geo Board, Parliament and local council would all choose to drop their decisions just to boost his ratings. That sounds like another 9/11 conspiracy theory!

Well, i have to wonder why he waited the best part of five months to…

no flies on that boy for planning

And it's that cynicism if true that makes him truly disgusting.

"The radio ratings survey period runs from August 29 to October 10.
Talkback host and Wanganui Mayor Michael Laws writes his abusive reply to letters dated April 2 and April 3 from Otaki schoolchildren on August 27.

A Woman's Day cover story…

Would you agree that part of Laws' appeal to Whanganui is his high profile, regardless of his politics? That he draws attention to the area?
The few people I still know there loathe him , but usually also say…

All I will say on Laws is that his voters and his radio bosses are probably happy because he's entertaining. We like controversy otherwise…

It seems to me that both Laws and Turia base their positions on unrealistic pictures of the state of race relations in W(h)anganui, and elsewhere in the North Island. Laws is fond of talking about how 'we're all one…

Laws is loved, in part, because he is so politically incorrect

You mean profoundly disrespectful of others. Go right ahead and vote en masse for that, but if you inflict it on the rest of us then expect some interest. Same goes for Auckland and our mayoral choices. I expect…

You are all very earnest, aren't you!

When we're not being frank.

but if Wanganui is insulted and Laws then returns the insult at, I'm assuming, an Aucklander, how does that play out in Wanganui and anywhere else for that matter, as favorable to the initial insultee?

Wanganui shouldn't have been insulted, I agree, as I said before: I wish the emailer…

And you don't like being contradicted, but if Wanganui is insulted and Laws then returns the insult at, I'm assuming, an Aucklander, how does that play out in Wanganui and anywhere else for that matter, as favorable to the initial insultee?

The HOS…

No-one. That's the short answer Sacha.

Council's are required to have a code of conduct which governs conduct of councillors. Breaches are handled either by Council as a whole or a delegated committee.

But as Laws has proved, a person can bring W(h)anganui Council into disrepute…

You could complain to the Council as a whole, but given that half support Laws and the other half don't, you would not get very far.

Agreed. In general, who enforces any codes of conduct for elected local body members? Thinking of the equivalent of Parliament's privileges committee, etc.

If…

On the other hand ... does Laws write any non-abusive letters on his mayoral email address?

Now there would be an interesting OIA request. Could tie bureaucrats in knots.

CEO, Wanganui District Council, PO Box 637, Wanganui

Official Information Act request

I request the count of the number of emails…

Oh get over it!

Woah, chill out, Emily. I think Cecelia is within her rights to find her email from Laws rude and childish. It also raises questions about how often Laws behaves like this on his official email account.

And Russell why post the exchange if your aim wasn't…

Look at that, mate! And I never even had frozen peas!

rofflenui

Wanganui – and I will give it…

I read the NZ herald poll yesterday and the week before that where something like 75% called him the voice-of-reason or something like that.

Herald polls are simply a bucket provided for those shut-ins who must vomit up their ineffectuality ("Look at that, mate! And I never even had frozen…

As for "embarrass", Giovanni reminded us quite well I thought that none of this is going to change Lhaws' mind or behaviour.

I think the point is rather how it plays out with the public. My probably wrong opinion is Otaki exchange = bad Madden-Smith exchange = good (from Lhaws'…

why post the exchange if your aim wasn't to embarrass Laws?

Emily, snippets of evidence like that email exchange feed into an ongoing conversation here about making sense of where the country's public debate is at. Plus it's entertaining. As for "embarrass", Giovanni reminded us quite well I thought that…

I wonder if being a shock jock and a media celebrity corrupts the souls of some people

I suspect the causality may be reversed.

And do write a quick formal email of complaint to the CEO of the Council. May not be a ble to do much short term, but…

I live in a similar provincial town (WE have an H) and I would think it…

Cecelia: since no doubt you didn't bait him the way that Madden-Smith did, I agree with Sacha – it's worth lodging a complaint about that.

Yes, and I disagree with Emily that it's funny. It's actually pretty weird.

Just read the Herald on Sunday account and Laws has turned the whole exchange into a positive. It will play even better in Wanganui. Own goal, Russell.

Really? It didn't seem that way to me. But the idea of an "own goal" presupposes the existence of a goal. You might…

The original spelling was WI-IANGANUI but over the years the ink smudged into the shape of an 'H'.

Soon after the town was…

Just read the Herald on Sunday account and Laws has turned the whole exchange into a positive. It will play even better in Wanganui. Own goal, Russell.

Where does he turn it to his advantage? By saying he was sick of non-residents expressing their opinion?

And for what it's worth…

Just read the Herald on Sunday account and Laws has turned the whole exchange into a positive. It will play even better in Wanganui. Own goal, Russell.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/opinion/2882791/Suffer-little-children-its-your-parents-fault

Also: Herald – the email exchange.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10598419

(As a small note of formal appreciation, can I say how much I really relish all the clips/leads/sites/et al that come from here?

*Thank you all*)

Now, off to hunt some edible stuff- a hah! Fresh glistening young puha clump! gotcha! Tweedlydee,…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_MhebfzmR0

O bugger, another kangaroo -when *do* the seaweed hordes come through? This vegan really has to *eat*-

But we lack abundant wildlife and must settle for pizza.

Thanks to 1080 there's not the same abundance of roadkill. And now that hubcaps are made of plastic there's a lack of handy roasting dishes.

On the other hand, speaking of PA social type things, it's the holidays coming up and I have a hankering to see my PA buddies at a certain neighbourhood bar. With rum. Email me if you too have this hankering.

Oh Jackie, wish I could :( Wont be back until…

I reckon it's only a matter of time until Laws has a Jimmy Swaggart / Jimmy Baker day of reckoning. Someone should go through his rubbish. I bet it's a goldmine of credibility destroying tidbits.

Um – isn't that what this thread is largely about? It's not as if he…

What is written – lasts much longer than what is oral, and, just sometimes- records what the oral was, from the writer's hear-point (I refer interested people to the journals of John Boultbee for an ear-insight to…

How would you envisage PA developing in the future – anything you would like to see happening?

Please keep it non-visual, no Skype-type link please.

Giovanni – 'Home'? Will Wellington ever become 'home'?

Heh... it'll take a while, I think. I'm always happy to come back into Wellington, I would find it really hard to go back to Milan long term (more so than Justine) and yet that's most definitely "home".

Try explaining the meaning…

Try explaining the distinctions between 'there' and 'their' or 'whether' and 'weather' to a ESL student--or the absence of an apostrophe in 'its'.

Jesus Geoff you make my job sound easy. Try explaining the meaning and uses of 'for'...

I reckon it's only a matter of time until Laws has a Jimmy Swaggart / Jimmy Baker day of reckoning. Someone should go through his rubbish. I bet it's a goldmine of credibility destroying tidbits.

The English are so great at spelling names the way they're pronounced.

Good point. I keep wanting to mis-spell 'Marylebone'. Just yesterday, one of my students pronounced Southwell as 'south' + 'well' (rather than 'suthvell') but I didn't bother correcting her. As Kim Hill commented to James Belich this morning,…

The English are so great at spelling names the way they're pronounced.

I'm off now to visit my cousins StJohn and Featherstonehaugh, in Marjorie Banks street, and then I'm off to Kiribati.

On the pronunciation of Paris, Moscow, etc. I…

If the much touted Wellington get together

Eh, much touted? When? and count me in, please.

On topic, I mentioned the Whanganui kerfuffle to a child yesterday. When I said some folks were annoyed that the 'h' would be added she said "why? it's *still* the same name isn't it."…

Re the Wgtn get-together, we could all gate-crash Russell and your Maria Pia's meatballs.

Feedback Wanted. I'd be most grateful if any community members shared their thoughts with me about PA as a virtual community.

I am willing to help but do you want responses here, or via another route?

I recently--and grandly-- declared PA the 'not just the best blog in New Zealand…

I'd be most grateful if any community members shared their thoughts with me about PA as a virtual community.

I'm currently doing a 3rd yr research essay on virtual communities. I'm using PAS as an example to critique Howard Rheingold's ideas about virtual communities. In particular, he said…

When I asked my school's rep why he was more conservative than me, he said "That's because you're a baby boomer!"

The little germ, already fluent in the jargon of marketing.

Re books and aut(h)ors Nick (H)ornby going to be on Kim (H)ill next week and (h)ere is a link to just out Prospect interview

Although I'm disappointed the second is not about Michel F.

Oh, but it is. :-)

I have a whole thing about The Name of the Rose and Foucault's Pendulum and the limits of interpretation but I can't express it in fewer than three thousand words

I nominate Giovanni to lead this initiative with 3000 Italian accented words on these two books by Umberto Eco.

Books ...

And we all agree that it should be called "Did you even bother to read the damn book?!", yes?

First I hear of that. But is not something that could happen within PAS? I know there must be excellent reasons, just wondering what they might be.

There is no reason at all that it couldn't happen, other than that no one has yet done it. I think…

One doubts such a scenario. It might help though.

First I hear of that. But is not something that could happen within PAS? I know there must be excellent reasons, just wondering what they might be.

No reason, I don't think. Just needs someone to start a nominate a book, wait a few weeks, and start a thread, yeah?

On another point entirely – lets get serious about a book group – Emma set up a shelfari PA group about 6 months ago, but only like 7 people joined.

First I hear of that. But is not something that could happen within PAS? I know there must be excellent…

I think NZers are a pretty conservative bunch, it just doesn't translate into worse governance because the political class is reluctant to tap into certain sentiments.

I think a better way to look at NZ's prevailing political culture (Matthew Palmer's written a book on this) is lazy egalitarianism. Not actively…

...let's face it, NZ on the whole *is* pretty conservative

Really? In comparison to where? I agree that NZ certainly has a conservative streak, and I'm quite glad I'm not there with the current gubmint, but internationally speaking, I think we're not too bad, actually. Scandinavian countries are leading the…

"rate payer's money being spent voting on spelling?
that's a sorry compromise for human progress.

we have all quills, we have all text input devices, we have all free will. we can to spell that schit the way we want it.

is wanga whucking vegas hard…

While that was beautifully written Sasha, I think we're forgetting that our nation's name is a mispelling of Zeeland.

Did you dial up the Knew Zeeland Original G(angsta) Bored before you renamed Sacha, "Sasha" there Tark?

Fuck this is confusing. It's like following the Auckland Warriors, New Zealand Warriors, Vodafone…

(After all, were i to be called the Duc d'Orleans, I should anglicise as the Duke of Orleans, where…

Rhighto

Nice. That you, Casserly?

Nouvelle Zelande isn't a misspelling of New Zealand but the French name for New Zealand.

The French refer to the Dutch Zeeland as Zélande so there's a logic there. On English maps Zeeland is labelled Zeeland.
In English we use the Latin Caledonia, and New Caledonia despite Nouvelle-Calédonie for the…

Just glad he never started a band.

Rhighto

*But* – when I think of the world I grew up in, 62…

New isn't Nieuw misspelt; it's Nieuw Anglicised

In fact it's Nieuw translated. As in New York, not New Yark.

I think we're forgetting that our nation's name is a mispelling of Zeeland.

Except there aren't any Dutch people getting offended, are there?

(And I also am unsure of how true it is to say `misspelt' when clearly New isn't Nieuw misspelt; it's Nieuw Anglicised and so I would argue…

Timaru, and Temuka still have meaning, and the olds were notorious for breathing (rather than enunciating) last or internal vowels

Practising that now, that's an awesome feeling.