Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Forgetting what we didn't know

Marc C

Tue, 17 May 2016 10:40:50 +1200

RNZ’s Media Watch made mention of this 60 minutes video (referred to above) from 2012 as well. Here is the audio from 15 May, where the Panama Papers and how the media reported on them are discussed from 18.50 on in this track:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/201800763/mediawatch-for-15-may-2016

The formerly accessible online video is…

Russell Brown

Thu, 12 May 2016 23:14:36 +1200

I’ve checked with a few people and I think I would be allowed to make my own transcription and share that, though.

Oh, all I meant was just a summary, really. It would be interesting to be reminded of the content.

Rob Stowell

Thu, 12 May 2016 21:40:27 +1200

Nicholas Shaxson at treasureislands.org – reckons secret money is about being outside the law – at least as much as tax cheating.

Michael Homer

Thu, 12 May 2016 19:55:31 +1200

It's also available from http://www.etv.org.nz/programme.php?id=47219 to anybody affiliated with any other New Zealand university, and a pretty long list of polytechs and high schools too.

Kim Shepherd

Thu, 12 May 2016 13:35:24 +1200

Just to make it really clear, the license terms don't allow somebody to copy and share the video on other platforms, just watch it for scholarly purposes. I've checked with a few people and I think I would be allowed to make my own transcription and share that, though.

Russell Brown

Thu, 12 May 2016 10:49:07 +1200

Ah, of course. Any volunteers?

Kim Shepherd

Thu, 12 May 2016 10:28:08 +1200

With regards to the 'private' 60 Minutes story from 2012, if you happen to be a University of Auckland student or employee, and you agree to Screenrights Licencing terms, you can find an archived version of that 60 minutes episode, with story breakdown, at https://www.library.auckland.ac.nz/tv-radio/title/VA_19000_09

-k

izogi

Wed, 11 May 2016 22:12:06 +1200

I think it was just part of a larger pattern of clumsy process. This Bill was just one of many that had similar treatment. When even DPF agrees there's been a problem with National's process, it's worth a glance.

I'd agree with Deborah that the issue wouldn't necessarily have been…

Tom Johnson

Wed, 11 May 2016 22:08:59 +1200

F>>K left and right on this one, this is a failure of governance issue. I’m sick of bad governance being so frequent that it's accepted as the norm. All power to the new breed of journalists coming up, the ones who are really fucking good at it.

National have delivered…

Russell Brown

Wed, 11 May 2016 22:03:52 +1200

Oh, I know all the history.
I just think that someone should put him on the spot about his personal decision to make such an odd search selection. I can’t think of anyone else who would make those choices.
Unless they were told to search for such organisations…

Key wouldn't…

Marc C

Wed, 11 May 2016 20:40:51 +1200

Shocking, Maori Party voting in favour of LTCs after Nats used a lengthy SOP to amend the Bill at extreme short notice. This tells me that they need to learn more and do more research about taxation legislation and practice, the folks doing research for Maori Party.

They were used,…

Sacha

Wed, 11 May 2016 19:41:23 +1200

a leadership position

middle word does not compute

Andre

Wed, 11 May 2016 18:41:14 +1200

I've heard Fairfax have made all of their sub-editors redundant now, with journalists required to sub their own stories and Editors the last line of proofing.

Moz

Wed, 11 May 2016 15:33:22 +1200

do you think we qualify as a tax haven? Or were we simply the unwitting dupes of clever Panamanian lawyers?

It doesn't have to be just one of those, and there are other options. Key, for example, might be suffering Collins Syndrome or have whatever his "highly ethical lawyer" has…

Rob Stowell

Wed, 11 May 2016 14:06:39 +1200

That Deborah, Nicky and Andrea Vance think it does is interesting but not decisive.
No. You'd have to look at the reasons they give. Deborah is very clear. You might also take into account that our trust regime was being questioned by other countries' tax depts and our own IRD.…

Tom Johnson

Wed, 11 May 2016 12:52:20 +1200

Niue World Order, so good, so good.

Amanda Wreckonwith

Wed, 11 May 2016 12:40:03 +1200

CrosbyTextor would have fed him that line from the last time in was used in the UK in 2013.

Oh, I know all the history.
I just think that someone should put him on the spot about his personal decision to make such an odd search selection. I can’t think…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 11 May 2016 11:31:18 +1200

seems like the solution is for the countries come up with an agreement good transparency rules for international transactions .... and to unconditionally tax all transactions through countries that don't join the agreement as "income"

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 11 May 2016 11:13:29 +1200

it appears that even saying the words “tax haven” was legally perilous four years ago.
I wonder if 'Niue World Order' would work instead?
;- )

Jason Kemp

Wed, 11 May 2016 10:44:49 +1200

Analysis of the database will take time and given the NZ crew only just got full access – as per the attached image – a simple high level search on New Zealand shows links Offshore Entities (16) Officers (58) Intermediaries (5) Addresses (391). The real stories will be a bit…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 11 May 2016 10:30:55 +1200

Whatever the solution, Blairism looks like a product of its time with each passing year.

Sacha

Wed, 11 May 2016 10:11:35 +1200

Could someone ask him why he entered Amnesty International and Red Cross into the search box.

CrosbyTextor would have fed him that line from the last time in was used in the UK in 2013.

izogi

Wed, 11 May 2016 09:59:16 +1200

Hi Deborah.

But the problem with foreign trusts and LTCs is clearly there now, so fixing it would be a good idea.

I agree.

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 11 May 2016 09:42:00 +1200

As I understand it, and IANATA, the LTC regime allows a person to get the benefits of both personal and company status when paying tax.

That is something you can't do in most overseas jurisdictions, where you either have a company (which pays tax on retained profits and capital gains)…

Tom Johnson

Wed, 11 May 2016 08:23:34 +1200

One of the defences the government has been running is that the original foreign trusts legislation come in under Labour. But I tend to regard law as a conversation and a response to circumstances. Problems only become apparent over time, economic or other circumstances change, and the law no longer…

Deborah

Wed, 11 May 2016 07:51:48 +1200

I don't know whether the link through to foreign trusts would have been regarded as a particular problem at the time. I think it may well have been just something that was seen as keeping our entire system consistent. (FTR, I tend to regard consistency across the system as a…

Amanda Wreckonwith

Wed, 11 May 2016 07:40:01 +1200

Key said he had been looking into the Panama papers himself.

Could someone ask him why he entered Amnesty International and Red Cross into the search box.

Ta.

izogi

Wed, 11 May 2016 07:39:35 +1200

Hi Deborah. I'm not meaning to suggest anything malicious or that LTCs are inherently bad, but the government of that day was already getting major criticism for mis-using urgency over and over again, resulting in big changes that had almost no time to receive real scrutiny and consideration of the…

Deborah

Wed, 11 May 2016 07:31:47 +1200

Hmmm... the LTC model fixed some serious problems with their predecessor entities, LAQCs (Loss Attributing Qualifying Companies). So yes, putting them through in a SOP was problematic, but they were designed to address a serious problem, and they have largely done so.

I don't think there's any reason at all…

izogi

Wed, 11 May 2016 07:23:29 +1200

Mainly since we introduced LookThroughCompanies (LTC) in 2010.

..which were created with the Taxation (GST and Remedial Matters) Bill 2010. It stated an outright intention of seeking to remove tax avoidance opportunities, and didn't spend such a lengthy time in the process. It was introduced 5th August, with just 3…

Deborah

Wed, 11 May 2016 07:20:41 +1200

Well, the OECD would say that, wouldn’t they, when it’s one of their own members. :-)

Per my post at The Spinoff, it might depend on what you think a tax haven is, and whether you think form or substance matters more.

[[http://thespinoff.co.nz/10-05-2016/foreign-trusts-101-a-plain-english-introduction-amid-the-panama-paper-haze/|Foreign trusts 101: a plain English introduction amid…

Tom Johnson

Wed, 11 May 2016 07:16:11 +1200

That a difference of opinion over a definition

Oh my god. Who are you trying to fool? That is a kiwiblog comment. Grow up.

Look at the issue, it's a clear problem. Grow up , stop trying to convince yourself of the innocence of the market. It needs overview and…

Matthew Hooton

Wed, 11 May 2016 07:09:32 +1200

But it is just a difference of opinion. The OECD does not think NZ meets its tests fort a tax haven. That Deborah, Nicky and Andrea Vance think it does is interesting but not decisive.

Russell Brown

Wed, 11 May 2016 06:59:29 +1200

And here's last's night's Media Take, on demand.

Russell Brown

Wed, 11 May 2016 06:56:41 +1200

That’s now a story. That a difference of opinion over a definition.

Good try Matthew!

Matthew Hooton

Wed, 11 May 2016 06:53:50 +1200

But Deborah Russell also says New Zealand is definitely a tax haven, a thing the Prime Minister continues to strongly deny. That’s a story right there.

That's now a story. That a difference of opinion over a definition. And while Nicky Hager's interpretation sides with Deborah's, the OECD's sides with…

Martin Brown

Tue, 10 May 2016 23:57:22 +1200

Mainly since we introduced LookThroughCompanies (LTC) in 2010.

Rob Stowell

Tue, 10 May 2016 23:03:26 +1200

Thanks Deborah. That was beautifully clear and useful!

Deborah

Tue, 10 May 2016 21:55:26 +1200

A bit more on Look Through Companies, mostly cribbed from a comment I've just put up over at The Spinoff.

Look Through Companies are interesting beasts. The idea is that tax is calculated and paid in the company, but instead of using the company rate, each shareholders' portion of the…

Marc C

Tue, 10 May 2016 20:56:57 +1200

I do not quite get whether you mean that in relation to Key or me, they have certainly not made my life any easier over recent years, I can attest to that.

Marc C

Tue, 10 May 2016 20:50:25 +1200

Come on, that is a simplistic thought, and negative. Labour’s and perhaps to some degree also the Green’s challenge and problem has been to present a unified, convincing and clear policy alternative, a platform and progressive direction, that they do not sway from.

But after much talk of reviewing policy,…

Russell Brown

Tue, 10 May 2016 20:07:25 +1200

(BTW, Russell, if you have access to the back end of the registration system, I’d quite like to use my family name as well as my given name at PAS. But this is hardly an urgent matter: I think all the regulars are very well aware of who I am.)…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 10 May 2016 19:51:29 +1200

Some research may be worthwhile to dig further into his past,

Be careful.lt may come back to bite you in the arse.

Deborah

Tue, 10 May 2016 19:46:42 +1200

Yes, but that's another one with an unintended consequence. However the purveyors of the finest tax minimisation vehicles seem to have cottoned onto their potential uses much more quickly than they did with foreign trusts. I wonder if that's because we had somehow primed them through our foreign trusts rules,…

Deborah

Tue, 10 May 2016 19:13:15 +1200

Yes. I’m on record right from early April saying that I think this is a tax haven: What’s going on with foreign trusts.

What’s going on with NZ foreign trusts may not be illegal, but it certainly allows overseas people to hide their income and assets, and engage in some…

Russell Brown

Tue, 10 May 2016 19:08:50 +1200

It's also worth noting that the current government also passed the SOP that created the highly fashionable international tax avoidance entity the look-through company, or LTC.

Russell Brown

Tue, 10 May 2016 18:58:27 +1200

Yes, but as Deborah Russell explains it isn’t NZ’s tax base at risk, and there is no evidence of tax evasion (illegal) – only tax avoidance (legal). So it’s not exactly scandalous that IRD let it drop.

But Deborah Russell also says New Zealand is definitely a tax haven, a…

Nick Russell

Tue, 10 May 2016 18:44:03 +1200

Isn't this just "wake up sheeple"? If you want the National Party out you are going to have to persuade at least some of its supporters that they should vote Labour or Green. It is just possible that telling them that the PM is really bad and that they are…

Marc C

Tue, 10 May 2016 18:37:11 +1200

I do not have unreasonably high expectations that anything comes out that will harm Key so much he has to resign as PM. But I think the Panama Papers deserve to be taken seriously and represent an opportunity to do some more investigative work. If some stuff was done that…

Nick Russell

Tue, 10 May 2016 18:34:10 +1200

Yes, but as Deborah Russell explains it isn't NZ's tax base at risk, and there is no evidence of tax evasion (illegal) – only tax avoidance (legal). So it's not exactly scandalous that IRD let it drop. The best argument to the contrary is that allowing this to continue could…

Russell Brown

Tue, 10 May 2016 18:25:03 +1200

But the tax regime for foreign trusts wasn’t invented by the current Government.

True. But the money flowing into such trusts has sharply increased in recent years and under the current government a consequent regulatory review signalled by IRD somehow went missing.

Tom Johnson

Tue, 10 May 2016 17:35:36 +1200

It's called ethics and its very important, larger than the little westminister we have here. It just needs to be called on by both sides, banking is out of control, lawless. Laws are needed.

On John Keys popularity , its not gonna be a seismic shift , New Zealand doesn't…

Nick Russell

Tue, 10 May 2016 17:20:36 +1200

True, but this is hardly a gamechanger. Anyone who already thinks the PM is dodgy will continue to think he is dodgy and anyone who doesn't will continue to think that Labour and the Herald are like dogs chasing a car. Nobody is changing their mind about anything over this.…

Tom Johnson

Tue, 10 May 2016 17:12:31 +1200

Really? After all this time you still think the PM has scandals waiting to be uncovered that will lead to his downfall?

He only holds parliament by one seat, a downfall for the national party is not to be in power and when they lose he's out.

Nick Russell

Tue, 10 May 2016 17:11:07 +1200

To be honest, I really don't understand the big story here. Deborah Russell's piece in the Spinoff http://thespinoff.co.nz/10-05-2016/foreign-trusts-101-a-plain-english-introduction-amid-the-panama-paper-haze/ seems to be the clearest analysis I have read, and the bottom line there was that we should improve our disclosure rules. But the tax regime for foreign trusts wasn't invented by…

Alfie

Tue, 10 May 2016 17:05:48 +1200

Good column by the Herald's Matt Nippert on getting access to the data today:

And another from Alex van Wel, RNZ's digital news editor on the spirit of cooperation between normally competing media.

william blake

Tue, 10 May 2016 17:02:54 +1200

Please excuse the further thread Jack but we can all publicly acknowledge Cameron Slaters' hypocrisy in seeking name suppression. What an ass.

And back to the Panama papers with John Key calling Nicky a 'left wing conspiracy theorist', the rebuttal being that the papers suggest that Key is a right…

Nick Russell

Tue, 10 May 2016 17:01:24 +1200

I wonder whether Key was involved in some consultations and activities before he became PM, while he worked for Merril Lynch or so. Some research may be worthwhile to dig further into his past, and whether advice was given to some small Pacific Island governments then

Really? After all this…

Russell Brown

Tue, 10 May 2016 17:00:06 +1200

Good column by the Herald's Matt Nippert on getting access to the data today:

A small Herald team, including a data specialist capable of wrangling the entire dataset and matching it against official records, has spent the morning poring over the results. So far we've found more than a dozen people…

Tom Johnson

Tue, 10 May 2016 16:57:05 +1200

I think this is big news. All trading countries need to be confident that other trading communities are not diminishing the annual fiscal base of another nation, doing this through effectively hiding the money from the citizenry.

Why can’t we have some grown up eyes on this ridiculous banking rort.…

Michael Meyers

Tue, 10 May 2016 16:16:40 +1200

I feel like you're being a little unfair to Duncan Garner with your opening paragraph. He's only talking about the NZ context so any mention of Iceland's PM is irrelevant. To me, his article seems like a reasonably fair synopsis of the situation so far, especially since it's aimed at…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 10 May 2016 16:07:44 +1200

I see Slater got diversion. Despite previous convictions for name suppression breaches. Cops and tories protecting their own, I guess.

Jim Cathcart

Tue, 10 May 2016 16:06:47 +1200

Sure, but a core explanation of the benefits of NG isn't actually that complex. What is more complex is understanding to which NG factors into decision variables and then modelling that into the impact on house prices.

Tom Johnson

Tue, 10 May 2016 16:01:41 +1200

New Zealanders flock to the National Party or the principle of the National Party which is the feel of steady ship politics and as few changes as possible unless it involves lowering a tax.

John Key is the happy face of a passionately conservative ruling body, the face they were…

izogi

Tue, 10 May 2016 15:56:21 +1200

Be that as it may, it's the type of explanation of complex topics that I wish our local high profile media were providing more of. As it is, I'm not sure some of them even understand nor care about the issues themselves.

Jim Cathcart

Tue, 10 May 2016 15:52:20 +1200

The media in Australia is only addressing is because the govt is bricking itself about how a manufactured bubble fits in within an economic environment where the China story is looking increasingly sketchy and potentially destructive by the hour.

Macrobusiness has been on top of it for years and the…

izogi

Tue, 10 May 2016 15:41:38 +1200

A large chunk of the conservative electorate are not issue based but in love with the weird security of the big blue N. Very difficult to shift public opinion with such crosby textor enablers running our news services.

I don't blame the majority for not drawing the connections of why…

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 10 May 2016 15:26:15 +1200

I did look for the footage the other day, and found it excerpted here:
http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/govt-rejects-tax-haven-claim-2012100818#axzz48DfUtovD

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 10 May 2016 15:18:50 +1200

the video has been set to private, presumably because they called NZ a 'Tax Haven', as referenced in the response here

Is it possible that after TV3 lost the rights to the 60 Minutes name to Sky/Prime, they can no longer host footage bearing the 60 Minutes Trademark?

Russell Brown

Tue, 10 May 2016 14:44:21 +1200

Heh. It's not the real 60 Minutes account – someone noticed the Twitter handle was available and grabbed it. But still!

John Palethorpe

Tue, 10 May 2016 14:34:40 +1200

Bloody hell John, say what you really think.

John Palethorpe

Tue, 10 May 2016 14:34:12 +1200

The PM's reaction to it has been the same on any issue where there might be a cause for the Government to take action, he makes it about him – then marginalises the story repeatedly, allowing the idea that there's nothing that needs to be done to be repeated again…

Russell Brown

Tue, 10 May 2016 14:32:21 +1200

but the video has been set to private, presumably because they called NZ a ‘Tax Haven’, as referenced in the response here

You win your (currently virtual) chocolate fish!

Hilary Stace

Tue, 10 May 2016 14:15:41 +1200

Sorry, I see you already suggested this. FOMO of the cool journalist crowd.

Hilary Stace

Tue, 10 May 2016 14:10:36 +1200

Others have suggested that Duncan Garner, Gower and others are just sulking because they weren't part of this innovative media collaboration

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/panama-papers/303461/how-rnz,-tvnz,-hager-joined-forces

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 10 May 2016 13:44:20 +1200

Interestingly, it's possible to drive a coach and horses through our overseas ownership laws by having the property owned by a company with anonymous bearer shares:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/79802634/overseas-investment-office-unsure-who-owns-onetai-station

Could be El Chappo for all the OAI knows.

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 10 May 2016 13:42:52 +1200

Does Guyon Espiner! always have the pling at the end of his name now, like Yahoo!

Jim Cathcart

Tue, 10 May 2016 13:37:37 +1200

From Naked Capitalism back in 2011, way before dodgy company registration related to money laundering, tax evasion, etc was fashionable.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/08/new-zealand-company-registry-whack-a-mole.html

Marc C

Tue, 10 May 2016 13:22:09 +1200

"But the database already tells us some more subtle things. For instance, while it lists only 47 Mossack Fonseca-connected offshore entities in New Zealand, there are 547 in the Cook Islands, 9611 in Niue and 13,418 in Samoa."

Well, well, well, if that does not tell us something!

I am…

tom dale

Tue, 10 May 2016 13:18:36 +1200

the link is
http://www.tv3.co.nz/October-7th---Treasure-Islands/tabid/2059/articleID/79738/Default.aspx
but the video has been set to private, presumably because they called NZ a 'Tax Haven', as referenced in the response here
http://www.tv3.co.nz/Treasure-Islands-Response-Blog/tabid/2059/articleID/79917/Default.aspx

Tom Johnson

Tue, 10 May 2016 13:09:10 +1200

Garner and Gower seem to be primarily obsessed by the bland indifference of the blue ribbon citizenry of N.Z and their ability to hold majorities in parliament and/or water down any potential opposition Governments vision .

A large chunk of the conservative electorate are not issue based but in love…

Russell Brown

Tue, 10 May 2016 12:41:46 +1200

Also, a chocolate fish to anyone who can find that 2012 60 Minutes report on the TV3 or Newshub websites. The internal link from the programme brief is broken, but on past form, it'll still be there somewhere. (MediaWorks' habit of hiding historical content is really quite odd.)

Public Address

Tue, 10 May 2016 12:41:46 +1200

Discussion from blog post.