Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: For the kids, if nothing else https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address Alex Coleman https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212229#post212229 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212229#post212229 Agreed, however the question was also put to Pita Sharples.

Was a bit interesting that a Minister of the Crown calling it an "assassination" didn't get any attention at all.

]]> Sun, 08 May 2011 12:21:49 +1200 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212226#post212226 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212226#post212226 However the question wasn’t put to Maori, it was put to Hone Harawira, so I can understand him having a position (wherever he got it from) that he won’t speak ill of the dead.

He didn’t do it very well and he’s dug himself a hole as a result, but…

]]> Sun, 08 May 2011 11:45:58 +1200 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212223#post212223 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212223#post212223 I’d like to hear other perspectives on his claim that Maori never speak ill of the dead. It sounds like total bullshit to me.

Probably is bullshit, and in that claim he was therefore probably wrong.

However the question wasn't put to Maori, it was put to Hone Harawira, so…

]]> Sun, 08 May 2011 09:53:17 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212095#post212095 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212095#post212095 “One law” advocates don’t seek equality. How can there be any equality when the rules you want the parties to abide by were written by your side?

I think that is a brilliant position – Thanks.

Yes, Scott explained it well. As does one of my fave instructional cartoons about…

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 16:49:23 +1200 son of little p https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212089#post212089 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212089#post212089 "When cultures clash there is very often no discernible right or wrong–just difference. Who are we to say that our western model of jurisprudence and political thinking is superior?"


i hotly disagree. When cultures clash 'tis not a matter of difference, for when cultures clash 'tis coz they have discovered…

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 16:30:04 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212088#post212088 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212088#post212088 “One law” advocates don’t seek equality. How can there be any equality when the rules you want the parties to abide by were written by your side?

Once again, the above slogan has been used since antiquity to subjugate lesser peoples under the guise of equality. In practice, it's more…

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 16:27:53 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212084#post212084 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212084#post212084 So, the "hot intel" from the computers is that they had an "asipration" to attack American trains.

No details as to which trains, how they were going to make them derail (hey, if it was NZ they were hatin on there'd be an easy way. Just wait for a spot…

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 16:10:15 +1200 DexterX https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212023#post212023 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212023#post212023 “One law” advocates don’t seek equality. How can there be any equality when the rules you want the parties to abide by were written by your side?

I think that is a brilliant position – Thanks.

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 13:42:05 +1200 DexterX https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212021#post212021 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=212021#post212021 Fri, 06 May 2011 13:37:35 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211963#post211963 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211963#post211963 Don Brash and the ACT Party are loathed around these parts

Given their usual core voting support hovers around the margin of error, you may be understating how widespread that sentiment is. Not that it has much relationship to the scale of their influence and the damage they can cause.

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 11:36:34 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211953#post211953 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211953#post211953 I tend to agree the framing doesn’t produce a useful conversation.

Damn right. When I trotted out my own argument ad Hitlerium a friend made this very good point. Winston Peters is nothing like Hitler. He's exactly like Winston Peters – which is more than enough ammo to go on…

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 11:25:52 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211949#post211949 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211949#post211949 I’d like to hear other perspectives on his claim that Maori never speak ill of the dead.

It was fisked pretty much right away by Rangiinui Walker and others, to be fair.

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 11:23:34 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211947#post211947 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211947#post211947 I wonder whether this is an honest failure of his binary brain, or disingenuous bullshit?

I believe Brash is smart enough to be doing this deliberately, though the lack of general public understanding about the Treaty is alarming. Fear is a powerful emotion.

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 11:22:10 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211946#post211946 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211946#post211946 I’d like to hear other perspectives on his claim that Maori never speak ill of the dead. It sounds like total bullshit to me.

With a side order of "bitch, please." Then again, Harawira is very good at playing the long con where he can say kind of bullshit that…

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 11:21:22 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211944#post211944 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211944#post211944 even in the same galaxy

We could seriously discuss how Brash's racism relates to Hitler's – and to similarities in some of our colonial past, but I tend to agree the framing doesn't produce a useful conversation.

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 11:19:25 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211936#post211936 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211936#post211936 Hone’s Hitler comments originally came in response to the Brash Orewa speech and what was widely regarded as National playing the race card for political advantage – Hone’s comments from memory were that Brash’s policies were very much like Hitler’s.

Which was bullshit then, is bullshit now and Harawira needs…

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 11:09:12 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211935#post211935 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211935#post211935 And lawyer Scott Yorke takes on the core problem with "One law for all".
And the 'one law for all' slogan dates back to Ancient Roman times, and more recently appropriated by Klan veteran David Duke. What Brash seems to subscribe to comes across more as model minoritarianism or '[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_whites|honorary…

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 11:05:01 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211926#post211926 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211926#post211926 Other things Hone emphasised was that Mana would be a strong and independent Maori voice in parliament as opposed to the Maori party and a voice counter to Goff and Labour who Hone considered are not champions of the working class. This last bit I happen to agree with in… ]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 10:52:34 +1200 ChrisW https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211907#post211907 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211907#post211907 But the “one law for all” argument also ignores a rather obvious problem: that the one law Dr Brash and others refer to was largely an alien law imposed by the British on the locals

I agree with you and ScottY that Brash's exclusive focus on Article 3 of the…

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 10:17:13 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211890#post211890 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211890#post211890 And lawyer Scott Yorke takes on the core problem with "One law for all".

There’s another aspect to the issues raised by Brash’s shit-stirring over race that I want to discuss, and that is his claim that the Treaty guarantees one law for all, and that anything other than one…

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 09:35:57 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211888#post211888 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211888#post211888 Lew writes eloquently and concisely about Treaty relations after the Brash/Harawira screening and highlights the fundamental cultural contradiction in the position Brash espouses. A must-read.

Pākehā society, by refusing to honour the Treaty, isn’t honouring its contract with the Tangata Whenua of this land. That breach is not the breach…

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 09:09:01 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211886#post211886 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211886#post211886 Fri, 06 May 2011 08:54:47 +1200 DexterX https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211878#post211878 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211878#post211878 I am not that offended by what Hone has said about Brash, but I was pissed at his Paris trip a few years back.

Hone's Hitler comments originally came in response to the Brash Orewa speech and what was widely regarded as National playing the race card for political advantage…

]]> Fri, 06 May 2011 07:40:18 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211870#post211870 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211870#post211870 If Hone can provide the voice for and play a part in the leadership for a grass roots Maori renascence then I am prepared to listen to what he eventually has to say.

I've got to ask this one more time: So Harawira gets a complete pass for trotting out…

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 22:14:40 +1200 DexterX https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211866#post211866 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211866#post211866 Thu, 05 May 2011 19:35:23 +1200 DexterX https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211865#post211865 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211865#post211865 Thanks for the two posts re Hone.

Hone was asked his view and he gave it. I didn't find his view offensive – it isn’t my view.

Is Hone apologising for how others interpreted what they thought he meant – what he said wasn't that off – he is qualified…

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 19:31:38 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211863#post211863 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211863#post211863 A little more detail on the items of interest taken from the compound:

10 computers, 10 mobile phones and about 100 flash drives. Bin Laden also had 500 euros and two telephone numbers stitched into his clothes. It's hard to imagine there won't be something in all that.

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 19:10:33 +1200 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211855#post211855 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211855#post211855 I think so- one of the things that even amateur wannabes (or archaeology groupies*) quickly learn is that archaeology holds up the mirrors as to how hominoids, right the way through to us, have treated both the living & the dead.
Had my time over again, I'd've been an archaeologist...or a…

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 18:15:15 +1200 Kracklite https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211854#post211854 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211854#post211854 Thu, 05 May 2011 18:03:58 +1200 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211853#post211853 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211853#post211853 Thu, 05 May 2011 17:58:13 +1200 Kracklite https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211849#post211849 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211849#post211849 why not acknowledge that being highly disrespectful to dead human bodies has been part of humanity ever since we were mere homonoids?

You might be very interested in Timothy Taylor’s The Buried Soul: How Humans Invented Death. Taylor is an archaeologist and the book is a damned good read, looking…

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 17:35:02 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211847#post211847 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211847#post211847 Phil Goff’s rejection of Harawira and his party is starting to look quite wise now.

But still where Winston Peters is concerned... I guess all brown-necked ass-clowns are "extreme", but some brown-necked ass-clowns are more extreme than others.

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 17:31:51 +1200 nzlemming https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211839#post211839 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211839#post211839 Thu, 05 May 2011 16:36:09 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211833#post211833 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211833#post211833 I apologise for how I expressed myself.

Coming to be his catch-cry.

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 15:32:16 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211832#post211832 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211832#post211832 This just in ...

PRESS RELEASE

Hone Harawira
Te Reo Motuhake o Te Tai Tokerau
Thursday 5 May 2011


On Tuesday when I was a guest on Te Karere I was asked to comment on the death of Osama Bin Laden.

As Maori we do not speak ill of someone…

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 15:25:57 +1200 Neil Morrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211827#post211827 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211827#post211827 Thu, 05 May 2011 14:38:37 +1200 Rich Lock https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211820#post211820 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211820#post211820 Thu, 05 May 2011 13:29:01 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211818#post211818 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211818#post211818 Phil Goff's rejection of Harawira and his party is starting to look quite wise now

Similarly with the Maori Party's rejection.

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 13:10:15 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211816#post211816 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211816#post211816 Stuff has the video of Hone Harawira praising Bin Laden.

Gordon Campbell has a few choice words for Harawira.

Phil Goff's rejection of Harawira and his party is starting to look quite wise now.

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 12:27:19 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211813#post211813 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211813#post211813 Or perhaps Israel’s when they put Adolph Eichmann on trial, just 16 years after WW2, and not only demonstrated to the world that they had treated a monster fairly, but for all time showed that there was a moral gulf between them and us.

That said, I’m doubtful we could…

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 10:52:40 +1200 James Butler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211807#post211807 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211807#post211807 I do have to note that deliberate parasitic worm infection has shown a lot of promise in clinical trials of the treatment of Chron’s and Ulcerative Colitis (Inflammatory Bowel Diseases). And with the choice of your immune system eating your digestive tract, or have worms coexist in it, I think… ]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 10:31:20 +1200 David Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211803#post211803 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211803#post211803 Just listened. Priceless.

I do have to note that deliberate parasitic worm infection has shown a lot of promise in clinical trials of the treatment of Chron's and Ulcerative Colitis (Inflammatory Bowel Diseases). And with the choice of your immune system eating your digestive tract, or have worms coexist in…

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 09:33:19 +1200 Neil Morrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211802#post211802 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211802#post211802 The Obama administration is more flexible in pursuing goals than previous administrations..

flexible and fortunate. He goes into the meeting with Netanyahu having gotten rid of one of Israel's most notorious enemies, having an arab country celebrate US military intervention on the side of democracy as well as playing a…

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 09:27:00 +1200 DexterX https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211801#post211801 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211801#post211801 In response to Simon –

Eichmann was working for Mercedes Benz in Argentina at the time – WW II was well over, it is a different world now.

The moral gulf between them and "us" you are talking about is Nazis and "us" – that is still huge IMHO.

What…

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 08:53:13 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211797#post211797 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211797#post211797 "stop bombing a whole country because one guy might be hiding there", actually.

Especially when it turns out he is not actually there.

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 08:06:19 +1200 Simon Grigg https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211791#post211791 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211791#post211791 I'd trust FDR's judgement

Or perhaps Israel's when they put Adolph Eichmann on trial, just 16 years after WW2, and not only demonstrated to the world that they had treated a monster fairly, but for all time showed that there was a moral gulf between them and us.

That said,…

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 03:11:54 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211788#post211788 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211788#post211788 Elsewhere, it's a cold night so warm you hands at the blazing bonfire of straw men constructed by Brian Edwards.

I’m with the cheering crowds of New Yorkers at Ground Zero. I rejoice with them at the removal from this earth of a purely evil creature who premeditatedly planned, directed,…

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 01:04:29 +1200 Lucy Stewart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211787#post211787 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211787#post211787 Obama only has to deal with the clamour of "bomb the arab tyrant" rather than "stop bombing the arab tyrant".

The anti-war protests for Iraq and Afghanistan were more "stop bombing the innocent Arab people who get killed and injured when you try to bomb the tyrant and miss" and…

]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 00:58:47 +1200 Neil Morrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211783#post211783 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211783#post211783 The mission to kill OBL can be seen as part of a wider foreign policy initiative, that if the US is going to again attempt to broker a peace in the Middle East they also have to have the support at home for a perceived “massive” change in foreign policy… ]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 22:57:31 +1200 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211782#post211782 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211782#post211782 Just listened. Priceless.
Guinea worms. Right up there with kero guns.

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 22:45:12 +1200 JLM https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211781#post211781 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211781#post211781 *speaking of rotters I hope you all heard David Haywood talking serious shit on National Radio’s 9 to Noon today…

Just listened. Priceless.

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 22:38:32 +1200 DexterX https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211779#post211779 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211779#post211779 Treating the body of OBL with respect shows the incredible degree of planning and awareness that went into the mission and securing the outcome.

There is an astute awareness of foreign policy considerations and diplomatic outcomes.

The USA under the Obama administration are different, that astute awareness incorporates a high…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 21:41:03 +1200 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211776#post211776 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211776#post211776 Yeah, and they’d need a skytower too- wait! They’re disposing of corpses according to religious beliefs from warships now?
O, grue-

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 20:48:31 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211775#post211775 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211775#post211775 Wed, 04 May 2011 20:39:16 +1200 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211773#post211773 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211773#post211773 Not yet!
But will, very soon...

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 19:44:33 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211772#post211772 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211772#post211772 Consumers are genuinely inter-rested in becoming the consumed Natural Burials
rotters to the last...*

...not quite the same thing as the NY Daily News had in mind though....

*speaking of rotters I hope you all heard David Haywood talking serious shit on National Radio's 9 to Noon today...

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 19:41:40 +1200 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211771#post211771 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211771#post211771 Whilst agreeing with other parties to this discussion about respect to dead humans, I’d like to extend the discussion a wee bit:
*why limit it to dead humans? We tend to teat certain animal bodies with dreadful disrespect (and I am NOT speaking about turning them into meat-
**why not…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 19:14:25 +1200 Alex Coleman https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211770#post211770 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211770#post211770 Nice reference Craig.

The other point that looms large is that when your opponent is trying to convince his co-religionists that you hate their religion, it’s not rocket surgery to avoid acting like a spiteful dick WRT their religion.

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 18:53:45 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211767#post211767 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211767#post211767 But I do think there are practicalities involved which, at least in this case, favor respecting the customs of the culture from which the dead person came. For starters, tit-for-tat is a likely outcome of disrespect.

Quite — I believe Homer is still required reading at West Point, and there's…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 17:48:46 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211753#post211753 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211753#post211753 That is to say, recycled where possible (I'm a donor) and then run through one of those tree shredders, or something, and used for compost. The Swedes do it already though not in quite that way.

You've still invested some thought into a disposal that suits your "belief system". Just…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 15:40:27 +1200 Rex Widerstrom https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211749#post211749 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211749#post211749 there are common decencies that are not negotiable. Like not treating human bodies like trash

I wonder how much of the moral basis of that comes from religious tradition, even for the non-religious?

Since I don't believe any part of me is headed for rencarnation, floating about playing a harp,…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 15:14:23 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211745#post211745 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211745#post211745 On a less serious note, I remember going to Star Wars IV, I think it was at His Majesty's on Queen Street.

I remember queuing so long for it that I missed the start. Ah, those were the days.

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 15:04:52 +1200 nzlemming https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211743#post211743 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211743#post211743 Wed, 04 May 2011 15:00:04 +1200 Rex Widerstrom https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211742#post211742 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211742#post211742 Most of the assorted "late night" hosts I find cringingly unfunny, aside from the slightly demented Craig Ferguson. But they've managed to come out with some decent one-liners on this topic so, in the interests of making light of slaughter...

Jay Leno:

Osama bin Laden was apparently shot twice in…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 14:57:12 +1200 recordari https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211741#post211741 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211741#post211741 Battlestar Galactica at the Civic with Sensaround. Booyah!

I was 10.

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 14:43:45 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211740#post211740 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211740#post211740 Wed, 04 May 2011 14:14:29 +1200 James Butler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211736#post211736 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211736#post211736 I first started feeling old the year I realised that most school leavers would have been born after Labyrinth.

That was a long time ago.

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 14:00:21 +1200 Rich Lock https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211735#post211735 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211735#post211735 Would you have gone out of your way to give Joseph Mengle or Heinrich Himmer a nice burial? I wouldn't have.

Been spending a bit of time gazing into the abyss recently, James?

Probably would have been better to torture them to death, eh? Make them scream. That'll learn them.…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 13:59:53 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211734#post211734 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211734#post211734 On a slightly serious note. One of the big problems with US relations with the middle east was the failure to recognise that people with different upbringings and religions could deeply offended to the point of violence by casual disregard of their ideology.

Don't park your bum on your Maori…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 13:59:25 +1200 Lucy Stewart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211731#post211731 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211731#post211731 http://www.xkcd.com/647/
And even that was two years ago…

Also, this, though I'm not sure it's really aimed at you lot.

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 13:46:52 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211729#post211729 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211729#post211729 Snigger. The mental image of a classic ’60s stereotypical secretary, hair in a bun, glasses on, short tight skirt, high heels, sitting on a chair in the cave next to Bin Laden as she replicates his pontifications in shorthand on a notepad was… odd, to say the least :)

I…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 13:44:38 +1200 James Butler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211727#post211727 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211727#post211727 this? ]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 13:38:23 +1200 Gareth Ward https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211726#post211726 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211726#post211726 I was fourteen in 2001.

http://www.xkcd.com/647/
And even that was two years ago...

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 13:33:59 +1200 James Butler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211725#post211725 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211725#post211725 "Nigger, is you taking notes on a criminal fucking conspiracy?" ]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 13:31:23 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211722#post211722 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211722#post211722 You really think they model their organisation on the New Zealand Defence Force or the Jupiter Mining Corporation?

What you mean they don't have to submit a travel report after delivering timing devices and they don't have to keep receipts for their expense claim???

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 13:27:43 +1200 webweaver https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211718#post211718 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211718#post211718 Wed, 04 May 2011 13:16:39 +1200 nzlemming https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211717#post211717 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211717#post211717 Wed, 04 May 2011 13:11:37 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211713#post211713 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211713#post211713 *cough* Steganography. Stenography is reasonably sophisticated, but I don’t think you’re just referring to taking notes in shorthand.

Giggle. Trivial typing error completely changes meaning of sentence …

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 13:01:32 +1200 JackElder https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211711#post211711 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211711#post211711

relatively sophisticated techniques such as stenography

*cough* Steganography. Stenography is reasonably sophisticated, but I don't think you're just referring to taking notes in shorthand.

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 12:45:23 +1200 Mikaere Curtis https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211708#post211708 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211708#post211708

enhanced interrogation

Weasel words. The correct term is torture, and what is torture is if not individualised terrorism ? What's that ? You might get some information from the torture ? Got it now, terrorism is OK if it can be justified. Irony-nui.

If you want to call that “craven…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 12:23:51 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211707#post211707 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211707#post211707 Wed, 04 May 2011 12:15:02 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211706#post211706 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211706#post211706 Because mine gets antsy with fucking around with the basic, and non-negotiable, taboo that you don't disrespect the dead.

Death customs are one of the least rational of our morals, hence the enormous variance in them. In some cultures the dead are left for scavengers to eat. In others, humans…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 12:14:30 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211704#post211704 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211704#post211704 I know most of you can’t imagine doing anything without using the latest cool Apple(TM) applications to stylishly fluff everything up, but these people are both security conscious *and* consider 632 to be the peak year of mankind’s development. It’s highly likely that they would have done that stuff verbally… ]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 12:07:30 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211702#post211702 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211702#post211702 Perspective, dude. I wouldn’t go desecrating bodies myself, but I can fully understand how people feel that way with respect to this particular body.

So can I. There was a time where I'd have felt a warm glow at the news that the drunk driver responsible for the death of…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 11:54:29 +1200 Kracklite https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211699#post211699 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211699#post211699 Wed, 04 May 2011 11:39:05 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211696#post211696 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211696#post211696 he “sang like a canary” on a continuing basis, presumably because he didn’t want to do anymore involuntary snorkeling without a snorkel

And one of the very good reasons for distrusting torture as an interrogation method is that its results are not consistently reliable. Terrify someone enough, and they'll say…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 11:28:33 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211695#post211695 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211695#post211695 If you want to call that "craven Nazi butt licking", then I say, Sir, you have no decency.

It seems to me that this was again a case of practicality triumphing over understandable human expressions of rage (as we saw with Mussolini's body). The war was over, and this time…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 11:25:01 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211693#post211693 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211693#post211693 Would you have gone out of your way to give Joseph Mengle or Heinrich Himmer a nice burial? I wouldn’t have.

And I’ll close the gate behind you, and ring the bell. Heinrich Himmler committed suicide after he was captured, and for some bizarre reason he was buried in an…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 11:16:00 +1200 Neil Morrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211691#post211691 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211691#post211691 I wish the Obama administration would just be honest and say that, yes, policies that Obama previously opposed did contribute to the success of this important mission.

Bush gave up on the policy of enhanced interrogation in 2006. It wouldn't make much sense for Obama to praise a policy that…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 11:08:46 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211690#post211690 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211690#post211690 If you can’t act better than God-damned Nazis, I don’t know what we’re actually fighting for.

Perspective, dude. I wouldn't go desecrating bodies myself, but I can fully understand how people feel that way with respect to this particular body.

However, it seems to me that the way it was…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 11:05:40 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211689#post211689 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211689#post211689 Would you have gone out of your way to give Joseph Mengle or Heinrich Himmer a nice burial? I wouldn't have.

That says more about your morality than theirs.

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 11:05:26 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211688#post211688 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211688#post211688 They are hopeful

Indeed.

... evidence of targeting plans, names and addresses of al-Qaida members, Bin Laden’s correspondence and his directives …

I know most of you can't imagine doing anything without using the latest cool Apple(TM) applications to stylishly fluff everything up, but these people are both security conscious…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 10:58:30 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211687#post211687 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211687#post211687 Your guy says otherwise:

Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is claiming the information that tipped the U.S. off to terrorist leader Osama bin Laden’s location was not collected through the controversial enhanced interrogation technique known as waterboarding.

“It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 10:55:20 +1200 James Bremner https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211686#post211686 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211686#post211686 Craig, I would submit that Wehrmacht troops are in an altogether different league from Nazis. Would you have gone out of your way to give Joseph Mengle or Heinrich Himmer a nice burial? I wouldn't have.

As far as whether the Repubs and their ideas and policy suggestions are being…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 10:44:59 +1200 James Bremner https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211681#post211681 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211681#post211681 Wed, 04 May 2011 10:32:39 +1200 Whoops https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211679#post211679 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211679#post211679 As for giving him Islamic burial rites, for that bastard, after what he did? He didn’t deserve any respect, let alone craven Islamic butt licking.

What, like harassing the USSR to the point of it giving up an going home, arguably playing a significant part in the down fall of…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 10:20:10 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211677#post211677 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211677#post211677 Why not just put him in a body bag and throw him over the side?

Because we not only should be better than terrorists, but at least as good as the German troops who gave Allied soldiers decent burials after the Battle of Crete, rather than dumping “the enemy” in…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 09:58:22 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211676#post211676 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211676#post211676 So there’ll be no paper trail on a computer – just the normal detritus of life.

I can't see how you can be so very sure of that. The Guardian's story certainly leaves open the possibility of valuable intelligence:

US Navy Seals who raided the Abbottabad compound on Sunday and…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 09:54:35 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211675#post211675 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211675#post211675 we don’t need to grovel to Islam to prove it.

I submit that that right there is your problem.

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 09:48:21 +1200 Alex Coleman https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211674#post211674 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211674#post211674 Actually, according to the timeline that Wired has put together, KSM didn’t cough up the name until 2007, after Bush had stopped waterboarding, and well after his 183 waterboarding sessions. As the authors point out, if the timeline is correct, that means abusive techniques failed to get the information.

Steve…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 09:47:24 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211673#post211673 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211673#post211673 I still think that main issue will be economics which will be bad ground to play on for Obama ($5 a gallon gas and 8% unemployment will be tough to overcome),

Feinstein's stating the obvious there, but Obama's helped enormously by the profound (and increasingly obvious) unseriousness of the GOP…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 09:46:41 +1200 Stephen Judd https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211671#post211671 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211671#post211671 Sounds like Waihopai is part of a system that enabled getting bin Laden without recourse to torture.

Is it? Perhaps it's part of a system that incorporates torture for some things and not others.

See, I can make oblique trolls that don't clearly state a point too.

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 09:39:14 +1200 James Bremner https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211670#post211670 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211670#post211670 Wed, 04 May 2011 09:39:04 +1200 Neil Morrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211668#post211668 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211668#post211668 From that Wired article:

It took more traditional sleuthing to get al-Kuwaiti’s real name, according to the Times. That meant putting more operatives on the ground in Afghanistan and Pakistan to track him, yielding a partial name. Once they had that, they unleashed “one of their greatest investigative tools“: the…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 09:23:46 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211667#post211667 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211667#post211667 Well, I guess you’d be surprised at how much intelligence can be gained from even the deleted sectors of those hard drives.

You really think they model their organisation on the New Zealand Defence Force or the Jupiter Mining Corporation? That there’ll be files full of minutes and memos from…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 09:19:06 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211666#post211666 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211666#post211666 As for giving him Islamic burial rites, for that bastard, after what he did? He didn’t deserve any respect, let alone craven Islamic butt licking.

I believe the idea is to be better than the terrorists.

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 09:12:05 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211665#post211665 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211665#post211665 And yes, some of the info that resulted in getting UBL came from rendition and waterboarding. KSM gave up the nom de guerre of the courier, and KSM didn’t give up anything until he was waterboarded, after which he apparently “sang like a canary”.

Actually, according to [[http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05/surveillance-not-waterboarding-led-to-bin-laden/|the timeline that…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 09:07:27 +1200 nzlemming https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211663#post211663 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211663#post211663 Wed, 04 May 2011 08:58:24 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211661#post211661 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211661#post211661 He didn’t deserve any respect, let alone craven Islamic butt licking.

Do you actually believe any shit you write, James, or is this some meta-troll. I do love the way certain sections of the American right have defined down any respect for the rule of law, national sovereignty and simple…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 08:46:11 +1200 James Bremner https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211659#post211659 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211659#post211659 Wed, 04 May 2011 08:24:59 +1200 Lucy Stewart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211654#post211654 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211654#post211654 It seems the White House is thinking of releasing the photos of his dead body, but can someone explain how on earth this will give further closure? Surely it will martyr his image.

I'd think the only reason to do that would be to prove to the doubters they'd killed…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 08:01:37 +1200 Tim Croft https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211651#post211651 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211651#post211651 Wed, 04 May 2011 07:37:07 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211649#post211649 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211649#post211649 Hmmm. Hold up on the "we got the goods by torturing KSM" thing ...

More and more evidence suggests a key piece of intelligence — the first link in the chain of information that led U.S. intelligence officials to Osama bin Laden — wasn't tortured out of its source. And,…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 07:09:46 +1200 andin https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211648#post211648 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211648#post211648

I expect for terrorists it will be business as usual. But the US might take the symbolic opportunity to plot a better course.

Hmmmm, with warnings that stress beware of reprisals. It seems the symbolic opportunity is turning into ramping up of tension. Maybe its business as usual and terrorism…

]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 06:42:17 +1200 Lucy Stewart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211635#post211635 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211635#post211635 I thought that when she was 14! O_o

You thought I was seven the first time we ran into each other online? Now I'm disturbed.

Well, I guess you’d be surprised at how much intelligence can be gained from even the deleted sectors of those hard drives. Try not to…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 23:21:18 +1200 Christopher Dempsey https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211626#post211626 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211626#post211626 Tue, 03 May 2011 21:16:25 +1200 nzlemming https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211621#post211621 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211621#post211621 Yeah, all they have to do is find the file called SecretListOfAllTheWorldsTerrorists.doc and go nail the bad guys. Easy

Well, I guess you'd be surprised at how much intelligence can be gained from even the deleted sectors of those hard drives. Try not to be too much of an idiot,…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 20:07:11 +1200 Danielle https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211620#post211620 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211620#post211620

I just thought that meant she was early 30s.

No, I really only get antsy when people were B.A.W. (Born After Wham!).

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 20:05:04 +1200 nzlemming https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211618#post211618 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211618#post211618 Gawd, from the maturity of your writing I'd always picked that you were in your 30s

I thought that when she was 14! O_o

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 19:49:57 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211614#post211614 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211614#post211614

Fair call. So long as you factor in what photojournalist Tim Hetherington – shortly before he was wounded and bled to death in the street last week – called “indiscriminate shelling” by Gadaffi’s forces of civilian areas of Misrata.

I don’t claim to have an answer, but there’s a genuine…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 19:01:41 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211613#post211613 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211613#post211613 It must be served up with a helping of despair for Gaddafi’s three grandchildren. The wheels on the bus…

Fair call. So long as you factor in what photojournalist Tim Hetherington — shortly before he was wounded and bled to death in the street last week — called "indiscriminate shelling"…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 18:41:31 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211612#post211612 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211612#post211612 I can’t believe you missed Giovanni and me whimpering pathetically on a regular basis about how Lucy is Better Than Us in Every Way and She is Four Years Old. We do it all the time. ;)

I just thought that meant she was early 30s. People in this bracket…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 18:35:12 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211605#post211605 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211605#post211605

It would be nice to think there was a moment here. For the kids, if nothing else.

It must be served up with a helping of despair for Gaddafi’s three grandchildren. The wheels on the bus...

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 17:33:14 +1200 James Butler https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211592#post211592 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211592#post211592 sans any evidence that they played any part at all. Made my feijoa taste… ]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 16:08:58 +1200 Danielle https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211591#post211591 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211591#post211591

Gawd, from the maturity of your writing I’d always picked that you were in your 30s.

I can’t believe you missed Giovanni and me whimpering pathetically on a regular basis about how Lucy is Better Than Us in Every Way and She is Four Years Old. We do it all…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 16:07:53 +1200 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211590#post211590 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211590#post211590 Tue, 03 May 2011 16:01:20 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211589#post211589 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211589#post211589 That could potentially make quite a big difference

Yeah, all they have to do is find the file called SecretListOfAllTheWorldsTerrorists.doc and go nail the bad guys. Easy.

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 15:55:37 +1200 Simon Grigg https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211583#post211583 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211583#post211583 It will be in single figures by now.

I'm not sure about that though. Rising Islamic fundamentalism is a huge problem in the country – attacks on churches, conservative takeover of local government, and the Islamification of the tertiary institutes are the cause of much concern.

If you read the…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 15:09:12 +1200 Simon Grigg https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211582#post211582 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211582#post211582 Or am I misreading something...

Not at all, and I don't think the Arab Spring makes much difference there. However other polling has been done in Indonesia, which slightly modifies that picture:

A year or two ago there was a poll – Pew too I think – and when asked…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 15:00:01 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211581#post211581 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211581#post211581 took away a "treasure trove" of computer hardware from the mansion. That could potentially make quite a big difference. ]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 14:56:38 +1200 recordari https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211580#post211580 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211580#post211580 The correspondent's dinner speech has also gone viral. And while the timing of it in the context of the Bin Laden situation seems a little chilling, he certainly seemed to come up trumps.

Or give Trump his comeuppance.

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 14:54:00 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211578#post211578 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211578#post211578 Yes...well that was then. Will there be a lessening of tension from this?

I expect for terrorists it will be business as usual. But the US might take the symbolic opportunity to plot a better course.

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 14:41:23 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211577#post211577 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211577#post211577 Shouldn’t this stat be a little concerning? I mean, there are 200 million (give or take) Muslims in Indonesia, so what, around 50 million support Bin Laden? Or am I misreading something…

There are nuances there. Even in 2007, only 10% of Indonesian Muslims said that suicide bombing was always…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 14:39:30 +1200 Jonty https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211576#post211576 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211576#post211576 Great letter in the NY Times yesterday:

'No man is an island, entire unto himself:...Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee.'

Mr. Osama bin Laden has been removed from this Earth…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 14:38:53 +1200 BlairMacca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211575#post211575 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211575#post211575 I was fourteen in 2001 I was 19, second year at uni, studying international relations of all things, so it was certainly an interesting time (albeit not in a good way). I do remember the week or so after a lot of friends being fairly terrified that world war three… ]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 14:38:53 +1200 andin https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211574#post211574 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211574#post211574

Then they did the most obvious thing that should have been done long before, they worked out how to surrender.

Yes...well that was then. Will there be a lessening of tension from this?

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 14:37:07 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211571#post211571 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211571#post211571 But … even before yesterday, it suddenly started to close up.

I'd have to look at the dates, but it can't have helped that Donald Trump kicked the birther crazy up to levels even many wing-nuts were backing away from, and the GOP's budget plans aren't pleasing anyone.

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 14:29:01 +1200 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211570#post211570 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211570#post211570 Amongst Indonesian Muslims, [confidence in Bin Laden] dropped from 59% to 26%.

Shouldn't this stat be a little concerning? I mean, there are 200 million (give or take) Muslims in Indonesia, so what, around 50 million support Bin Laden? Or am I misreading something...

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 14:25:01 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211569#post211569 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211569#post211569 The next few polls are going to be very interesting.

Yes, I get the impression he's only just warming up.

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 14:21:29 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211567#post211567 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211567#post211567 And I suppose this means Obama will get a second term and the Democrats might regain the House of Representatives due to mission accomplished…

I look pretty regularly at Talking Points Memo’s poll tracker, and Obama has slid out to a -5% approval rating over the last month or so.…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 14:13:17 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211561#post211561 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211561#post211561 this article by Gary Brecher. (via Eddies post on The Standard). ]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 14:03:28 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211559#post211559 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211559#post211559 surely once this is over we can get back to being normal, we can get back to acting like civilised human beings.

I'd like to. In fact, I'm starting today, going to list out long term goals. Something I haven't done since...about 2001. I almost feel like my plans just…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 14:01:46 +1200 Craig Young https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211557#post211557 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211557#post211557 An excellent article on the whole Afghanistan strategic nightmare is...

Matthieu Adkins: “Disappearing Ink” Harpers: January 2011: 39-44.

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 13:59:56 +1200 Craig Young https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211555#post211555 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211555#post211555 Tue, 03 May 2011 13:53:00 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211554#post211554 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211554#post211554 these are things that may be amenable to symbolism

That's it! That's why this feels different. I know that the death of one terrorist shouldn't make a difference, but symbols are important to us apes.

Or he's just a grown-up Yeah, nah. I really don't think many grown ups could…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 13:49:19 +1200 81stcolumn https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211553#post211553 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211553#post211553 But these are kids who have lived in a country under heavy manners for half their lives.

And I believe they are entitled to the same sense of relief that many young Europeans felt with the fall of the Berlin Wall. I can't say that I shared in that relief…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 13:48:31 +1200 Lucy Stewart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211550#post211550 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211550#post211550 I read this not long after 9/11 and have been waiting for that “when it was over” time ever since. Are we there yet?

I don't think we ever get there. I'm pretty sure people have been feeling the same way for centuries now, through all sorts of war and…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 13:45:46 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211547#post211547 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211547#post211547 I was fourteen in 2001.

Gawd, from the maturity of your writing I'd always picked that you were in your 30s. It makes me feel young again to feel the same way as you when you say:

It doesn't feel celebratory, though; it just feels like the cap on that…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 13:34:13 +1200 Rich Lock https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211545#post211545 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211545#post211545 We might find the noisy celebration of a killing distasteful

Yep. Probably for the same reason that I find the death sentence distasteful.

Oh, you'll love this then. In the face of the biggest news story of the day, Stuff lives up to it's reputation as the home of hard…

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 13:30:41 +1200 Lucy Stewart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211540#post211540 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211540#post211540 Many probably couldn’t recall using an airport without the sense of dread engendered by the post-911 security response, or living in a country that wasn’t at war with a noun. Regardless of how much anything has really changed, they were entitled to feel that some sort of weight had been… ]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 13:19:35 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211538#post211538 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211538#post211538 This video from Ground Zero is also full of young people. I don't think anyone could have predicted this happening.

It's like Armistice Day. Perhaps they feel the War on Terror is over? That's something to hope for.

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 13:16:26 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211536#post211536 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211536#post211536 … the man has icewater in his veins.

Or he's just a grown-up who understands that what he does and says has real and lasting consequences beyond the next polling cycle.

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 13:00:47 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211535#post211535 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211535#post211535 This video from Ground Zero is also full of young people. I don't think anyone could have predicted this happening. ]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 12:56:43 +1200 James Littlewood* https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211533#post211533 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211533#post211533 We might find the noisy celebration of a killing distasteful

Yep. Probably for the same reason that I find the death sentence distasteful.

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 12:51:22 +1200 Nick Melchior https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211532#post211532 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211532#post211532 Tue, 03 May 2011 12:49:44 +1200 Brent Jackson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211520#post211520 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211520#post211520 ... or living in a country that wasn’t at war with a noun

Heh.

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 12:28:22 +1200 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211519#post211519 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-for-the-kids-if-nothing-else/?p=211519#post211519 Discussion from blog post.

]]> Tue, 03 May 2011 12:28:22 +1200