down with the buns and chocolate

Thanks, pagans.

But telling parents they are stupid for their wrong beliefs, is not going to win any converts. So what does work in persuading people to change their fundamental beliefs?

Random and tangential musings follow...

Maybe by somehow arguing that there should be no fundamental beliefs that are held as absolute…

Oook! (Orangutan)

Nice Monkey o shit...

'I don't trust books. They're all fact, no heart.' – Stephen Colbert

'Books are a load of crap.' – Philip Larkin (poet and librarian)

Jesus Art

JC takes it for the sins of Global Capitalism, but makes a special exception for Levi Strauss & Co?

by making good scientific arguments

Steven, I think that approach would only work for people who respect a certain type of fact.

It's the difference between saying 'I completely disagree with you, because of x,y,z' and saying 'You are stupid because you think this' . This site does the former very well, while other sites prefer instant web rage.

I am interested in why people think things even though they are…

I don't see any reason why Christian scholars would have invented a passage that blamed them for the Great Fire.

Except that it doesn't really say that, it says that they were persecuted for it, which Suetonius also says and I think there are other sources. This could well be…

The simple fact is, on balance if you will, we really have no idea, once you leave belief driven by faith behind, whether he existed or not.

The point has been made – and not only by committed Christians, although they certainly have done so – that the writings which…

Like most ancient hstorians whose works have survived, Tacitus…

a century of scholarship

longer than that, going back to this chap

But on balance it seems more probable than not that Jesus lived.

the problem is, it wasn't an uncommon name. Mark sums up the problems with the oft quoted evidence rather well I think. There is also the…

We do at least know that he was a Capricorn, he ate organic foods, he believed in love and peace and never wore no shoes.

Unlikely. December in Judaea is not a time that you're out in the fields with your sheep, as it's too cold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv7SttbcHIk

We do at least know that he was a Capricorn,

Unlikely. December in Judaea is not a time that you're out in the fields with your sheep, as it's too cold. The christmas feast was placed in December by the early church in an attempt (largely successful) to subsume the…

That doesn't mean we have to accept the Jesus that lived did all the things described in the New Testament.

Which is why people tend to, like, make their own Jesus from available materials? My favourite would be Mikail Bulgakov's Yeshua Ha-Notrsi/Ha-Nozri from The Master and Margarita , tried by…

The passages in Josephus are generally thought to be fake, inserted into the text later.

Rather than "fake", I think the consensus is "possibly altered". That doesn't mean all of the passages are fake, though.

Tacitus is the only one who is clearly speaking of a man.

Indeed, and Tacitus…

Good with lepers. Not so good with church leaders, interestingly

He probably wouldn't like these guys

Tacitus and Pliny are both writing more than 80 years after the supposed crucifixion, Lucian later still. They write about Christians and refer to their worship of Christ, but Tacitus is the only one who…

Historical Jesus

Historicity of Jesus

Christ myth theory

Carpenter, I heard. Built ornamental eggs and suchlike.

That's the guy. Also a handy bloke with fish and bread if a few extras unexpectedly drop by.

Good with lepers. Not so good with church leaders, interestingly.

Don't you go summoning the candyman..

How else are we going to get this thread to 80+ pages?

He's mentioned a couple of times by the historian Josephus, a first century Jewish historian who became a Roman citizen.

Tacitus, the Roman historian of about the same time, mentions Jesus, as well as the…

Evidence is the stuff you can use in court, y'know.

Yes, but Rob wrote "a matter of biblical record", not historical. Although the matter of the historical Jesus has a century of scholarship behind it and most historians agree that the guy did actually live.

None of the Gospels are contemporary. Matthew and Luke both take the story told in Mark and embellish it. John, as Giovanni says, is mostly about John. So it is not as if we have four independent witness statements.

We really have little idea what he did or did not like, or for that matter whether he actually was.

We do at least know that he was a Capricorn, he ate organic foods, he believed in love and peace and never wore no shoes.

No bibical evidence?

Hardly evidence, mostly 2nd or 3rd generation stories. There's been a whole industry going back centuries attempting to verify the NT, but it's largely come up empty handed to date.

Evidence is the stuff you can use in court, y'know.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no contemporary record of JC, either biblical...

No bibical evidence? The New Testament is entirely about the guy. Apart from the Gospel of John, that is really mostly about what a swell guy John was.

It's also a matter of biblical record that JC liked a drop himself

Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no contemporary record of JC, either biblical or otherwise. We really have little idea what he did or did not like, or for that matter whether he actually was.

So heaven consists of watching drunken relatives dancing to Come on Eileen?

Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?

The only time Jesus actually describes heaven, he says it is like a wedding feast.

So heaven consists of watching drunken relatives dancing to Come on Eileen?

Where did the term, kicking the bucket come from?

Suicides. Stand on upturned bucket, rope round rafter, t'other end around neck.

Kick bucket, say hello to next world.

Not entirely. We are social creatures, To do absolutely what we want could land us in jail.

But whether we want to act in a social or an antisocial manner is, arguably, a matter of free will.

I, of my own free (?) will, make certain choices on a day-to-day…

Why do people talk about death as passing on or over if they don't think there is a destination?

I suspect for a variety of reasons. Euphemism being one. People are funny about death, I've noticed.

About the only tenet of my religious upbringing I still have is the idea…

Passed away is probably more common, but any are surely just to give some comfort to those left behind. 'She's / he's dead' doesn't have the same implied sense of placidity that we need to assign to the departed to make ourselves feel better.

Another way to explain "passed away"…

Why do people talk about death as passing on or over if they don't think there is a destination?

Some people. I'd dearly love to believe that some of my family have 'passed on' to the Elysium fields and are keeping a seat warm and a pint cold for me.…

Why do pakeha have more trouble with the concept of an afterlife than Maori who acknowledge the presence of ancestors on formal occasions?

Here in Bali at the mo' there's a bit of a rabies scare and the street dogs are being culled in large numbers (which, if done humanely,…

People are always finding ways of incorporating good ideas and criticisms into their personal positioning strategies. It makes me want to not. I am such a rebel like that.

It's not the good ideas I mind obviously, it's the scarcely concealed implication, 'this is how neat I am', which leads…

Why do people talk about death as passing on or over

Passed away is probably more common, but any are surely just to give some comfort to those left behind. 'She's / he's dead' doesn't have the same implied sense of placidity that we need to assign to the departed…

Why do people talk about death as passing on or over if they don't think there is a destination?

"Passed on" or "passed over" are common euphemisms for "died". We should be careful about attributing meanings to words or phrases when no such meanings are intended.

There, done.

And what really happened to the historical Jesus?

That they nailed him to a cross is, I think, generally accepted by most historians.

As for his resurrection, I don't personally believe any of it, but then that's just my view.

From my experience of being with people dying from terminal illness I've noticed that a little while before they…

On the other hand, if people want to put forward their…

Critisism here.

And here.

And here.

And here.

And here.

And here.

It is human nature to specuate on the nature of existence. But I would very gently suggest that pseudoscience is not the way…

It's not the good ideas I mind obviously, it's the scarcely concealed implication, 'this is how neat I am', which leads to the feeling that you're less having a genuine conversation than participating in someone's extended image management effort.

I think that's unfair. Isn't it human nature to speculate on…

It's not the good ideas I mind obviously, it's the scarcely concealed implication, 'this is how neat I am', which leads…

Ruaumoko, kia ora!

Pops up in this more popular guise of late, and as the name of the marae at the Kelston Deaf Education Centre. Stomp!

Because thinking about things like quantum entanglement mangles even the cleverest brains? And no matter how awesome that shit is, it doesn't help to put bread on the table, or offer direct and easy solutions to social problems?

Quantum entanglement, at a distance, even! Synchronicity – told ya. Tho quantum…

Ruaumoko

Looked into his throat a while back at the Waimangu Valley. Very impressive. A close relative of the giant Japanese namazu, I reckon.

I didn't think this was a competition. Or evangelism. Just a safe place to express ideas.

You don't even have to evangelise. Just pursuing an 'impure'…

...if they wish to “Go Quantum” by using a randomization function on their DVD player, the film restructures itself every time it’s viewed so it’s never the same film twice

There are a few classic films this would work wonders for ;-)

I rest my case.

I didn't think this was a competition. Or evangelism. Just a safe place to express ideas.

Might have something to do with 800yrs experience eh?

The one thing that didnt get factored in (tho' it is part of the legend myth corpus) is tsunami.

Far out. Really? They did the roughcasting around the skirts of some houses (and the odd patio) like that in Pt Chev and people think that was bad.

Really. And expect people to be sentenced in a few years for some of this. A couple of weeks ago was the…

I rest my case.

I guess you read that in Rainbow News, not the New Scientist.

The movie 'Down the rabbit hole' has both physicists and astrologers discussing such possibilities.

*Maori have the answer!

Go on...

Oh, and a bloke called Giorgio Moroder

I'm just glad that He is a loving and gentle Mod, rather than cruel and vengeful.

He does move in mysterious ways, but.

It's a concept album. The concept is hating women.

Oh wow. Is Alan Parsons a Nice Guy (TM)?

And the closer we look, the less we know we know. The nature of nature is spooky at its most fundamental level. It offers and promises phenomena that do look a lot like magic in the context of the understandings we use to be human.

The remarkable thing is that…

Italy was completely immune to the very dubious charm of Abba

Dammit. I knew that country must have one flaw.

And dredging it up…

My bookshelf is bigger than your bookshelf...? :)

Hey, I like it that people here know way more than me about specialist subjects.

I think Our Lord Mod was more concerned with the tone of the discussion rather than the content, although it is not for me to interpret His…

You've got to give us point for that.

What I do give Italy points for is the grand tradition of quite twisted 70s and 80s Italo Disco. Some of it is very good.

Oh, and a bloke called Giorgio Moroder

That's entirely probable. On the other hand, I'd like to point out that Italy was completely immune to the very dubious charm of Abba. You've got to give us point for that.

Au contraire, as they say in another Romance language. Abba is one of the few acts to emerge…

at least until you discover that it had been built with concrete mixed in with beach sand.

Far out. Really? They did the roughcasting around the skirts of some houses (and the odd patio) like that in Pt Chev and people think that was bad.

I think it's a European thing Giovanni. Almost every German I meet over a certain age asks me what my favourite Barclay James Harvest album is....

That's entirely probable. On the other hand, I'd like to point out that Italy was completely immune to the very dubious charm of Abba.…

though it's hard to listen to some of their earlier work without cringing.

Prog hell for me will always be Jon Anderson & Co. Pick any lyric from here and grimace.

Hey! Some of us still like that stuff.

I think it's a European thing Giovanni. Almost every German I meet…

Hey! Some of us still like that stuff.

I actually still like King Crimson, though it's hard to listen to some of their earlier work without cringing.

Your homeland has a pretty quick and efficient search and rescue operation, I must say.

Perhaps, although all that practice might be due to our uncanny ability to manufacture disasters. A 5.2 manigtude earthquake has no businees killing so many people, or destroyng a hospital that was only 15 years…

The nature of nature is spooky at its most fundamental level.

Without at all meaning to be glib, the word earthquake has preoccupied me a bit in the last few days.

The news from Italy has been pretty horrifying, and I gather it could have all been much worse. Your…

I too went through a prog rock phase, though it shames me to admit that now. For extravagantly pompous and pretentious lyrics, you can't go wrong with King Crimson's early work:

Hey! Some of us still like that stuff.

Who remembers Alan Parsons Project and they mysoginisty hit Eve? What a crock of shit that was.

I too went through a prog rock phase, though it shames me to admit that now. For extravagantly pompous and pretentious lyrics, you can't go wrong with King Crimson's early work:

The wall…

Eve as I recall was all about how women really are worthy of maximum contempt.

It's a concept album. The concept is hating women.

Until I started looking up the lyrics, two minutes ago, I had thought the Alan Parsons Project was just crap. Now I realise it was quite nasty…

Eve as I recall was all about how women really are worthy of maximum contempt.

You Lie Down with Dogs and the ever so subtle I'd Rather Be a Man . Eve struck me as the kind of album a fifteen year old boy would write after breaking up with…

In Europe and America, there's a growing feeling of hysteria
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets
Mr. Khrushchev said we will bury you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
It'd be…

(Sting would be another. Are there…

I was on the verge of a gentle admonishment about it

My bookshelf is bigger than your bookshelf...? :)

I realise that the reasons people fall in behind Brian Tamaki are not exactly the same as those I am awed by the universe, but it still puzzles me that people would choose the former over the latter.

Some prefer the snake oil to the snake?

The The, Jackson Browne, Christian rock? Come on, give the poster some credit. These are not the sort of people you see at Parachute.

No, they're not Christian rock. It's music that just happens to be made by people who may, or may not, be Christians. And that belief may,…

We are just showing off. We do that.

I was on the verge of a gentle admonishment about it ...

The nature of nature is spooky at its most fundamental level.

Without at all meaning to be glib, the word earthquake has preoccupied me a bit in the last few days.

There are really good reasons to explore these circumstances, and they have nothing to do with spookiness. There is mystery associated with bush & sea – because we dont know enough yet-

And the closer we look, the less we know we know. The nature of nature is spooky at its…

Yes, we look for patterns and causes. Some of these have given us material advantages, such as recognising the pattern of the seasons and so knowing when to plant crops. Others, such as believing that the seasons are caused by the gods, might seem ridiculous.

Yes, often those stories were…

There is some evidence that our kind of primate has a propensity to ascribe meaning to random events.

I split this up into three: our tendency to look for causes, our tendency to look for patterns, and our tendency to interpret the world and ascribe it meaning.

I think it's…

A bit sad that no-one has taken my carefully-offered fly about the underlying physiological/psycological/indeed,*genetic* reasons as to *why* humans believe in irrational things.

I read that article but found it a bit tendentious, although evolution must have lots of interesting implications for philosophy and religion, you know, with the overman…

(Now, where was that recipe about 3-yrold palms???*)

(*I hate to say it, there is one...)

A bit sad that no-one has taken my carefully-offered fly about the underlying physiological/psycological/indeed,*genetic* reasons as to *why* humans believe in irrational things.

Also a bit sad that some posters seem to think there is mystery associated with the bush (or the…

No, you're too clever. The secret knowledge is that you only have to paste in the URL.

Thanks Russell. I'll try again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsfVw9xxoNY

Robert:

figures that Gray's failing…

The secret knowledge is that you only have to paste in the URL.

It's secret Knowledge, Bro.

I'll just use boring old links next time. I'm clearly incompetent.

No, you're too clever. The secret knowledge is that you only have to paste in the URL.

And here is your YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aIhh9nFYv4&feature=player_embedded

http://newhumanist.org.uk/1423

His point seems to be that secular humanism, through rationalism/science and democracy, can engender ad hoc progressive political outcomes whereas utopian political ideologies tend to be exclusive totalitarian monoliths and therefore counter enlightenment. He figures that Gray's failing…

Not till Sunday, young man, or Jebus will beat you.

And I thought owning a copy of "The God Delusion" would be the thing that set him off.

The ways of our Lord are indeed a mystery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pmr0_Z7s3M

Maybe I'll just go off and gorge on easter eggs.

Not till Sunday, young man, or Jebus will beat you.

Maybe I'll just go off and gorge on easter eggs.

And don't get me started on that Wiccan easy listening. Why all that bad art? And what's so wrong with the letter I that it has…

Evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCcHM26qS90

Christian Rock

That's what gets me. So much religious music is fabulous. Then suddenly in the 80s: Amy Grant and Stryper. What gives?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE35mmZWUxM

Gregory Benford once said, in response to Clarke, that technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced, which is Erik Davis' point, I take it. I've had some good discussions on the topic with a transhumanist friend.

And I get booze into myself far too often…

Could go on about the concept of Genius lociand (the neoplatonist) Plutarch's essay on Socrates Daemon. I'm sure there's a paper to be written on the projection of or attribution of consciousness to the external world and the development in later centuries of anthropocentric humanism.

We should try to get…

Personifying forces of nature and culture becomes animism by default.

Could go on about the concept of Genius loci and (the neoplatonist) Plutarch's essay on Socrates Daemon. I'm sure there's a paper to be written on the projection of or attribution of consciousness to the external world and the development…

I think your introduction of Renaissance Humanists into the discussion was an attempt to avoid answering my question about Animists. But it turns out that you think the Humanists were Animists. Whatever next?

As a matter of fact, I do think that they were animists, according to my definition above.…

...and didn't you say that you were going to ignore me in future?

No, I only committed to ignoring you for the remainder of that thread, the one in which you accused me of oppressing you. I find your ability to concoct accusations against me, rather than addressing the point,…

I was going to comment that I'd never had any religious education in school, but I realised I did.

To the best of my recollection, my class spent the entire Std 3 year worth of RE lessons learning to sing Lord of the Dance. At least once the instructor (a…

I suspect that most of the people who are becoming 'non-religious' are actually just getting high on crystals and chakra. That doesn't seem to be much of an improvement to me.

I suppose it's an improvement to the extent that chakras don't go round telling you to kill infidels and…

Really, you should read more on the study of myth and religion. It is quite illuminating and entertaining.

You know, I brought that up because I think that pleasure is involved in classical studies. I was actually trying to be encouraging. It is a…

There is a substantial element of play and irony involved in the interpretation of transcendental symbolism, especially as practised in Neoplatonist influences on…

It makes sense in the context of foraging on the serengeti plains for my monkey forebears to see an odd pattern of light and shadow in the grass and instinctively assume TIGER! In that context, scepticism might get you killed....

Wheras nowdays I just see a boot and go "cat"...

I was rather surprised when someone answered my question "should we be teaching students that light is a particle or a wave?" with a "yes", instead of a "no; we should teach them it's both."

That just shows that you don't understand the meaning of "or".

We seem to talking past each other. :)

Maybe not :)

somewhat bleak implications of the atheist-existentialist thing

Well, there's always Kierkegaard..., er, but he's rather bleak, and a Dane, like Hamlet. Maybe not...

(Mind you, a Dane I know thinks that that play is really indelibly English.)

We can…

As a corollary of that, I cannot say that the Judeo-Christian God as described in the Bible is tenable according to my understanding of the universe as described by the empirical scientific method.

On the other hand, day-to-day, the systems and metaphors of theology provide me with a means of…

I personally don't find the probabalistic approach helpful, but that is just me.

Well, that's the nature of faith, or trust – under the framework of Christian theology and morality, calculation subverts faith and trust by inserting raw quantified self-interest. To harp on about Pascal, he'd actually go to Hell…

And who was it who introduced 'primitives' and their brains to the argument? Not me

Sarcastic use of the term 'noble savage' does so. You are being disingenuous.

given your liberal use of the word 'religion.

That is my point. I could add the prefix 'crypto' if you wish -…

You might mean Richard Dawkins, at a guess

I hesitate to say that. I am really talking about a more widespread tone, a way of talking (or making implications) about other people's views. Obviously, tone, polite or otherwise, says nothing about the truth of the strong atheist's position.

I read…

a paradox that may lead to further discussion... philosophically, one cannot prove a negative, therefore, as an honest atheist, I cannot say therefore that there is no God, merely that I have no need for the hypothesis that God exists. As a corollary of that, I cannot say that…

That's a straw man argument.

No it isn't.

And who was it who introduced 'primitives' and their brains to the argument? Not me. And do these books on anthropology say that animists did not hold their beliefs sincerely? I think not.

I am not surprised you find my definition of sincerity…

So when an agnostic, who…

I meant to say that some people have recently commented on the fact that certain ways of talking about strong atheism have come across as... uh, inflexible, to others.

You might mean Richard Dawkins, at a guess? His rather sweeping comments on superorganisms and group selection have annoyed some nominally…

After enduring decades of discrimination and abuse, Atheists fight back with words, only to be accused of bad manners.

I didn't mean to suggest that Atheists generally have bad manners, or that Atheists are rude to discuss their views. I meant to say that some people have recently commented on…

Blah, blah, blah. You, of course, know what these people, noble savages to a man, believed. It's a basic psychological fact, after all.

That's a straw man argument... and information of these 'noble savages' (hyperbole on your part – I said no such thing, merely that 'primitives' have brains no…

...which really begs the question of whether sincerity is a virtue in itself by your own argument. If it is nonfunctional, then it is not a virtue.

No, it doesn't, because that is not what 'begging the question' means.

Sincerity is a moral value; the value of what is sincerely believed…

Beyond your recognition. I'm not responsible for your limits.

Beyond the limits of the language. Feel free to make up alternative meanings for words, but keep them to yourself, for the sake of clarity.

Actually, not. Animist religions had/have nothing to do with 'controlling' nature by 'appeasing' it, but serve to…

After enduring decades of discrimination and abuse, Atheists fight back with words, only to be accused of bad manners.

I find myself ironically amused, as an atheist, to be interested in anti-atheist arguments. An accusation of bad manners is surely better than being burned at the stake. To quote Laplace…

storm god sincerely believed that they would make the storm stop by doing so

...which really begs the question of whether sincerity is a virtue in itself by your own argument. If it is nonfunctional, then it is not a virtue.

You stretch it beyond recognition.

Beyond your recognition. I'm not responsible for your limits.

The people who sacrificed to the storm god sincerely believed that they would make the storm stop by doing so.

Actually, not. Animist religions had/have nothing to do with 'controlling' nature by 'appeasing' it, but serve…

Religion as a pious fiction is hardly a new idea, yet still it retains its cynicism as of new.

The people who sacrificed to the storm god sincerely believed that they would make the storm stop by doing so. Their sacrifice was a solution to…

As a "weak" agnostic with…

To call that a religion is stretching the term somewhat

Yes, my point exactly. The point should be stretched.

would be insincere to use as a tool something in which one does not believe.

So? Is sincerity a virtue? The measure of its value is whether it works on the…

Sorry if I missed anyone. I'm in a generous mood.

Or, occasionally, indulge it. I regard my irrational thoughts as poetic. They have a place.

Yeah, they're ways of describing, within the bounds of human cognition, a relationship with a cosmos that is not really in any…

The artists don't have to be out of their minds.

I was being a little flippant/facecious/whatever. I do appreciate the good stuff, wherever it comes from. Truly.

Love William Blakes stuff, for example.

heartily agree.

Please don't get me started on Part or Tarkovsky, otherwise I'll never stop in my raptures...

Or Lovecraft.

Strogly recommend S. T. Joshi's biography of the man, if you can get it on abebooks.com

(Hic).

Also, collaterally, too drunk to be arsed finding links mode...

There was announced recently a project to research religion from a scientific basis... why the hell do we shaved monkeys do that sort of thing and so on... the immediate objection…

The belief in any form of supernatural power is what makes it not religious. You're describing an extreme ideology. Many religions are sometimes expressed as extreme ideologies but they're jsut a subset.

I'm not sure it's clear where to draw the line between extreme ideology and religion. They usually have…

Or, occasionally, indulge it. I regard my irrational thoughts as poetic. They have a place.

Yes, true. There's a lot of great art I enjoy that wouldn't have been created if the artist(s) hadn't been freaking out of their tiny minds. And one needs a bit of sympathetic resonance to…

Kind of? What part of fanatic Maoism during the 50s and 60s wasn't religious in nature? i.e. the cult of personality, the little red book, the irrational hatred of class enemies, etc etc.

The belief in any form of supernatural power is what makes it not religious. You're describing an…

Personally, I find it useful to know that, and to use it as a good dose of weedkiller in the fertile garden of belief. I can train myself out of it like sportspeople re-train the flinch reflex.

Or, occasionally, indulge it. I regard my irrational thoughts as poetic. They have…

The latest thinking from white-coated boffins is that we are hard-wired for belief and pattern-recognition.

It makes sense in the context of foraging on the serengeti plains for my monkey forebears to see an odd pattern of…

I collected some data on religion for a study I ran recently (as yet unpublished).

I would love to hear more about this study.

In fact ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrGWooNDPiE

EXCELLENT!!