I was just pointing out that South Africa didn't have what most people would consider to be democracy…

I was just pointing out that South Africa didn't have what most people would consider to be democracy until the 1990s.

Retrospectively stating that South Africa wasn't a democracy for the 50 odd years of people were voting in Apartheid governments is selective and revisionist. It was an inhumane democracy.…

That's convenient, maybe the same will be said about the tainted Bush terms in in 50 years.

I forgot that I was wasting time by engaging in you with reasonable facts and logic. Nevermind.

Like I said Mark, I'm over it and in my opinon we should politely agree to disagree.

Strange that you should find politeness an acceptable course this late in the piece. peace Rich.

I was just pointing out that South Africa didn't have what most people would consider to be democracy until the 1990s.

That's convenient, maybe the same will be said about the tainted Bush terms in in 50 years.

and that's better that the consensus system of the Kalahri bushmen?

bullshit.

I was just pointing out that South Africa didn't have what most people would consider to be democracy until the 1990s.

That whole "you black folk can't vote" and all that.

But I'm quite happy for you to keep posting. Please expose as many people as possible to what you really think.

What's with the abuse Giovanni?

It was a joke, you know, the ad hominem thing.

I think you guys are having a very interesting discussion, do carry on.

* hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.

attributed to Churchill as a remark, in an entry for September 1942 in Leo Amery : Diaries (1988), edited John Barnes and…

In theory it could go on forever. "I didn't mean Tongan law firms. I meant Samoan law firms." Ad libitum.

"Act MP working on offending everyone in universe before next election".

Act MP has to apologise for his apology.

So there's nothing left to blame but those two (approx.) years on a Louisiana oil rig. Or, according to Garrett's Wikipedia entry, time spent in the Socialist Unity Party. Or even as a Labour Party activist.

Expect Garrett to pull the Manchurian…

Act MP has to apologise for his apology. I'm very entertained by his dickishness.

In theory it could go on forever. "I didn't mean Tongan law firms. I meant Samoan law firms." Ad libitum.

Your standard saturday lotto is there to represent a 'reasonable' spread of the income generated from the tickets (minus operating costs, grants, etc) across a number of prizes, but the Big Wednesday is,…

in South Africa we saw democracy at it's worst.

I really do despair.

You, in all apparent seriousness, appear to have put forward the proposition that it is acceptable to give up fundamental democratic freedoms, in order to stimulate…

Serfs up! – the LOTTO version makes no sense to me, I watched the queues at the supermarket the other day – money is…

We could fund, for example, the independent journalism venture we have talked about in the past.

Off topic but this thread seems all over the place as it is, have you seen this?

Swinburne University's Institute for Social Research has established a Not for Profit foundation to help develop new…

I also suggest you deselect the ad terrānum feature of your word processor.

It would help if Microsoft didn't keep putting it in a different place with every new release of Word. That drives me nuts, you smelly bastard.

QUOTE: "It is enough that the people know
there was an election. The people
who cast the votes decide nothing.
The people who count the votes
decide everything."
~ Joseph Stalin

Shades of Zimbabwe…

But once you've got all that time, then what?

Ask Gareth Morgan. Personally, I don't like motorbikes, but there are endless varations on a theme.

I laughed that the mother in this instance is buying a new ambulance for the town, since she hashad to use the service in the…

So would $500,000.

Anecdotally, I've…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_trial

Mark, if you're referring to me, I've never used that expression. For the record, it strikes me as a bit dickish.

Sincerely sorry Joe, It was a misquote (for the second time) of a damn find shaddup.

for Rich;

If a man take no thought about what is distant, he…

Mainly its about how and when compromise is achieved. While consensus democracy (CD) and representative democracy (RD) are both able to accommodate compromise, CD seeks it in the first instance, whereas RD seeks it as a last resort.

Um, I might be wrong, but aren't you confusing the way you…

Seriously? That's your argument? A Communist Dictatorship is better than any form of Democracy? A new stadium outweighs my freedom to say whatever the fuck I like about the government, as loudly as I care to, to whoever I choose? Srsly?

I'll keep it simple Rich. I never mentioned any…

Sure, this creature of Westminster democracy was actually talking about something else...

Weak comeback, Mikaere.

Yes. Yes, he was.

That particular quote is from a 1947 speech he made. Two years after the end of WW2, and one year after his 'iron curtain' speech.

The full quote is:

Many forms…

Thanks, like Joe said, I'm not politically buffed.

Mark, if you're referring to me, I've never used that expression. For the record, it strikes me as a bit dickish.

And as long as I'm here, that proverb about men needing to fear fame as pigs should fear becoming fat was…

Mark, you said:

Democracy is not the worst form of government compared to Nazism and there are better

Then I called you on it, by saying:

Since you clearly think there are better forms of Government than that which we could for the sake…

I'm concerned that this is how 'justice' is decided.

Ten people listened to the evidence and came up with coherent views, two people refused to – I thought the solution was quite fair. We gave them time and space to come up with constructive arguments and they couldn't. The alternative…

After a frustrating few hours in that tiny airless room the rest of us decided to stand around the table with our backs to them and our faces an inch from the wall while the defendent's admirers sorted themselves out.

I'm concerned that this is how 'justice' is decided.

you…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_trials

http://www.helplinelaw.com/law/netherlands/courts/courts.php

I would characterise it more as direct democracy since the primary mechanism is voting rather than actual consensus-building.

Thanks, like Joe said, I'm not politically buffed.

Here's a good example of CD

I would characterise it more as direct democracy since the primary mechanism is voting rather than actual consensus-building. Still, it illustrates your point that there are viable alternatives to Churchill's (implicit) representative democracy.

Isn’t that the detail of the system, rather than its fundamental principle, that’s the issue then?

True just a detail Legbreak, but my only objective is to cast reasonable doubt that assertion that democracy is better than all other systems, not to prove that it isn't, all just details.

A 5 year plan wouldn’t really work in a country with a 3 year electoral cycle.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, that a three year cycle barely covers the hangover recovery for the post victory celebrations.

The illusion of empowerment for individuals is insignificant in a nation…

I think that's possibly one reason why Mark thinks our system doesn't work so well.

Isn’t that the detail of the system, rather than its fundamental principle, that’s the issue then?

Putting aside the fact that the term is permanently tainted.

A 5 year plan wouldn’t really work in a country with a 3 year electoral cycle.

I think that's possibly one reason why Mark thinks our system doesn't work so well.

A 5 year plan wouldn’t really work in a country with a 3 year electoral cycle.

I'm not against planning. But the moment I hear "five-year plan" I immediately thing Stalinist Russia. Change the name and you're on to a winner. Say "half-decade plan" or "quarter-score" or something else.

Ha nice. yeah Scotty sorry. When I hear 5 year plan I think of stadium planning, relaxing…

If you have the votes in RD, there is no need to…

yet you are convinced a five year plan is a bad thing because it's called a five year plan and at some point in history some people had some bad five year plans, so the whole notion could only be suggested with tongue in cheek.

To be fair those bad…

I'm concerned that this is how 'justice' is decided.

I'm concerned that this is how anything is decided.

]]> Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:48:39 +1200 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-footnotes/?p=118319#post118319 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-footnotes/?p=118319#post118319 There's always some statistician to smugly tell you that buying a ticket in the meat raffle at your local is a much more economically rational decision than buying a Lotto ticket.
It's bollocks of course.
They calculate Expected Value based on probabilities and returns, but define the returns solely in…

]]> Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:47:46 +1200 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-footnotes/?p=118318#post118318 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-footnotes/?p=118318#post118318

After a frustrating few hours in that tiny airless room the rest of us decided to stand around the table with our backs to them and our faces an inch from the wall while the defendent's admirers sorted themselves out.

I'm concerned that this is how 'justice' is decided.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/2507879/China-retreats-from-web-filtering-plan

I hear the Court staff were more shocked than anyone and they're usually spot on.

Yes. I think some of the stuff we got from the journalists came from the court staff, particularly the impression that minds were made up before the arguments were concluded.

But like you said, I'm…

As I mentioned Since you clearly think there are better forms of Government than that which we could for the sake of argument call 'Western Democratic', how about you provide some examples of governmental forms you think are better, or 'don't bother'.

You have conveniently placed all the many variations…

Mikaere, please point me to that part of Churchill's quote where he said 'representative democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those others which have been tried from time to time'.

Sure, this creature of Westminster democracy was actually talking about something else...

On one trial, a jury member could not be persuaded from making things up (what if...) rather than focussing on the evidence.

In another, a large retired british prison officer refused to believe the police would arrest anyone who wasn't guilty.

I was on two juries in one week (years…

Mikaere, please point me to that part of Churchill's quote where he said 'representative democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those others which have been tried from time to time'.

Wouldn't work though. It's not the thousands of mini-prizes that everyone buys the tickets for. It's the chance to win the big one.

Who's this "everyone"? I just said I myself would be more motivated by more smaller prizes (where "small" is still in the tens of thousands). In fact,…

5 year plans is not a good phrase to support an argument that democracy doesn't allow central planning. 5 year plans were not good planning.

Ah yeah i see, the wording, sorry. Arguably soome were come weren't. I wasn't making an argument that democracy doesn't allow five year planning ie…

In the Crimes Act, one will find the following definition:

penis includes a surgically constructed or reconstructed organ analogous to a naturally occurring penis (whether the person concerned is male, female or of indeterminate sex)

Who says these…

jersey's

D'oh. I swear there's some auto-uncorrecting going on.

I am…

We could fund, for example, the independent journalism venture we have talked about in the past.

A natural habitat refuge for rescued sow crate pigs!

'sokay, I didn't win.

Makes no sense. My argument? that Churchill's quote is drawn from lack of experience or that jurors are under qualified?

5 year plans is not a good phrase to support an argument that democracy doesn't allow central planning. 5 year plans were not good planning.

As others have said, if there were a bigger chance of winning a smaller prize, instead of astronomical odds against winning an astroniomical prize, I might be more tempted.

Wouldn't work though. It's not the thousands of mini-prizes that everyone buys the tickets for. It's the chance to win the…

please stay in China, mark. It clearly suits you. And it suits me very well for you to be there and not here.

Please deselect the ad hominum feature on your word processor Rich, either discuss the topic, provide some examples, give us context, or simply don't bother. The…

He wore loud jersey's in built up areas, he was obviously dodgy.

I thought it came out that the jersey actually belonged to Victim Support, not Bain?

The illusion of empowerment for individuals is insignificant in a nation where our government can't even make a truly attainable five year plan.

The phrase "five year plan" isn't really something that supports your argument, unless you think we should transform our entire economy to produce only coal and tractors.

As for Bain, I decided he was guilty on the day of his arrest.

That's kind of scary, Robert. Based on what?

He wore loud jersey's in built up areas, he was obviously dodgy.

throw!!!!!!!!! ze fuk. I'm stepping away from the machine.

Sorry, I'm sober.

clear evidence that in New Zealanders are in large numbers

O ffs.

"that New Zealanders in large are not well enough...."

BREAKING NEWSNew details: Four family members share $36m win... details soon

So... nobody's linked to Robyn's post yet? Do I have to do everything around here?

For anyone who thinks we should tinker or do away with the jury system, have a think about Churchill's famous quote:

""Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

I love how this quote from someone who…

This just from the Herald website:
BREAKING NEWSNew details: Four family members…

Women's Christian Temperance Union-ish about the whole thing.

You're right. My great grandmother was a member. It's in the genes. Who cares if some woman next to me is buying lotto tickets instead of feeding her fetid little under-dressed children.

I'm just over the gasps of people like Kathryn Ryan,…

Next time you buy lotto ticket in the dairy, look around to make sure you’re not making someone cry.

Basically, people do irrational things sometimes. They do those things because they're fun, or they're entertaining, or because…

No walk, no airplane parts. It's not going to happen.

There's just one small flaw in that statement... It just DID happen.

Somebody DID win +$36,000,000.00

It DID happen, it DOES happen, somebody does win.

Every single person that ever won had a ticket. Every single person that didnt have…

More humbug. This idea has graduated on this blog to the status of accepted fact from humble beginnings of 'what a reporter wrote.'

Oh, this is getting silly now. Everything in the bloody newspaper is is simply "what a reporter wrote" if you're going to take that approach.

Frankly, I…

Isn't it idiotic to do X with the hope of achieving Y when there is no chance of ever achieving Y. What is idiocy other than doing really irrational things?

A local sports team here is selling 40 $50 raffle tickets, with a $1000 prize at the end.

40 *…

talking about sleeping

More humbug. This idea has graduated on this blog to the status of accepted fact from humble beginnings of 'what a reporter wrote.' Weeks after the event. Of course the lawyers who checked the article would know that they would be free from any lawsuit by members…

Speaking as an earnest pyschologist – Lotto is waaaay more interesting and complicated than the stats.

How the hell do you explain getting addicted to nearly winning ?

But the particular earnest psychologists I was referring to were the ones specialising in the upsurge of interest over the last 2…

Idiocy is a little harsh, Brickley; more like statistically illiterate.

Isn't it idiotic to do X with the hope of achieving Y when there is no chance of ever achieving Y. What is idiocy other than doing really irrational things?

The universe's most miniscule chance at it is still a…

it is a huge business and in some places a corrupt one at that.

Humbug. The unspoken inference that lotto in New Zealand is corrupt bears no resemblance to the facts. There has been, IIRC, one instance of a dishonest retailer in NZ, which was dealt with fairly thoroughly at…

Um, the 'you silly rubes don't understand maths' thing we're going for here is kind of patronising...

The thing that amuses me though is all the earnest psychologists who come out of the woodwork to pontificate on what all the hype tells us about the national psche.

Speaking as an…

discussing what he was going to do with the $36m.

And maybe that fun daydream is worth 20 bucks of entertainment to someone? That's about the cost of a movie nowadays. Just a thought.

A lot of people don't, and buy the ticket anyway, for the exact same reason you've…

(Regarding my lack of PE prowess: if feminism was a sport, I would *waste* you, Kyle. ;) )

If men can be feminists, then I suspect I'd be an average one at best, so we can take that as a given either way.

You gotta be in to lose, I…

The chance of winning is very small, but not quite as small as if I dont buy one.

1 out of a squillion chance is still INFINITELY bigger than zero. :)
Tell me that is statistically wrong?…

The thing that amuses me though is all the earnest psychologists who come out of the woodwork to pontificate on what all the hype tells us about the national psche.

As if we’re unique or something.

I, for example, am not statistically illiterate or an idiot – I hope – yet I bought my once-yearly Lotto ticket yesterday. I mean, that's a shitload of money! The universe's most miniscule…

At least phonetically correct. :)

I apologise in advance for this complete swerve of topic, but does anyone else share my total lack of interest in Big Wednesday?
Yesterday it seemed to be the only topic of conversation everywhere I went, and today the front page of the DomPost is completely given over to it.…

We make a virtue out of what is effectively a tax on idiocy.

Idiocy is a little harsh, Brickley; more like statistically illiterate.

Yes, but what's the percentage of 'normal people' on PAS?

I believe it's a party of one: just James Bremner, right?

(Regarding my lack of PE prowess: if feminism was a sport, I would *waste* you, Kyle. ;) )

but does anyone else share my total lack of interest in Big Wednesday?

YES! We make a virtue out of what is effectively a tax on idiocy. We need Keith on this but I think the chances of winning are so small it isn't worth buying a ticket. Like constantly…

Normal people wouldn't think of such perverted shit...

Yes, but what's the percentage of 'normal people' on PAS?

I apologise in advance for this complete swerve of topic, but does anyone else share my total lack of interest in Big Wednesday?

I completely fail to understand how it works. They…

No chance. I was 10 when Muldoon got the arse.

Was I the only one who read this and thought "been drinking too much soy"?

We shouldn't chuck out the entire jury system on the basis of one…

That is all I am saying, and it is mostly in response to those who make sweeping statements about 'doing away' with the current jury system in certain circumstances.

Parliament has beaten you to it, Rich:

361EJudge may order trial without jury in cases involving intimidation of juror or jurors…

However, I tend to think of the democratic processes and institutions we sometimes take for granted as being houses of cards, painstakingly built up over hundreds of years. Removing or repositioning…

I'm poorly placed to argue any further, not having been there. My point is that I cannot recall experienced journalists — who were there for the whole three months — describing a jury in these terms. Ever.

That is interesting because in my experience veteran court reporters know more about…

But that doesn't mean it can't be discussed or made better.

Discussion and improvement is a vital part of the institution. For a time, jurors were in the unfortunate situation of being in danger of being imprisoned until they returned the result the judge wanted.

For anyone who thinks we should tinker or do away with the jury system, have a think about Churchill's famous quote:

""Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

I tend to agree. But that doesn't mean…

A spectre is haunting Thorndon...

Even before he died (in '84) the house possessed a malevolent force

Muldoon died in 1992, it was his political death in 1984, but as if a spectre he haunted Thorndon and the House as a malevolent force for some years after.

Of course not. But my point is that you can excuse a person for letting their attention lapse momentarily. It was a three month trial. Who has the concentration and stamina to be always attentive?

Nobody mentioned slight lapses in concentration as far as I know – they were talking…

""Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Then have a think about the Blackstone ratio…

I clearly remember going to a primary school friend's birthday party, to which she had invited "Mr Muldoon". I wonder if it was the same girl. (The horrible alternative is that there were at least two such people!)
He wrote her quite a sweet letter apologising for not being able…

I wonder if it was the same girl.

If it was I'm pretty sure she'd have mentioned the letter, possibly by pointing to it and saying "This here framed letter is the one I got when..."

I wouldn't expect them to go around informing strangers that it'd all be over…

Come off it Russell, I have sat on a jury. You think they only discuss the case amongst themselves when they formally retire to consider the verdict?

I wouldn't expect them to go around informing strangers that it'd all be over real quick, no.

I'm poorly placed to argue any…

As a child a dear friend of mine had a massive crush on the man. Apparently she used to come over all funny when he was on the telly.

I clearly remember going to a primary school friend's birthday party, to which she had invited "Mr Muldoon". I wonder if…

While I've never been 'gifted' with a Piggy dream, they weren't uncommon.

When living in Wellington in the early'80s, I had a flat in Hawkestone Street, a great old house that Muldoon and cronies had lived in while in opposition (in his Young Turk days…

I don't think what I'm proposing – that maybe there was actual reasonable doubt – is that controversial. However, I'll desist from this line of argument, because it's getting me nowhere and I don't want to be a bore.

Graeme made the same point, and I completely accept that if…

Or not.

If all 12 were inattentive and incompetent then Bain really did win the lottery.

In any case we're arguing the unknowable, because none of us were there to witness any of it.

I don't think what I'm proposing – that maybe there was actual reasonable doubt – is…

No ScottY – they were hearing legal argfument-

I don't think their determination there had been a miscarriage of justice can be so easily ignored.

If they had thought Bain was clearly guilty, despite the flaws in the Crown case, they'd have followed the Court of Appeal and dismissed Bain's…

Who has the concentration and stamina to be always attentive?

אִיּוֹב

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_(Bible)

Oh come on! The guy was asleep!

Maybe. But the other 11?

But my point is that you can excuse a person for letting their attention lapse momentarily. It was a three month trial. Who has the concentration and stamina to be always attentive?

Oh come on! The guy was asleep!

As a child a dear friend of mine had a massive crush on the man. Apparently she used to come over all funny when he was…

Are you serious?

Of course not. But my point is that you can excuse a person for letting their attention lapse momentarily. It was a three month trial. Who has the concentration and stamina to be always attentive?

False memory Mrs Skin – until you give us the reference.

Maybe you dreamed it. While I've never been 'gifted' with a Piggy dream, they weren't uncommon. A now elderly relative dreamed that she was taking a short cut on foot through a lane behind the then unfinished Beehive. It…

Firstly, it was a three-month trial. If I'd had to sit in the same chair for three months I'd have had a sleep too. In fact I'd have been in a coma by the end of it. No amount of smelling salts would revive me.

Are you serious?

At least one juror, it seems, was literally asleep during proceedings. Like I says, court reporters don't say these things lightly — I can't really recall it before.

I agree it's possible a couple of jurors were less than diligent.

But two things:

Firstly, it was a three-month trial. If…

False memory Mrs Skin – until you give us the reference.

No chance. I was 10 when Muldoon got the arse. I wouldn't have a clue what it might relate to – if it even happened.

I'm a bit over the "innocent people have nothing to fear" line.

I'm soooo over that line.

...next time Karam maintains Bain is innocent, he should be asked why this innocent man, who had nothing to hide, decided not to give evidence.

I'm a bit over the "innocent people have nothing to fear" line. (It might be…

Further examples: one juror passed a note to his wife to say not to let go of their tickets for Stomp because it'd all be done and dusted by the Friday evening. Another said something similar to a worker at the coffee bar across the road.

At this point I'd…

I really agree with people who have suggested an overhaul of our current jury system would be A Good Idea-

Ur, ScottY – the other 2 juries?

*It is not just this last trial.*

And the Privy Council. Were they asleep?

*It is not just this last trial.*

I'm uncomfortable with the view I've often heard expressed (and which van Beynan's article does nothing to dispel) that they must have all been thick, or asleep at the wheel, or blind to the obvious. But all 12 of them?

At least one juror, it seems, was literally asleep during…

I'm uncomfortable with the view I've often heard expressed (and which van Beynan's article does nothing to dispel) that they must have all been thick, or asleep at…

I've been following the juggling-for-most-authoritative-position between him and David Colquhoun over Jack Lovelock. These things are not black and white. Only the person/people with the lived experience knows for sure.

The fact it had to be one of them makes that an uncomfortable point of resolution.

The jury only had the option of an all or nothing verdict. The possibility that it could have been a combination was not considered.

Martin van Beynen asks us, who did it, David or Robin? He doesn't seem to entertain the idea that an answer to that question is unattainable.

The fact it had to be one of them makes that an uncomfortable point of resolution.

I'm with you Jan Farr – my comment was directed to Christaan the Londoner

:)

that's wonderful!
is there an online version anywhere you can link me to?

any plans afoot to re-market the stuff as boymilk?

and that was part of Martin's article-

'Reasonable doubt' isnt as definite as the Scots legal system's 'Not Proven.'

I dearly wish we had that verdict here in ANZ – and the Continental…

One gets the feeling that Martin van Beynen would rather dispense with principle of reasonable doubt.

I got the feeling that he didn't feel the doubt was reasonable.

obviously people like Sacha to make quite, quite sure that it's entire contents are 'bout a bunch of "fundies confirming their warped world-view"

how sweetly smug can we possibly get now?

It published an article about how soy milk makes you gay. That, in itself, is enough to make me…

obviously people like Sacha to make quite, quite sure that it's entire contents are 'bout a bunch of "fundies confirming their warped world-view"

how sweetly smug can we possibly get now?

It's not just the skillset, it's the blistering natural speed. She'll always beat her man on the outside.

Heh. Several years of attending physical education class with Danielle when we were all younger, makes this doubly entertaining :)

David Dougherty might have something to say about the wheels of justice and how easy it is for a jury to convict an innocent man.

David Dougherty's is an amazing story. But he was freed (and eventually compensated) because his lawyer (and Donna Chisholm) completely knocked out the prosecution evidence…

I thought that in NZ we had a justice system that says a person is innocent until proven guilty. I thought that when the Privy Council quashed David Bain's first conviction and ordered a re-trial that meant we were back at square one, new…

What was significant is how important the Standard and Poors credit rating is to Key. It seems to be the most important thing to him.

It is important. If we do get a downgrade we will have to provide about $200,000,000 more each year to such diverse interests as Arab…

Given the response to the comment following yours, and the bypassing of your questions, Russell, I'd guess the answer from Craig is no :).

Shove off, Eddie. I don't have the psychic ability to anticipate questions before they're posted, and I'll agree to disagree with Russell that Key, while offensive,…

He's possibly missed on the formation of the PAS Women's XV too. Danielle caught the play nicely, as usual.

It's not just the skillset, it's the blistering natural speed. She'll always beat her man on the outside.

He's possibly missed on the formation of the PAS Women's XV too. Danielle caught the play nicely, as usual.

If it is (I have been out of the loop, not reading HardNews for several years),

You'll have missed the memo about not using words like "tart" and "bitch" to insult people in the news because they happen to be female.

C'mon. Really.

Could we perhaps insult Rankin without resorting to the gendered insults?

Thank you Danielle...

It was really vile. Could you not just acknowledge that?

Given the response to the comment following yours, and the bypassing of your questions, Russell, I'd guess the answer from Craig is no :).

I know Tolley is an ignoramous with a penchant for the sauce, but she can't be serious... Can she??

I wonder who she gets her feedback from. Possibly not from South Auckland:

"But when it came to hobby courses, Ms Tolley said it was possible the services could still be…

what Key trotted out three times yesterday was much more egregious than the usual Parliamentary trash-talking.

Yes it was. Kind of like this now infamous exchange that ran along similar lines..

MELISSA LEE: I would like Opposition members to read the victim impact report, to see what kind of damage…

As for Bain, I decided he was guilty on the day of his arrest.

That's kind of scary, Robert. Based on what?

I'm writing from China: This is the same Rankin who wore the laughable 'boob tubes' in the early nineties as a managerial 'wonderkind' of "Work and Income"?

Perhaps you'd like to turn your attention slightly higher than her tits, Robert?