https://at.govt.nz/projects-roadworks/pt-chevalier-to-westmere/

....some of which is shared with pedestrians and some of which is separate.

The expect really hinges on how much damage you expect people to take in an accident- giving the prevailing wisdom that the short term risk is balanced by the long term health benefits it starts to devolve into arguments about…

Makes sense, we have very few car/pedestrian shared paths and even fewer uses of the phrase "we can't afford a dedicated facility" when talking about motorists.

But cyclists seem to be killed by motorists at…

Yeah I agree, but the reasoning is the inconvenience of carrying a helmet is enough to make folks not use the service at all. So not…

Yup, although I'm yet to see the model that actually attempts to quantify the individual right to…

My impression was that this point is set more preventatively in NZ than elsewhere because of the implied social contract with our ACC cover. In other words, the…

This is not really a question of facts, but one of values, and you can't really convince people on those if they've made up their minds. Quite the…

Also, what I've siad is true: mandatory helmets would save lives. I expect he agrees. So far he's been vigorously arguing that, anyway, and…

Speaking of unhinged, that is frankly improbable. Normally "everyone must wear helmets" is brought up it's as a strawman, but then here you are saying it with a straight face. I think you're…

I've reviewed the de Jong article (I've spent my whole bloody afternoon on this issue, grrrrr). I don't find de Jong persuasive. In particular his discussion of the exercise substitution possibility is brief and possibly problematic. His Equation 8 is said to deal…

When I visited Kyoto/Osaka last year, there were shared pedestrian/cycle/car ways down malls…

The pedestrian cyclist issues in a shared carriageway do seem to mirror the cyclist car issues when they share space. As I understand it, in Japan the less vulnerable party in an accident is normally held responsible, so in…

More cyclists == more reminders == more considerate driving.…

For pedestrians, I think hospital stats show it a pretty major thing at intersections or road crossing- pedestrian risk is very low on the footpath then skyrockets…

Also, if there were any appreciable decrease in cyclist-pedestrian injuries,…

They do, and it's a very cunning accounting indeed. The substitution can be accounted for by varying v, the health benefit of every kilometer of accident free cycling. I was interested in how they attained a reasonable figure for it, but…

How the hell would you know – you didn't read the paper

You are wrong. Utterly wrong. So wrong you should slap yourself in embarrassment.

You cannot just read an abstract of such a paper and expect to understand what is being said.

The authors build a comprehensive model including all the variables discussed here (and more)…

But when they are the only people covering the topic, what else can we…

We can argue about the mechanism (protecting heads vs discouraging cycling -…

That's hard, because the laws were a result of a very public campaign to emphasise the gory dangers of cycling. Untangling the two might be best done by removing the law and just carrying on regardless, but…

Well, OK, but have you got a better alternative?

The first is not really relevant to the wider population risk analysis. It concludes that helmets improve outcomes from an accident, once that accident occurs: but that has never been subject to question.

The wider questions of whether helmet laws end up increasing…

Which is fine except that their only assessment is from 2008.

I'm not sure why you are unwilling to accept recent risk analysis work as evidence. The maths is straightforward, unless you make…

Thanks for doing that. It does seem odd that no one else had hit the Cochrane button :-)

I often ride a [[http://www.moz.geek.nz/mozbike/mybikes/quad/index.html|four…

I thought that's what I said. What it does say, and what I actually said, was that the time ordering of mandating helmets followed by a…

Read de jong 2012

It's Australian so very similar to NZ and relatively straightforward analysis. If you want to go further you can dig through papers that it cites and papers that cite it but you'd probably need some academic access.

Me too. But "the effects will take a while to show up" is no reason not to do it. Just look at trade treaties and tax cuts for the wealthy, where an arguable 1%…

Actually I agree.

But, if you view the law as an experiment designed to reduce harm, then it didn't work. Quite spectacularly.

If…

They're right, but the causal link is apparently non-intuitive – cycling to school is now significantly more dangerous than…

As you say, leaping on any slightly relevant fact to buttress an argument. That fact is not, as far as I know, in dispute. I mean, it's [[http://cyclehelmets.org/1261.html|different in some…

A lot of skiers and snowboarders disagree with that. Recreational skiers (and even instructors) aren't at a particularly high risk of head injury. Wearing a helmet reduces your peripheral vision (which is more important…

Funny you should say that because I find the opposition to getting rid of the law is exactly like CC deniers. It really doesn't matter what data we show you. It really doesn't matter how many…

In my experience the anti-helmet brigade (not necessarily you) are like climate change…

As Linger said this is kind of moot since infrastructure changes as the number of cyclists increases. There really is no reasonable reason to have laws in place that deter people from cycling and every restriction makes it more dangerous…

Yes, but they're sports. If you visit cycle-friendly countries the great majority of cyclists don't dress up for the ride or even sweat, so the comparison only works for the "sport…

In countries without a helmet law as the number of cyclists increases the rate of accidents per hour of cycling decreases.
Does this account for the nature of the cycling infrastructure?…

There are multiple analyses that show this effect based on the data from NZ and Australia. With the helmet law…

Proving causation is seldom trivial. But the correlation is pretty well known, and the mechanism is at least believable – that when a society is at pains to make laws to make cycling harder and less appealing then probably social attitudes to…

So if we ring our bell to say we're there, we're arrogantly "blasting through", but if we don't ping we're likely to scare the sh!t…

Thanks, it's a good piece. I am still not sure how you prove that re the helmet law " it’s trivial to show that it raises the likelyhood of having a…

I do this too: if anyone makes way for me, I thank them as I go past, ideally making eye contact. I…

Dunno, but it's such a basic safety device I was prepared to pay the tiny sum to get one. Very seldom used, but it's bloody handy when needed. When approaching pedestrians from behind I ring it several times…

Sorry took a while to find the refs again, had lost that old folder in one of the various moves. The journal article I was think of is this one de jong 2012. A discussion of lots of the pros and cons can…

How hard is it…

'Dunno but his face rings a bell.'

Maybe it's as simple as being more visible, maybe…

I use my bell regularly.

We…

But shared paths shortchange both pedestrians and people on bikes, as so many comments above attest.…

Curious about the sampling and methodology of that study because reeeally not buying the every day / every week stat for…

I actually keep meaning to fit…

Sheesh, how many cyclists have a bell to give a little ping? When I’m out walking (on a shared track) and cyclists are approaching from…

Black BMWs give me the shits when I'm driving, but on the bike, white taxis are scarier – they tend to take their corners closer to the edge of the road…

Which is true and fair, although not all bike paths are shared.

The issue is that just like a car or truck, a bike has a limit on how quickly it can stop or swerve.

Pedestrians (myself included)…

There was me thinking it was a linear food chain with Gerry Brownlee the apex predator followed by the trucking lobby, 55 tonne…

So I am to take that you have been? That would be interesting.

...except that a bicycle is a vehicle but the drink driving laws only apply to MOTOR vehicles. So, despite the common myth, you can't be charged in NZ for being…

Ah – so you experienced the delights of the Elephant & Castle roundabout? I used to ride through…

Not only that, but I saw a study a while that concluded of London commutes up to 15km have the same average speed by bike or car. And that's pretty much my n=1…

Key takeaway: The average UK cyclist will bike 8000 years before a fatal crash but experiences a "very scary" near miss every week and some kind of incident daily.

So you're left with relative safety in…

This thread has lots of links to reviews and primary source and is based on David's RNZ science spot.

I have a folder at work somewhere on my computer that also has a bunch…

Oddly enough, I’m just back in the door having been reminded that my bete noire is the black BMW.

Its always a bit awkward coming up the slope at the Pt Chev end of…

I tend to stop as far forward as possible anyway – which is generally in front of the green box with my front wheel up against the lines showing the pedestrian crossing channel (if…

This morning for example... it was wet and dull (mind you, meteorological conditions are largely irrelevant for the final example)
1. Car pulls into the Clear Way/ bus lane…

It’s the ones that just…

I had the amusement the other day of a cop car being stopped at the lights when I pulled up in the next lane. Passenger side cop says while…

Hopefully as people see good drivers give cyclists appropriate space and consideration more drivers will learn how to do it.

The worst intersections are those that…

More often the tradie in a great big ute, in my experience.

And imo, it's getting steadily better – it's worth saying this out loud. I've been pleased and surprised a few times lately.…

As an aside, I was for Copenhagen-style bike lanes a few years back, but as…

I have to confess I haven't worried too much about car doors since I was 14 (I'm now 57). I ride to take up my lane and block other traffic when I need to. It's in the road code: “it is acceptable…

Must have been the same one that – on a regular basis – turns left _just_ in front of me, seemingly oblivious to the fact that I’m moving…

With my Bike…