This sort of suggests that there are some nations that haven't met world-class standards, and will therefore be banished from the world. (Awesome!)

Well. Robyn, if you're a flaming pooftah with a low opinion of the government (and express that disdain in both traditional and new media) New Zealand and…

(and dunno how youse all do that flash indented RE: thing above!)

To the left of the "Post a reply..." box is a handy little reminder of formatting that is possible. The one you want to use is the "Quote:", namely, put the text between HTML quote…

I think this is... not irrelevant, but not the issue. If the RSAA process is a private process, which uses anonymous case studies as part of their education and legal process, then it's not up to anyone to break that privacy, except the individual concerned.

You're right of course, but…

"I'm of a view that anyone who tries as hard as people like Zoui and this dude to stay here they must really want to. For God's sake, its not…

looking for some good odds...

This sort of suggests that there are some nations that haven't met world-class standards, and will therefore be banished from the world. (Awesome!)

If wishing made it so!

as a vibrant and energetic world-class nation

Wait, how can a nation be world class? This sort of suggests that there are some nations that haven't met world-class standards, and will therefore be banished from the world. (Awesome!)

– you know, bitching about how his dissent is being crushed (yet again) in the pages of a major metropolitan daily newspaper. Poor darling...

No, I don't know. Got a linkt?

If the Stop Bush Coalition want to force some kind of confrontation with the Police for God only knows what reason, then they wear the consequences.

These events have been the focus of some very violent protests in the past. Violence by people who if they were in power would…

Craig, you've got me down as if I'm some raving, feral protester or something; I'm not.

Grant – fair enough. If you want to be a 'raving, feral protestor', you really suck at it. :) My point is that it may well be an 'image problem' for Howard (or Iemma,…

But if I was looking for a venue to host a major international meeting – and incidentally show off Australia to the world as a vibrant and energetic world-class nation – I've got to admit Canberra would be well down the list.

true. and besides, howard has effectively made sydney…

not seeing how that makes it a good idea for the Prime Minister to be trying to bring political pressure on either the NSW judiciary or police because their decision might well be politically embarrasing. Don't you find that even slightly problematic?

No more so than the risk of 'political…

The decision does Howard no favours either, reiterating his creepy, Bush's-puppet image.

Well, tough titty. I don't believe that's the function of the state or federal judiciary. Might also be a rather good idea if the Prime Minister also kept an appropriate distance from the operational functions of the NSW…

Fair enough, and there's no city on earth that's going to be appealing to everyone.

I love Sydney, but will cheerfully admit my view might be rather more jaundiced if I was getting serviced by a mortgage that resembled my telephone number and commuting via one of the city's…

As the original blog entry notes, it's Howard who knowingly landed them with the mess by opting to hold the circus in Sydney, rather than purpose-built Canberra.

Sorry, Joe, not seeing how that makes it a good idea for the Prime Minister to be trying to bring political pressure on…

I find your lack of faith disturbing

Well played!

I don't believe that's the function of the state or federal judiciary.

Good for you. As the original blog entry notes, it's Howard who knowingly landed them with the mess by opting to hold the circus in Sydney, rather than purpose-built Canberra.

Good call. I've just gotten off the phone to my brother in Sydney and said that only small of the CBD was being sealed off.

True but it's still the CBD and being made to feel like you've been locked in a cage every time you walk down the main…

The decision does Howard no favours either, reiterating his creepy, Bush's-puppet image.

Well, tough titty. I don't believe that's the function of the state or federal judiciary. Might also be a rather good idea if the Prime Minister also kept an appropriate distance from the operational functions of the NSW…

Not really, Sydney is a big place and only a small part is being sealed off. It would be the same as saying Auckland was in lockdown when in fact only the Viaduct area was closed. But yes, the media have latched on to this word Lockdown.
I expect (some…

The language of the police case, weirdly hysterical as it was, presumably persuaded the judge that he didn't want to have his name on any calamiry, no matter how unlikely.

Which is a type of authoritarian bullying which has become commonplace in the "war on terror", and is used particularly…

The language of the police case, weirdly hysterical as it was, presumably persuaded the judge that he didn't want to have his name on any calamity, no matter how unlikely.

OK, but if the unlikely happened – and I've never been on a protest where there weren't some over excitable…

Australia has taken a remarkably anti-democratic turn under Howard, and it frightens me.

The progress reports from the hearing, with the judge describing the police case as "opaque", were clearly not a good pointer to the final decision.

The language of the police case, weirdly hysterical as it was, presumably…

I expect the protest will go ahead, with added banners of "screw the court". And the judge will deserve every bit of that.

Australia has…

It's more that the evidence he presented to back up a claim that he was at risk of persecution was fabricated. There are 300,000 Christians in Iran, and they have dedicated Parliamentary representation. Apostasy prosecutions are rare, and usually political.

Fair point, and I'd point out that (to paraphrase Gilbert…

The problem with being serious about human rights is that you find yourself having to stick up for scoundrels all the time. Panah's a scoundrel.

Gee, I don't know if I'd want to say that, and the rejection of the sincerity of his conversion is the part of the RSAA…

Our immigration policy is racist. Ozzys & Poms can come with pretty much gay abandon. I'm all for open immigration, if they want to come let them.

Mr Cherry, a Jewish Truck Driver who…

Yes, but by allowing ppl to 'jump the queue' you encourage others to do the same. Why follow the process if you see others getting refugee status by ripping up their passports and finding Jesus?

As Che has pointed out, not everybody can even get in the queue. More importantly,…

I consider myself a liberal on asylum and refugee policy, but this guy just doesn't seem like the right case to me.

The problem with being serious about human rights is that you find yourself having to stick up for scoundrels all the time. Panah's a scoundrel. But he is…

Clearly the guy's supporters have got the wrong end of the stick a bit, but this isn't a battle to be fought in the arena of public opinion either way.

I think the frustration for people on the government side is always that one side can go to the court…

We'll have to wait till 16:00 AU time (18:00 NZST) to see if the scaremongering little pricks get away with it, or if the judge makes the obvious response…

Gee, I hope they have enough rose petals and ballot boxes.

A good half an hour later there was a bloke in a suit knocking on our window. The SIS had left one behind and the door didn't have a handle to open from the outside. Gold pure gold.

So, did you leave them out there to freeze for a while?…

these guys came over as refugees, got an education to post-grad, and were planning on heading back there once things…

Speaking only for myself, I would rather give $10 to helping a third world country develop (you know, to people who can't afford air fares) than give $1 to a refugee.

Generally I agree with you; all other things being equal, it is better to help people build their own…

(1) Subject to this section, confidentiality as to the identity of the claimant or other person whose status is being considered under this…

Not sure if I've said this one before, but anyway.

Prez Clinton stayed in a hotel in the Square in Christchurch (Old Social Welfare Building) and right next door my office had expanded into the 4th or 5th floor of the BNZ Building. It had an access…

Speaking only for myself, I would rather give $10 to helping a third world country develop (you know, to people who can't afford air fares) than give $1 to a refugee. That's at least in part because I don't respect the decision making processes of our refugee tribunals.

Perhaps that…

]]> Wed, 05 Sept 2007 14:38:13 +1200 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-fabrication-and-humanity/?p=26763#post26763 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-fabrication-and-humanity/?p=26763#post26763 Wed, 05 Sept 2007 14:35:24 +1200 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-fabrication-and-humanity/?p=26762#post26762 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-fabrication-and-humanity/?p=26762#post26762 Wed, 05 Sept 2007 14:31:21 +1200 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-fabrication-and-humanity/?p=26761#post26761 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-fabrication-and-humanity/?p=26761#post26761

One can feel a lot of sympathy for Panah but his dishonsty has to be compared with all those others who are just as, or even more, desperate who play by the rules.

isn't that the same meme floated about the people on the tampa?

the ones who couldn't get…

But seriously, there are many many refugees wanting to come to NZ who abide by the UN established process. One can feel a lot of sympathy for Panah but his dishonsty has to be compared with…

their historical shiftfights

in an age of history and cultural wars, that term might well have some great relevance.

Translation: the majority of New Zealanders are vicious xenophobes who do not give a rat's arse about human rights.

I think they would disagree with your conception of what respecting human rights requires.

Speaking only for myself, I would rather give $10 to helping a third world country develop (you…

I disagree. The problem is that people don't have a great deal of confidence in the integrity (or even the intrinsic value) of the refugee system, populated as it is by people who do not share their views.

Translation: the majority of New Zealanders are vicious xenophobes who do not…

I guess we're down to what constitutes a significant risk and how that should be proved. The RSAA found Panah's evidence that he was at risk to be fabricated. What evidence should it have acted on?

Reports by Amnesty International and other NGOs of the religious situation in Iran. And…

This issue is about generousity and simple human decency. Unfortunately, the public rhetoric is dominated by the ungenerous and indecent competing to be increasingly vicious in an effort not be a "soft touch" (i.e. decent human beings). And their xenophobia and hatred shames all of us.

I disagree. The problem…

And I have to applaud them again. I've just spent 3 frustrating days proving to myself that a particular line of development I was following was a dead end. I went…

Is there a way with Wikipedia to link to a particular edit? Then at least there would be some permanency to what you are linking to.

Yes, that's easy enough to do. OTOH, the Christianity in Iran and LGBT Rights in Iran articles seem to both have their historical shiftfights,…

Yes. Either we stand for human rights, or we don't. If people face a significant risk of persecution due to their religious or political beliefs, or their race or social status, then we should grant them refuge. Anything else is failing in our duty as human beings.

I guess we're…

Along with applicants from Burma, China, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, North Korea, Eritrea, Sudan and Vietnam? Those are the other countries on the US State Dept's most recent "Countries of Particular Concern".

Yes. Either we stand for human rights, or we don't. If people face a significant risk of persecution due…

To me people with that sort of energy and persistence are the exactly the "huddled masses" we need in N.Z.

In sentiment, I don't disagree. Panah even has skills, as a drainlayer. But, again, under the system we've got, Panah was found to have no credibility. And I can't see…

Don't even get me started on countries who deport gays to Iran.

Fortunately, from the RSAA's database, we don't seem to do that.

Quite right, I/S – we just make sure make sure their queer-killers have plenty of butter to put on their toast and nice wooly socks. And apparently…

Russell: no, it's not an automatic death sentence, but it is a risk, and there is significant persecution. And that's why we should be granting these people protection.

Along with applicants from Burma, China, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, North Korea, Eritrea, Sudan and Vietnam? Those are the other countries on the…

But perhaps as the Australian goverment hasn't yet managed to suffer a terrorism attack on Australian soil, it is settling for second best and trying to at least look like a viable terrorist target.

I don't know if they would go as far as to wish an attack as such,…

Meanwhile, Sydney goes into lockdown for the visit of an American president.

Compare and contrast the APEC security procedures in Sydney with what happened in Auckland in 1999.

Yeah, the world has become a different place in those eight years, but I really enjoyed all the Secret Service guys, the…

Don't even get me started on countries who deport gays to Iran.

Fortunately, from the RSAA's database, we don't seem to do that.

Which, of course, is a bad thing according to certain wingnut blog commenters.

Fortunately, from the RSAA's database, we don't seem to do that.

From the quotes above, it looks like he'd only have to prove he wasn't a moslem, since pretty much everyone who doesn't follow Islam is at risk.

There are something like 300,000 Christians in Iran, part of a 2% non-Muslim minority that includes 25,000 Persian Jews.

From the Wikipedia article…

I don't want to see anyone deported to their death, but if we're not careful we could end up with an influx of gay christians from totalitarian islamic regimes. Leaving no room for those poor white Afrikaaners.

; )

Wouldn't Panah be just as much at risk on his return if he'd declared himself to be an atheist?

Indeed. But how the hell would he prove it to the satisfaction of the RSAA? How could anyone?

There is another issue here, and that is the RSAA's approach to claims of…

That's not a policy, and it's certainly not a responsible use…

Given the centrality of religion to some refugee claims, the RSAA probably needs to go a little further, but it seems that their position of extreme scepticism is taking it way too far.

OTOH, this is the same "extreme scepticism" that led the authority to question claims about Ahmed Zaoui's…

. . . its rather difficult to prove a negative.

In a tolerant society such as that which Panah aspires to live in, yes indeed. But not, presumably, in theocratic Iran, where it's supposedly a crime to be a godless apostate. Wouldn't Panah be just as much at risk on…

As I said, I don't deny the…

Not really, Sydney is a big place and only a small part is being sealed off. It would be the same as saying Auckland was in lockdown when in fact only the Viaduct area was closed. But yes, the media have latched on to this word Lockdown.

And who would…

He has been engaged in a long standing exchange of emails and letters with Richard Dawkins, and carries around books from Marx, Nietzsche, Satre and Betrand Russell :)

Which would be quite unusual for an atheist. Most simply live their lives without religion. But its rather difficult to prove a…

(Still, it could be worse – Panah could be an atheist. How the hell are meant to prove that?)

According to one of the benchmarks you find acceptable as a test of genuine Christianity, by attempting to foist his beliefs onto others.

And if it doesn't, just think what closing the Auckland motorway so that Bush doesn't get stuck in traffic on his way to the airport would do...

I thought this was done when President Clinton arrived?
But then again, it was a Saturday ...

(Still, it could be worse – Panah could be an atheist. How the hell are meant to prove that?)

He has been engaged in a long standing exchange of emails and letters with Richard Dawkins, and carries around books from Marx, Nietzsche, Satre and Betrand Russell :)

There's something about being told where you can and can't go that rankles

I think what rankles more is that it is being done in an effort to regulate what you can and can't say.

BTW, I hope the sight of the disruption to Sydney will convice Kiwis that we…

. . . attempts to convert people??? Sorry, to me that's hardly a tenet of genuine religious faith. In a tolerant society the need to constantly proselytise is more an indication of an ongoing need to reinforce a shallow and unexamined belief system.

In which case a fair chunk of…

Panah talks about his god, goes to church, prays, and attempts to convert people. This is more than most New Zealanders who profess Christianity ever do, and if we were presented these same facts about anyone else, we would have no difficulty in accepting the genuineness of their faith.

.…

It's hard to divine a basis for allowing him to stay in New Zealand.

Not really. What matters in assessing the danger Panah will face if deported to Iran (and despite the Minister's claims to the contrary, that is the only option. Quite apart from the fact that any transfer…