I've just had the point made to me (without permission to cross-post the e-mail here sadly) that when Parliament still has the power to imprison for an indeterminate people who've been found guilty of "contempt of the House" (which isn't as well-defined in standing orders as one might like)…

I'd be in favour of parliamentary privilege, if the privileges committee didn't give me the strong impression of a really big wet bus ticket.

Can't say I disagree with you there, but it's a damn sight more representative of the House, and a little more deliberative, than Michael Cullen's office.…

If John Key stood up in the House yesterday and told a porkie pie he should face the Privileges Committee and wear the consequences. Just like everyone else.

I'd be in favour of parliamentary privilege, if the privileges committee didn't give me the strong impression of a really big wet…

The point is Craig, your hysteria yesterday about "facts" or lack thereof, comparing people to Rove and accusing me of teenage debate seems to lack credibility in today's cold light.

And you are still at it today. Good grief.

Gee, Don, can I see your 'hysterical' and raise you a…

"If I am a shareholder of TranzRail and I want to get up in this House and start talking about that company, then my shareholding is relevant," he [Key] had said.

The point is Craig, your hysteria yesterday…

The question to Dr Cullen had been: "What instructions has the minister issued to Treasury regarding the many secret meetings they have held in recent months with TranzRail's management,…

But Deputy Prime Minister Michael Cullen last night pointed to questions Mr Key asked in Parliament on April 9, 2003, while he still owned the shares.

The transcript of question 8 on that day does make for interesting reading:

8. Tranz Rail—Rail Network
[Volume:607;Page:4969]
8. PETER BROWN (Deputy Leader—NZ First)…

Ah Craig, you weren't being a little...Rovian...yesterday, were you?

Well, Don, if Cullen seriously believes that Key has mislead the House the the breech of privilege complaint is being drafted as we speak.

I'm also sure that every Labour MP's financial records (including family trusts) are being scoured to make…

That was because on June 18, 2003, while National's associate transport spokesman, he criticised the Government's competing bid with Toll to buy back the rail tracks without declaring his shareholding.

But her attack backfired when Mr Key told Parliament the trust had sold the shares before he made those comments…

National attacked the Government yesterday over increased road-user charges and a law passed last night allowing regional fuel taxes to fund large capital projects – but won't say it would undo them.

"How on earth can you justify putting more…

Sorry Craig, wasn't ignoring you

Didn't think you were – not that you're on my clock anyway. And I hope chemo is going as well as that long wet weekend in Suck City ever does.

I just know that I would want to defend myself if accused of insider trading.…

There IS an average of 3 people per…

And American political campaigning has refined that to a near-surgical pitch.

Oh we don't dare disagree here, but you are very quick to equate NZ politics to the shit-storm that is US elections.

I don't think the two are comparable. For one, they elect a solitary head of state, we…

But we in NZ do not do Rovian (and this includes National) because there's just not enough controversy in this country.

Point taken, David, but the Rove-style of politics also includes refining the old saw that if you get the big lie out there, and have it repeated often enough,…

And, Don, you really need to try and mount a defence that hasn't been scripted…

Sofie, state housing income-related rents apply to only a small proportion of beneficiaries.

I'd hazard a guess that there are about 61,000 households paying income related rents (about 90% of HNZC's tenants). Assuming they're all on benefits & there are an average of 3 tenants per household ( let's make it…

which is A-OK as long as Darth Rove and Daleks Crosby and Textor don't have anything to do with it

No, I didn't say it was ok, you're a better arguer than that. I just said that your use of 'Rovian' was hyperbole.

I personally find it hilarious that she's…

I hardly think this a 'Rovian' smear Craig. There might be a slight use of hyperbole.

OK, David, it's not as if she accused him of supporting third-trimester abortion, lying about his military record or fathering an illegitimate baby on a black protitue. Just insinuated that he used his position…

Given…

I hardly think this a 'Rovian' smear Craig. There might be a slight use of hyperbole.

It was a roudy day but I also note that John Key didn't respond regarding accusations and it was only after he left and returned some time later, he was able to claim ,he had sold his shares (I think he gave a time frame)

And your point, Sofie? I…

You really need to check out Rove and C/Ts track record before making such idiotic comparisons.

And, Don, you really need to try and mount a defence that hasn't been scripted by a surly teenager still using the moral reasoning skills of a toddler. Everybody does it... they did it…

Now, folks, how are we going to blame National and Crosby/Textor for this little Rovian smear (made under parliamentary privilege, naturally)?

Good grief Craig, you seem to be popping up all over the show with this comment. You really need to check out Rove and C/Ts track record before making…

Prime Minister Helen Clark led a blistering attack on National leader John Key yesterday in a bid to link him to a privatisation agenda in stark contrast to the Government's…

Craig, dude, I love you, but you base so many of your arguments on false equivalences.

Danielle: The love is entirely mutual, but I've lived on a fixed and not exactly generous income on both sides of the 1990 election — and have more experience that I like to think…

Yes, I do. Your point is basically correct, on average, but only relevant to working people. I'm sorry, I don't quite know what you mean by "improved housing".

Fair enough, I was thinking about all low-income people however I see now that you were talking about people out…

Sideshow Bob – welldone :(

And yes, I remember the Fourth Labour government, and I remember what they did. I also remember the National governments which came afterwards.

Curious that in 1990 National positioned themselves as the anti-Labour, then went full steam ahead with the revolution that Douglas et al started. This time, they are…

3410, aren't you ignoring Working for Families in this analysis?

Yes, that's right. I'm talking about people who aren't working.

Do you mean unemployment, disability etc? I understood that, as a result of increased employment and wages, improved housing and WfF, income levels for low- to middle-income individuals and families…

My point is that schools teach to the exam (measurable) portion of the syllabus.

You may well be right on this, however we can't ignore measures in this discussion can we? Kerry feels schools are failing, perhaps s/he is focused on factors currently not measured, I can't comment on this.…

Well for most students including as measured by progress in reading literacy for Year 5, senior secondary literacy and NCEA progress.

Surely the dirty word here is measurable. Speaking as broad consumer of secondary product the students I see have a limited skill set at which they are very good…

Just a reminder that benefit levels are currently (in dollar terms) still lower than they were before Richardson's 1991 budget; by my reckoning about 15%. In real terms, of course, it's much more than that.

Also, not really keeping up with (relevant) inflation, so in fact still going down.

3410,…

... however beneficiaries do face the prospect of cuts to their income if National's elected and particularly if it's reliant on ACT.

Just a reminder that benefit levels are currently (in dollar terms) still lower than they were before Richardson's 1991 budget; by my reckoning about 15%. In real terms,…

He's told me on many an occassion that he and his colleagues are still dealing with the legacy of the benefit cuts in 1991 and market rentals later in National's last term. That legacy is particularly evident in young men and women who were pre-schoolers in the 90s.

Indeed. And…

For me: a complete revamp of education, it is not delivering in so many ways.

Kerry, could you elaborate? My own sense is that schools are performing very well for most students including as measured by progress in reading literacy for Year 5, senior secondary literacy and NCEA progress. That's…

Sadly, I can't be proven right or wrong on this point as National have no policy on Housing; none

I seem to recall Bob Clarkson announcing he'd be standing for Tauranga now that National had formulated its housing policy & he was happy with it.

It never turned up & Clarkson dropped…

I would like some simple, clear visions for each area laid out so that I can weigh…

So, you're not going to be voting at all then Danielle?

Craig, dude, I love you, but you base so many of your arguments on false equivalences. 'Labour may not be able to afford to deliver tax cuts to the middle classes' is qualitatively different to 'National will probably be…

There is still no real reason to give any particular party your vote – it's becoming a decision-on-balance of who has the more reasons not to be there.

Indeed. So what policy areas – bold moves – would make you sit up and take notice?

For me: a complete revamp…

So, you're not going to be voting at all then?

I'm unfortunately dallying with this idea at the moment – neither major party has laid out a plan for the next three years that inspires me (in fact it seems neither have laid one out AT ALL).
I'm not one…

I'm like Paul: very suspicious. I remember the 80s and 90s...

So, you're not going to be voting at all then Danielle? I do believe one or two of the people on Labour's front bench didn't pass the term of the Fourth Labour Government (1984-1900) chained up in the Beehive…

You're arguing a pretty marginal difference. Both major parties have effectively led a mad dash for the centre (where the votes are). They may not be the same, but they sure as hell aren't much different.

That may very well be true, but a slight reorientation can make all the…

I'll see you and raise you $5. Underestimating the talents of the man is plain silly. He's not George Bush no matter how you might like to believe that.

And to give Clark props where props are due, it's damn easy to forget that she while her formidable intelligence and…

Pretty shallow analysis. Seen from the extremes of left and right it may be the case, just because Labour has not rushed into whole sale nationalisation (or pick your favourite Marxists doctrine) and National are not espousing the destruction of Gummint does not mean they are the same.

I figured…

Anyone up for a $5 bet Key won't last the 1st term whether he wins/loses/draws the election?

Shep: I'd like to introduce you to a British friend of mine who lost a grand (back when that was real money) to his son, after betting that Maggie The Milk Snatcher wouldn't…

I really struggle with these sorts of statements. The Nats and Labour are effectively carbon copies of each other.

Pretty shallow analysis. Seen from the extremes of left and right it may be the case, just because Labour has not rushed into whole sale nationalisation (or pick your favourite Marxists…

To me the 'Leadership' issue is to attack Clark, as there is a large portion of the electorate simply tired of her & Labour has no succession planning.
Key has no past, Statehouse kid…

Why the hell should any politicians ever tell you a damn thing when every word, every action is going to be parsed to a degree nobody could ever stand? Any mistake is going to be put down to malice or incompetence. And God forbid you ever change your…

What with back-door privatisations (PPPs)

You might want to check out Jim Bolger's interview on Morning Report today — a very explicit refusal to rule out the possibility of KiwiRail getting involved in public private partnerships. I'm really looking forward to that Cabinet paper about the (as yet) strategically vague…

The funny thing is, I seem to have more faith in the viability of the Maori Party without the crutch of the Maori seats than you do

SO do I – I can't help but wonder what would happen to a seat like Otaki, if the local Maori seat were…

So.... it seems to me that far too many people are far too complacent about a change of government. It alarms me that those on the "left" are so willing to see 9 years of relative prosperity and reasonably healthy social policy potentially just go down the toilet because........why?

I've…

But wait a mo', Mikaere why would Darth Key want all those left-wing "Maaris" in general seats where they could make things very tricky indeed?

Isn't it called divide and rule? Each Maori seat would be subsumed by ~9 general seats, and, thanks to the awesomeness of FPP, there would…

I hope you don't leave. Sincerely.

Stanley: I won't — but I'm just working on realising when you're not adding value to a line of discussion and nobody is going to change their mind you walk away. But I don't want to come across as equating Jackie to the rather…

We can't go for transferable allowances, like fishing. Ownership & the right to use water needs to come & return to the community, National or Regional.

We need to wait 10-20 yrs for the "Free-Marketeers" to die off, but those…

Been fun, but this really is like Kiwiblog

I hope you don't leave. Sincerely.

If PA System has become a punching bag for National it's intensified lately, and I'd rather this was a forum for "debate" (whatever that means) than an echo chamber.

That said, National has an ideological position.…

I wouldn't go quite that far, AS. But we're not seeing a death match between Helen Stalin and John Hitler for who get to kick off the apocalypse. That would at least be amusing, in a creepy kind of way.

That brings to mind these hoary old chestnuts...

http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=RTOQUnvI3CA

http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=3MzShg7yXik

There appears to be a rush to deny this but frankly, it is precisely the kind of predictable comment given the deafening silence from National.

"Deafening silence"? Sorry, Paul — but I'm just going to call 'theatre' and move on. Been fun, but this really is like Kiwiblog. Just because…

NZers need to wake up and understand one thing – there's a lot of shit that will be on unsafe ground after these elections if Key's chaps get in.

There appears to be a rush to deny this but frankly, it is precisely the kind of predictable comment…

You can see how removing the Maori seats also removes the Maori Party from parliament? I feel privileged to be represented by an MP with the mana and capability of Pita Sharples and National seek to take that away.

The funny thing is, I seem to have more faith in…

NZers need to wake up and understand one thing – there's a lot of shit that will be on unsafe ground after these elections if Key's chaps get in.

Change one word (and wipe away the thick crust of spittle) and you've got a typical Kiwiblog screed from They Who…

NZers need to wake up and understand one thing – there's a lot of shit that will be on unsafe ground after these elections if Key's chaps get in.

I really struggle with these sorts of statements. The Nats and Labour are effectively carbon copies of each other. When the…

Given the historic patterns of MMP representation in NZ, miraculously abolishing the Maori seats, is pretty unlikely, and almost sounds like scare-mongering.

Although with a large enough National majority this year, the 'right' media campaign, and a quick-and-dirty Referendum early enough in their term, MMP itself might not necessarily be…

No matter how cute Mikaere tries to be, I find it very very difficult to believe he doesn't know exactly what kind of connotations casually throwing around words like "disenfranchisement" are meant to leave.

Dog whistling was not my intent. You can see how removing the Maori seats also removes…

ACT are pretty unlikely

Oh how I hope. I will actually stoop to voting for my National electorate puppet in order to try and keep Rodders out, and I'm hoping that Labour and the minor parties will push their voters to do the same. Rodney's majority in Epsom in '05…

I guess this is what it all boils down to: National have indicated that their collective minds are made up and, come 2014 (and assuming they have the numbers), they'll delete the Maori seats. No parley.

Given the historic patterns of MMP representation in NZ, miraculously abolishing the Maori seats,…

Pointing out policy is not dog whistling.

George: And, bugger me with a feather duster, a party actually trying to implement its policy through legislation! (With no guarantee of ultimate success, need I add.) Outrageous.

Sorry for getting snippy, but I'm a wee bit over repeating myself here. No matter…

how complicated would it really be to fix the election date... unless the Government lost confidence and supply

Well, the government could still always contrive an early election by firing Peters from his sinecure and putting a $5 toll on the Tauranga Harbour Bridge.

genuine dialogue doesn't happen through dishonesty and rank dog-whistling.

Pointing out policy is not dog whistling.

Craig seems fine with that, I'm not.

What I'm not fine with is hyperbolic scare-mongering. Meanwhile, Mikaere, the status quo remains where amendments to the Electoral Act will have to go through the usual legislative process, and pass only with the assent of a majority of MPs at the third…

Oh Rudd's more experienced that Key also...

As I said up-thread, I think the comparison between Lange and Key is a reasonable one but not one that I think favours Key.

And as I think is blindingly obvious, playing the 'experience' card didn't do squat for Muldoon, John Howard and doesn't seem to be working for John…

And the fact that you'll get a great deal of debate from people as to whether a law only affects one group of people, or whether other people are affected as well.

If the Scots decide they want to break away from the Union, is that a decision for them,…

And it's a simple statement of fact that Lange had been in Parliament for a little under five years when he became leader of the Opposition, and was Prime Minister two years after that.

As I said up-thread, I think the comparison between Lange and Key is a reasonable one…

Craig, really. Comparing JK to Lange, and to Lincoln? More like Warren Harding!

Stanley: Would you like to try getting in the same time zone as my point sometime this century? If "experience" is your hallmark for leadership, then Lincoln was the worse POTUS ever. Franklin and Teddy Rossevelt were…

You don't want to come up with a sillier example do you?

How about a less emotive example for NZers? If the Scots decide they want to break away from the Union, is that a decision for them, or for all subjects of the UK? It most seriously impacts upon…

Not so with gay sexuality, it's nobody else's business. Why should homophobes have a say ?

Well apart from the obvious that in a democratic country, laws are passed by and for everyone, whether by our representatives in parliament, or by direct vote.

And also the small complication that if…

I want to see an inclusive, tolerant society, where every New Zealander is equal before the law.

with its smarmy little implication that Maori have more political rights at the moment than anyone else.

Agreed. And my next thought is "isn't this a charter for having a flat tax regime…

They should remember that they tarnish the memory of Ngata and Pomare when they run this populist 'abolish the Maori seats' nonsense.

It's an interesting point. Who now remembers that some of the most prominent Maori political figures of the past once sat on the Reform and United Party benches?…

To provide you with an equally repulsive logical conclusion to what you are presenting, would you be OK with government that passed a law re-criminalising gay sex, or should they, y'know, see if it's cool with the gay community first ?

You don't want to come up with a sillier…

It was the subsequent laws banning subsistence & traditional fresh water fishing methods, the introduction of Trout & Salmon along with grazing (removes shade and increases water temp, pollution, & predation) that massively impacted tuna numbers.

1866 Oyster Fisheries Act prevented Maori from commercial fishing. The Quota Management scheme still…

It's sad to see that your political masters have lost all sense of history and honour in their headlong rush to regain the power so cruelly kept from them by the people. They should remember that they…

See you all in 2020, for the inauguration of President Clark ("a towering figure on the world stage" – Prime Minister David Farrar).

PM Farrar is preferable to PM Redbaiter or PM Dad4Justice (assuming they're, in fact, all different people).

For example, under a Tino Rangatiratanga-based system, we would not…

In my opinion fairly and reasonably settling grievances, albeit for a fraction of their real worth, and promoting/supporting the development of commerically-viable Maori owned and led-business is heading in the right direction.

I agree. My comment about Tino Rangatiratanga stems from the fact that about 93% of the signatories to…

Actually, it has two meanings, according to the Compact Oxford:

I really got over playing "my dick-tionary is bigger than yours" in high school debate club. You might also want to look up 'denotation' and connotation' while you're at it, Mikaere, because the dog you're whistling for is pretty obvious…

Oh come on Paul, stay bitter. We were promised universal student allowances in 1996. You're not soft on Lockwood now too are you?

Hah! Not at all, although in my work with the industry training mob, I had did say to Lockwood that his implementation of Bill Birch's reinterpretation of…

One of the interesting things about Obama is the way that he's leveraged the internet and raised at least half his money from small donors – meaning he's much less beholding to big money than any recent candidate has been.

He also resolutely refuses to take money from lobbyists. I…

Kyle, sure; he's a git most of the time and he's also capable of thoroughly vile politics.

Oh come on Paul, stay bitter. We were promised universal student allowances in 1996. You're not soft on Lockwood now too are you?

And when the rest of Maoridom agree with your fatuous…

Then again, I'd be happy to swap the Maori seats for a workable political model the encompasses Tino Rangatiratanga.

Mikaere, I support your argument in favour of retaining the Maori seats until such a time as Maori and non-Maori agree otherwise, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean…

Oh, I don't know — Lange was something of an experiential lightweight when he became leader of the Opposition, certainly compared to Robert Muldoon.

Well, that's certainly the obvious comparison but somehow I don't think we'll see a repeat of the famous "I love you" interview, more likely a NZ…

Not at all, Mikaere. "disenfranchised" has a rather specific meaning

Actually, it has two meanings, according to the Compact Oxford:

1 deprive of the right to vote.
2 deprive of a right or privilege.

Clearly, revoking the Maori seats falls into the second definition. I fail to see how you could…

...however it's not nearly enough to obscure the fact that he is still unbelievably short on experience.

Oh, I don't know — Lange was something of an experiential lightweight when he became leader of the Opposition, certainly compared to Robert Muldoon.

And, as I pointed out during various iterations of…

Outside the studio and press conference, I've found most politicians are actually pretty reasonable people.

And I think having to deal with Paul Henry or Paul Holmes first thing on a Monday morning would drive a saint beyond reason. :)

I think that's why so many people have a begrudging regard for the renegades e.g. Winston.

No, he's a git. Renegade or not.

The message I get from parliament and the bureaucrats is that they hold the rest of us in contempt.

I agreed with most of your comment Kerry, but I don't agree with this, particularly with regards bureaucrats (but I would say that).

The spin and polish does tend…

What's this Craig, are you calling me dishonest ?

Not at all, Mikaere. "disenfranchised" has a rather specific meaning — the revocation of the right of suffrage (the right to vote) to a person or group of people — and if you're not engaging in rhetorical over-kill then your definition…

And just to totally change the subject...

At midnight on the last day of June, can I pat the other PAers on the back for this being the first month when we've exceeded 55 thousand unique readers (56,491 to be precise — with a mean visiting time of 8 minutes).…

While this might be long enough for National to have a change of heart, I'm minded to conclude that since they have effectively ditched…

It might not be a principle you agree with, but to cry disefranchisement seems foolhardy.

Well, rather dishonest anyway.

What's this Craig, are you calling me dishonest ? Unless you subscribe to the principle that criticising National's policies is thoughtcrime and therefore inherently dishonest, I suggest you visit a dictionary…

Not to mention the bizarre form of discrimination which is inherent in 'choosing' your Head of State from within a single aristocratic family (which, bizarrely, lives literally on the other side of the world). Might as well be the dark side of the moon.

I'm one of those people who's…

Well, Caleb, I've never heard anyone hankering to take the great leap backwards to reintroducing the property qualification or genuinely disenfranchising women.

Well, there is one ex-pat conservative blog I can think of where such ideas go down well.

I'm also rather keen on getting rid of the 'political consensus'…

Sadly, those deprived of power for almost 9 years, unable to cope with the natural order of things being so disordered, will do absolutely anthing to right the wrong.

OK, Stanley. I'm sorry to tell you this,but we do draw the line at Satanic rituals. It's all fun and games…

What's North & South's circulation down to these days?

Hope it's not as low as APN's share price. :(

The privilege of setting the election date is a relic of First Past the Post absolutism. Give it to the electoral commission, with the option of invoking the Governor General should the Government not have the confidence of the house.

George: I'm sure our resident Legal Beagle could come up…

At midnight on the last day of June, can I pat the other PAers on the back for this being the first month when we've exceeded 55 thousand unique readers (56,491 to be precise — with a mean visiting time of 8 minutes).…

This is an area in which National has actually been transparent, and consistently advocated a relatively unambiguous policy based on a clear principle... I fail to see how this is either cavalier or arrogant.

Well, dissolving a political consensus that's been in place for over 140 years is a pretty…

and i think The Standard has achieved its goal of leveling the research playing field and bringing the bracing breeze of competition (doesn't everyone love competition?) to the blogsphere.

I pretty much agree. The Standard has succeeded as the obvious alternative; a clearly left-leaning blog. However, it's also…

I think you'll find that Aro Valley in Wellington is home to both the Hippys (ies?) AND the socialists.
Both of whom vote Green.

And:

Which would relate if 'lived in Aro Valley' and 'members of the Green Party' were the same set.

In recent years the place has become…

When asked in the 17th century why England was going to war with the Dutch, some English general or another frankly replied along the lines of "Because they have to much trade and we have resolved…

This evening I happened to bump into the very person who tipped off the Standard to the RDU interview.

Let's just say: Labour-friendly, but not in Wellington and not in or at Parliament. So all ninth-floor conspiracies should be set aside.

raise a family, drive a car and keep a their heads above water

I think that's:
pay a nanny, drive a Ferrari and keep one's head above the balmy waters of the Carribean.

I was just channelling Forrest Gump (or something)... you know "evil is as evil does"... and CT haven't done anything effectively evil for about seven years now.

It's kind of like John Key twirling his…

The Family Party is Destiny.

So have they changed their name so that Tamaki's preachatisements aren't considered election advertising?

Seriously, the fallout from this kind of cavalier, arrogant, disenfranchisement will be massive.

I'm certainly not disenfranchised by being on the general roll. I don't see how it would be any different for New Zealanders of other ethnic backgrounds.

If memory serves, there's a decent proportion of Maori on the…

I thought they'd hedged and qualified that one up the wazoo. Is it still live?

From the National Party website:

The National Party Caucus today moved to confirm its position on the future of the Maori seats, which involves tying their abolition to the settlement of historic Treaty claims.

"The…

Like this, Tom? You've really arrived when you've got your very own attack blog, but as I've said here before the running blog feud between Kiwiblog and The Standard (which seems to have abated quite a bit) is boring as only blog-feuds can be.

I have come to share your…

The privilege of setting the election date is a relic of First Past the Post absolutism. Give it to the electoral commission, with the option of invoking the Governor General should the Government not have the confidence of the house.

Is there something that could be done in NSW first…

the amount of trying to discredit the standard that goes on in the right wing blogsphere approaches paranoia at times.

Most lefties on the web long ago accepted Farrar's impact as significant – it sometimes seems Kiwiblog is the primary news source for the Herald op-ed writers – and stopped…

if Labour cared that much, they could dispense with their own games and announce the date tomorrow.

The privilege of setting the election date is a relic of First Past the Post absolutism. Give it to the electoral commission, with the option of invoking the Governor General should the Government…

And the connection between this and the issue at hand is...?

That the fashionable bogeyman de jour (and one set up to suit the partisan interests of the speaker, more often than not) doesn't do a damn thing to address a toxic culture. One that's a little more complex than…

Does that included their non-negotiable declaration that they will unilaterally remove the Maori electorates ? It's one of the few things that National are clear that they will do.

I thought they'd hedged and qualified that one up the wazoo. Is it still live?

she probably needs to get outdoors and get fit like the rest of us – that she can ski should not be a surprise

Oh, she's scary fit. Cross-country skiing is not for the faint of heart.

And four months out from the election, we're beginning to really need to know.

I'm still doing National the credit of believing they will reveal policy when the election is called — after all, if Labour cared that much, they could dispense with their own games and announce the date…

And the connection between…

But, if you can't see differences of scale and substance I will leave you to your…

Really, if that Clinton ad is the best "on the other hand" you have I think you simply prove my point.

Don: I think you've proved mine — it's not as if Clinton is a Republican or Karl Rove, because they're the only people who ever engage in scummy attack…

I love kidneys! Luckily, I have a long spoon.

There are politicians, on the other hand, who travel overseas to bad mouth our country.

Not even going to dignify that with a response beyond Samuel Johnson's observation that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. I had no idea that lacking love for the government of the day…

Huh? I thought I was saying I don't expect the sky to fall if the government changes this year, and you seem to have me saying something different. Did I miss something?

Just that you seemed to preface your comments by quoting what I thought was a pretty ambitious attempt…

To blame the work of "evil" consultants (I know you were exaggerting Russ, I suspect Hager and others believe the hype)

Evil called again. They can't do lunch. How's a breakfast of devilled kidneys?

First, Crosby Textor aren't that evil any more. They failed to save John Howard. They failed to get Michael Howard across the line. And their "small target" strategy for Boris Johnson overlooked the fact that his status as the "anti-Livingstone" was what appealed to his core supporters.

That might make…

When I made my comment, I was thinking about how much noise I heard about National's tactics at the 05 election (Exclusive Brethren, secret trusts) in the years afterwards. These were genuine issues, but after a certain point even people sympathetic to your arguments are tired of hearing them.

I…

saw the now notorious "3 am" advert could be forgiven for thinking

Sorry Craig. How does that equate to claiming McCain fathered illegitimate black babies, doctoring photos of desperate refugees to make out they were drowning their babies or the FUD attacks on Gypsies or the outright lies and innuendo…

idle speculation seems to have crystalised into genuine knowledge at an alarming rate. How do you do that?

I'm being employed by Crosby Textor to repeat memes.

When I made my comment, I was thinking about how much noise I heard about National's tactics at the 05 election (Exclusive Brethren,…

First, Crosby Textor aren't that evil any more. They failed to save John Howard. They failed to get Michael Howard across the line. And…

The point of this, in my not so humble opinion, is that the major opposition party in NZ is engaging in an election strategy that relies on debating only the issues of its choosing, and keeping the public in the dark on everything else. That is the scandal.

Precisely. Which…

No doubt Craig has an "on the other hand" waiting in the sidelines but in my experience of countless watching elections around the blocks for many years (sad but true) only Karl Rove comes close.

Don: I very much doubt Karl Rove (or Crosby/Textor) was giving advice on the downlow…

I don't know that at all – but its an obvious mouth organ, far more so than David Farrar's…

Unless Hager's story is a complete fabrication, Key had been working with Crosby/Textor for a year, at his own initiative — and he's lying in that interview.

Thats it! The importance of this is that integrity is at stake. The debate has pursued all the red herrings (which are good…

Any thoughts, Mr Hager?

Helen Clark and John Key could be getting their campaign advice from the devil, for all I care. The point of this, in my not so humble opinion, is that the major opposition party in NZ is engaging in an election strategy that relies on debating…

If you're referring to UMR Insight being the Labour Party's preferred pollsters then I guess it's fair to point out that Australian-owned UMR Research doesn't go out of its way to point out the New Zealand Labour Party among it's 'selected New Zealand client list'.

I would, however, be very…

I assume the guys behind the Standard work in the Labour Party Research Unit

Do you assume that because you know? Because if you are correct then I assume they have been very misleading about their connections. I think you should back up that claim.

It seems to me that Labour party supporters at PAS are building themselves a narrative to explain their parties upcoming annihilation and the Cosby/Textor

Maybe. Not for me though. I have just seen what these guys have done in the past and it disgusts me. No doubt Craig has an…

I doubt they're quite that well connected. I assume the guys behind the Standard work in the Labour Party Research…

Caught a comment on breakfast this morn on 95bfm. If I heard correctly Helen said they have always used a company called Insight. Has used the same company for years.

If you're referring to UMR Insight being the Labour Party's preferred pollsters then I guess it's fair to point out…

Of course not. The point is not that it is the Standard who posted it, but that John Key fudged the answer when he was asked in November 2007, “Have you got any advisors round now that are seen in The Hollow Men?”.

Wow. Kate asked the question twice. First…

but I don't see evidence of them actually making stuff up – they exploited Tampa but didn't create it from what I can see.

Well, a boat called Tampa was there... They didnt make that up.

It had people on board that may have been refugees or may have been…

So you missed the "/tongue in cheek" bit at the end there huh Craig.
I'll toddle off then.

No I didn't, but I should have slipped in a "/tongue in cheek" tag myself. :) Not that I think we're not going to see the usual suspects running exactly that line,…

Indeed. The only thing worse than having National sweep into power and do things I find distateful is having Labour hacks complain about their precious Government being "stolen" from them for months or years afterwards.

Is this some harking back to 1993 or is there, outside an odd reinterpretation of…

It seems to me that Labour party supporters at PAS are building themselves a narrative to explain their parties upcoming annihilation and the Cosby/Textor revelations feed right into that, providing an excuse for the left that poor old Labour will only lose because of some sort of satanic, right-wing media…

I don't think I've heard Clark described as 'smug'.

To be fair, Danyl I've said that Clark is a very, very smart and capable person but can be prone to a common failing among very, very smart and capable people — intellectual arrogance. You know, when you just can't bring…