Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Environmental league tables and their perils

Kumara Republic

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 12:27:20 +1300

Direct population control is not on the table; neither should it be.
The available evidence suggests that lifting women in developing countries out of poverty, and providing them with a good education , are initiatives that will go a long way in the desired direction.

Sadly, Social Darwinist culture war-piggery…

BenWilson

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 11:24:30 +1300

What kind of mad rash fool doesn't own gumboots? Even my 3 year old owns gumboots.

Sacha

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 10:23:16 +1300

I tend not to make good decisions off bad or partial information

You'll never make it in party politics, sir. Pills or not.

Sacha

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 10:22:46 +1300

People who don't own gumboots. Can't trust em. :)

David Hood

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 09:14:12 +1300

If it’s an elephant, it’s a rather monstrous one.

Particularly as it has been pretty thoroughly demonstrated that if you have a society where the women are educated and there are relatively egalitarian outcomes (basically a society where parents are knowledgeable, confident of their children living to adulthood and being…

Farmer Green

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 09:04:15 +1300

Craig Ranapia

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 08:23:38 +1300

This isn't to say it isn't worth striving to improve things. Just that we should be focused on what we're doing on a local level, and not how we compare to Burundi or whereever.

Wouldn't argue with that, but it also helps if we're having an informed debate off good…

andin

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 07:03:43 +1300

So FG or as I like to think of you the weird third person narrative guy. I think it must be some kind of distancing mechanism so your delicate ego doesnt get too bruised by the harsh language that we bandy about here. Lucky we dont bite eh!

Farmer Green…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 00:59:43 +1300

If it's an elephant, it's a rather monstrous one. Population control is only ever mentioned by people who intend it to apply to everyone but themselves (and perhaps their friends and family).

Especially if "everyone else" means the proles, in which case it crosses the dividing line into eugenics. And…

Euan Mason

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 22:02:09 +1300

emissions per capita wouldn’t solve the problem

Because the world simply does not care how many people are sharing the pollution. Carrying capacity is absolute, not relative.

Thanks, Sacha, you put it much more clearly that I did.

Sacha

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 21:51:30 +1300

emissions per capita wouldn't solve the problem

Because the world simply does not care how many people are sharing the pollution. Carrying capacity is absolute, not relative.

Nathaniel Wilson

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 21:46:07 +1300

I meant that discussion of population levels appears to be a taboo subject. It is the very obvious elephant in the room isn’t it?

If it's an elephant, it's a rather monstrous one. Population control is only ever mentioned by people who intend it to apply to everyone but themselves…

Euan Mason

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 21:41:55 +1300

“The result is that NZ is not changing”.
It is obvious to Farmer Green that agriculture is changing, but fails to see the opportunity that this change presents to it.
Farmer Green sees absolutely no evidence of change in urbanity; only finger-pointing and heel-dragging.

With restrictions on imports and a…

Euan Mason

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 21:32:43 +1300

Sorry that was ambiguous ; I meant that discussion of population levels appears to be a taboo subject. It is the very obvious elephant in the room isn’t it?

Yes, you have a point. However, expressing targets for emissions in terms of emissions per capita wouldn't solve the problem unless…

Farmer Green

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 21:19:53 +1300

Sorry that was ambiguous ; I meant that discussion of population levels appears to be a taboo subject. It is the very obvious elephant in the room isn’t it?
Or is that too agricultural a perspective?
It is somewhat peculiar that the discussion in dairying rightfully is centred on stocking…

Euan Mason

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 21:01:16 +1300

and a rapid expansion of our population during the last 15 years has made it difficult to control our GHG emissions,

Taboo!

New Zealand is fortunate that the Kyoto Protocol apparently allowed us to keep our net GHG emissions at 1990 gross emission levels between 2008 and 2012. In fact…

Euan Mason

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 18:48:30 +1300

and a rapid expansion of our population during the last 15 years has made it difficult to control our GHG emissions,

Taboo!

Taboo?

Farmer Green

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 18:42:25 +1300

and a rapid expansion of our population during the last 15 years has made it difficult to control our GHG emissions,

Taboo!

Euan Mason

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 18:30:50 +1300

Some responses to Joy's comments, those that sought to shoot the messenger, were shameful. Residents in Dunsandel have been advised not to drink their tap water. We have severe erosion where we've massively deforested our hill country in parts of the North Island, so severe that we taxpayers were asked…

Hilary Stace

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 16:35:52 +1300

It might help them stick together.

Farmer Green

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 16:31:03 +1300

" we should be focused on what we’re doing on a local level, and not how we compare to Burundi or whereever."

Hear , hear!

Kyle Matthews

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 16:25:25 +1300

Dr Joy is talking tonight with Land and Water Forum Chair Alastair Bisley and Professor David Hamilton from Waikato University at Good Earth Cafe, Dunedin, from 7.30pm. Attached to the NZ Freshwater Sciences Society conference which was at University of Otago today. Topical.

Kumara Republic

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 16:21:15 +1300

Nice column by Dave Armstrong on the whole affair.

Dave makes mention of tall poppy syndrome, but in this case, it's the exact opposite problem – pushing down the bottom from above instead of pulling down the top from below. And unfortunately it's a fast-growing national sport. More like a…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 15:06:08 +1300

You're so viscous...
I have pomegranate molasses in the cupboard. Not quite sure how to use it to assist worker activism, however.
Rum?
Stout?
Ethanol?
Soil bacteria enhancer?
Dietary supplement?

Blackstrap molasses is a source of calcium, magnesium, potassium, and iron; one tablespoon provides up to 20% of the daily…

Tim Michie

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 14:48:20 +1300

Feed the masses molasses?

Mike Dickison

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 13:44:29 +1300

Thanks for the plug, Russell! By the way, if anyone has any corrections of my working, or links to published research that's relevant, do leave a comment on the blog posting—it's a work in progress.

Hilary Stace

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 13:33:15 +1300

Pleased to report that I have pomegranate molasses in the cupboard. Not quite sure how to use it to assist worker activism, however.

Nathaniel Wilson

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 13:14:19 +1300

Which is pretty much the conclusion of the post.

...and it's an obvious enough point I'm puzzled why the response from the Government hasn't been a little clearer. But, and I in no way mean to post-jack, at least they're consistent with their response to other issues (i.e. intentionally befuddling).…

martinb

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 13:12:13 +1300

Well TVNZ is descended from the folk at the Beeb who taped over or destroyed all those Doctor Who episodes....

Russell Brown

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:58:32 +1300

This isn’t to say it isn’t worth striving to improve things. Just that we should be focused on what we’re doing on a local level, and not how we compare to Burundi or whereever.

Which is pretty much the conclusion of the post.

Russell Brown

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:52:17 +1300

There’s no shift – the indices are different (our number 2012 is based on a 2010 number and hasn’t changed between 2000 and 2010 apparently).

In short these indices are a mess, which isn’t that surprising

Thanks. I did try and reconcile that but I couldn’t see it. I've annotated…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:43:57 +1300

Totally Vapid Neo Zealots
... TVNZ, in its wisdom, has deleted all TVNZ 6 and 7 content from its on-demand service.
Wow! What a bunch of complete tossers, no sense of legacy (or value for money) – or is it just because having some quality available there would show the…

BenWilson

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:43:15 +1300

Gotta feel for Joy. Hopefully the Chancellor stays on his side.

Nathaniel Wilson

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:38:11 +1300

Part of the problem when determining "best" quality water is that you have to come down to some selection of what "good" water should look like, which is stupidly subjective. In NZ, we've typically focused on what we think ideal aquatic biologically communities should look like, which is a little…

Chris Waugh

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:30:22 +1300

Very nice column. I especially liked this bit:

"So infuriated was lobbyist Mark Unsworth that he sent a late-night email that made up for its lack of commas with extra vitriol,"

Nathaniel Wilson

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:28:37 +1300

There's no shift – the indices are different (our number 2012 is based on a 2010 number and hasn't changed between 2000 and 2010 apparently).

In short these indices are a mess, which isn't that surprising. Part of the problem is that "national" water quality is a weird, weird thing…

Alistair McBride

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:20:38 +1300

"Intriguingly, New Zealand's overall 2012 ranking is actually one place up on 2010 — but if you compare our 2010 and 2012 country profiles, you'll see that our score (high scores are good in this instance) on "water resources (ecosystem effects)", which includes water quality, has gone from 94.98 to…

Russell Brown

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 11:21:24 +1300

Nice column by Dave Armstrong on the whole affair.

Public Address

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 11:21:24 +1300

Discussion from blog post.