http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-M1QOoz9W8

Hmmm.... that seems like a very hard charge to prove (or defend).

There is some chance that it's an accurate accusation... but I'm not aware of any pre-historic audio recordings, of birds, their pre-cursors in the evolutionary chain, or in-fact anything before about…

And it was just the same in America 80-90 years ago. Arguably history’s most expensive and ineffectual exercise in attacking the symptom. The War…

Interestingly, this was precisely the policy that the Kapiti…

Actually I think the policeman would say, "Well now I have to arrest her, because it's domestic violence and it's police policy to always…

As for my use of "arbitrary", how dare I use a plain-English word in its plain-English meaning. I…

This is the proposal on the table. It is trivial to come up with cases this would result in injustice, of course, and that is precisely why it…

Oh! So you are using one of the most ringing phrases in several of the most famous protections of our rights and liberties, one of the most loaded and powerful terms…

Woah. We've turned an automatic night in the…

No actually we haven't established that the NZ police regularly engage in arbitrary arrests. If they do, there are well known remedies available, including BORA remedies and the criminal law, and legitimising that behaviour…

quality lawmaking

Aha!, I looked it up and I think you made that up.
Even I can't imagine the NZ Police arresting someone because they didn't like the style of his cravat and we do have laws that cover quite low levels of disorderly behaviour. So, while…

Because making them be honest about why they're arresting someone is such a terrible idea. We've just established that the police will arrest someone if they wish to, NZBORA or no.…

There does seem to be a shortage of Marmite at the moment.

Well either they were arrested for a reason, or they were subject to unlawful arrest, probably involving assault and false imprisonment. In principle, the courts should offer redress. In practice yes there are difficulties practically enforcing laws. This is one reason…

Bingo. All the rainbows-and-unicorns statements about NZBORA and civil liberties doesn't cut much mustard on the reality of effectively-arbitrary exercise of powers of arrest and detention. I'd be willing to bet that the protesters who were released without charge would've been…

Is there some kind of Nixonian world view at play? Or are students and stoners just fish in a barrel compared with gangs and drunken hooligans?

how does locking up street protestors fit with that?

They decide punishments when they put people through diversion, don't they?

Er, you said the cops have powers of arbitrary arrest, which is exactly false. If it is picky to point out the fundamental bulwarks of individual liberty from an…

and planned

Relevant case: Chris Fowlie's acquittal after being arrested subsequent to a "random" search on K Road.

They have discretion over who they arrest, but they can not arrest people in the absence of reasonable and probable grounds to think a specific offence has been committed.

it’s got…

Parents could help here. The fact I experience is that parents know about , aid and abet preloading before their kids hit the street. Parents don't quite click that what appears to be a relatively "happy…

Thanks for mentioning that Islander…I didn’t stumble upon that chestnut until well into my twenties, strange that it never made one of those ALAC ads up to that point ..

…Perhaps more drinking fountains in popular drinking spots….

I am not sure it would have the “desired” outcome.

Yeah, that's not desirable in the least. I was aiming to steer things further leftfield and hopefully provoke some ideas more akin to Hans Monderman's innovative traffic control solutions in Oudehaske.

In doing so I flagrantly ignored a number of his…

Johnston St, actually: not the usual haunt of munterdom, but it's near the Stadium and it was Sevens weekend.

Not legally they can’t (s22 BORA for those playing along at home.)

In general, arguments that start `let’s lock more people up’ are basically horrible horrible ideas that will lead to horrible…

One night working in town – there was a trouser less guy so off his face he was sitting in a Queen Street bus stop masturbating.

I am not sure it would have the "desired"…

I would rather that we got the promised enforcement and made it a bit easier for the police to get intoxicated persons who cause trouble off the streets for a short period.

I wonder if trouser confiscation could bring about a similar result at a lesser cost.

Unlikely. WFA started the triage facility because they were having so many ambulances tied up taking people to hospital for alcohol-related issues that didn't have to…

Right. That would have certainly nailed the assault victim I told you about upthread. He was, you will recall, told by…

That's the kind of thing I was thinking of. I hope…

Wellington Free Ambulance is seeking funding to run a triage centre in Wellington CBD on Friday and Saturday nights to deal with intoxicated punters, instead of tying up an ambulance taking someone with a trivial complaint…

This is a good point. It seems to me that a better CBD environment would have its own benefits. If there were…

legalising cannabis might cut alcohol consumption.

And why stop there? It stands to reason that P use may decline considerably were it competing in a marketplace with half a dozen legal alternatives.

Yet there's still the sense that this is attacking the symptoms rather than the cause, as Kapka Kassabova…

Exactly, but I don;'t think you'll convince the Ayatollahs around here that any answer than more jails/more cops will work.

For a more nuanced view, see David Nutt in today's…

No, you were in need of a refresher on precisely what constitutes voluntary participation. Nobody forces anyone to sell alcohol as their way of making a living. Nobody forces anyone to sell alcohol to minors…

Well, given that you're not at all keen on enforcing laws controlling the sale of liquor, and you're not keen on alcohol-fuelled…

For sure. Nice to remind ourselves what the end point of some decisions looks like.

So for instance while it is very nice to…

Ah, no. From the fine article:
The manager Ivy Yi-Wen Shen agreed to close the restaurant for 48 hours from 7am on July 21.
So the restaurant’s licence was…

That would be desired effect.

Seems better targeted than merely for being drunk. Belligerence and abusive behaviour is the main public safety issue. I'd rather also address that with therapy, but removing the immediate risk of harm seems appropriate.

I took the "tag and release" idea a bit further by suggesting utilisation of the "Alcatraz"…

good point.

Someone suggested (online somewhere recently, can't recall) using the same approach as…

How is a first offence not comparable? A third DUI is mandatory suspension for a minimum of a year, and some combination of up to a $6k fine and/or two years in jail. You don’t even have…

All the main cities have foot patrols on "party nights". Auckland has several pairs of cops walking the beat around Queen Street, as well as the various vehicle patrols. However, they can't be everywhere…

Good point. How is a fourth offence by a liquor outlet not comparable?

So? If you're so thoroughly invested, just keep to the rules. Check ID religiously, keep an eye on your staff to make sure they also take it seriously, and make sure your employment contracts are written…

Generally I am not a big believer in regulatory red tape arguments, but I do think that where you…

Kapka Kassabova: The unbearable lightness of being English

Seriously – what DO people expect will happen if they jump on someone's head repeatedly? The answer is clearly a) They're not thinking at all and b) They're not thinking at all and don't care.

Good on you Dexter for reporting these…

That is what I was alluding to when talking about perhaps there were less Police about when it mattered.

One – I drove into a guy who was stamping on another guys head a she lay prone in the gutter corner of Queen and Mayoral Drive – just nudged…

Show them what happens…

I thought so – anyone that severely traumatized by a flash of sequined drag queen (so to speak) wouldn't survive an afternoon…

My first thought was that black-shirted thugs on every corner or not (and I admit I've missed these in China) doesn't alcohol make you do unwise things regardless of the downstream? Like driving your car. It's taken decades to ram home that message…

I imagine he doesn't get to Family bar a lot.…

Language police, on the other hand, can be found on every street corner.

Nah, my experience with my complaint has given me an experience I don't wish to have again. As I said, it's easier to avoid them.

The stats aren't broken down in the way that you'd like, but their annual report for last year shows that of the 17 public reports they released the police got slapped in every one…

What's the stats on that? How many complaints are upheld? How many are "Police acted appropriately?" How many complaints for brown people are upheld?Does it help your complaint if they know the colour of your skin first?
I am well aware…

I was particularly amused by this quote:

"The bar has been popular with Korean students, who have grown up in a culture that combines singing, food, and drinking to excess."

So, pretty much the kiwi drinking culture,…

Understandable, but also an unfortunate enabler of the very behaviour that put them off engaging. The IPCA is quite willing to administratively crack heads, and stories like…

There are too many things wrong with your comment, too many ways this could go…

That's bang on. Sorry my last comment was in reply to Tom, I'm not sure what happened there.

Two friends of mine – a Maori father and son – have a pretty jaundiced view of police priorities in the CBD.

On separate occasions in…

And again, here's an example of how it's really a cultural or social issue and not about law or availability. All this time in China I don't think I've ever lived more…

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. Are you suggesting we need a totalitarian government that happily butchers it own people and lets gangs of xenophobic goons beat up women in the street for being out with a foreigner?

I possibly should have mentioned that…

I could not agree with this more! My personal view is all laws where there is not a clear committment to enforcement should be removed from the statute book.

Ruining people’s livelihoods is a horrible…

No, we don't. We have police, and we have intelligence services. We categorically do not have secret police.

Bollocks it is. If it were a right, you wouldn't have to jump through hoops in order to get one. It's a privilege, allowing you to legally be in control of a lethal weapon. If a driver's licence is a right, then so is…

I dunno about that. Look at the obscene level of force on display for the second student protest in Auckland, which occurred on a Friday afternoon (and was a striking contrast to the inspector and a couple of other…

A society where normal activities are 'privileges' conferred…

Depends on the numbers. We do have secret police here, of several kinds. But I agree, drunken policemen have been amongst the most unpleasant kind of drunk I've ever dealt with.

And what of the potential consequences of failing to follow the law around sale of liquor to minors? Let's not delude ourselves, Keir, the harm is not a one-way street: alcohol is…

Eh. I disagree. Ruining people's livelihoods is a horrible thing to do,…

No, case law, but a decade of case law carries its own weight. An authority that suddenly slapped a heavily punitive punishment on an offender would have the decision appealed to the courts and the courts would soften the penalty…

And Oktoberfest isn't exactly a hotbed of sobriety, yet still seems not to become something out of a Millwall FC match on a good day.

I don’t think anyone is saying that. I’m certainly not.

But I’m the kind of bear of little brain who thinks if…

And let's be clear, this is a really legitimate thing. If you start up a business, the…

Somehow, I think I prefer drunks to secret policemen. Let alone drunk secret policemen.

Sure – which is a vivid contrast with Germany, or at least Potsdam where we were staying. Germany broadly speaking has very liberal laws around the sale of liquor, but I had an interesting chat…

so those are in the legislation, not case law? Interesting

Definitely won't help – we separate the legislature and the judiciary for perfectly good reasons. One unintentional consequence is that the latter unfairly get the stick for the former's shoddy work.

Probably won’t help. The established precedents are so strongly in favour of a right to make a living from selling alcohol that only an explicit alteration to statute will usefully change how these decisions are made. An appeal to the High Court would not support…

I think it's useful, it's a point of comparison. Not perfect, but I don't think you can really put…

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. Are you suggesting…

lack of public drunken aggro is nice

it really is aye. In urban areas the madness of the day complemented by the tranquility of the evenings seems almost diametrically opposed to the goings on in NZ. I recall you making a sound point last year that a lot of drinking…

Absolutely no argument from me there. Just saying the lack of public drunken aggro is nice. But yes, I've heard…

Having worked nights in the City for six or more years Fri, Sat, Sun and Mon – what gave me the shits was the groups of geezer or single aggro dudes who…

Yeah, that's totally fair enough. It's just a bit alarming the way some people seem to approach it.

Word.

Prohibition doesn't work (Saudi Arabia, where booze is totally illegal, has a *higher* rate of alcohol related deaths than New Zealand).

Improving people's life-outlook and…

That. Supermarkets dont have those supervisors running to check every sale of alcohol for nothing-

Well I never!

I worked for a while in the District Licensing Agency – the guys that hand out licences.

What I learnt is this; it is ridiculously easy to get a licence, and very difficult for the authorities to take it away from you.

Shouldn't it be the other way around?…

* Give people a drinking licence, and take it away if they cause enough damage
* 'People should need a licence to drink'

There is one area that might…

name and shame weak judges?

True. More cultural maturity in that area would help us.

I don't think the supermarket idea would work and would inconvenience many people. From my experience teenagers buy…

Amen. I've been saying that for as long as this debate has been going on. We were promised strict enforcement when the age was lowered. Have…

But the people…

A winery employee of my acquaintance has told his friends not to bother asking him for staff-priced…

I was a strong supporter of dropping the drinking age as it was a law that was…

I suspect a lot of people don't, because it's probably laundered beyond all recognition.

Same. That's why I'm not inclined to shovel all the blame on licence holders.

What’s the viaduct like?

We all avoid it, don't we? It's…

The third is subject to conditions of liquor licensing law. The first isn't. The second isn't…

I’m not Brown’s biggest fan – and honestly not sure what the photo op walkabout in today’s Herald was supposed to achieve – but yeah… I’m not sure he’s guilty of vote-grabbing dick-waving here.

That said I’m also not sure The Herald isn’t living…

generally I have been amazed at how mature most young I come across are with regards to alcohol – these kids are not out of control (yes some are and…

I nearly threw up in that public toilet, I tell you.

How were Disaster Radio ?

The whole thing was a bit of a shambles,…

And I don't really see the difference between getting drunk in someone's garage (legal), getting drunk in a hotel room (legal I think) and getting drunk in a private room in a karaoke club (illegal).

Really? His comments are hardly incendiary — remember when John Banks was declaring to all and sundry that he was going to close off Queen Street to traffic at nights? I think…

I saw that article, and thought it was one of the more egregious thousand words of casual racism I'd seen, even in a media that prides itself on that sort of thing. Evil foreign swine getting drunk in darkened rooms! With hookers and blow…

Possibly at the blue-shirted coal-face, but very much less so further up the chain. There was an article in Granny two weeks ago about an Auckland karaoke bar that got snapped by the cops, hiding intoxicated-to-the-point-of-insensibility patrons in…

Whilst Mayor Len Brown takes a high profile stance to micro-manage a non-problem with youths in the central city.

Are increased rates bills arriving in letterboxes…

Emptying a beer into the street is littering :-)

And pouring a poison into a storm drain, rather than the sewerage system…

It's here.

We're mid-table for alcohol consumption in the OECD. It's not the drinking, it's how we're drinking, etc.

Like some cop saying of Ireland: __ 'if [getting shitfaced is] a representation of what they do in their own country they've got big problems over…

Our national tendency to binge was what wrecked the experiment with party pills – particularly when people used BZP…

Some years ago, I was amused by a ChCh Libertarianz member, writing a letter to the Press, blaming 6pm bar closings for NZ’s binge drinking culture. Obviously…

The offence was removed in 1986 – unless you’re under 18, when it is an offence to consume or be intoxicated by alcohol in a public place.

Interestingly …

If you’re drunk in public you should be prosecuted or fined, bar owners say.

They serve…

Quite. How would one legally get home from the pub?

Common misconception. It is not an offence to be intoxicated in public in New Zealand. And I’m actually not sure it should be.

Unless you're causing a public…

I've never been a place where there were so many people steaming drunk on the streets. But oddly, it wasn't threatening at all.