Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Dreaming of a world without evidence

Sacha

Sun, 24 Apr 2011 13:13:15 +1200

Speaking about lack of evidence, professional victim and metero-charlatan Ken Ring wails that he has been hounded out of business and into hiding.

The fear of prosecution for inciting a riot has also silenced him on earthquake predictions.
...

"They said it was like calling out fire in a crowded theatre…

Kyle Matthews

Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:11:25 +1200

I think there are studies showing that cannabis smoking has been a factor in lung disease, to take one example.

And presumably asthma doesn't like it?

Rich Lock

Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:28:58 +1200

Possibly also someone had some dropped on their head once.

'A marajuana bomb!'

Someone post up 'The Orb', stat!

Jeremy Eade

Wed, 20 Apr 2011 22:38:09 +1200

Yes about smoke dangers , but i believe spray and vapourisers are around and are trying to gain in popularity.

Messing with the function of the lungs is dangerous but let's face it exhilarating once mastered, like messing with the liver. On Ciggies, I have heard that cigarettes these days…

BenWilson

Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:21:48 +1200

Smoking anything seems likely to be a little bit harmful – bombarding tissue with large, very hot particles. I notice numerous side effects that couldn't be said to be good. But compared to so many other things we do, it's not high on the list of dangerous killers.

Russell Brown

Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:07:36 +1200

I think you mean *total* absence.

I think there are studies showing that cannabis smoking has been a factor in lung disease, to take one example. Possibly also someone had some dropped on their head once.

Sacha

Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:49:04 +1200

The virtual absence of any recorded incidences of deaths

I think you mean *total* absence.

BenWilson

Wed, 20 Apr 2011 12:01:50 +1200

It is bizarre. I don't like to smoke something that has so little history. It took many decades for the truth about the dangers of tobacco to be widely accepted – the baccy companies still deny it to this day. The virtual absence of any recorded incidences of deaths directly…

Jeremy Eade

Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:59:41 +1200

The point is it's bizzare that this strange new ciggie sprayed with dope aping chemicals is out there freely trading beside the chewing gum and choclate bars , with all the visual associations of dope and an unsoliticited promotion from bob marley yet medical marijuna is banned , a herb…

linger

Wed, 20 Apr 2011 03:16:18 +1200

Chemicals are potentially bad o.k
Um … good luck finding an example of a food (or, anything at the dairy, really) that doesn’t contain any chemicals.
Could you be a little more specific?

Jeremy Eade

Tue, 19 Apr 2011 21:24:52 +1200

The demand for this stuff my way seems huge, honestly i've never seen daries put so much advertising for a new product not bankrolled by corporates on their front counters, uncritiqued chemicals at the dairy, strange times.

Chemicals are potentially bad o.k

Steve Barnes

Thu, 14 Apr 2011 00:04:21 +1200

“they cherry-picked, abused, and tortured evidence to tell stories that fit pre-existing policy preferences.”

Sounds like our esteemed PM

linger

Thu, 14 Apr 2011 00:02:48 +1200

Ethnography is, ideally, about faithfully recording and explaining the viewpoint of the subjects of the investigation. The problem is that if you follow that method, it's difficult to use any external reference frame to criticise anyone.

So I hope it’s more like ethnographers (uncritically) reporting politicians as blaming poor sources,…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:52:02 +1200

Labour are ’wiggy” and not up to much, if they had remained in govt they would have moved into assets sales.
But..
Then on Agenda, on July 14 2008 Mr Mallard reconfirmed that policy: 'I'm happy for things which are not part of the core to be partially floated, at…

DexterX

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:42:56 +1200

Labour are 'wiggy" and not up to much, if they had remained in govt they would have moved into assets sales.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0808/S00124.htm

The Nats are agenda driven and doing things because they can do them and not because those things they are doing are the "best" or optimal outcomes for…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:25:08 +1200

various kinds of evidence

Empirical, anecdotal or contradictory. It all works when you have an agenda.
;-)

Kumara Republic

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:18:33 +1200

It’s like the “nine long years" mantra for muppets.

'9 long years' is often a dead giveaway of a concern troll who never voted for Helen in the first place. But as it stands, the waters are far too muddy to tell between genuine turncoats and real-life trolls, and the…

Islander

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:15:01 +1200

Yup. Grad studs going out with rampant assumptions?

81stcolumn

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:10:52 +1200

However, their use of evidence was hampered by the huge volume of various kinds of evidence and by the unsuitability of much academic research in answering policy questions. Faced with this deluge of inconclusive information, they used evidence to create persuasive policy stories.

Does anyone grasp the irony of ethnographers…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:36:07 +1200

The reason I was "gobsmacked" was that these particular people are good people who usually agree with me (hence "good people") I was just amazed that they would believe these things and more amazed that they thought it was common knowledge. We do have a big problem with the media,…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:12:24 +1200

And, if I had been there…..;), (I probably would have been asked to leave, with my big mouth)
It’s like the “nine long years" mantra for muppets.

Steve Barnes

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:04:39 +1200

I get the impression the are Herald readers.

Islander

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:02:33 +1200

Do so, mate. And permantly switch off their radios!

Steve Barnes

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:56:53 +1200

Not to my knowledge, they seem quite intelligent, if not a bit pub bound and on other matters seem quite informed. I was dumbfounded to be honest. It makes you wonder where they get their information from. I will work on them. ;-)

Islander

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 20:30:44 +1200

O. Berloody> HELL

WHY do people, especially people who call themselves "lifelong Labour supporters" not ACTUALLY EDUCATE – ok ok ok, I'm getting upset here, I promise no more caps, truly – themselves? Are these people you mention Steve B, talkback radio listeners perchance?

Steve Barnes

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 20:24:51 +1200

I think I'll post this here because, well, why not?.
I was talking to some people tonight who said they were lifelong labour supporters but would not be voting for them this time, their reason?
Labour introduced secondary taxation on a second job.
Labour started their term with a surplus…

DexterX

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 20:12:54 +1200

After today's legal aid announcement – and the apparent failure to develop good policy with any rational basis or logical process -"Dreaming of a world without justice" is the new thing – and that dream is coming true for some and will be a nightmare for others.

Andrew E

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:02:39 +1200

Fascinating – thank you very much for the pointer to that.

Untangling those 'systematically asymmetrical relations of power' depends on more people like I/S making use of the OIA, and challenging refusals, IMHO.

Ross Bell

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:08:29 +1200

@ Russell. Try this for a great academic abstract from a paper studying how policy makers use evidence:
Based on participant observation in a team of British policy-making civil servants carried out in 2009, this article examines the use that is made of evidence in making policy. It shows that…

BenWilson

Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:46:19 +1200

ACTs always had this big chance to really go through with the idea of liberty and take a stand on drugs. Private conversations with ACToids indicate quite a lot of sympathy to the idea. But it never seems to make much headway in their publicly stated policy.

I expect that…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 22:46:09 +1200

Yes Nick. If we were to legalise drugs, you know along the lines of ACT policy regarding less interference in the liberty of the individual, would you think it a good thing to put a tax on those drugs or would that go against you principals?.

Nick Kearney

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 22:23:05 +1200

I read an article in some newspaper when Dunne announced this that quoted a guy who actually manufactures (or imports) these "legal highs" and he basically said he would just get the "chemists" to make other legal highs if Dunne banned cannabinomimetics.

It's such bad policy that it really doesn't…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:19:12 +1200

That the same people committed to bombing the shit out of innocent afgani kids are also the ones that seek to controll what we ingest for their own benifits gives some clue as to how screwed up drug laws are.

+ several billion

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:10:22 +1200

There are ISO standards and the like around chemical products, as well as technologies to measure purity.

If parliament was really concerned for the health of drug users, they would require that restricted substances were appropriately certified to contain what it says on the tin.

Fooman

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 18:14:23 +1200

Let me guess... is the Paul Adams mentioned on the NZMA page the same God's Little Rally Driver?

Apparently not.

Kumara Republic

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 17:46:06 +1200

All this legal inconsistency between weed and booze/ciggies continues to irritate me. Maybe they're running out of things to scapegoat?

Or some sort of involvement with Big Tobacco?
Let me guess... is the Paul Adams mentioned on the NZMA page the same God's Little Rally Driver?

Russell Brown

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 17:21:36 +1200

I was thinking the most perverse outcome is that it’s almost as bad in terms of production safety to consumers as the uncontrolled manufacture that illegal drugs suffer from. Better to have fewer, better tested drugs.

The trade in the grey-area chemicals is amazing. Factories in Asia produce them literally…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 17:06:08 +1200

Fooman, you got it. Maybe if Cosmic Corner had the funds to take Dunne on an all expenses paid "awayday", then he’d be more amenable to them.

BenWilson

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:56:50 +1200

Quite possibly. But that can lead to some perverse outcomes.

I was thinking the most perverse outcome is that it's almost as bad in terms of production safety to consumers as the uncontrolled manufacture that illegal drugs suffer from. Better to have fewer, better tested drugs.

Russell Brown

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:52:05 +1200

I wonder if this will be the round-about resolution to the war on drugs: synthetic analoges that replicate the effects of traditional drugs but can’t be banned in a more process oriented, policy-based political culture.

Quite possibly. But that can lead to some perverse outcomes.

One “legal” high has already…

poffa

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:51:38 +1200

It would be interesting to know how much mr Dunne with his superior genes has invested in maintaining the tabacco, alcohol monopoly. The desire to get whacked is part of being human, as much as how you prefer your sex or the colour of your skin.It is hard to find…

Fooman

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:50:09 +1200

I would be interested to know if Peter Dunne has any brewery shares.

Or some sort of involvement with Big Tobacco?

Steve Barnes

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:47:46 +1200

synthetic analoges that replicate the effects of traditional drugs

That are manufactured by big pharmaceutical companies, I can see Key and Joyce loving this.

Danyl Mclauchlan

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:44:42 +1200

I wonder if this will be the round-about resolution to the war on drugs: synthetic analoges that replicate the effects of traditional drugs but can't be banned in a more process oriented, policy-based political culture.

Ross Bell

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:33:37 +1200

@Russell – Julian Buchanan is a smart guy – for Wellington-based folks, he's giving his first public lecture next week – titled "Problem drug use, stigma and exclusion."

While the decision to regulate is a very good (dare I say, a 'common sense' decision), it's gonna take a…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:19:28 +1200

unlike the good old fashioned weed (which is not without side-effects, but you know what they are).

Side effects? What.. what was that... God I'm hungry... what were we talking about again?.

Steve Barnes

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:17:34 +1200

I would be interested to know if Peter Dunne has any brewery shares. For that matter it would be good to know which, if any, of our current crop of professional dole bludgers, politicians, have shares in the pedallers of the legal drug that is alcohol.

BenWilson

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:10:47 +1200

I've tried some of them. I'd concur with most of what the tripme people said. My main concern is that they're really new, so the long term health effects are not really known, unlike the good old fashioned weed (which is not without side-effects, but you know what they are).

Russell Brown

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:41:26 +1200

Peter Dunne, like others of his ilk, need to realise that the War on drugs is actually a war on people, who just happen to take drugs.

There's a guy called Julian Buchanan, just joined VUW, who is very good value on this theme.

Steve Barnes

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:37:06 +1200

"We should consider legalising the production, sale and distribution of drugs. Legalisation does not mean that drugs are good. But we have to see it as a strategy to weaken and break the economic system that allows cartels to make huge profits, which in turn increases their power and capacity…

MikeE

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:29:55 +1200

Ahh outdated laws requiring evidence, as opposed to new, futuristic, forward thinking laws that Dunne suggests based on look and smell.

Guy's a fucking idiot.

Geoff Lealand

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:19:26 +1200

I believe you! I once inhaled a dose of curry powder (by error ) and it wasn't a good experience

Russell Brown

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:16:15 +1200

The PM noted this was coming out and opined it might have an impact on ‘advice’. As opposed, presumably, to policy

Arrggh.

Lyndon Hood

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:10:02 +1200

Just quickly: http://www.pmcsa.org.nz/ on evidence and policy formation.

The PM noted this was coming out and opined it might have an impact on ‘advice’. As opposed, presumably, to policy.

[And the press release]

Public Address

Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:10:02 +1200

Discussion from blog post.