Yes the human enjoyment of dog fighting is a factor. The animal cruelty outweighs it, IMHO.

I think the reduction of withdrawal symptoms is a part of the ritual of smoking, but not even the biggest part. The physical addiction ends after only a few days.…

I'm totally against Kyle's wanting to ban cigarettes for the same reason. To say there is nothing good about cigarettes is wrong. It is for many people a stress relieving ritual, and an excuse to socialize. That's worth something.

By that logic, if there are people who find... I dunno,…

OTOH, perhaps the patriarchy just set things up so the ladies lost again ...

Actually I think I took a few $$ off a big casino/hotel in Reno the week after Burning Man – by the simple expedient of staying in one of their USD45 hotel rooms and not gambling a single cent. The place was actually cheaper than Motel 6.

Heh heh. I did…

Sounds much like many activities, which the people indulging in them seem…

That definitely sounds like pokies to me...

I don't think that pokies have no benefit at all. A lot of people can have a wee flutter on the pokies and enjoy themselves for half an hour and that's it. I know I did once last year, and I haven't touched…

I'm trying to find an argument which links gambling to cigarettes. In theory at least, I would like cigarettes to be made completely illegal, on the basis that they provide no benefits at all, either to the user or others, are addictive, and cause a great deal…

People are killed in cars all the time, but the benefit of having them outweighs that.

I'm trying to find an argument which links gambling to cigarettes. In theory at least, I would like cigarettes to be made completely illegal, on the basis that they provide no benefits at all,…

Don't they auction that kind of thing? Why not – seems like a big waste of money?

I know! Because it had been imported through all the wrong channels there was no way to know it was all authentic and safe to drink etc. I was willing to take that…

But we've gone there before.

I came close to shedding a tear when I had to help destroy a (huge) shipment of illegally imported whiskey, vodka & gin that customs had seized.

Don't they auction that kind of thing? Why not – seems like a big waste of money?

Knowing, as you would with hindsight, that it contributes to 40 or 50 road deaths and innumerable accidents every year.…

No, but it helps. The car manufacturers who have done the best are of course the very ones which have had the most people die in them, since they are the cars which most people…

Sounds soo much like Frogger.

The worst game from my childhood was Gauntlet. I marveled at the cleverness of the idea that you could continue your…

They say 3% of gamblers have a problem.

And in the gaming machine industry, they provide 20% of the revenue. Car manufacturers don't need people to die; pot dealers don't need people to be addicted. Pokie operators kinda do.

Why exactly are the other 97% not allowed their fun because…

i guess that is part of the problem – most communities didn't get to decide. how about we make every outlet go through a full resource consent process to make sure that every community does have a say in this.

Very good idea. Works with booze. And it's better than…

This is a form of making money (for the operators) that is essentially based on psychological deception. If these deceptions weren't built in to the way the machines operate, there would be little or no profit in them.

You mean the buzz of risk taking, the sparkle of the lights,…

I'd leave that to the particular community you are talking about to decide. Personally I'd vote against pokies near me, but if I got outvoted then I'd have to swallow that.

i guess that is part of the problem – most communities didn't get to decide. how about we make…

Yes it would. "How harmed" would also be important to establish. I feel harmed every time I hear gangsta…

It's the same principle. Unless you don't believe in any principles behind public policy, then tell me by what principle you distinguish between vices. I can accept that your principles are totally piecemeal, and that you don't agree with pokies…

As I just said at length, no. The small number who receive harm doesn't outweigh the large number who get net enjoyment.

It would be interesting to tot up the number of people who feel harmed by the proliferation of pokies in poor suburbs and compare that to the number…

These things have their harms as an unwanted byproduct…

As I just said at length, no. The small number who receive harm doesn't outweigh the large number who get net…

Russell, I got that you don't like pokies. I don't either. What I don't get is why you think it's so different from other vices which you clearly do not have a problem with.

I am with you Ben about no vice being especially better or worse than another, and…

Russell, I got that you don't like pokies. I don't either. What I don't get is why you think it's so different from other vices which you clearly do not have a problem with. So far the only argument you have presented is that they target the poor.

And I…

So designing a pokie machine to be psychologically addictive, knowing that some relatively set proportion of it's users will be directly harmed by that designed addictiveness is, therefore, wrong?

That's an interesting perspective Tim, I hadn't thought about it from the creation/provision of the machine before.

Presumably we could still…

I take the position that if something you do harms other people directly, then it's wrong.

So designing a pokie machine to be psychologically addictive, knowing that some relatively set proportion of it's users will be directly harmed by that designed addictiveness is, therefore, wrong?

Fine, let's keep reducing the…

All prohibition does is make criminals of addicts and those who are not addicted, but derive fun from the activity.…

The world shouldn't revolve around junkies. A caring world will help them out, within reason. But for god's sake let people who aren't junkies, the majority, get on with their shit.

I presume that's not your argument.

I can see a valid argument that things that are addictive shouldn't be…

Yeah, but that booze probably cost them only $1-2. Why do they give away the free drinks? Because they want to keep you there gambling ...

Actually we paid for the alcohol. I'm not sure someone who bets one nickel at a time on the blackjack machine is enough of…

Whereas the reality looks more like an abattoir. But I'm not able to deny middle Auckland its night out at Sky City,however little it appeals to me. I just despise the low-rent versions that sprout like corner dairies where the poor people live.

I'd be guessing that you are more…

Another point* is that these parasites use every Applied Psychology trick in the book to make the punter think he's got a chance. They are clinical about it.

I just groan when I see my friends claiming they were "so close" to winning on the scratchies.

Yeah. Like there is…

The only way the Casino can lose is if not enough punters come in

Actually I think I took a few $$ off a big casino/hotel in Reno the week after Burning Man – by the simple expedient of staying in one of their USD45 hotel rooms and not gambling…

left with some change and about $10 of alcohol inside me

Yeah, but that booze probably cost them only $1-2. Why do they give away the free drinks? Because they want to keep you there gambling ....

The only way the Casino can lose is if not enough punters come in.

After 14 years, North Carolina has legislated a sinking lid — to zero — on pokies. The problems there have been such that the state Senate has passed such a measure five times since 2000 — but each time the House, under the direction of…

I'm pretty sure they'd take my bet, under similar circumstances. ;)

Last year I went to a casino in Niagara Falls, with the idea of seeing how much fun I could have for $20 Canadian. The cheapest table I could find had a $5 minimum bet, and I figured I…

This was famously proved by a UK reality TV show in which a Brit sold all his worldly goods and went to Vegas to put it all down on Black. No casino would take it.

I'm pretty sure they'd take my bet, under similar circumstances. ;)

Another point* is that…

Remember how we were sold the idea of casino's in NZ? Monte Carlo comes downunder! The international jet set were going to beat a path to our door, and everyone would look so debonair in their pearls or black tuxedo's ...

Whereas the reality looks more like an abattoir. But…

I'm all for sensible harm reduction measures – making a pokie machine less profitable per square foot than a pool table would seem to be reasonable.

If anyone suggests charging me $20 for a game of pool (which is about what it would take) then I'm organising my own revolution.

The number of machines doubled between 1999 and 2003, when the Gambling Act 2003 was passed. Since then, there's been a gradual decline in numbers.

The table for expenditure on non-casino pokies is even more striking.

That continued…

Which I'm trying not to do. Personally, like I said, I think pokies suck. Because a large proportion of NZ pubs are pokie parlours, that cuts down on the number of places I might want to go for a…

So you walk in, you buy chips with money. These may be gambled for the usual loss or…

What percentage of the NZ population gamble at all frequently? I don't believe that myself and most of my friends are part of some freak statistical outlier that hardly ever gamble? So what makes us different – it isn't randomness – I think it just comes back to the self-respect…

My brother was actually on one of those 'committees' that aportion the 'proceeds' to 'community groups' a few years back. He and his mates formed their own club, and sought funding for what was essentially a 3 day 'sports fishing trip' up North. Hired Boats and accommodation all to be…

The house always wins down at the pub selling beer too. And fags. For every addiction, the house wins.

I don't think it's a matter of 'pure individual responsibility'. It's much like arguments to ban this drug…

i've also seen the "donation" process of a pokie trust. fair & transparent it is…

Can't say I agree with any of the harm minimization arguments. Everyone's got their drug. For some poor saps it's gambling. Can't understand it, but can't understand BZP either.

In a world of pure individual responsibility I might agree with you Ben, but surely society's interest also lies with the…

I currently have an addiction to online blog commenting, which my dealer (whose identity is carefully hidden, let's just call him…

I'd mandate compulsory visible daylight, and clock displays on machines at eye-level.

Don't know much about casinos, but I'll bet that clocks anywhere are a no-no, just as they are in shopping malls. And for a similar reason.

I'd mandate compulsory visible daylight, and clock displays on machines at eye-level.

If I remember correctly all pokie machines would require a card to operate, similar to the "loyalty" card systems operating in casinos…

It seems that the rate of cigarette smoking amongst young New Zealanders has increased. One theory is that the kids don't like the man telling them not to smoke, so they're sticking it to the man by lighting up.

Herald report seems to suggest a…

]]> Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:37:20 +1300 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-dopamine-psychosis-and-other-great/?p=33171#post33171 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-dopamine-psychosis-and-other-great/?p=33171#post33171

It is not inconcievable to make pokies less addictive. They contain ROMs which I presume to be progammable ?

Ah. But then they wouldn't be so profitable ...

I once had a go at Peter Dunne, that…

I don't believe that myself and most of my friends are part of some freak statistical outlier that hardly ever gamble? So what makes us different – it isn't randomness – I think it just comes back to the self-respect thing.

It's somewhat like Nigerian Scam/Spam. You don't need a…

a) I failed to see what was sociable about them: addict turns up addict fixates on machine plays for several hours, drinks little goes home, presumably to dream about tomorrows (non)winnings.

b) The…

Sure. Call me when you're done with that ...

I'm not saying it's quick or easy, but it's the only lasting solution.

The US prohibits gambliing in most states – organised crime fills the gaps (as it did in the UK before off course horserace betting was legalised).

What percentage…

but to build a society where people have a better level of self-respect and personal resilience

Are you meaning that people should just be able to use self-restraint with respect to staying away from pokie machines?
Basic behaviourism suggests that the variable ratio schedule used by the machine gives the…

I think UK pubs are/were allowed one or two pokies (or fruit machines as they call them) with a fairly small stake/win (coins, not notes). That would seem…

Yes, dopamine's bad. It should be confiscated from anyone in possesion of any.

Ha ha.

But seriously, I recall getting really pissed off once hearing a Tainui representative rave on about how terrible marijuana was and how much Tainui should be allowed to open a casino (full of pokies, no…

It's teh dopamine.

Yes, dopamine's bad. It should be confiscated from anyone in possesion of any.

Oh. Wow.

RB answered first, and stole my thunder, but I would also add that Pokies are addictive, and have hooked a lot more ppl than the Horse Racing (equally moronic) ever did.

It's teh dopamine.

Oh come on... catchy tune, but I don't think you need a Ph.D. in textual analysis to get the subtext. We care, they don't; we love all the colours of the rainbow, and they don't. Gag...

What else is a campaign song supposed to do but strike a positive position…

Once upon a time drunken munters seldom lasted past 1am down at the top 40 nightclub, now these pests hang around at clubs all night, fall over, getting in the way and generally disturbing the more refined psychoactive experiences of an aghast dedicated late night crew.

A few times a…

So let’s look at their record. They never cut taxes on the lowest income earners. They never cut taxes on savings. They never cut taxes on the business sector. They did cut taxes on the dead in a fit of emotional empathy!

Waiting for Craig to…

24 hour off-licences

Where?! The last time I tried to buy a bottle of wine on the way to a party, everything had closed at 11pm.

a wee fistful of party pills laced with STFU.

You reckon we could get Jacqui Dean calling for a ban on STFU? That would be legendary.

If National comes up with anything with lyrics that asinine and condescending...

Asinine and condescending billboards okay, though?

I missed the verse that said that. Is it only on the special edition CD?

Oh come on... catchy tune, but I don't think you need a Ph.D. in textual analysis to get the subtext. We care, they don't; we love all the colours of the rainbow, and they don't.…

Unless, of course, the money is actually going to people running complex frauds involving fake invoices and stuff

Or, as I heard of one prominent Auckland politician and publican doing, simply making the benefiting charity be his political organisation. I guess that could be called taking a cavalier attitude to…

Got kids?

Oh why won't somebody think of the children! (TM)

They didn't clearly distinguish between one company behaving unethically and others (e.g. Stargate) who were much more sensible.

Something I pointed out in my submission on the BZP bill is that there…

You know something, it's not only protestors who need to get off their moral superiority trips, and treating people who don't think like them as something slightly less than human.

I missed the verse that said that. Is it only on the special edition CD?

Why does there need to be? I think those pokie bars full of braindead morons suck, but there's a simple answer – don't go to them. People should be free to do what they want without there having to be a "community benefit".

Got kids? A lot of those people…

that Chris Knox Labour ditty – sounds like he's singing "its a BITTER way with Labour..." he he he. What will National top that with?

If National comes up with anything with lyrics that asinine and condescending, there's going to be a few Nats campaign folk wishing that they had…

Like every other English speaking society it is impossible for us to have a sensible debate about drug policy.

I think one reason for that is that it's all so fscked up at the United Nations level. If you don't go hard and ban everything that everyone else is banning…

...drunken munters seldom lasted past 1am down at the top 40 nightclub, now these pests hang around at clubs all night, fall over, getting in the way and generally disturbing the more refined psychoactive experiences of an aghast dedicated late night crew.

Change the club you go to? Or move…

Now when you can’t remember how many houses you’ve got, and which one you live in, $20 or $30 a week may seem pretty unimportant. For a lot of Kiwi families it’s crucial.

Heh, that's the Cullen that was MIA last election. I am sure talk of moving him aside…

It seems that the rate of cigarette smoking amongst young New Zealanders has increased. One theory is that the kids don't like the man telling them not to…

One of the daft things is that if…

I'm pretty sure I have the above correct, but if anyone knows different, please feel free to say so.