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		<title>Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Done like a dinner</title>
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		<description><![CDATA[A talking shop where we put the questions and our community illuminates the issues.]]></description>
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			<copyright>Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address</copyright>
			

		
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				<title>Brent Jackson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=361355#post361355</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=361355#post361355</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						And still we (as a nation) pay through the nose for the <a href="http://sciblogs.co.nz/hot-topic/2016/05/24/tiwai-point-uncertainty-stalls-nz-renewables/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">corporate welfare</a> that is the Tiwai Point aluminium smelter.
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				<pubDate>Tue, 24 May 2016 15:04:00 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Nora Leggs</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295732#post295732</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295732#post295732</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Today's find...  timely.   Very cheap, or very expensive?
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				<pubDate>Wed, 18 Sep 2013 18:21:34 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295724#post295724</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295724#post295724</guid>
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						<p>One of the comments is priceless:</p><p><q>Wow, a whole hundred milliwatts? I could power my cell phone!</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:26:59 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>James Butler</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295721#post295721</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295721#post295721</guid>
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						<p><q>This would be a fission reactor.</q></p><p>No, Rich has it <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">right</a>.</p><p>ETA: oh ok, partially.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:22:49 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295720#post295720</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295720#post295720</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						The amount of fission and fusion would depend on the design of the physics package, but a modern design would have quite a lot of fusion. I'm sure it could be optimized.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:22:49 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Lilith __</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295719#post295719</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295719#post295719</guid>
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						<p><q>a better design for a 100MW fusion reactor</q></p><p>This would be a <em>fission</em> reactor.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:17:42 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295718#post295718</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295718#post295718</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Also, I have a better design for a 100MW fusion reactor.</p><p>&ndash; First, drill a deep hole. 1km x 1m^2 should suffice.<br />&ndash; Fill the hole with water (sea water will do).<br />&ndash; Into the hole drop a small (1kT) thermonuclear bomb every 10 hours or so. Trigger it at…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:16:05 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295711#post295711</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295711#post295711</guid>
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						<p>Surely just the steam turbine (or other heat/electricity conversion gear) for a 100MW (I am very unconvinced by a "tech" site that doesn't know the difference between milli and mega, but assume the latter) is going to be bigger than a "trailer".</p><p>Also, something that is producing 100MW of energetic…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:44:33 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295600#post295600</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295600#post295600</guid>
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						How real is this?
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				<pubDate>Wed, 18 Sep 2013 11:32:40 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Paul Campbell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295563#post295563</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=295563#post295563</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						So you're planning on selling your power company. ..... today would be a bad time for a <a href="http://www.dvice.com/2013-2-22/lockheeds-skunk-works-promises-fusion-power-four-years" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Lockheed skunkworks project to announce their cheap fusion project</a>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 17 Sep 2013 20:58:04 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=284545#post284545</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=284545#post284545</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						I'm talking deliberately about the second hand market here, too, because that is the market that matters when it comes to trends with vehicles. In that they are entirely different to computers. Most cars on the road are second hand. If electric vehicles are unable to penetrate the second hand…
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				<pubDate>Sat, 13 Apr 2013 10:26:04 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=284528#post284528</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=284528#post284528</guid>
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						<p><q>Except cars are much more expensive than the engine.</q></p><p>As with a laptop, you might find the car and the detachable engine costs more than two comparable cars without such convenience. Most of the parts in a laptop cost a lot more, and simply won't deliver you anywhere near the…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 12 Apr 2013 19:28:07 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=284511#post284511</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=284511#post284511</guid>
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						<p>Except cars are much more expensive than the engine.</p><p>I don't own a desktop and laptop computer, I own a laptop and occasionally connect it to screen and keyboard and mouse when I want. The same principle should be able to be applied with good design.</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 12 Apr 2013 16:53:08 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=284239#post284239</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=284239#post284239</guid>
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						<q>I wonder if someone will develop a model where the petrol engine is a module that can come in out of the car &ndash; leaving a cavity like the boot. Would be fairly heavy to get out I guess, but it really doesn't make sense to haul around the engine…</q>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:00:24 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=284237#post284237</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=284237#post284237</guid>
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						<q>Sacha: I think there’s a lot of resentment outside of Auckland about all the money being spent there to mitigate simple geography you can’t really do much about – you already have motorways up the wazoo – Dunedin’s been waiting 30 years now for them to simply finish building the…</q>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:28:34 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Hebe</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283988#post283988</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283988#post283988</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						I can't tell you the specifics of the 14K  figure (mainly because I don't understand the technical details and it was a verbal price). It included a cold-tolerant solar hot water system, an electric  back-up, a large cylinder to be installed in a tight space, and  what seems to me…
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				<pubDate>Mon, 08 Apr 2013 15:31:05 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Chris Waugh</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283930#post283930</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283930#post283930</guid>
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						<p><q>You may also need a tempering valve on the output of the whole setup – normally a gas unit doesn’t need this, as it is limited to a maximum output of 50 degrees C.</q></p><p>If I'm interpreting that correctly, then the tempering unit is highly recommended. The sun can get…</p>
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				<pubDate>Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:16:09 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>John Farrell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283924#post283924</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283924#post283924</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						And, as I forgot to add earlier, you will need a water tank of some sort, to store your preheated water. A lot of solar units use a 300l tank. You may also need a tempering valve on the output of the whole setup &ndash; normally a gas unit doesn't…
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				<pubDate>Sun, 07 Apr 2013 12:05:44 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>John Farrell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283903#post283903</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283903#post283903</guid>
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						Yes, you can. But you need to ensure the gas unit has a heat tolerant input. Some don't.
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				<pubDate>Sat, 06 Apr 2013 20:28:29 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283900#post283900</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283900#post283900</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Can you use solar hot water to pre-feed a Rinnai-type instant gas system?
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				<pubDate>Sat, 06 Apr 2013 19:10:33 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283895#post283895</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283895#post283895</guid>
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						<p><q> So not at all surprised at $14,000 for a full install these days.</q></p><p>Why do you think prices would have gone up?</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 06 Apr 2013 17:53:08 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Brent Jackson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283889#post283889</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283889#post283889</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Ours cost $6000 back in 2004.  That's 2 solar panels with glycol running through them (which makes the system frost tolerant down to -18dC), and a 300L Stainless Steel cylinder (doesn't look like they've changed much : <a href="http://www.edwards.com.au/files/brochures/LX%20Series%202%20Technical%20Sheet.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">LX305</a>.  It included installation fees, the crane to get it on the roof,…
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				<pubDate>Sat, 06 Apr 2013 16:22:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283875#post283875</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283875#post283875</guid>
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						<p><q>ummm... wow....</p><p>Solar water heating alone?!</q></p><p>I'd be amazed if that's what Hebe meant. I presumed she was talking about a PV array.</p><p>As for solar water alone, there's a real range of prices. A small DIY with evacuated glass tubes and  little by way of guarantees is well under…</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 06 Apr 2013 09:26:11 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283874#post283874</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283874#post283874</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						The godzone  “bach” model consists of a 100 m coil of 12mm alkathene placed on the roof and connected to the shower mixing valve (to avoid getting scalded). Less than $200. If you add in some storage (an old insulated hot water cylinder) and a thermo syphon (bits of pipe…
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				<pubDate>Sat, 06 Apr 2013 07:24:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283873#post283873</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283873#post283873</guid>
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						<p>Sorry about that . Bjorn Lomborg's opinion piece is being well received by environmentalists around the globe, with only minor criticisms. Here is a link :-</p><p><a href="http://www.ioannes.com/2013/04/01/the-joy-of-global-warming/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://www.ioannes.com/2013/04/01/the-joy-of-global-warming/</a></p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 06 Apr 2013 07:19:40 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Chris Waugh</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283868#post283868</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283868#post283868</guid>
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						<p><q>$14,000</q></p><p>ummm... wow....</p><p>Solar water heating alone?!</p><p>What we got was a very simple cylinder with an array of pipes angled to catch the sun and warm the water up, connected to the water supply with hoses running down to connect with the shower head. We could've paid a little…</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 06 Apr 2013 01:01:19 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Hebe</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283867#post283867</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283867#post283867</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						For a small house  in Christchurch we are looking at at least $14,000 for solar.
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 23:46:39 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283857#post283857</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283857#post283857</guid>
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						<p>There are a few about; not really general purpose though:-<br /><a href="http://www.hurricaneproducts.co.nz/electric-vehicles.html?gclid=CMrZ9fnPsrYCFQQcpQodAXYAsQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://www.hurricaneproducts.co.nz/electric-vehicles.html?gclid=CMrZ9fnPsrYCFQQcpQodAXYAsQ</a></p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:52:34 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Roger Lacey</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283850#post283850</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283850#post283850</guid>
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						<p>For those interested in doing it themselves, the latest edition of The Shed magazine has a lot of information about converting a car to battery power. <a href="http://www.theshedmag.co.nz" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://www.theshedmag.co.nz</a>. <br />Disclaimer: Before I conveniently forget, I write for the magazine.</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:54:32 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283846#post283846</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283846#post283846</guid>
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						<p>Agricultural waste is carbon emissions neutral surely.<br />But  Bjorn's emphasis seems to be less on carbon emissions at this stage , and more on sustainable energy futures. It is a much longer term view; we are always going to require vast amounts of energy, regardless of climate , and fossil…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 14:43:17 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Chris Waugh</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283844#post283844</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283844#post283844</guid>
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						<p><q>Bjorn Lomborg provides a perspective</q></p><p>And a couple of pics to match his comments on China.</p><p>PV and coal (and that power station is expanding, dammit). He seems to think it’s either renewable or fossil fuel, but China’s doing renewable, fossil fuel and nuclear all at the same time, keeping…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 13:59:51 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Chris Waugh</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283843#post283843</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283843#post283843</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						I'm confused by the comments on the cost of solar water heating. We installed one out here in the village and I remember it costing around 1000 yuan, about NZ$200. Still, our calculation had nothing to do with economics and everything to do with the convenience of showering at home…
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 13:54:04 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Steve Barnes</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283840#post283840</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283840#post283840</guid>
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						<p>I have just installed my solar power system.<br />2kw of Panels @48volts<br />60amp MPPT solar controller<br />200 a/h Lithium Iron Sulphide Yttrium Batteries @ 48 volts.<br />48 volt 4Kw inverter/charger<br />5 Kva diesel generator for that extra bit of whoomph (9 Kw of usable power)<br />All up around $17,000<br />This…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 13:16:09 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283839#post283839</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283839#post283839</guid>
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						<p>Should plug-in hybrid electric vehicles using diesel as a secondary fuel become available, they too will be eligible for the exemption.<br />So your Volvo plug-in hybrid  such as  the V60 qualifies   for the exemption.</p><p><a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/volvo/9966686/Volvo-V60-Plug-in-Hybrid-review.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/volvo/9966686/Volvo-V60-Plug-in-Hybrid-review.html</a></p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 13:09:35 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283837#post283837</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283837#post283837</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>The LTA says they don't exist so are not considered (!)</p><p>What happens if you have one is that energy you generate with petrol is taxed and energy from the grid isn't. So you get a partial subsidy. </p><p>To "fairly" tax one would be hard and involve having the cars…</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 13:02:05 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Paul Campbell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283836#post283836</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283836#post283836</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						excellent &ndash; I wonder if it also applies to the electric part of dual fuel cars like a plug in Prius
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:56:00 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283835#post283835</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283835#post283835</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q> with co-operation you only get winners.</q><br />How do you see that working with say the likes of Fonterra one of our biggest cooperatives?</p><p>A cooperative monopoly that ruthlessly stifles all competition.  So , all good then.</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:55:14 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283834#post283834</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283834#post283834</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<a href="http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/Land/RUC-exemption-for-light-electric-vehicles-2009/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Light electric vehicles are exempt from RUC</a> <a href="http://legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2012/0140/latest/DLM4503613.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">until 2020</a> at least. That's a reasonable subsidy.
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:40:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Steve Barnes</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283832#post283832</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283832#post283832</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>My bright idea though involves the govt getting energy companies to work together rather than to compete –</q></p><p>With competition you get winners and losers, with co-operation you only get winners.<br />This is something the current Government would have a big problem with, they need the losers to piss on.</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:03:33 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283831#post283831</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283831#post283831</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						No road user charges  on electric cars until 2020 in Godzone.
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:01:57 +1300</pubDate>
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			<item>
				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283829#post283829</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283829#post283829</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						At $80,000 + ,  the Chevy Volt then is not what you are looking for, even though it can be purely plug-in , up to a point.
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 11:58:06 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Paul Campbell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283828#post283828</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283828#post283828</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Well I live in a hill in Dunedin, in my (old model) Prius I can drive down town without turning on the petrol motor &ndash; by the time I get there the battery is full to overflowing (just from the braking) and I have about enough of a charge to…
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 11:44:26 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283827#post283827</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283827#post283827</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Heh. For me the environmental factor is secondary to cost. Electric should be cheaper to own, because it's cheaper to run, and fuel costs far outweigh capital costs in cars in the price range I'm prepared to pay until the day I become a millionaire. But currently, except for the…
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 11:40:44 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283826#post283826</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283826#post283826</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>When it came time to retire the car we'd been driving for 13 years we looked at the various electric option and decided against them. They are expensive, but more important is their cost of manufacture makes the environmental equation very dubious.</p><p>At this stage I still think it's a…</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 11:25:20 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283825#post283825</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283825#post283825</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>My understanding from research a few years back was that plug-in converted Priuses got a reliable 75km/liter for regular commuter use. </q></p><p>Note: The electricity costs were not included in this calculation. For comparison, the current Prius Plug-in, that was produced (finally) in 2012 claims electric-only efficiency of around 61km/l of…</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 11:03:35 +1300</pubDate>
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			<item>
				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283824#post283824</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283824#post283824</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>…when were we promised a power grid for life?</q></p><p>Plug-in doesn't have to be grid connected. Plug into your windmill.</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:54:27 +1300</pubDate>
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			<item>
				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283823#post283823</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283823#post283823</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>My understanding from research a few years back was that plug-in converted Priuses got a reliable 75km/liter for regular commuter use. That kicks any petrol vehicle's arse. But the stock Prius was somewhere around 20km/liter, which was not exceptional at all. </p><p>It breaks down if you're doing long distances, but…</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:48:35 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283822#post283822</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283822#post283822</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><strong>power play...</strong><br /><q>I insist that my first electric car is a <strong>plug-in. </strong><br />That’s just basic to the whole idea of fuel efficiency in electric cars.</q><br />Oh? <br />...when were we promised a power grid for life?</p><p>;-  )</p><p>...and it's not like 'we'* haven't [[http://watchblogaotearoa.blogspot.co.nz/2012/10/who-owns-south-island-power-grid.html|sold (or long term leased) bits…</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:46:18 +1300</pubDate>
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			<item>
				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283821#post283821</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283821#post283821</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Possibly because in the majority of the target market locations 70% of the electricity was NOT coming from renewables. Godzone is exceptional.</q></p><p>Perhaps not, but the efficiency is still far greater in a plug-in, even if coal is being burned to charge it up. A coal fired power plant is…</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:37:26 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Stephen R</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283820#post283820</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283820#post283820</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						We own a boring (reliable) Toyota Corolla 1600 hatchback. Thinking of getting  a Prius, we hired one for a week last time we went to Christchurch. I kept track of the fuel use and distance travelled and decided that it was actually comparable to the Corolla for fuel efficiency per…
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:23:28 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Greg Dawson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283819#post283819</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283819#post283819</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Is there a way to do spoiler tags on system?</p><p>Would be nice to collapse copy-paste chunks.</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:15:35 +1300</pubDate>
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			<item>
				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283818#post283818</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283818#post283818</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>. Why, oh why did Toyota not make this a standard feature?</q><br />Possibly because in the majority of the target market locations  70% of the electricity was NOT coming from renewables. Godzone is exceptional.</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:02:44 +1300</pubDate>
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			<item>
				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283817#post283817</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283817#post283817</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>We’re also keen to get an electric car, but the price point for those seem way too far above break even point at the moment. We’ve never been early adopters, so we’ll bide our time on that one for now.</q></p><p>Yup, early adopters are righteous, but it's not usually a…</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 09:56:03 +1300</pubDate>
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			<item>
				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283816#post283816</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283816#post283816</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						When a registered business does the same  sums , it can claim the interest and the depreciation as expenses, reducing taxable profit and thus taxation, while enjoying the reduced cash outgoing on energy expenses. It can  make economic sense.
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 09:39:07 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Paul Campbell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283815#post283815</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283815#post283815</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<q>Before we put in our Solar Hot Water I did the sums and found that it would never pay for itself.  We would be better off financially, by investing the money that the Solar would cost, and using the income from that to pay for electricity (and have a bit…</q>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 09:33:53 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283814#post283814</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283814#post283814</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><strong>Breakfast in the ruins…</strong><br /><q> inspite of it all, National and John Key <br />look likely to get a third term. </q><br />Noooooo, say it ain’t so…<br /><em><fug sets in></em></p><p>Go wash your mouth out!<br /><em><angrily, he lashes out></em></p><p>Who can stop them, their Everyman appeal works somehow…<br /><em><resignation washes back in></em></p><p>Oh! Phew! I see what you were saying…<br />1:…</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 07:44:47 +1300</pubDate>
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			<item>
				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283813#post283813</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283813#post283813</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>. As long as renew­ables are not ready, we are spend­ing vast sums of money on tiny cuts in CO2. Instead, we should focus on invest­ing dra­mat­i­cally more in R&amp;D into green energy over the next 20–40 years.</p><p>The solu­tion is not to make fos­sil fuels so expen­sive that nobody wants…</q></p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 07:44:39 +1300</pubDate>
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			<item>
				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283812#post283812</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283812#post283812</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Bjorn Lomborg provides a perspective on where we are currently at with renewables:</p><p>GLOBAL warm­ing is a prob­lem for the future but a ben­e­fit now. Lots of peo­ple like to point out that global warm­ing means more deaths from heat­waves, but they for­get that fewer die from cold. In the…</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 07:39:42 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>DexterX</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283811#post283811</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283811#post283811</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						The mystery is that, inspite of it all, National and John Key look likely to get a third term.
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 07:23:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Brent Jackson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283810#post283810</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283810#post283810</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Russell wrote:<br /><q>But we had to let go of solar water heating – it was just such a big investment that would take a long while to pay off.</q><br />Ben Wilson asked :<br /><q>How much, how long? How does it compare to money in a term deposit? Or even the…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2013 02:44:50 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ross Mason</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283805#post283805</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283805#post283805</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Another question is why, back in 1971, the government built and owned the dam and the aluminium company the smelter? </q></p><p>Check out these links i posted:<br /><a href="http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?i=50#replies" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?i=50#replies</a></p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 22:28:27 +1300</pubDate>
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			<item>
				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283802#post283802</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283802#post283802</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						I don't think the government has any special immunity: both the Companies Act and the Securities Act bind the Crown. I don't believe the formal prospectus has been issued, but when it does there will probably be some sort of clause indicating that the government may have undisclosed knowledge or…
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 20:32:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Gareth Ward</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283801#post283801</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283801#post283801</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Without having looked too closely at the economics, I agree with you &ndash; I wouldn't subsidise the smelter to any huge degree. It should be left to fail if it can't land a commercial &ndash; not political &ndash; deal with Meridian.  But to be honest, that kinda feels like where…
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 19:51:57 +1300</pubDate>
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			<item>
				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283796#post283796</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283796#post283796</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Another question is why, back in 1971, the government built and owned the dam and the aluminium company the smelter? Things might have worked better if they'd had the same ownership (either both government or both aluminum company).
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:18:57 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283795#post283795</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283795#post283795</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q> Bart’s argument about a conflict of interest</q></p><p>Essentially one shareholder is inflating the value of the company shortly before planning to sell it.</p><p>My point is simply that if the govt were say one of the many finance companies we've seen in recent times and said finance company was doing…</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:17:51 +1300</pubDate>
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			<item>
				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283794#post283794</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283794#post283794</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Yes, I don't quite follow Bart's argument about a conflict of interest &ndash; is it a <em>reductio ad absurdum</em> to show that Meridian is not, in fact, a "real" company? Or that the government is not a "real" shareholder? </p><p>I think that's probably true, but what's really odd is to…</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:07:01 +1300</pubDate>
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			<item>
				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283793#post283793</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283793#post283793</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q> such a large part of our national economy</q></p><p>Um really? Yes it's a big industry and it does employ a number of folk in southland which is very important. But Rio Tinto get very very cheap electricity as it is. And we don't get many export dollars for aluminium, note…</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:05:42 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Gareth Ward</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283792#post283792</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283792#post283792</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>I'm not hopeful, though.</q></p><p>Yes I'm having to fight my own pessimism here!</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:55:17 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Gareth Ward</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283791#post283791</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283791#post283791</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						But Bart my point is the Govt has to get involved REGARDLESS of their ownership of Meridian.  Even if Meridian had already been sold off the Govt should be assessing short term subsidies for such a large part of our national economy.  The loss of Tiwai is more about foreign…
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:54:28 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283790#post283790</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283790#post283790</guid>
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						<p><q>I don’t follow sorry Ben – are we saying the negotiation is valid but they haven’t done a good job of it? How do we know?</q></p><p>Well, you do have a point. Most of the deals Key does are secret, so it's too early to say if it's been done…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:52:06 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283789#post283789</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283789#post283789</guid>
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						<p><q>proof of the “in order to…” bit</q></p><p>Yup and that would keep lawyers busy for a while &ndash; meanwhile if Meridian was a "real" company it would either reside at the bottom of the shharemarket or be suspended fro the duration. It simply is a very dodgy piece of business…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:44:24 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Gareth Ward</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283788#post283788</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283788#post283788</guid>
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						I don't follow sorry Ben &ndash; are we saying the negotiation is valid but they haven't done a good job of it?  How do we know?  All I've seen is a loose statement from Key that the Govt would have provided short-term subsidies to the smelter to keep it open…
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:43:42 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283787#post283787</link>
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						<p><q> They would be negligent if they didn’t…</q></p><p>Of course. But the Government is not powerless before such threats. They have a huge power and resources at the negotiating table. It would be equally negligent for them not to use those. It's not like the smelter becomes a vacant lot if…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:31:40 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Gareth Ward</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283786#post283786</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283786#post283786</guid>
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						I'll put it this way &ndash; if Rio Tinto was threatening to leave for some other reason (or if the power supplier was privately owned) I would expect the Govt to assess implications and possibly open negotiations if they could see a deal that would make net sense to the…
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:15:19 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283785#post283785</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283785#post283785</guid>
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						<p><q>this is about as far from pure market forces as you can get.</q></p><p>If the government were a big business that owned Meridian, a very viable option here would simply be shrugging at Tiwai Point, hoping they do decide to leave, and then buying the place on the cheap, thus…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:15:14 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Gareth Ward</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283784#post283784</link>
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						<p><q>Said shareholder then created a subsidy to a major client of Meridian in order to increase the book value (or share value) of Meridian (which they plan to sell).</q></p><p>I'd need to see proof of the "in order to..." bit.  Because the alternative view is they entered negotations for a…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:12:21 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283781#post283781</link>
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						<p><q> but what exactly has the Government done wrong here?</q></p><p>The govt is the shareholder of record for Meridian. Said shareholder then created a subsidy to a major client of Meridian in order to increase the book value (or share value) of Meridian (which they plan to sell).</p><p>If this was…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:57:47 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Gareth Ward</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283770#post283770</link>
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						<p>I understand this may not be popular, but what exactly has the Government done wrong here?  What should they have done as the alternative?</p><p>As far as I've seen, Meridian have independently held a <em>commercial</em> negotiation with their client which has, at this stage, failed.  The Government have then, in…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 13:51:21 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283763#post283763</link>
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						<p>In general, but:<br />&ndash; without Tiwai Point and with transmission upgrades, NZ would be free from coal fired generation and within reach of 100% renewable electricity (through more wind and a bit more hydro/pumped storage allowing the gas-fired generators to be decomissioned)<br />&ndash; the dominant consumer use of power in…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:51:24 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Angus Robertson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283759#post283759</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283759#post283759</guid>
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						<p>Some climate change considerations in play. </p><p>A &ndash; To produce aluminium from bauxite the most climate friendly way is a modern plant powered by nearby non-emitting generation &ndash; for example: Tiwai Point.   </p><p>B &ndash; Lowering the cost of power to a western consumer society has in a climate change context…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:37:42 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>JacksonP</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283751#post283751</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283751#post283751</guid>
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						<p><q>This won't be done in a single stretch, I hope to take an extended break this June and make a bunch of contributions to Public Address.</q></p><p>Look forward to more when you have time David.  Along with many other Christchurch people who have to triumph over adversity on a daily…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:04:48 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Russell Brown</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283748#post283748</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283748#post283748</guid>
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						<p><q> (incidentally, great work, Russell, on writing such an elegant post on a complicated subject).</q></p><p>I am gratified that a post containing the phrases "No shit, Sherlock" and "ass on a plate" can be considered elegant.</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 11:24:48 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lilith __</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283745#post283745</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283745#post283745</guid>
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						<p><q>We will wait patiently. No rush just know that we do miss your contributions</q></p><p>thirded.</p><p>And so pleased to hear you house is progressing well, David.</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 11:22:37 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>ChrisW</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283730#post283730</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283730#post283730</guid>
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						<p><q>If anyone's interested, we had some good news in our household last week, including the granting of a Code Compliance Certificate for the work I've done on repairing the house &mdash; so I probably have only another six months or so of work to finish up the cosmetic details.</q><br />Definitely…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 04 Apr 2013 06:59:29 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Islander</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283729#post283729</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283729#post283729</guid>
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						<p><q>We will wait patiently. No rush just know that we do miss your contributions</q></p><p>seconded....</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 23:44:54 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283728#post283728</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283728#post283728</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						We will wait patiently. No rush just know that we do miss your contributions
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 23:27:05 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283726#post283726</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283726#post283726</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Onya
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 23:15:53 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>David Haywood</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283723#post283723</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283723#post283723</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Didn’t PAS used to have a blogger who was more expert in this stuff … name something like Davey …</q></p><p>Unfortunately, I'm still working to fix the gigantic fuck-up that one of the National Party's other big swinging dicks has created in Canterbury (and, more particularly, to my life).</p><p>I…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 23:04:22 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mccx</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283715#post283715</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283715#post283715</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Apologies for that RB.  In the time that I was downloading academic journal articles and typing up my post the "debate" 'sploded.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:45:50 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>mccx</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283712#post283712</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283712#post283712</guid>
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						<p><q>Do you mean the science which says that natural variability is far in excess of any anthropogenic climate signal? That point was made quite clearly.</q></p><p>I read the <em>Economist</em> article, not the <em>NBR</em> article (paywalled), so it's not entirely clear which science you're referring to here.  The journal article that…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:31:41 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Russell Brown</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283710#post283710</link>
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						<p><q>And you are clearly a person who uses words with no understanding of their meaning. Someone who insists that climate changes constantly can never be accurately labelled a climate change denier, It is nonsensical to insist otherwise. But you may not be alone.</q></p><p>I'm generally inclined to let these debates…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:25:02 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Danielle</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283709#post283709</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283709#post283709</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr7G3exr4Yg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr7G3exr4Yg</a></p><p>I suddenly realised who you remind me of, Farmer Green! Thank goodness, because it was driving me crazy. "Dammit, who ELSE obsessively refers to himself in the third person?"</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:18:31 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283703#post283703</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283703#post283703</guid>
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						<p><q>. I think it is still fresh in most other people’s minds.</q><br />Really , it was that upsetting?  Perhaps readers here are unaware of the ongoing debate that takes place in the agricultural media on a weekly basis. Name calling forms no part of that debate. It is devoted solely…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:47:08 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283702#post283702</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283702#post283702</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						And you are clearly a person  who uses words with no understanding of their meaning. Someone who insists that climate changes constantly can never be accurately labelled a climate change denier, It is nonsensical to insist otherwise. But you may not be alone.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:43:50 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283701#post283701</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283701#post283701</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q> In this sense I think that if there was to be no average warming for the next decade, climate models would need some serious revision.</q><br />  A point of agreement then . In another decade of no warming, depending on which dataset we are using (presumably RSS ) the period  of…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:39:39 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lilith __</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283700#post283700</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283700#post283700</guid>
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						<p><q>“So you want us to adapt to something you claim isn’t happening? Huh?”<br />Those are your exact words. You made up the bit about the claim that climate change is not happening. It is clearly a false accusation.<br />You then revised it to include the word anthropogenic and FG asserted…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:35:23 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283697#post283697</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283697#post283697</guid>
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						yes. fool us twice, etc
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:21:29 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>George  Darroch</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283693#post283693</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283693#post283693</guid>
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						<p><q>You might want to review the quality of the links in the last discussion that got derailed by this topic, particularly back when people where commenting about the links you were posting. I think it is still fresh in most other people’s minds.</q></p><p>Ah, a history. I have no time…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:09:26 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>George  Darroch</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283691#post283691</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283691#post283691</guid>
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						<q>What I’m meaning is that India and China are capable of making highly efficient appliances which are affordable for their own middle classes – which would be really cheap in NZ terms. I wonder if NZ importers are deliberately choosing less efficient models for the bottom end of the market…</q>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:05:30 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283690#post283690</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283690#post283690</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Local denialists continue <a href="http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/new-hockey-stick-but-same-tired-old-denial/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">usual form</a>.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:01:52 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>David Hood</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283689#post283689</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283689#post283689</guid>
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						<p><q>Really ? How many links?</q></p><p>You might want to review the quality of the links in the last discussion that got derailed by this topic, particularly back when people where commenting about the links you were posting. I think it is still fresh in most other people's minds.</p><p><q>The scientific…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:59:25 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Richard Grevers</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283686#post283686</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283686#post283686</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						No, I didn't. Well, not the Redflow bit. Interesting that they don't list redflow as an option for their basepower units yet. I'd seen basepower before. big $$$.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:51:39 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Hebe</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283685#post283685</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283685#post283685</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<q>Those in NZ who don’t see the need to clean up our environmental act may wish to consider what kind of environment they’d be living in if NZ had anything close to China’s population density.</q>A cesspit: Kiwis are bigger trash  producers per capita than US  Americans. The only reason we…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:47:52 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283684#post283684</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283684#post283684</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Do you know about these?<br /><a href="http://www.powerco.co.nz/Divisions/BASEPOWER/Photo-Gallery/Redflow/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://www.powerco.co.nz/Divisions/BASEPOWER/Photo-Gallery/Redflow/</a></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:24:08 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283683#post283683</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283683#post283683</guid>
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						Someone put this fool out of our misery.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:20:43 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283682#post283682</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283682#post283682</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Sorry I didn't realise quite how smart you were. Unforgiveable. Did I really say the earth was flat?  Of course not.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:17:15 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Richard Grevers</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283681#post283681</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283681#post283681</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>What does your last sentence mean?</q></p><p>I didn't exactly explain myself there. About a year ago we moved to an aging eco-house in a community, conveniently across the road from where we are planning to build. The power lines stop a couple of km away. The week before we moved…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:14:54 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283680#post283680</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283680#post283680</guid>
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						<p><q>. In other words, I don’t see much point in debating climate change, but bloody hell, we do need to clean up.</q><br /> Couldn't agree more. And that translated directly into becoming an organic farmer 35 years ago. FG is very happy to report that it has been everything that he…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:10:04 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283677#post283677</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283677#post283677</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>“So you want us to adapt to something you claim isn’t happening? Huh?”<br />Those are your exact words. You made up the bit about the claim that  climate change is  not happening. It is clearly a false accusation.<br />You then revised it to include the word anthropogenic and FG asserted…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:01:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Chris Waugh</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283676#post283676</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283676#post283676</guid>
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						<p><q>India and China are capable of making highly efficient appliances which are affordable for their own middle classes</q></p><p>This much I can confirm.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:57:09 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Richard Grevers</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283675#post283675</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283675#post283675</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<q>Energy star does make a difference, if you can afford the choice. We chose our new fridge in part based on the fact it had the best star rating (also the vege drawer could hold a whole spring onion!) &ndash; but we had the luxury of being able to make…</q>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:48:12 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Chris Waugh</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283674#post283674</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283674#post283674</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Counting mentions of China over the last few hours (and it really does interest me how China – at least as a metaphor – has entered the discourse in recent years):</p><p>George Darroch:</p><p><q>In the last 15 years wind turbines have become massive, and there’s a great amount of engineering…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:41:00 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283673#post283673</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283673#post283673</guid>
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						<p><q>Why can both sides not be argued?</q></p><p>Because insisting the earth is flat just pisses off smart people. If you want dullards to impress, go elsewhere.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:40:57 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283672#post283672</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283672#post283672</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>What has Manapouri got to do with it?</q></p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiwai_Point#Electricity" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiwai_Point#Electricity</a></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:39:37 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Richard Grevers</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283671#post283671</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283671#post283671</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>I heard 3rd hand that switching our entire transport fleet to electric cars would barely affect our electricity use as a country &ndash; certainly that's something that could be a good use of spare capacity, although apparently not much of it.</q></p><p>I believe there are still storage issues: Apparently a…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:38:33 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>ChrisW</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283670#post283670</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283670#post283670</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Why are we arguing climate change here?</q> <br />Emma has the answer, well dissected &ndash; <a href="http://publicaddress.net/up-front/fairy-tale-autopsies/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Tink, Tink</a>.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:37:30 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lilith __</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283669#post283669</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283669#post283669</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Just calling you on the false accusation; it is in no way nasty, but you may not enjoy it much.</q></p><p>How is my accusation false? </p><p><q>All organisms alter their environment. It is therefore impossible that the sum total of humanity and everything that it does will not have an effect,…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:22:38 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283668#post283668</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283668#post283668</guid>
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						<p>Really ? How many links?<br />The scientific process proceeds point by point with resolution of differing viewpoints. Why can both sides not be argued?  Who else here will argue the negative? FG’s interest is purely academic now that he has his exemption from the ETS and has been invited to…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:16:00 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283667#post283667</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283667#post283667</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						What has Manapouri got to do with it? It probably owes us nothing by now , and we could use it for electricity and spill  water  from dams elsewhere . There are more than a few rivers that could have used more flow this past summer.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:12:43 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>David Hood</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283666#post283666</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283666#post283666</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Science is not about belief anyway : it’s about knowledge.</q></p><p>The thing is, your posting links on climate change have been ones that consistently misuse the science  and misinterpret the conclusions. And these have not been in a random pattern but a pretty consistent direction, which to any reader suggests…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:11:17 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283665#post283665</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283665#post283665</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>And there’s no need to be nasty.</q><br />Just calling you on the false accusation; it is in no way nasty, but you may not enjoy it much.<br />All organisms alter their environment. It is therefore impossible that the sum total of humanity and everything that it does will not have…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:08:13 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Hebe</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283664#post283664</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283664#post283664</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Try the cheap plastic double-glazing kits for a few weeks and you will figure out if it is the windows. The kits need to go on before the condensation season starts. If you have no crawl space in the ceiling, it is likely to be losing a lot of heat,…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:00:02 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283663#post283663</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283663#post283663</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>It is primarily water that we are talking about. </q></p><p>No, we're talking about an expensive facility that turns it into electricity. But I'm interested to hear evidence that using dammed Manapouri water for other things is more valuable for the nation and the region.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 17:27:34 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>James Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283662#post283662</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283662#post283662</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>The Christchurch City council did this thermal mapping of the city that enable you to assess roughly how well your property holds the heat. Though it’s difficult to tell if it is a cold house or a very well insulated house; still it is a start. </q></p><p>That is very cool.…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 17:26:56 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lilith __</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283660#post283660</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283660#post283660</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>You’re putting words in my mouth; don’t bother. Science is not about belief anyway : it’s about knowledge.<br />Change the subject? Yeah right. Climate is not something theoretical ; it’s always there ; proximate; and always changing. Perhaps you haven’t noticed , or it makes no difference to you.</q></p><p>Do…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 17:11:14 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283659#post283659</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283659#post283659</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>You’re putting words in my mouth; don’t bother. Science is  not about belief anyway : it’s about knowledge. "Accepted science" changes with new knowledge.<br />I’ve adapted to the very obvious change in 1999 when the PDO switched from warm to cool. The period from 1975 -1998 was very different (for…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 17:06:33 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283658#post283658</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283658#post283658</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>    Is spreading the extra energy around the existing users the best we can do?</p><p>It buys us time. Time to make the adjustments in lifestyle (individual and collective) that will reduce our per capita energy use to levels that are long-term sustainable.</q></p><p>I heard 3rd hand that switching our entire…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:56:56 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lilith __</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283657#post283657</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283657#post283657</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>You haven’t been keeping up at all. FG has made no such statement. Climate is always changing. Farmers have always adapted. You can too.<br />What changes have you made since 1999?</q></p><p>You don't believe that anthropogenic climate change is real. In this you differ from accepted science, and when this…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:52:29 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283656#post283656</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283656#post283656</guid>
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						<p>It is primarily water that we are talking about. Spreading it amongst  ALL the existing users is not a bad idea. Using it ALL for electricity that we don’t currently need  seems a little wasteful.</p><p>What does your last sentence mean?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:42:43 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Richard Grevers</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283655#post283655</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283655#post283655</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Is spreading the extra energy around the existing users the best we can do?</q></p><p>It buys us time. Time to make the adjustments in lifestyle (individual and collective) that will reduce our per capita energy use to levels that are long-term sustainable. Time to figure out what happens with industry,…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:37:41 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283654#post283654</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283654#post283654</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>You haven’t been keeping up at all.  FG has made no such statement. Climate is always changing. Farmers  have always adapted. You can too.<br />What changes have you made since 1999?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:35:12 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lilith __</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283653#post283653</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283653#post283653</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						So you want us to adapt to something you claim isn't happening? Huh?
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:30:47 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283652#post283652</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283652#post283652</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Yes clearly there is no choice but to adapt. There will be no global treaty on emissions ; the carbon markets are a failure; and China is going to burn all the coal it can get. End of story; the science is now irrelevant. Whether or not it is desirable…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:26:51 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283650#post283650</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283650#post283650</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Well power demand is not going to shrink is it?   If demand grows over the 75 years to the point where the 15% of  our current use( by Comalco)   is absorbed by the increased demand then no new generation is needed. We don’t have to use it in the meantime.…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:23:06 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283649#post283649</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283649#post283649</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						compared with what? let's see the other options over the next 75 years
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:17:51 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283648#post283648</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283648#post283648</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						If it means that we never dam another river , would that outcome be not good enough?
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:13:04 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283646#post283646</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283646#post283646</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>We'd be much better off with renewable, reasonably priced electricity for the whole country than any new-tech scheme (has anyone suggested hydrogen electrolysis yet?).</q></p><p>Someone suggested carbon fibre manufacture on Danyl's post. I'd like to hear more about the economics of that. But we either use this rare opportunity strategically,…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:11:12 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283645#post283645</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283645#post283645</guid>
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						<p><q>Why are we arguing climate change here?</q></p><p>because we are tolerating people wasting our time</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:07:14 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Hebe</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283644#post283644</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283644#post283644</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>a $700 heat exchanger under their shower would be about as effective as solar hot water.</q>  Gosh; I have never heard of that; thank you.</p><p>I am also very keen on the floor-vented fridge cupboard I have seen in some permaculture publications.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:52:53 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Hebe</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283643#post283643</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283643#post283643</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<q> infrared imaging is not more used to assess houses</q>The  Christchurch City council did this  thermal mapping of the city  that enable you to assess roughly how well your property holds the heat. Though it's difficult to tell if it is a cold house or a very well insulated house; still…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:50:06 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lilith __</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283642#post283642</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283642#post283642</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Some scientists say the Earth goes round the sun. But look at it. Any fool can see the sun goes around us.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:42:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>James Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283641#post283641</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283641#post283641</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>I’d not heard of heat exchangers for water until this thread, that sounds like it’s worth looking at.</q></p><p>When I wrote that post (disclaimer!), I had to look pretty hard to find independent sources (most of which were Canadian). However, as you say, it does seem like low-hanging fruit, and…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:38:35 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283640#post283640</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283640#post283640</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Many have observed that NZ has one of the best renewable profiles in the world.<br /> Our geo-thermal resources are still not fully developed. Our hydro is about where we want it. Wind is struggling with the present technology (high maintenance and failure rate).<br />The only questions are over the prices…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:29:49 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>David Hood</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283639#post283639</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283639#post283639</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Before I answer that, and I can, can you confirm that you have actually read the IPCC report and know that you are only quoting a few sentences from the middle of a paragraph? Because, based on your question I suspect you don't know what is in the rest of…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:26:06 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283638#post283638</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283638#post283638</guid>
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						<p><q>Imagine New Zealand hosting a global data centre cluster in Dunedin, drawing on our cheap renewable energy, complementary timezone for Europe and the US, and our (unearned) green reputation</q></p><p>I'm just back from travelling, so excuse the late comment, but has anyone seen a business plan for such a thing…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:24:37 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283636#post283636</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283636#post283636</guid>
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						<p>Let’s not. We all agree that it happens. The argument seems to be whether we should try to stop it , or simply adapt to it.<br />It seems very obvious with the number of new coal-fired generators being built in China that  atmospheric CO 2  levels are going steadily upwards…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:19:45 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Russell Brown</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283635#post283635</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283635#post283635</guid>
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						<p><q>Now, were you talking about the Economist article, or the less fact based Herald one?</q></p><p>Let's be fair: NBR, not Herald. And written by an editor fond of recycling ropey talking-points.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:19:35 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>George  Darroch</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283634#post283634</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283634#post283634</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Why are we arguing climate change here?
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:18:15 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283633#post283633</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283633#post283633</guid>
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						<p>The quote from the IPCC is in quotation marks and is taken directly from the IPCC publication listed.</p><p>The IPCC report says:</p><p>“Projected changes in climate extremes under different emissions scenarios generally do not strongly diverge in the coming two to three decades, but these signals are relatively small compared…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:10:22 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>David Hood</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283632#post283632</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283632#post283632</guid>
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						<p><q>Attributed to the IPCC here:</q></p><p>I wish to point out that you are copying and pasting a press release from the GWPF from 2011 which has little bearing on the current article. The bit you left off copying from the end was the quote from their scientific advisor who has…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:05:26 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>George  Darroch</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283631#post283631</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283631#post283631</guid>
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						<q>Yeah from my limited reading there does seem to be a gap. Also it seems like wind turbines are all “old tech” – where are the carbon fibre structures that combine the best engineering to cope with high wind events with high efficiency in low wind? It seems like given…</q>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:04:52 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283630#post283630</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283630#post283630</guid>
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						<p><q>NZAS contributes $525 million to the Southland economy (10.5 per cent of Southland's GDP), 3,200 full time equivalent jobs and $1,600 million in Southland regional sales. Export revenue is around $1 billion each year.</q></p><p>This doesn't square with what can be found with a small amount of research. The [[http://www.riotintoalcan.com/ENG/whatweproduce/1804_nzas.asp|document…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 14:55:04 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>HenryB</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283629#post283629</link>
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						<p><q>Attributed to the IPCC here:</p><p>Press Release</q></p><p>You mean attributed to the Global Warming Policy Foundation, don't you?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 14:50:02 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283628#post283628</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283628#post283628</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Clearly hydro generation will be mostly concentrated , but there is no compelling reason why wind generation should not be distributed. Some energy storage would also be better distributed to household level  either by advanced batteries or electric vehicles etc.  i.e. the smart grid .<br />With new house construction, a…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 14:47:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283627#post283627</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283627#post283627</guid>
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						<p><q>That point was made quite clearly.</q><br />Attributed to the IPCC here:</p><p>Press Release</p><p>London: For many decades to come, and probably longer, mankind’s influence on the frequency of extreme weather events will be insignificant.</p><p>According to a preliminary report released by the IPCC, there will be no detectable influence of…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 14:39:59 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283625#post283625</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283625#post283625</guid>
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						<p><q>But there is a big gap in the market – nothing available in NZ between little 50W 12V units designed for boats of campervans and the $20,000+ units for larger buildings.</q></p><p>Yeah from my limited reading there does seem to be a gap. Also it seems like wind turbines are…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 14:02:36 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>David Hood</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283624#post283624</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283624#post283624</guid>
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						<p><q>natural variability is far in excess of any anthropogenic climate signal? That point was made quite clearly.</q></p><p>Eh? If you are talking about the Economist article the Herald hackery was based on, you had better go back and reread it. It cited one paper quoting that</p><p>"“the anthropogenic global-warming trends…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 13:29:29 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283619#post283619</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283619#post283619</guid>
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						<p><q> that grossly misrepresents the science it’s purporting to report.</q></p><p>Do you mean the science which says that natural variability is far in excess of any anthropogenic climate signal? That point was made quite clearly.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:52:32 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283618#post283618</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283618#post283618</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q> I tend to judge whether something is worth engaging with by how it’s presented and by whom</q></p><p>And you are like most human beings? Hmmm.<br />That could be a problem.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:50:49 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283617#post283617</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283617#post283617</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Gordon Campbell worries about the impact of the <a href="http://gordoncampbell.scoop.co.nz/2013/04/03/gordon-campbell-on-the-smelter-fiasco-and-its-impact-on-the-asset-sales-programme/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">smelter fiasco</a> on those 'mum and dad' investors.</p><p><q>At his press conference yesterday, even Prime Minister John Key confessed that he didn’t know how the possible closure of the Tiwai Point aluminium smelter might affect the value of the state’s three other…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:35:48 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283616#post283616</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283616#post283616</guid>
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						<p>Smelter consultant Lance Wiggs reckons data centres are <a href="http://lancewiggs.com/2013/04/03/can-we-replace-the-tiwai-smelter-with-a-data-center/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">not a viable replacement</a> for Tiwai's electricity take.</p><p><q>So how much does a data center use? Well the new IBM one in Auckland, which cost $80m, has backup generator capacity for “266 homes”. So to absorb Tiwai’s electricity use we’d need we’d…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:18:18 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Russell Brown</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283615#post283615</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283615#post283615</guid>
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						<p><q>Of course. Always far better to shoot the messanger.</q></p><p>Or, rather, to ignore partisan hackery that grossly misrepresents the science it's purporting to report.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:16:37 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283614#post283614</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283614#post283614</guid>
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						<p><q>Always far better to shoot the messanger.</q></p><p>Like most humans, I tend to judge whether something is worth engaging with by how it's presented and by whom. Life's too short to be 'debating' with flat-earthers.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:14:12 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Richard Grevers</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283613#post283613</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283613#post283613</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Two things make me hopeful.</q></p><p>And even more at the leading edge, I've read (sorry, can't recall where) of research into panels which don't use "solar" radiation at all but the background EM radiation which is pouring through us every second &ndash; they will generate power 24/7.</p><p>Yes, current PV…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:12:30 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>HenryB</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283612#post283612</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283612#post283612</guid>
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						<p><q>That Economist story is interesting and thorough. Nevil Gibson in NBR shouting about climate change “myths” being “exposed” is just noise.</q></p><p><a href="http://www.skepticalscience.com/hausfather-economist-sense-of-sensitivity.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"> Skeptical science</a> has an interesting discussion of the Economist story.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:11:52 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283611#post283611</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283611#post283611</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						But why do you need government involvement? It's either a good  economic idea or it's not.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:08:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283610#post283610</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283610#post283610</guid>
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						Of course. Always far better to shoot the messanger.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:07:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283609#post283609</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283609#post283609</guid>
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						<p><q>it looks like a wind turbine (far enough away from the house to not hear the noise) is a better bet than solar at the moment.</q></p><p><br />No need for any noise. And it’s really not so ugly.</p><p><a href="http://www.leviathanenergyinc.com/wind-tulip.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://www.leviathanenergyinc.com/wind-tulip.html</a></p><p>Combined with one of these (from Powerco) with a bit less PV…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:00:14 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283608#post283608</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283608#post283608</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>The Economist wrote the article from which the NBR piece is drawn</q></p><p>far more appealing than Gibson's foamy headlining, thanks.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 11:49:24 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283607#post283607</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283607#post283607</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Mr Brislen writes on data centres being a possible <a href="http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&amp;objectid=10874988" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">silver lining</a> in Rio Tinto's likely exit from Tiwai.</p><p><q>Facebook and Apple have just opened giant data centres in Prineville, Oregon (population 9253), a town nobody has ever heard of.</p><p>The reason? It's cold, which helps keep the cost of air conditioning…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 11:30:22 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>David Hood</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283606#post283606</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283606#post283606</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>That Economist story is interesting and thorough.</q></p><p>As the accompanying editorial in the Economist put it, having pointed out the low sensitivity levels  of increase is still bad, "If the world has a bit more breathing space to deal with global warming, that will be good. But breathing space helps…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 11:16:43 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283605#post283605</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283605#post283605</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>we’re on the cusp of a tech change in solar panels</q></p><p>Two things make me hopeful.</p><p>First is the use of organic molecules to make PV cells rather than rare earths. They are some distance from reaching the same efficiencies but they have advantages that might make even a lower…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 10:56:57 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283604#post283604</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283604#post283604</guid>
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						<q>If been keeping a lazy eye on solar panels because I’d love to have them for the “dream house” after I win lotto, but in the end it looks like a wind turbine (far enough away from the house to not hear the noise) is a better bet than solar…</q>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 10:46:07 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283602#post283602</link>
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						<p><q>Does that start to become “green”</q></p><p>I think so. I really do think we aren't far from quite dramatic changes in solar cells. There are a lot of folks working on alternatives, if for no other reason than to avoiud depending on Chinese rare earth mines.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 10:34:41 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Russell Brown</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283601#post283601</link>
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						<p><q>It’s not really denialist, and probably worth a read if you’ve actually got an interest in staying abreast of what’s happening in the field. The Economist wrote the article from which the NBR piece is drawn. The scientists whose work is used aren’t denialist hacks, either.</q></p><p>That Economist story is…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 10:32:26 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Matthew Poole</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283600#post283600</link>
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						<p><q>My hope is someone will figure out how to make efficient organic solar cells.</q></p><p>There's some really interesting stuff happening with using carbon nanotubes for solar cells. Does that start to become "green", or is the production of the nanotubes still dirty? And this is not a facetious question.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 10:29:55 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283599#post283599</link>
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						Without wishing to rain on the solar panel parade, there are some issues. The biggest is lifetime of the panels, they don't last forever and efficiency starts dropping from day one. Ten years is not an unreasonable effective lifetime for todays technology. Some systems last longer but they cost more…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 09:50:24 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Matthew Poole</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283597#post283597</link>
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						It's not really denialist, and probably worth a read if you've actually got an interest in staying abreast of what's happening in the field. <a href="http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21574461-climate-may-be-heating-up-less-response-greenhouse-gas-emissions" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">The Economist</a> wrote the article from which the NBR piece is drawn. The scientists whose work is used aren't denialist hacks, either.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 09:18:39 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283596#post283596</link>
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						Please post climate denialist material somewhere else. It's a waste of everyone's energy (pun regretted).
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 08:46:50 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Farmer Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283593#post283593</link>
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						<p>Funny ; all this talk about keeping warm.<br />O ye of little faith!<br />Meanwhile the bad news keeps rolling in.<br />Imminent catastrophe "postponed" !<br />Good news for producers of wool garments perhaps; it sure is an ill wind . . . </p><p><a href="http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/more-global-warming-myths-exposed-ng-p-137955" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/more-global-warming-myths-exposed-ng-p-137955</a></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 08:05:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283592#post283592</link>
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						<p><strong>Straight arrow...</strong><br />Steve Braunias opens <a href="http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/opinion/8490540/The-secret-diary-of-Ian-Fletcher-spy-boss" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Ian Fletcher's diary...</a><br />channelling his inner Haywood, methinks...</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 07:37:12 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283591#post283591</link>
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						<p><strong>Super troupers...</strong><br /><q> an enlightened government...</q><br />Especially one promising to make the future brighter!</p><p>The trouble with brightness is deeper shadows...<br />...and marked contrast...  <br />oh,<br />penny drops...</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Apr 2013 07:07:26 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>James Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283590#post283590</link>
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						Hebe &ndash; my understanding is that hot water heat pumps are not great for underfloor heating, as they don't get the water hot enough. Or you have to double the amount of piping in the floor.
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 23:31:46 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>James Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283589#post283589</link>
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						<p>Bob Lloyd is on record pretty regularly suggesting hot water heat pumps are a better bet than solar <a href="http://www.odt.co.nz/lifestyle/magazine/19075/harnessing-sun039s-warming-power" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">(eg)</a>. <a href="http://www.solarindustries.org.nz/.../HW%20paper%20Bob%20Lloyd%20and%20Sam%20Thomas.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">This might be the more science-y version</a>, but it isn't opening for me at the moment so I can't check. </p><p>However, <a href="http://distractedscientist.wordpress.com/2011/06/09/shower-water-heat-recovery-green-stars-and-loan-schemes/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">for many people</a>, **a $700 heat exchanger under their shower…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 23:29:56 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Hebe</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283588#post283588</link>
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						Environment Commissioner Jan Wright certainly came down on the side of heat pumps. I disagree with her reasoning to some degree. My preference would be solar/PV power for fine days with woodburner for heat on cold days and a hot water heat pump (which if  a radiator or underfloor piped…
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 23:16:40 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lucy Telfar Barnard</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283587#post283587</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283587#post283587</guid>
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						<p><q>If enough people could do a good-enough (rather than solar perfection) measure like hot water heat pumps, the demand must on the electricity supply must decrease.</q></p><p>Some research I saw by colleagues of Bob Lloyd (which I'll try looking up a citation for in the morning...) suggested that hot water…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:47:47 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Matthew Poole</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283586#post283586</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283586#post283586</guid>
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						<p><q>that would give us 4000MW. This is around 4 times our current total capacity from all power sources.</q></p><p>You sure about that? Vector put Auckland’s highest peak load in 2011 at 1722MW.</p><p>ETA: Never mind, I see your mistake was found.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:05:07 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283583#post283583</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283583#post283583</guid>
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						<p><q>It could even make sense they helped with capital costs.</q></p><p>Gee, an enlightened government might even do that.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 21:24:40 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Hebe</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283580#post283580</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283580#post283580</guid>
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						<q>we had to let go of solar water heating &mdash; it was just such a big investment </q>Ditto, and our little old house's roofline does not align north so it would cost megabucks.  My next best option I am now looking at is  is a hot-water heat pump: the right…
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 21:07:37 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Hebe</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283579#post283579</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283579#post283579</guid>
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						<q>What if a distributed retail power company was set up purely to buy excess power from thousands of consumers with solar/wind setups? That company could sell that power back to the main retail power companies. That company would have some skin in the game and be motivated to treat their…</q>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 21:04:00 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Richard Aston</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283563#post283563</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283563#post283563</guid>
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						<p>Aside from the need to upgrade our grid to smart grid the main issue is as others pointed out the competitive nature of our retail power market. But could this be turned to an advantage?  </p><p>What if the energy company you sold your excess power to was not the one…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 17:12:19 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283561#post283561</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283561#post283561</guid>
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						Thanks for that correction. I misread my source, which said 9,751 MW. I read that as 975MW. That was as at 2011, so yes, 4000MW added would only add 41%, rather than quadrupling it. Ta. Knew I was going to trip on one of these calculations. But as you say,…
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 16:51:41 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Angus Robertson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283558#post283558</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283558#post283558</guid>
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						<p><q>Surprised that the supposed champions of the free-market, our neoliberal overlords, aren't all over making it as easy as possible. But that presumes they actually have any real talent for organizing even such a simple thing as this, a solution completely in line with their supposed economic theories.</q></p><p>You fail…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 16:01:32 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>ChrisW</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283556#post283556</link>
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						<p><q>A million houses generating that would give us 4000MW. This is around 4 times our current total capacity from all power sources.</q><br />Not to deny that 4000 MW of distributed solar capacity would be huge, but <a href="http://www.em6live.co.nz/PriceImpact.aspx" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">current NZ electicity demand</a> ie 3.30pm 2Apr13 is over 4700 MW and there…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 15:41:29 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283553#post283553</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283553#post283553</guid>
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						Yes, my memory was that Vector was the most proactive in this regard. It does make sense from the grid's point of view to put smoothing suppliers right there where the power is being used.
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 15:22:31 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Keir Leslie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283552#post283552</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283552#post283552</guid>
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						It's probably worth remembering that the New Zealand government employs many of our best accountants, lawyers, and economists. I would imagine they could figure out the details of a power buy-back requirement if they were asked to...
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 15:22:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283551#post283551</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283551#post283551</guid>
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						I’d like to also note that the amount of power that could be generated from $10,000 setups is something like 4KW. A million houses generating that would give us 4000MW. This is around 4 times our current total capacity from all power sources. __[Ed's note. See below for correction and…
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 15:16:32 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283549#post283549</link>
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						<p>Vector is starting to run a home solar system package and Top Energy have done some trials for home systems with battery backups that have given them promising results. <br />These are both lines companies, ie not the generator or retailer of the electricity you buy. It (appears) to work to…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 15:12:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lilith __</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283548#post283548</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283548#post283548</guid>
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						<p><q>All the rest sell at retail, but buy at wholesale, which means the system saves an order of magnitude less money. Furthermore, there are no agreements that force them to stick to any deal made.</q></p><p>I think this is the reason why some ppl just have solar hot water heating.…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 15:11:06 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283547#post283547</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-done-like-a-dinner/?p=283547#post283547</guid>
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						<q>In fact anyone can do this, now. Some rellies of mine just got solar panels fitted. You tell the power company and they come and put a meter in to show how much you're giving back to the grid. They charge for setting up the meter, but after that they…</q>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 14:47:05 +1300</pubDate>
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