Hard News: Debating Clydesdale
136 Responses
First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Newer→ Last
-
If I couldn't handle a debate?
I would have done something else rather than chat to you guys all weekend.
Funny to accuse someone of not handling a debate, when that person has joined a discussion forum and argued with everyone else on it.
Jeez, I must be a pussy.
-
I have just read the kiwiblog comments - interestingly no-one seemed to have read Clydesdale's report - including the David Farrar.
But they liked the thrust of the arguments he put forward. Hmmm
-
Simon. Informed debate. Not self-pitying drivel.
-
The thing that makes you so mad
...etc.
My, what fantastic mind-reading powers you have. Why haven't you made a fortune on the stock market with such skill?
Just you you all know,
Defensive, aren't we, diddums?
I get that this is the Anti-Clydesdale forum
Labelling? Surely not.
If I was so offended by your lame personal attacks on me, I wouldn't have kept posting here
That's the spirit! My, you're so tough and manly, I might almost change my orientation!
you would have had a boring weekend if I wasn't here
That's right, we're all sad cases who have been searching for meaning in our wretched lives and then suddenly - why, it's "Simon Fraser". Hallelujah! Mind you, I am dreadfully sorry to have dragged you away from the fantastically exciting weekend that you must have been having.
nor do I think they need special treatment
[rolls eyes] Where to begin? Historical obligations? Cultural and political ties? Immigration, like treaties, are based on a complex web of influences, just as the concept of "contribution" is. It would take too many words and I'd have to draw pictures for you. In crayon, no doubt.
there is a scary movement in the world in which people no longer restrict being offended
Have you heard about the Illuminati? Or the Jewish Bankers? The Greys? The Men in Black? They'll really scare ya!
I would have done something else rather than chat to you guys all weekend
Ever seen Sartre's No Exit performed or read the script? Never mind.
I could use the same laws against you guys for your personal attacks on me. That'd be fun.
Ah, projection as psychologists call it. You accuse others of what you'd like to do yourself. Nice that you're being honest for a change.
Funny to accuse someone of not handling a debate, when that person has joined a discussion forum and argued with everyone else on it.
"They laughed at Fulton. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. They also laughed at Bozo the clown" - Carl Sagan.
Persecute anyone who says something you don't like
Well, I would say "diddums" again, but I suppose there's something deeper here - sort of. Adolescents and Lindsay Perigo often pick hopeless fights to "prove" that they're being unfairly repressed by those awful grownups.
That constant repetition of "you people" is telling, indicating a deeply insecure individual.
Jeez, I must be a pussy.
Could I comment? Really? Without irony?
OK, you've really got something to prove - and put that tape measure away!
(I've probably read too much existentialist and psychoanalytical literature.)
Good night, and God bless.
Sorry, I prefer Cthulhu - no need to choose a lesser evil and all that.
Too much time being nice to underachieving students and I have to let it out somewhere I suppose...
-
Simon - nice to see that you've picked up the ball.
"Your statement that Pacific unemployment is only 5% is proof that Pacific Islanders don't need special treatment. Maybe we should have a quota for bringing English people here instead. It sounds like they need more help, if what you say is right."
These stats are the best any of us can produce, they're recent & official. From this can you see that Clydesdales call to stop PI immigration is baseless?
-
I feel a song coming on...
Go on now go walk out the door
just turn around now
'cause you're not welcome anymore
weren't you the one who tried to hurt me with goodbye
you think I'd crumble
you think I'd lay down and die
Oh no, not I
I will survive
as long as i know how to love
I know I will stay alive
I've got all my life to live
I've got all my love to give
and I'll survive
I will surviveor maybe
Yo man there's a lot of brothers out there
flakin and perpetratin but scared to kick reality -
From this can you see that Clydesdales call to stop PI immigration is baseless?
Just to show that I'm even-handed in my cruelty, I must say, Shep, that you are wrong and you should have included the first person possessive apostrophe.
Ahem:
Clydesdale's
-
If we supported too many people financially who were unable to repay us, or worse, who turned to crime thus making our standard of living worse, it would be a bad idea.
So...You have a sick baby. Coughing its little lungs out, the poor wee bairn is taken to hospital, a public hospital payed for by the poor over taxed hard working people. Later, after years of state funded rehabilitation he is reintroduced into society by a caring National Government, caring for the tax payer(who no longer gives a toss because he don't pay no more) and finds, to his chagrin, that he cannot repay us. He tries to obtain employment in the newly regulated employment industry, requiring a minimum of 6.5% unemployment to keep inflation in check. So he turns to crime, the crime of taking enough to survive because he must pull himself up by the bootstraps to exist in the new pay as you go, loser pays, National Dream? Or should he do the noble thing..................and emigrate to Australia?
-
I was going to claim ignorance and indifference, but in doing so I realised I knew better.
I call for a limit on the apostrophe and a pox upon the semicolon.
-
For an explanation of the Thought Police comment, for those who will never ever read Bruce's book: there is a scary movement in the world in which people no longer restrict being offended to what a person says or writes: they get offended by what they were thinking.
As opposed to being offended by the colour of their skin or their "funny" names or the clothes the wear or the way they talk or just the fact that they don't agree with you. EH?
-
3410,
I call for a limit on the apostrophe and a pox upon the semicolon.
Is there some recent explosion in usage that I've missed?
-
I call for a limit on the apostrophe and a pox upon the semicolon.
You can have my semicolons when you prise them from my cold, dead hands.
-
It is my habit to deploy the semicolon liberall; yea, even extensively; to allow it to channel my otherwise aimless prose between its hybrid banks of comma and stop. Yes, I'm a fan of semicolonic irrigation.
-
Russell surely you meant to say:
"You can have my semicolons; when you prise them from my cold, dead hands' "
-
Russell surely you meant to say:
"You can have my semicolons; when you prise them from my cold, dead hands'
But that would simply have been gratuitous.
-
Why is it that everytime I see the title of this thread I think of Mr Ed?
-
I am a bit late to this party but LOL! Kim Hill ending the interview with "well it was very interesting talking to you Dr....." with the unstated but clearly implied "YOU PILLOCK".
Priceless.
What is with the meaningless twaddle about the Beatles and long walks on the beach.....
I can't believe this man is employed by a university.
-
Karl du Fresne has spoken, via his blog.
He acknowledges that Clydesdale's paper is "dodgy", but complains at great length about Tim Pankhurst being grilled about it, and decries the ad hominen attacks on Clydesdale.
The latter point is a little ironic given the amount of such abuse du Fresne has heaped on everyone else in his post, but I expect that's different.
He also says:
Well, perhaps in an ideal world an eager-beaver researcher would be assigned to assess the credibility of every academic paper submitted for publication, but that’s not how things work in the real world – including, I suspect, TVNZ.
The news media frequently publish what many might consider arrant nonsense by highly qualified academics; it’s a routine part of the news mix, and no one objects – that is, unless the subject matter happens to offend prevailing political sensitivities. I doubt that anyone would have tut-tutted at the failure to check Clydesdale’s history were it not for the crucial fact that he expressed a politically unfashionable view.
Actually, I think if a newspaper had prominently featured a poor-quality "study" that had not been through any conventional academic process -- but could have been accused of "political correctness" or something -- du Fresne would have been all over it.
-
in an ideal world an eager-beaver researcher would be assigned to assess the credibility of every academic paper submitted for publication
Well, in the 'ideal world', serious academic papers are submitted to a lengthy process of peer-review before they are considered worthy of publication. If they manage to survive that, then and only then are they considered for publication - they are generally considered to be prima facie 'good science' - no-one has been able to knock them over (yet).
9 times out of 10 (or so my studies have shown....) the reasons for bypassing the peer-review process and going direct to media publication are because:
1) the person in question has a personal agenda, or
2) they are being paid to push a point by a PR company.
As a consequence, academics who bypass the legitiamte process to publish direct in the media tend to become pariahs and/or laughing stocks among their peers.
-
[...] all I got was this T-shirt.
Maybe that could be shortened a bit.So, like a tank-top then?
Then, to abbreviate the rest of the message to fit the available space... Oh dear. I'm thinking... a tank-top of translucent material, with a message of just two letters:
"P" on one side and "C" on the other.
Must be something wrong with my medication. -
Clydesdale said:
"It's scary. New Zealand's future growth depends on its ability to create new products and production processes. We're going to have a large proportion of the population without the educational requirements to create that."
in http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominionpost/4553798a6000.htmlThe same article states: "In 2006, 265,974 people, or 6.9 per cent of the population, identified themselves as Pacific people. The Government grants about 2300 residency permits for Samoa, Fiji, Tuvalu, Tonga and Kiribati each year.
Statistics NZ crime figures show Pacific Islanders made up 9100 of 112,774 people convicted in 2006 - just over 8 per cent."
This seems to be only a slight over-representation of Pacific Islanders committing crime.
'Samoan Advisory Council spokesman Tino Pereira said the study was "lazy academic crap". Though Pacific Islanders had been disadvantaged in areas of health, education and employment, there had been significant improvements, he said.
Students were staying in school longer, more were taking up tertiary education and there were more Pacific Islanders in high levels of the public sector.
"The patterns for the future are looking good."'
- from the same article.
It is a good thing that more Pacific Islanders are choosing to further their education, as this will help rectify the problem Clydesdale was worried about.
To enjoy a decent standard of living in the future, we will need a robust economy. That will partially depend on invention and innovation.
The people who gain higher education may be from any race. The greater good of the country requires a certain amount of technical skill to abound.
It could be any part of society that was lagging behind. For the greater good, that part of society should be given a wake-up call to do what they can to help.
Clydesdale sounded perfectly reasonable on the Kim Hill interview.
http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/sat/sat-20080607-1005-Greg_Clydesdale_Immigration,_The_Beatles_and_Bach-048.mp3It's a pity so many people will not listen to a challenge.
There was a NOFX song that said, "Freedom of expression is a load of shit, just another farce in American politics." Interpolate New Zealand instead of American and we could sing along.
Jon Stewart said on C4 last week: "You can't criticise Israel's foreign policy and still get elected president."
If he was a Kiwi he may have said, "You can't criticise Pacific Islanders without being personally attacked." For the few who have debated Clydesdale on the facts, well done.
For all those who have attacked his motives and had a field day writing personal insults and trashy put-downs, you only serve to give the impression that there are no real arguments against what he said.
To those who said that PI unemployment is only 5%, and that many are now taking up tertiary education; and those who stated that PIs contribute in other ways too, such as sports and the performing arts, you are debating fairly, and your points have been duly noted.
Kim Hill would have done better to have said such things.
However, the personal attacks on Clydesdale from many media outlets and online blogs are shameful. Those writers should read "The Guide to Baloney Detection" in Carl Sagan's The Demon-haunted World. It lists many flawed forms of argument. Of them, the main kind visible online against Clydesdale would be termed: ad-hominem.
Apparently Sweden has banned smacking like us, and has the world's worstrate of child-abuse. Indicating perhaps that the police are wasting their time on minor offences, and having few resources to pursue more serious complaints.
Similarly, even though China and other countries have gone back to nationalised testing for schools, after finding that letting each school run their own show was failing miserably, we are going ahead with a curriculum that lets schools teach whatever they want, and test whatever they want, however they want.
We are a nation of imbeciles.
It's like how the Austrailians conducted a study that proved that smoking marijuana made people drive dangerously, yet New Zealand politicians said we couldn't ban driving stoned, because we did not have enough research on the matter. Couldn't we have just cited the Australian study?
In the words of Bad Religion: "We are all ignorant fools."
As long as everyone continues to think whatever their group tells them to, we have no hope of rediscovering our intellects.
Satan Bless. Good night.
-
I guess I am moved by Voltaire's famous words: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.
Whether Clydesdale is right or wrong, he may say what he likes.
Free speech with the condition that one does not offend is no freedom at all.
Think that gem is from Boston Legal.
-
Jon Stewart said on C4 last week: "You can't criticise Israel's foreign policy and still get elected president."
If he was a Kiwi he may have said, "You can't criticise Pacific Islanders without being personally attacked."
Well if you think that, you haven't watched Jon Stewart enough. He would have attacked Clydesdale on the top of his show if he was a Kiwi.
And American foreign policy towards Israel, and NZ's policy towards Polynesian immigrants, there's two things that are just so similar, what a useful comparison. Because the way the Pacific Islanders have gone into the islands and built settlements and set up their own country and built up a big war machine supported by NZ, and oppressed the people who lived there already and denied them a homeland, and the whole thing has been supported by a powerful PI voting bloc here in NZ... wow I can see the parallels now you've pointed them out.
-
Simon - Clydesdales 'own goal' (as per soccer) is that he claims to be an academic - employed as such by Massey & yet rejects academic rigour.
I think the term - "Publish & be damned" is more apt for Clydesdale. If you want freedom you have to accept that others have freedom too speak their mind & find fault.
I'm yet to hear of anyone endorsing his academic findings, his right to draw his own conclusions sure, but we're back to academic rigour again.
-
Shep:
I'm yet to hear of anyone endorsing his academic findings, his right to draw his own conclusions sure, but we're back to academic rigour again.
How about these people?
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=491684
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2008/05/pc_bullies_smot.php
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2008/06/economist_stand_1.php
Post your response…
This topic is closed.