Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Cultures and violence

Russell Brown

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 13:50:34 +1300

Hi folks. I’m closing the thread now. Love you all.

Russell Brown

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 13:08:18 +1300

This conversation has been very hard to watch. I agreed with Russell up thread when he talked of empathy, because I was trying to look at it from his point of view as a parent, and the other parents who describe their experiences.

Yes. That's what my original post was…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 12:50:38 +1300

I was trying to have a conversation about masculinity.

And I've really appreciated your posts on the subject. You've provided much food for thought.

Sacha

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 12:49:21 +1300

Lest our conversation here seems unreasonable, the nutty National Review chimes in (safely via DailyKos).

JacksonP

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 12:48:53 +1300

So then I told the story to Matthew, and he was all, "Yeah, I do that all the time."

Or speed up to walk in front of women on their own, or in places where your following them could be seen as threatening. Or cross the road. I find the…

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 11:53:11 +1300

I don’t understand why people seem to think that everything has to be explained by one theory, or one experiment, or one belief structure.
+1
Megan, thank you for giving us another chance, and for being clear about it.
I find the net and twitter (which I know only a…

Josh Addison

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 11:33:27 +1300

To be clear, it is Mr. McIntyre I am fond of, not Mr. Huckabee...

Ross Mason

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 11:19:26 +1300

I do have a fondness for that man.

We are an Inclusive bunch.....

Watch, listen, drop jaw, scream at screen!!!

It is my Great Stress Reliever. My Daily Fox Entertainment.

Josh Addison

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:54:23 +1300

Aaaaaanyway... Best response I've seen to Huckabee's arseholery re: Newtown, from John E. McIntyre:

Then in 1962 the Supreme Court decided that the State has its hands full teaching reading and writing and mathematics and science, which it doesn't always do very well anyhow, and maybe parents and the Church…

Sacha

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:54:16 +1300

I like how when men are angry, it tends to come out straightforwardly. Maybe that's an aspie preference?

Russell Brown

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:45:26 +1300

I'm really sorry you've suffered, Megan, and I hope you can come back and feel comfortable here. If I seemed to dismiss your experience, that was never my intention and I'm doubly sorry. I've found aspects of this discussion quite hard too. And I was furious at the way you…

Megan Wegan

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:31:48 +1300

As Keir noted, part of the problem for men discussing gender is that it will almost always be a discussion framed by women, and by women who have the benefit of a particular academic background, and will use a particular related vocabulary. (I don’t really know what “performative” means.)

First…

Danielle

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:20:55 +1300

All I’m really trying to say is that a lot of people (myself included) have genuine negative experiences of trying to engage in discussions on feminist websites, and those negative experiences will inevitably shade the next discussion on a similar topic they try to have.

This is why feminists can't…

Lilith __

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:20:13 +1300

“this is why men can’t load the dishwasher

that sounds like a mighty convenient line, but I can’t even see a plausible mechanism there

It's possible that was a John-Gray-ism, alternative title Pop-psychologists are from Uranus . Or some other book I'd like to send into orbit.

giovanni tiso

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:18:14 +1300

This discussion is making me wish I'd got to the end of Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender: The Real Science Behind Sex Differences, which was, I thought, pretty eye-opening

See also her Let's say goodbye to the straw feminist, in convenient blog-post-length.

Lilith __

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:15:41 +1300

I was agreeing with you.

Oh, I missed that. ;-)

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:13:11 +1300

Anna Notherthing...
But girls DO do math.
Lots of girls excel at math!
..and lotsa other stuff as well
– that's why they're called Pollymaths...
;- )

Sacha

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:12:35 +1300

“this is why men can’t load the dishwasher

that sounds like a mighty convenient line, but I can't even see a plausible mechanism there

Danielle

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:12:18 +1300

Evolutionary psychologists have ruined the word "hard-wired" for me forever and ever, amen.

(This discussion is making me wish I'd got to the end of Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender: The Real Science Behind Sex Differences, which was, I thought, pretty eye-opening about how even some science is a bit...…

Emma Hart

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:11:32 +1300

I'm not really sure how that particular incident reflects on the usability or otherwise of feminist theory for blokes, though.

I can give you my absolute assurance that the person in question would not have behaved that way to a woman, and that she used 'feminism' as the justification for…

Sacha

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:10:44 +1300

We all have different aptitudes. I’d like a world where we could freely explore what they are.

'violent' agreement here

BenWilson

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:10:29 +1300

One of the main proponents of "girls can't do math" is Steven Pinker, who is about as big a name in the field as they come.

3 out of 4 of my lecturers in math this year were girls. By which I mean middle-aged women, of course.*

*Temper that by…

Sacha

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:09:57 +1300

Men are more violent than women. Except they're not. Men seem to enact violence in a very different way to women, most of the time. Which is nothing to do with testosterone, and everything to do with what behaviour society condones in each gender. As a teacher of junior citizens,…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:07:56 +1300

But girls DO do math. Lots of girls excel at math! And probably many more would if everybody weren’t telling them, “you can’t do that, you’re a GIRL!”

I was agreeing with you.

Lilith __

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:05:48 +1300

One of the main proponents of “girls can’t do math” is Steven Pinker, who is about as big a name in the field as they come.

But girls DO do math. Lots of girls excel at math! And probably many more would if everybody weren’t telling them, “you can’t do…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:01:50 +1300

I have major issues with the pop-psychology “this is why men can’t load the dishwasher; this is why girls can’t do math” version.

Let's not dismiss it as pop-psychology though. One of the main proponents of "girls can't do math" is Steven Pinker, who is about as big a name…

Lilith __

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:01:06 +1300

I don’t think we know either way. I think saying it’s nonsense is too strong as well. Right now we are learning a lot about how the brain works how memories are established how patterns are established and disestablished in the brain.

Jus to be clear: the bits I object…

Sacha

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:59:46 +1300

everyone could be right at the same time

nature AND nurture

Sacha

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:56:41 +1300

"all apes seem to want to raise kittens and puppies, which suggests domestication may not have been a sudden, radical step"

the internet was bound to happen

Bart Janssen

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:51:22 +1300

I’m not a neuroscientist, but surely this is NONSENSE. Brains are plastic. They wire and rewire in response to the purposes for which they’re used.

I don't think we know either way. I think saying it's nonsense is too strong as well. Right now we are learning a lot about…

Lilith __

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:47:44 +1300

This is a no hitting forum.

Gently caressing?

Russell Brown

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:47:35 +1300

This year, I found out that there are men – and not just a few men – who will consciously alter their behaviour or the route walking home at night so they don’t frighten women.

Heh. I may have told you my story about walking up Ponsonby Road at night…

BenWilson

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:46:10 +1300

I've also noticed a disproportionate number of bell ends are male.

Brains are plastic

Zombies do not eat plastic. Their good taste extends that far.

Seriously. Brains, and thinking generally, are both well and poorly understood. Well, in the sense that the underlying mechanisms of the componentry have physical properties…

Lilith __

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:45:38 +1300

I’m sorry, I really wasn’t attempting to start an argument and I;m somewhat distressed to have done so. I don’t have any view on Witelson’s social commentary, but she is an internationally respected neuroscientist (I gather her paper on Einstein’s brain, published in The Lancet, was regarded as a gamebreaker)…

Russell Brown

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:38:41 +1300

I’m not a neuroscientist, but surely this is NONSENSE. Brains are plastic. They wire and rewire in response to the purposes for which they’re used.

I'm sorry, I really wasn't attempting to start an argument and I;m somewhat distressed to have done so. I don't have any view on Witelson's…

Danielle

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:34:39 +1300

I tend to view pop evolutionary psychology explanations as the equivalent of phrenology in the 1800s or social Darwinism in the 1920s- a justification for the social world being as it is.

Yes! I find them frustrating for precisely that reason. Thank you, David, I'm finding your posts very edifying.

Danielle

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:30:20 +1300

This stuff makes me want to bite my desk, frankly.

High five. Although my laptop is on a formica table and I think I might chip a tooth.

Martin Lindberg

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:28:23 +1300

I see that capitalism has provided a solution to school shootings. Great work! (Note: this product really exists and it's not from the Onion.)

Post-Newtown, Sales Boom for Kids' Body Armor

David Hood

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:28:11 +1300

Steven, before typing a key hit one of the shift keys on the keyboard to toggle out of the capitalised first letter.

Lilith __

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:25:40 +1300

figure out how to get the ipad to make a small q for the quotation code.

For shame! The iPad knows best! It should not be contradicted! ;-)

I think hitting shift works, though.

David Hood

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:12:59 +1300

why are we so invested in differences

I tend to view pop evolutionary psychology explanations as the equivalent of phrenology in the 1800s or social Darwinism in the 1920s- a justification for the social world being as it is. To which people who believe otherwise could say I am ignoring…

Lilith __

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:11:17 +1300

Sandra Witelson:

There were fewer physicists among the women. There were fewer mathematicians. There were more administrators among the women. But I think more revealing was that when they were asked to talk about what is important in their life, what their priorities are, there were huge differences.

For women,…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:02:26 +1300

So if, statistically, we are more alike than different, why are we so invested in differences?

Because at the extreme ends of the graph, if you see a difference then it is very likely to be genetic. That's why I look at the tails of those bell curves and look…

Danielle

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 08:57:35 +1300

I read that whole thing, and basically you were unfairly abused-via-jargon because she was embarrassed by mixing up Anika Moa and Emma Paki, and instead of doing a "my bad" she doubled down on the bullshit. I'm not really sure how that particular incident reflects on the usability or otherwise…

Russell Brown

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 08:37:48 +1300

But it does happen. Sometimes. One of the biggest problems we have in comments at The Lady Garden is people getting pissed off at men entering the discussions, or objecting to male perspectives, or male victims, being included in discussions. (Srsly, I’ve been told off for including men by a…

Ross Mason

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 08:28:34 +1300

Wow Danielle, are you interested in the Serengeti too?? ;-)

Russell Brown

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 08:24:55 +1300

However, because brains within a population range, we cannot speak about th specifics of those differences between two individuals – Danielle could have a more masculine brain than Ben, or a more Tibetian brain.

Oh sure, I wasn't trying to pull any Men Are From Mars stuff. But we've been…

Danielle

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 08:08:42 +1300

That’s the graph to keep in mind when discussing male/female differences. That’s how the distribution looks for most of them, albeit maybe slightly wider apart. The bulk of both distributions is still in the same range.

So if, statistically, we are more alike than different, why are we so invested…

Danielle

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 08:02:23 +1300

To be fair, my GPS is a total bitch.

David Hood

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 07:56:32 +1300

Can’t comment on the actual neuroscience that may have been done, but that passage has major alarm bells ringing.
While the quoted numbers were the first thing to ring my alarm bells, I can comment on the neuroscience, if only to the extent that this study was conducted 4 years…

Megan Wegan

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 07:50:45 +1300

PS “Male brain” alert: I am really good at reading maps.

She also yells at her GPS, but I'm not entirely positive that's a gender thing.

andin

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 07:24:05 +1300

I’m a long way from understanding my brain, much less anyone else’s.
Shit we dont need a brain introduction service do we? aHa! I think I've found a gap in the marketplace.
Well you know it where it always is haha, Unless....

Jackie Clark

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 06:20:04 +1300

This discussion has several points I'd like to address – James talked about arming teachers, which is a patently ludicrous idea, frankly, but I'd like to explain to him why. If guns were as freely available in NZ, as they are in the States, it is highly likely that I…

Islander

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 02:05:17 +1300

S “Male brain” alert: I am really good at reading maps

So am I (they are printedthings ) BUT I am ratshit awful finding my way around cities without written or e-maps…bush/beaches – cool! I know where I am, easily orient by sun (moon if necessary) – put me in…

SteveH

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 02:01:33 +1300

3: It’s not the guns. Statistically, the gun deaths are exactly what you’d expect given the number of homicides and suicides, and the number of houses which have guns. They just have a lot of homicides.
No, it is the guns. The US homicide rate for non-firearm methods is similar…

Lucy Stewart

Thu, 20 Dec 2012 01:23:36 +1300

Could the Sandy Hook tragedy be for gun safety what 9/11 was for airport security – that one tragedy that proves so morally indefensible, that it single-handedly forces everyone to pull together?

Can I hope that this is not the case in the same way? Because as someone who flies…

Chris Waugh

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 23:45:42 +1300

This study is probably what QI were drawing from.

Thanks for the link, but gender stereotype alert:

This, according to Rex Jung, a UNM neuropsychologist and co-author of the study, may help to explain why men tend to excel in tasks requiring more local processing (like mathematics), while women tend…

Ross Mason

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 23:09:59 +1300

PS “Male brain” alert: I am really good at reading maps.

Noice one!

Kumara Republic

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:55:06 +1300

This is all very interesting.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/latest-updates-on-connecticut-shooting-aftermath/?hp

Even Rupert Murdoch has come out in support of tighter gun controls and given his media empire that could carry some influence.

and from the NRA in another NY Times article: “The N.R.A. is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to make sure this never…

Danielle

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:54:49 +1300

But it does happen. Sometimes.

Yes. But aren't we currently talking about what happens *here*? That's what I don't get about why this conversation is... turning out less well than I had hoped.

PS "Male brain" alert: I am really good at reading maps.

David Hood

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:43:22 +1300

This study is probably what QI were drawing from. I have some problems with the numbers as reported (6.5 times? So a woman's brain is at the most 14% grey matter (and the males nothing but)? The lack of units don't help either)
But the general take home is that…

Ross Mason

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 21:57:16 +1300

I’m a long way from understanding my brain, much less anyone else’s.

I think this might the reason…..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrCPIrs90eg

And i was watching QI tonight. Women use white brain cellular material. Men use the grey. Something to do with map reading...

Chris Waugh

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 21:57:02 +1300

I'm pretty sure the male-brain/female-brain thing is a myth. I can't Google it right now but I have read that idea being roundly debunked.

This might help – but then again, it is a linguist's take on things, so hardly more expert on neuroscience than me. Still, googling "language log…

Islander

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 21:33:19 +1300

in words perhaps

One of my brothers didnt talk *in words* until he was nearly 5.
As someone who reveres words, written & spoken & sung & engraved in telling pictures, I didnt find communicating a problem-

I have a cousin who hums things – all of his family – pretty well get…

BenWilson

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 21:33:08 +1300

When Ben talks hardcore philosophy

Did you mean Emma? :-)

Danielle could have a more masculine brain than Ben, or a more Tibetian brain.

I'm a long way from understanding my brain, much less anyone else's.

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 21:18:27 +1300

and perhaps I'd talk about their problems with expressing their feelings

in words perhaps

Emma Hart

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 21:13:27 +1300

Honestly, do you really think of us as a bunch of hatchet-raised harpies, Russell, poised to come down on you like a tonne of bricks? Because that’s the impression you’re giving me right now.

But it does happen. Sometimes. One of the biggest problems we have in comments at The…

David Hood

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 21:06:42 +1300

But I can 100% guarantee you that your neurophysiology – your brain – is different to Danielle’s, and that that has an influence on your responses to your environment. It’s a value-neutral fact.
However, because brains within a population range, we cannot speak about th specifics of those differences between…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 20:59:31 +1300

unfathomable...
Variability is high.
and that is the problem, way too many variables..
there is no one answer or reason, too much we don't know,
too may random factors, too many seeds sown with
strange random triggers
– the ebon flow of dark tides and emotional rips.
When the perpetrators…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 20:54:53 +1300

I am sure! I wouldn't imagine otherwise. It's just that the fact of that reluctance is a super interesting thing in and of itself, if that makes sense? Like, it's really interesting how certain codes/strategies interact.

Danielle

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 20:38:24 +1300

I am completely nonplussed, because really, seriously, I am not trying to offend Russell. I am actually trying to have a non-angry discussion. Pinky swear.

andin

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 20:36:16 +1300

who knows how family currents & expectations mould people?
By watching beautifully as you seem to have.
When it comes to bad, urm, behaviour families have to "learn as you go" (sounds corny I know)
Or the state apparatus will step in. And that seems a fearful prospect. It shouldn't be.

Keir Leslie

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 20:32:21 +1300

Possibly that reluctance to engage is like, a thing worth dealing with.

Danielle

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 20:17:12 +1300

This is hyperbole.

Yes. I couldn't resist the alliteration or the imagery. :) The rest of my post isn't, however, and you appear to... not want to engage with that.

Lilith __

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 20:08:00 +1300

I can 100% guarantee you that your neurophysiology – your brain – is different to Danielle’s, and that that has an influence on your responses to your environment. It’s a value-neutral fact.

Erm, I'm pretty sure the male-brain/female-brain thing is a myth. I can't Google it right now but I…

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 20:02:34 +1300

Honestly, do you really think of us as a bunch of hatchet-raised harpies, Russell, poised to come down on you like a tonne of bricks? Because that’s the impression you’re giving me right now.

This is hyperbole. I tried to give a good-faith answer to your question. Let's leave it…

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 19:59:18 +1300

It would be a bit less likely to cause a shitfight if we could rigorously use quantifiers like “some” and “many”.

Or "may"? I said "may".

and we shouldn’t erroneously extrapolate out that I’m taller than Danielle.

But I can 100% guarantee you that your neurophysiology — your brain --…

Danielle

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 19:58:04 +1300

I tried half a dozen responses to that and the best that I could come up with was that I’d be sure to let you know when I’d stopped beating my wife.

It was a slightly snippy question, but it actually was an honest one. (And frankly, your answer does…

Islander

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 19:52:47 +1300

And it may be that the biological basis for spree killing is not testosterone driven status aggression alone. Perhaps the biological fact of having a penis makes it much more likely that you get a particular kind of socialisation which is also a prerequisite.

My family is a matriarchy (and…

Stephen Judd

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 18:36:10 +1300

it’s also really important to steer clear of the idea that women and men are biologically and neurologically different and their responses to their environment may consequently differ, even though that’s an uncontroversial fact anywhere outside the humanities. ... It will likely cause a a shitfight. It’s really only safe…

Yamis

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:55:18 +1300

This is all very interesting.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/latest-updates-on-connecticut-shooting-aftermath/?hp

Even Rupert Murdoch has come out in support of tighter gun controls and given his media empire that could carry some influence.

and from the NRA in another NY Times article: “The N.R.A. is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to make sure this never…

Yamis

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:47:30 +1300

It was your acceptance I was referring to.
Acceptance that these things happen, acceptance that there are people out there you can't do anything about. The common denominator is these are all mass deaths. They happen. We have become accepting of (some of) them happening and life carries on. But…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 16:58:35 +1300

That was a really good bike ride! Exactly that feeling for me.

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 16:54:00 +1300

In part that’s because it can feel really quite perilous to do so.

Because… feminists are so mean?

I tried half a dozen responses to that and the best that I could come up with was that I’d be sure to let you know when I’d stopped beating my wife.…

John Armstrong

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 16:46:25 +1300

But I don't accept anything about this, beyond the fact that it has happened. My understanding of acceptance is that you no longer strive for change. That is not my response.

That said, I have a feeling that we are on slightly different wavelengths here, so apologies if I am…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 16:26:25 +1300

I have to go and do an interview about drug law reform in Latin America now. Bizarrely

Oh and this ,not that bizarre, $30 and someone else can use their gun for you. One thing my bro found crazy down Guatemala way.He, who came from being frisked for weapons to…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 16:22:48 +1300

On the other hand this XXXX is probably quite nice, and I remember various other beers designated by various numbers of Xs on the cask.

The name dates back to the days when most people couldn't read. Some argue that Castlemaine XXXX is so called because Queenslanders/Australians still can't.

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 16:19:38 +1300

This…
I’ve said more times than I can recall in talks about this that the great gift of learning to understand how my boys were different was learning along the way how everyone is different. That people may respond differently because their actual experience of the world is different.

Well…

Ross Mason

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 16:04:54 +1300

while 'acceptance' definitely is not.

It was your acceptance I was referring to.

Acceptance that these things happen, acceptance that there are people out there you can't do anything about. The common denominator is these are all mass deaths. They happen. We have become accepting of (some of) them happening…

John Armstrong

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:57:51 +1300

Ross, I'm afraid that I'm not really sure what your point is. I think there is clearly a difference between the 'randomness' of a tsunami versus the randomness of a mass shooting. Or the dropping of an atomic bomb. In these last two cases, asking why is a perfectly rational…

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:54:47 +1300

he keeps that going longer than I'd thought possible

B Jones

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:52:42 +1300

Yeah, I'm enjoying it for the beautiful New Mexico skies, the clever editing, the nice cinematography, the unexpected twists here and there, and the OMG what an ARSE that Walt serves up just about every time you catch yourself sympathising with him.

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:52:25 +1300

Impact on parents of the aspie angle in coverage of this killing.

I know of worried parents who have called local autism organizations, eyeing their sons with Asperger’s or autistic disorders, wondering if they are looking at future killers. Many more of us are worried that others are wondering the…

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:47:34 +1300

True. In the human rights sense of 'enjoy' perhaps.

Emma Hart

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:46:34 +1300

Enjoy the interplay between him, his wife and his son unfolding.

Enjoy? Srsly? Even season 5, (Spoilers) where the relationship between then becomes a textbook example of psychological abuse? I've been treated the way Walter treats Skyler, and I found the first half of the most recent series almost unwatchably…

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:37:16 +1300

It's so beautifully scripted, directed and acted. Enjoy the interplay between him, his wife and his son unfolding.

B Jones

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:31:08 +1300

I've only gotten partway through, I'm not sure what the conclusions are yet :-)

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:30:02 +1300

You reckon the show didn't reach some conclusions? Don't have to be expressed in explicit written/spoken words.

B Jones

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:27:33 +1300

I'd expect something calling itself analysis to reach a conclusion rather than just open up a conversation. Drama sometimes does this, sometimes not.

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:23:09 +1300

I'd stop short of calling it analysis though.

I would. If it opens up a subject area for consideration, it counts.

Ross Mason

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:21:48 +1300

Particularly as it would leave gun control as the only option. Given the barriers that that course of action seems to face, that might mean accepting these admittedly rare but horrific acts as part of the human landscape. Which is even scarier.

Nothing like a few barriers to prevent this…

B Jones

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:21:00 +1300

I think the idea that men don’t talk about the construction of gender is pretty insupportable

I'm in the middle of a Breaking Bad marathon at the moment, and that seems entirely to be a discussion over the construction of what it is to be a man, and it's done…

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:10:20 +1300

For me it can feel like I'm being told my feelings are wrong sometimes.

Makes sense. People – including women – can sometimes assume we all feel the world the same way. Pressure on men to 'talk more about their feelings' reflects that.

Lucy Stewart

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:09:59 +1300

Pretty basic question would be: where was this young man's father?

Amicably divorced from the mother, by the latest reports.

Keir Leslie

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:09:45 +1300

Well yes, I don’t particularly think an analysis of gender has to be literary, has to come packaged in theory or has to be easily digestible by gender studies scholarship to be an analysis of gender.

[ETA: not an attack on gender studies scholarship, and not to say that those…

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:08:05 +1300

Pretty basic question would be: where was this young man's father?

Danielle

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:01:21 +1300

It isn’t the critical one that gender studies supplies, but it is one.

I think perhaps you and I are using "analysis" differently.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:59:44 +1300

In part that’s because it can feel really quite perilous to do so.

Because… feminists are so mean?

That isn't it for me. For me it can feel like I'm being told my feelings are wrong sometimes. I don't mind being told my facts are wrong. I also don't mind…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:50:05 +1300

Performing gender is not the same as analysing why it’s performed in that particular way.

Hang on why are we assuming there's no analysis here? I think there is an analysis of gender and why it should be performed in that way. It isn't the critical one that gender studies…

Danielle

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:46:32 +1300

Crossed wires: Keir was talking about the culture at large and I was talking about this particular thread.

Danielle

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:45:51 +1300

Keir, I thought you were talking about THIS discussion, not the discussion in the culture at large.

men don’t talk about the construction of gender is pretty insupportable

Performing gender is not the same as analysing why it's performed in that particular way.

In part that’s because it can feel…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:40:37 +1300

“several women speaking in a non-women’s-only-area on the internet” is… unexpected.

Are you referring to this forum? Because I kind of feel like PAS expects anyone and everyone to speak.

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:40:02 +1300

2: The news this time has been damned kind to we few with Aspergers. They are never so kind to the Psychopaths. Privilege in it’s own little way.

A very good point. If you're schizophrenic, people are going to feel much more comfortable about calling you "Evil" than if you're…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:30:44 +1300

(I rather take issue with “dominated”: that word shows the extent to which “several women speaking in a non-women’s-only-area on the internet” is… unexpected.)

Eh when it’s a professor at Princeton, and a prominent journalist talking about a nice comforting other of white males I think there’s a useful point…

tussock

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:28:20 +1300

So, a couple things.

1: I think the angle of violence in the media totally has things going for it here. Not a lot, but real anyway. Dude's Mum was a bit of a collapse cultist, which totally feeds on the news cycles of sensational violence, popular crime dramas, and…

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:28:18 +1300

That can be almost entirely attributed to another problem, which is that the construction of gender roles is a topic “marked” as a chick thing. A *feminist* chick thing. When in actuality it could be so much more than that. So men end up not having any practice in talking…

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:21:03 +1300

So men end up not having any practice in talking about their own gender as a category

mostly true, yes

Yamis

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:19:51 +1300

“oh well he was xxxx, and therefore we don’t have to worry about anyone else unless they are xxxx”

Oh well he was crappy Australian beer, and therefore we don't have to worry about anyone else unless they are crappy Australian beer.

When really we need to worry about all…

Danielle

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:18:16 +1300

It also interesting to what extent this is a conversation about (supposedly) disempowered young men initiated and dominated by women; there’s a who’s-speaking-for-who problem here.

That can be almost entirely attributed to another problem, which is that the construction of gender roles is a topic “marked” as a chick thing.…

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:18:07 +1300

Being poor is being marked

And has practical consequences that have not been addressed nearly as much as some other group barriers have been.

However as Russell and others have noted, this latest mass killer was not poor.

John Armstrong

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:49:39 +1300

what if none of the things we can rationally think of are anything to do with the decision to go and kill (or harm) as many people as they can? That thought scares me a bit.

Me too. Particularly as it would leave gun control as the only option. Given…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:44:10 +1300

But has anyone really said that?

Not here no.

And I also agree characterising it as simply "evil" is disturbing as well.

I just have to wonder if given these mass murderers are so damn rare (out of 300 million in the USA we see how many?) what if none…

John Armstrong

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:34:16 +1300

incredibly edifying discussion

Mostly.

John Armstrong

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:32:41 +1300

What worries me is that it becomes easy to say
“oh well he was xxxx, and therefore we don’t have to worry about anyone else unless they are xxxx”

But has anyone really said that? I take your point about the possibility, but I was far less comfortable by Barack…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:32:06 +1300

I think the core of the problem is actually that most of the people in power are still old white guys – in America even more so than in NZ. Society tells young white (cisgendered, heterosexual) men, still, that their viewpoints and desires and beings are privileged over everyone else’s.…

Angus Robertson

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:29:46 +1300

And having privilege doesn't necessarily mean having power. Which is a huge part of the problem. "Everything is supposed to work for me, but I feel powerless. So what am I meant to do? If the world is set up for (white, cis, hetero, able men like me, and I…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:19:32 +1300

Society tells young white (cisgendered, heterosexual) men, still, that their viewpoints and desires and beings are privileged over everyone else’s. They are the baseline, the Normal. But that doesn’t make all of them powerful. And the question arises – if success is epitomised and embodied by People Like Me, why…

Chris Waugh

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:13:56 +1300

But I don’t think that we serve anyone well when we talk about what men have “lost” to others. Shouldn’t we talk about what they have to gain?

Yes, absolutely.

And there is much more in your comment that has got me thinking, but it's too early in the morning.

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:04:51 +1300

That's a weird thing, from my point of view.

We all relate to some objects though, right? Cars, buildings, coffee machines, other toys.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:39:10 +1300

I’m struck by how many layers a story from another country has proven to have.

Same.

One thing I’ve progressively become less comfortable with over the last few days is the focus on the mental health or otherwise of the perpetrator. What worries me is that it becomes easy to…

Ross Mason

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:38:52 +1300

I've said more times than I can recall in talks about this that the great gift of learning to understand how my boys were different was learning along the way how everyone is different.

Wha........????? Where have I been?
Is this universally known?
The government should do something!!!

[[http://www.minedu.govt.nz/theMinistry/Consultation/NationalStandards.aspx |…

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:05:23 +1300

I’m still struggling to grasp it. Your boy was a real eye opener for me.

It's been hard work for him to understand the impact of his behaviour on others. When I grasped that I was able to to stop whining "why are you doing this to me?" which helped…

Lilith __

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:54:51 +1300

Wow, this discussion has come out really caring and civilised and fascinating. Thanks all. And I look forward to those guest posts, Russell.

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:23:28 +1300

Any, thanks everyone: this is a difficult, complex and emotional range of topics we've covered here.

Matt Frost has offered me a guest post from an Aspie perspective, which I'll hopefully publish tomorrow, and my son says he'll write something about blaming video games for public violence.

I'm struck by…

Tim Michie

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:18:02 +1300

Oh, this. I could not agree more unless I was you saying it.

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:11:07 +1300

That people may respond differently because their actual experience of the world is different.

Learning that academically helped me understand myself. Many worlds.

I actually regard that insight as a significant professional benefit in my line of work.

Same. Doesn't mean I listen as well as I could. #notajourno

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:59:29 +1300

I’m still struggling to grasp it. Your boy was a real eye opener for me. The thing about non-neurotypical is that there’s 500 million flavors. It’s really hard to make generalizations about what works for them and what doesn’t, or what they might be capable of. The same goes for…

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:46:44 +1300

The same goes for everyone else too, but in a much tighter range.

I reckon people are both more different and more similar than we think.

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:35:47 +1300

Ta. That's the one I was remembering.

Danielle

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:33:35 +1300

I'm kidding, I'm kidding. But I *am* a sometime historian. That appropriate attribution shit runs deep with us, yo. :)

non-marked social group

Speaking of marked social groups, I meant to say, I really liked THAT article linked way back in answer to my question by... David, I think?... in…

Sacha

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:15:01 +1300

Society tells young white (cisgendered, heterosexual) men, still, that their viewpoints and desires and beings are privileged over everyone else's. They are the baseline, the Normal. But that doesn't make all of them powerful. And the question arises – if success is epitomised and embodied by People Like Me, why…

BenWilson

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:12:27 +1300

people who didn’t seem to grasp the immense privilege of being neurotypical in a world designed by and for neurotypicals

I'm still struggling to grasp it. Your boy was a real eye opener for me. The thing about non-neurotypical is that there's 500 million flavors. It's really hard to make…

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:01:48 +1300

Yes, I saw that, but since you were so busy accusing me of making shit up it got a bit lost in translation. ;)

I said sorry. I just thought you’d made an unfair paraphrase when you hadn’t. Soz again.

I have to go and do an interview about drug…

giovanni tiso

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:01:32 +1300

But there are multiple levels of privilege. You can be a poor white man and still retain privilege, like, I dunno, the privilege of not being sexually harassed on the street or having workers in the hardware store answer their questions directly rather than talking to their spouse (not that…

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:59:35 +1300

The stripey shirts, who were led to believe that the world owes them a debt simply by virtue of their maleness

But these are not the boys who turn to mass shootings.

No, and they're not the lost poor white trash either. I didn't see the stripey shirts anywhere in…

Danielle

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:57:59 +1300

I tried to say so two pages ago.

Yes, I saw that, but since you were so busy accusing me of making shit up it got a bit lost in translation. ;)

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:56:43 +1300

ETA Now that I don’t have a screaming baby on my lap I’d like to note that the column I think is better *also talks about empathy* and, in fact, no one is denying the importance of empathy in these situations at all. It’s just going to be a little…

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:54:12 +1300

You know who I've thought about quite a bit? Bailey Junior Kurariki.

By all accounts, he was a bright kid. I wonder what he might have done had his options and luck been better. How did it get to the point where he's a tragic man who exposes his genitals…

Martin Lindberg

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:53:11 +1300

The stripey shirts, who were led to believe that the world owes them a debt simply by virtue of their maleness

But these are not the boys who turn to mass shootings.

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:33:09 +1300

Of course.

Sorry, didn’t mean to sound so terse there. But I’ve had discussions about that word with people who didn’t seem to grasp the immense privilege of being neurotypical in a world designed by and for neurotypicals. It’s just vast.

Danielle

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:31:11 +1300

not shouting about whether each one is an “excuse” or not

Hey. I’m not shouting. I actually think you’re being pretty unfair to Megan too, FWIW.

ETA Now that I don't have a screaming baby on my lap I'd like to note that the column I think is better *also…

Megan Wegan

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:32:07 +1300

Many people on the spectrum suffer in school environments, but of course nearly all of them don’t kill anyone. Can you understand that I have a more direct interest in wondering what the hell happened to this kid than shouting at him about his privilege?

Of course.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:30:59 +1300

Numbers and numbness...
At a biological level, considering humans much the same as bacteria or viruses, and with a world population over 7 billion it doesn't surprise me that we get rogue cells, social cancers and collapsed colonies, at all levels...
On our road to post-humanity a large percentage of…

andin

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:27:01 +1300

the patriarchy hurts everyone.
It does, and it really is time people stopped buying into it.
And yet we still celebrate the birth of a man/god annually who supposedly died for something(I'm not quite sure what). It kind of ensures the patriarchy continues.
But I still like giving gifts...

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:25:07 +1300

I think it is a combination of any number of factors – and not just “the decline of men”, as that article I linked to up there. Mental health, abuse, the gun lobby, God, Fox News.

I'm beginning to wonder if there's a real problem somewhere in American schools, tbh.…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:14:12 +1300

Excellent question. What say we take that really seriously and find out what the hell’s going on with those men?

It's one of the deeply frustrating things about mass murderers (for criminologists) they almost always commit suicide. That leaves the investigators mostly guessing at what went on in the killer's…

Megan Wegan

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:08:47 +1300

I wonder what made those other boys so. “Because: Evil” seems a really rubbish answer to me.

And I don’t think there’s an easy answer to that, in large part, because as you pointed out yesterday, they so often kill themselves. I am really uncomfortable with all the speculation (not…

JacksonP

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 06:58:11 +1300

It might even require some empathy. This. Times a million.

Megan Wegan

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 06:54:56 +1300

They are the baseline, the Normal. But that doesn’t make all of them powerful. And the question arises – if success is epitomised and embodied by People Like Me, why I am I, personally, not sharing in that success?

And having privilege doesn't necessarily mean having power. Which is a…

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 06:50:42 +1300

(And I don’t read that piece as though she’s describing your boys. I’m sorry if I implied that it did.)

She’s somewhat confused about who she’s describing. The names she listed at the top, the young men who have actually committed rampage killings, do look like my boys in many…

Russell Brown

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 06:23:58 +1300

Here’s my problem with this idea: let’s say we all agree that testosterone is partly “why” men are more violent than women. Yet we also agree 99.9% of men can squash the urge to go around beating the crap out of things and shooting a bunch of people because: reason;…

Yamis

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 03:47:12 +1300

Have been reading and posting semi facetious remarks in the St Louis Times facebook section beneath their article on gun control.

Basically their views are those stereotyped, what about abortion, won't make a difference, ban cars, and carnival rides too then, UK gun violence went up after bans, arm civilians,…

Lucy Stewart

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 03:26:07 +1300

You can either buy into a model of taking power off white men (and end up with a hugely unjust society that has some different people at the top) or you can talk about taking power off the hugely wealthy and empowering most white men (and most black men, and…

BenWilson

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 01:49:28 +1300

I don't see a contradiction.

It's not a contradiction. I'm just reporting on social attitudes. Masculinity is not traditionally associated with caregiving. I can't help but feel that, even though it's most certainly not rubbed in my face by anyone. Quite the opposite, the silence is deafening.

Sorry, I'm running…

Steve Parks

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 01:45:08 +1300

Still catching up on this thread so may have also been linked, but if not, here's another one.

__ ...we set out to track mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years. We identified and analyzed 62 of them, and one striking pattern in the data is…

Chris Waugh

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 01:29:05 +1300

It seems to me that understanding what’s going on is paramount and men don’t have a monopoly on that.

Not quite what I meant. There are problems that are specifically male. Men don't have a monopoly on understanding those problems, but we do have the responsibility to deal with those…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 01:24:33 +1300

It seems at the end of the day, what the NRA & GOA et al represent has little to do with public safety and the defence of a nation, and much to do with a born-to-rule order that's rusting from within – no matter how much razor wire or how many…

BenWilson

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 01:00:31 +1300

The gender angle on mass violence does not seem to be a derail to me.

what's more masculine than taking care of and nurturing your kids?

I'd love it if I could really feel that, honestly, since that's also my situation. But I don't. I feel very much disempowered by…

Yamis

Wed, 19 Dec 2012 00:28:48 +1300

Megan Wegan

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:59:56 +1300

(And I don't read that piece as though she's describing your boys. I'm sorry if I implied that it did.)

Keir Leslie

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:55:07 +1300

Exactly.

Chris Waugh

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:54:02 +1300

but why does it have to be me? Why isn’t it you guys.

It shouldn't be you, for two reasons. Firstly, as you rightly point out, the problem guys aren't going to listen to you. Secondly, it's one of those rare issues where it really is a guy thing. It's…

Megan Wegan

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:43:00 +1300

And I have been the victim of violence at the hands if the kind of men she's describing. Can we agree to politely disagree, please?

Russell Brown

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:39:07 +1300

or you can talk about taking power off the hugely wealthy and empowering most white men (and most black men, and most black women, and most queer people, and so-on.)

Any chance we could squeeze a few differently-abled in the back there?

Russell Brown

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:37:36 +1300

OK, and I ask this sincerely, because I really do want to do something about this, and I genuienly don’t know what, but why does it have to be me? Why isn’t it you guys.

Megan, I am not only the parent of young men, I am the parent of…

Keir Leslie

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:25:14 +1300

(Personally speaking though I'd just go for a massive compulsory buy back programme at this point in time and if the angry white men didn't like it they can talk to the G-Men. On the other hand that's super not Obama's style, so.)

Yamis

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:12:08 +1300

I read the first 4 pages of this thread so apologies if this popped up anywhere after that (which it may well have, I'll trawl through and find out shortly).

But I agree with this person:
http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/01/owning-a-gun-the-way-the-constitution-intended-you-to/
Allow for the unrestricted ownership and use of guns and ammunition as they…

Keir Leslie

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:11:43 +1300

You know, when you talk about the power of white men, you make the baby Marx cry.

Most white men are hugely disempowered in the context of an American society primarily structured around massive wealth disparities. You can either buy into a model of taking power off white men (and…

Danielle

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:00:32 +1300

I’ve been shooed out of a previous thread by Danielle and Megan while trying to have a respectful discussion on the same issue.

I'm sorry, I don't remember this at all. The PAS feminist thread-shooing cabal *is* kinda busy, though, and it's a volunteer organisation, so...

Ana Simkiss

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:53:10 +1300

Can I just say this. This is an intense and serious and emotional discussion, carried on with respect and aroha by you PA peeps. Keep it up & well done you lot.

Tristan

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:47:39 +1300

It doesn't need to be you like you said why should you have to its not your fault they dont get it. Just we gotta get someone on to it quick

and apologies the word but in my above post implies that your cant have both equality and engagement that's…

Russell Brown

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:41:24 +1300

If you don’t interpret the column that way, OK. I think there’s a definite argument to be made that it’s an elaborate excuse-away-the-heinousness exercise, though.

It would be fair to say that we are reading it differently, yes.

Megan Wegan

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:40:40 +1300

someone has to engage these men and bring them along because some of (a lot of them) have fucking bushmaster semi automatics.

OK, and I ask this sincerely, because I really do want to do something about this, and I genuienly don't know what, but why does it have to…

B Jones

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:38:29 +1300

But if that’s centres around the things that the scary feminists and the civil rights movement took away, it’s not going to get anywhere. And it’s dangerous.

Yes, it is.

DexterX

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:38:07 +1300

There is a lot of effort going into a focus on imagined and irrational arguments – that have not basis in reality – the inquiry into the shooting is still underway and a conclusion is a long way off.

It would be good to see the "debate" move onto how…

Tristan

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:36:49 +1300

I've been shooed out of a previous thread by Danielle and Megan while trying to have a respectful discussion on the same issue. It would be nice if we could chat about something else for change. Anyway here goes...

It’s not up to us to mop the brow of dudes…

Russell Brown

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:33:17 +1300

Sorta. The words you’ve quoted, inside quote marks, do not appear anywhere in the column you’re quoting.

Um. They really do. The full paragraph:

Gah. I humbly withdraw and apologise to you both. I'm not sure what I did there when I thought I searched for that text on the…

Danielle

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:23:33 +1300

The words you’ve quoted, inside quote marks, do not appear anywhere in the column you’re quoting.

Oh yes they bloody well DO. They are in the middle of the paragraph beginning "For women, things are looking up." As a matter of fact, they're still highlighted on my screen from when…

Megan Wegan

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:21:21 +1300

OK, I was going to sit on this overnight, but since I can’t sleep, here goes.

Sorta. The words you’ve quoted, inside quote marks, do not appear anywhere in the column you’re quoting.

Um. They really do. The full paragraph:

For women, things are looking up. We can vote, we…

Ross Mason

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:08:14 +1300

And this won't work either.....

Hilary Stace

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 21:52:33 +1300

Now the author of the thoughtful NZ blog Autismandoughtisms has been dragged into it all because some of her posts have been taken out of context.

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 21:26:42 +1300

Lest we forget what the adults in control want their nation’s kids to grow up and do…
[[http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/pain-continues-after-war-for-american-drone-pilot-a-872726.html| A soldier sets out to graduate at the top of his class. He succeeds, and he becomes a drone pilot working with a special unit of the United States Air Force in…

Russell Brown

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 21:01:15 +1300

I think those two columns are arguing different things, and no, one is not a “more able” version of the other. The one Megan linked to argues that “because resources are limited, gains for women and minorities necessarily equal losses for white males”. Which is such a bizarrely adversarial way…

BenWilson

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:58:20 +1300

Regarding the Second Amendment and it's amazing ability to ensure the freedom from tyranny, it's worth noting that Tunisia, with the lowest rate of gun ownership in the world, overthrew it's tyrannical government 2 years ago.

DexterX

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:30:17 +1300

Here are some facts from The Atlantic Wire

Action – 0: Number of concrete things President Obama has done to keep guns off streets that White House press secretary Jay Carney could name in a press conference Monday.

John Lennon, Martin Luther King, Kennedy, Gabrielle Giffords, – across America 30…

Ana Simkiss

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:21:07 +1300

that a significant number of the perpetrators of rampage killings, especially in schools, look like victims of those “hyper-gendered cultural pressures”.
Well said Russell. Privilege is not the issue to focus on.

andin

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:18:29 +1300

make believe world of gun free zones and leaving people defenseless when there are crazies
I love it when people say we're living in make believe worlds. We live in societies of our creation. They are not immutable!

Matthew Littlewood

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:16:42 +1300

Crikey editor-at-large Guy Rundle's latest, furious column is sadly hidden behind a paywall, but it's worth excerpting a couple of key paragraphs. (It's also worth subscribing to Crikey too, as it happens). He calls the latest incident a "pivot point in wretched gun debate".

Some key quotes:

There is no…

Keir Leslie

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:01:38 +1300

It’s not racist or sexist to suggest that white men are struggling with a loss of power in this country. I’m not demonizing white men, many if not most of whom probably don’t feel powerful and in control. But the fact remains that in this country white men have long…

Danielle

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 19:45:53 +1300

I think those two columns are arguing different things, and no, one is not a "more able" version of the other. The one Megan linked to argues that "because resources are limited, gains for women and minorities necessarily equal losses for white males". Which is such a bizarrely adversarial way…