If we lose Deborah like this, the system has failed.

"LAST!"

But the wind has been taken out of my sails.

Hurry back Deborah! We miss you already.

Quick, everybody, abandon thread!

Yes. Lacking for the moment a technical means of doing so (which I'll investigate today) I'm calling this thread closed. Malcolm, two grown-ups have had and settled a disagreement and that is it. So please, nobody post:

THREAD IS OVER.

i'd also say that craig is a valued contributor who hasn't always exercised perfect discretion with his posts, but then most of us are guilty of that – i know i have been, and sometimes i've been rude and unfair to craig…

i wasn't part of this thread (ie not reading) early in the piece. did craig and deb sort this one out already?

I thought we'd had the rather fake group hug and moved on thoroughly. Apparently it just won't die however.

Well, I thought so but obviously not to Malcolm's satisfaction – which is neither here nor there. And that's where I'd like the matter to rest, please.

Just to repeat what I said above…

Now I think Craig is…

if not, forget i said theatre.

Althougth I think double standard or second class citizen also work pretty well.

Never thought it would happen, but I'm feeling nostalgic for Nigerian lottery scams, Viagra knock-offs from Canada and old school NSFW forwards.…

I could be missing something here. So if someone calls Theatre, that mean’s we must reboot our computers. I’m I right?

I thought it meant we had to re-format them

I've always thought losing your tongue would be pretty anoying.

It's probably in the last place you left it.

well... the last place i saw it was in my mouth, so if i wake up and it's not there... then it had better not be in someones soup.

.. talking about the incompatibility of formal linguistics and writing poetry. (though yes of course each informs the others etc, i mean being in the right wordspace to practice each)

on the contrary, I'd wager that a disproportionately high number of linguists are also poets. See, e.g. this book

There's no…

Now, Deborah, I'm not going to insult your intelligence or mine with one of those not-very-apologetic 'so sorry you've got the problem' no n-apologies.

Me either, Craig. Ever heard the line, "Everything before 'but' is bullshit." People use it in non-apologies all the time – "I'm sorry but yadda yadda…

I don't really want to re-start a thread where my own contribution quite honestly didn't live up to my own standards, but I take allegations of malicious 'belittlement', harassment and intimidation of women in any forum incredibly seriously.

I also react very strongly – and not always temperately -…

theres no serious distinction between art and science or words and numbers really

No, there is not, none at all, it is all an illusion and without the tension of seeming opposites there can be no one.
Solve et coagulare.

I've always thought losing your tongue would be pretty anoying.

It's probably in the last place you left it.

no but it reminds me of John Barth's Floating Opera, which i was trying to think of before when m was talking about the incompatibility of formal linguistics and writing poetry. (though yes of course each informs the others etc, i mean being…

i got that with auto-illustrative, as in "word", "English" and "abstruce". a kind of sematic onomatopoeia.

There's a word for that! Awesome!
"obfuscatory"

On verbing, I recall John Ralston Saul complaining about how some managment-speak words get bounced back and forth and gain a syllable every time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Distant_Episode

i got that with auto-illustrative, as in "word", "English" and "abstruce". a kind of sematic onomatopoeia.

we know when to smile and nod

that's a nice thing.

I love it when verbs get nouned, because then 'verb' is a noun, and 'noun' is a verb. That gets me all grammar-nerdy excited the way programmer things get my partner all programmer-nerdy excited. We don't grok each other's nerdiness, but…

Ha! I studied linguistics at university because I thought it would be all about grammar. (I didn't investigate more thoroughly because I was more concerned with leaving Hamilton) I soon discovered that it was essentially maths with words. I could never get my head around it and failed all the…

how are you feeling Russell? are you feeling better now? nothing like a stomach upset.

I headlined it: 'These things are sent to trial us'. Made my day.

Prof Hay may have a view on whether…

I've had long discussions with Assoc-Prof Hay on this sort of thing. As I understand it, she sees linguistics as being descriptive rather than prescriptive.

To use the musician analogy: I think (if asked) she'd inform you that your 'C' was a eighth-tone flat — but she wouldn't suggest for…

This is when misunderstandings could have been so easily avoided by use of Che's excellent RLML (Real Life Markup Language) tags.

What DO they teach in schools these days

See, it works OK online, but I have real trouble portraying the tags in person.

I've resorted to sticking my hands…

"guinea-pigs" are useless at grammar

true, but we're good at getting consultants

This hurt quite a bit I have to confess.

This is when misunderstandings could have been so easily avoided by use of Che's excellent RLML (Real Life Markup Language) tags.

What DO they teach in schools these days

it looks like my husband might come over and beat…

if i get to choose, can i have "Bishop Hairless Pink Guinea Pig With the Words and Stuff the Pious"?

of course you can come m. the surf at tawhas was non-existent but it was beautiful nonetheless.

and thank…

But if it's any consolation, I can't tell a noun from a verb either. Actually, I think I was away from school that day.

My greatest fear is being on a plane during a hijack by grammar terrorists. They point a gun at my head, and ask me to parse…

Sheesh. What DO they teach in schools these days....

This hurt quite a bit I have to confess.

So can everyone now stop receiving "invites"?

I've had long discussions with Assoc-Prof Hay on this sort of thing. As I understand it, she sees linguistics as being descriptive rather than prescriptive.

To use the musician analogy: I think (if asked) she'd inform you that your 'C'…

Have fun.
(But be careful what y'all say about my inner machinations – or it…

And do you know, I troubled myself with this throughout my retreat. Eventually I theatered myself so I could get some sleep.

R. you are now My Master, can I come next time?

The absurdism is important because I like to think of The T Word as a single-form koan

…

Well... it's like asking a professional classical musician if the note you're playing is a 'C'. Either it is, or it isn't. There's no 'machination' about their reply. It's simply a statement of fact.

So can everyone now stop receiving "invites"?

David, there is a secret password: "Usage determines propriety"
they will leave you unharmed.

Deborah
I was the person who got a chocolate fish for using "theatre" in a staff meeting.
I hope they looked at…

Well I certainly admit to not fully understanding the full nuances of use of 'theatre', but here's my opinion, for what its worth:

I wouldn't have come out of the gate with this one.

I do now understand University Presses publication decisions more fondly following this insight into academia's inner grammar machinations...it's a proprietory pride thing.

Dude, I don't know if this is an insight into "academia's inner grammar machinations" at all.

But if you ask an internationally-regarded linguist whether a word…

"Theatre" would be a little too subtle for most Trademe messageboard posters.

Not if we send over a few PA posters to rabbit on and on about the precise meaning for a few pages on TM.

And while we're over there we could correct their spelling and grammer. They R qwite…

sorry, couldn't help it

the evil plan comes together!

mua... mua.... muahahahah-oooo chocolate biscuits...

oh, and RB 'white food' is good for gastro.

white rice, white bread, potatoes, egg whites. that kind of thing.

At the risk of offending the PA intelligensia; over at TradeMe we just used to say "This thread is dead" and that was usually pretty much it. This on-going long-winded discussion over "Theatre" is a little overblown, dontcha…

Jen:
since you can't really use a verb after 'call'

Rob:
why not? Before anyone explains- I hereby call "retreat" and "surrender!"

Yeah, sorry – perhaps I wasn't being very clear, there.

I guess we can distinguish two uses of call:

(1) something that means basically 'shout' – in which…

for talking it out like adults

I'm glad you only said "like" an adult, Rob. I would hate to be mistaken for an actual adult. :-)

Proud to be a Pedant!

I hope he apologises to you, but I don't think it went unremarked.

Indeed, as I said in one of my posts subsequent to the one which I posted when I was very upset.

I have agreed that I imputed motives to Craig where none were intended. Craig, that is…

I don't think that what I wrote justified what was subsequently written about me. It might have justified me being told I had made a mistake, that I had misinterpreted Craig, but not what was actually written.

Yep. The proper response was "not what I meant", or, better yet, Heather's…

I don't think that Craig's original comment was offensive, nor was it intended to be so.

Actually I did think it was offensive, because there has been on-going criticism of Miss Clark for not using her husband's name, and for not having children, which I have always interpreted both as…

why not? Before anyone explains- I hereby call "retreat" and "surrender!"

Forcing me to swallow a huge chunk of pedantry about gerunds.

since you can't really use a verb after 'call'

why not? Before anyone explains- I hereby call "retreat" and…

Alright, if anyone cares, I'm saying:

1. I don't think that Craig's original comment was offensive, nor was it intended to be so.

2. It was fair enough to take issue with its logic, but not to impute motive.

3. Craig's subsequent replies were needlessly bitchy.

4. The use…

Jen wrote:
"It could be a verb if it was serving as a request (stop! shut up!), as in "please can you theatre now".

Che wrote:
I'll run with that explanation. seems to be the most common usage, after all.

okay, it's your word! When used in isolation, I guess…

It could be a verb if it was serving as a request (stop! shut up!), as in "please can you theatre now".

i'll run with that explanation. seems to be the most common usage, after all.

assoc. prof hay, much appreciated.

"lol owned"

i am demanding that assoc prof hay amend that wiki, immediately!

But I daren't assert such bold authority – especially since not everyone seems persuaded by my point of view, and since there seems to be some dissension about it's actual use...

Merc wrote:

Comment: I want to…

Rob Stowell wrote:

In context, "theatre" may be best described as neither noun nor verb but simply as an ejaculation

I also don't really buy that it's…

lo!

Lo? Lo?!! Lo??!!!

You're not retreating from Aragorn into Elessar, are you Che? I much prefer the Strider personality.

but lo! it is a wiki, and she could just change the blimmin thing herself, because, lo! like,…

Assoc-Prof Jen Hay (Department of Linguistics, University of Canterbury) tells me that "I call theatre on this thread" is to use it as a noun, not a verb. Apparently "I theatre this thread" would be using it as a verb.

Not that I noticed anything amiss,…

Also thanks for the "Thou shalt not kill" tip, yesterday. "Just a band"; now that's zeitgeist!

we're like, evolving and all hip and modern and that.

except merc [small voice] we think he might be a middle-eastern terrorist type... it's the mustache.

I plead guilty to not calling out every instance of a comment that could be considered abusive. That said, everyone else needs to share that.

I responded to one particular comment from one particular commenter (not Deborah, as noted above), because I thought he was being a…

So, yes, having read the thread, I agree with the apology…

it drew very strange looks.

but made my day, all the same.

Should have said that you are a dab hand at the one-liners too, Che.

probably not.

might work if your colleague was called 'theodore', and you mispronounced it. the fish was deserved though, all the same.

the counter-culture is entrenched. especially where you work. bean-counter, especially.

I appreciate the use of it 'though.

And I would like to point out that I was the person who got a chocolate fish for using "theatre" in a staff meeting.…

(scroll down to 'verbs' to get the reference).

Can we go back to the silly jokes now?

Or as the bish would say, enough is enough.

Except of course, Deborah and I would have to shout that from the back.

Deborah – you were right to call Craig originally, I would have backed you up 110% (as they say in…

My quoted comment was definitely not directed at you, but at another commenter who I didn't name in an attempt to avoid a personal flame war (though I'd hoped that calling him a newbie might have clarified it enough).

I think you've rather missed Deborah's point – she was upset…

What am I to make of all this?

Deborah,
My quoted comment was definitely not directed at you, but at another commenter who I didn't name in an attempt to avoid a personal flame war (though I'd hoped that calling him a newbie might have clarified it enough). I am…

Can we go back to the silly jokes now?

Does that mean I won't need my pitchfork and torches?

that's an IN JOKE between me and Che

Hadyn, that's ok, I get it all the time. "Ah ya bunny..." this and "what a freakin' rabbit..." that. and some people have accused me of just being in it for the wood shavings and shiney new…

How about Deborah – The Sage of Parsley?!

Danyl's comment made me laugh out loud, and made me realise that I might have exagerrated slighly about no one here commenting, because actually, people did, here and there. I was a bit wrought up to notice – sorry!

Can we go back to…

I would've loved to have had more of an impact this morning but my brain was lacking in perspacasity.

ps. Riddley, I never knew that was a Guinea Pig I thought i was a bunny, but now that I know, I realise it's missing the ears!

Someone e-mail Craig and let him know 'Dad4Justice' has hijacked his PA account

was pretty funny

Having posted all that... I'm over the distress now.

And I enjoy the quick one liners between you two, and people like Juha – as someone else said somewhere,…

Craig – my two cents says Malcolm is right,…

me too. your comments are invariably well put and i can't recall ever disagreeing with what you've said over the past months. the person in question is clearly having yet another very off day and frankly, i just got tired with bothering with…

To recap, Craig said:

I'd also note that if you really want to be petantic about 'legitimate' titles, shouldn't we be referring to the Prime Minister as Mrs Peter Davies – even though she prefers to style herself with her maiden name

…

Bishop Che, truth and enlightenment.

kind of appealed to my ego.

and

i have you now!

the princess bride? spoken by the bloke who had his father killed, and kept reminding everyone?

Does this mean I can put it in my CV?

well of course Marquis, it has been bestowed upon you – it's…

Apologies Baron Llewellyn, Marquis Hadyn de Wellington
Ta. I think just seeing it on the internet validates it.

Does this mean I can put it in my CV?

I think my Unitarian Jihad name was Brother Machine Gun of Inner Peace. But that was back in my activist days...

I always liked Marquis, but I'll take Pope if noone wants it.

I can't quite imagine calling anyone Your Holiness. What about Cardinal? Nice robes. No Harleys, but we can call you Your Eminence and start a lot of sentences with 'My goodness, I wasn't expecting..."

Baron Llewellyn

Ta. I think just seeing it on the internet validates it.

I think I prefer to be more casually known as "The Baron" though. It sounds more elite.

The people who accused Simon Barnett of being a child molester and rapist?

Fair enough, I'd forgotten them. But then, I didn't get to hear or read what they said: just Barnett's account of it. Not that I am accusing him of making it up, but how many such emails…

Possibly you misheard your cat who was saying "More fish up here".

that's being a bit too generous.

Acutally i just said: "Am I a bishop?"
Cat: "meow"
I said: "I'll take that as a yes then"

I'm guilty of this, and I've been on the receiving end, too, so I know what I'm talking about.

Everyone has their Pantomime Dame moments. Bishop Brian is one of the few who's like that 24/7.

No fish for who can tell where that comes from...

Look, *every* comment worth its salt will have *some* part of it that will strike *some* person as unusual. Would it not make more sense to just post…

If you think it might help you to hold your end up next…

Arabic al-fÄ«l means "the elephant", but in Europe and the western part of the Islamic world people knew little or nothing about elephants, and the name of the chessman entered…

Yours,
Bishop Riddley (it's ok, my cat made me…

Or Bishop. I suspect in the Destiny Church, just Bishop. But when you meet him, feel free to go with "My Lord".

That's convenient, because normally my reaction to him is "My lord... what is that idiot on about now?". Or other "biblical" words.

*Takes off Red nose and floppy shoes*
Tamaki puts me in a difficult position. On one hand people can believe what they want to and call themselves want they want. Leave me alone and I will leave them alone. The…

I prefer obscured, let it stand for the record My Lord.

I was more self impressed with my movement pun.

malcolm. is that gravatar the flying spagetti monster by any chance?

if so, good choice. the bishop of a hundred lovers would never approve.

The more obscured the title

Bloody spell checker, that was meant to be absurd, not obscured. lol

I think we should encourage him. The…

I went back and re-read these posts. It’s pretty clear , your original ‘joke’ only works if Mrs Peter Davies was somehow the most technically correct title for Helen…

Methinks someone who calls a thirty-five year old man "boy" doth not have standing to get Miss Manners on anyone's arse.

And with an increasing level of insult. "I can't be wrong, my opponents must be [insert insult]" is not the most edifying argument you have ever made, Craig.

Golly, I need to order another book of reality checks... but I'm as bored to sobs by all this 'Jonkey' balls from the left as I am by the 'Helen Klark' childishness from the right, and I've probably wasted far too much time and energy calling out right-wingnuts on…

the correct formal address for a bishop is "My Lord"

Or Bishop. I suspect in the Destiny Church, just Bishop. But when you meet him, feel free to go with "My Lord".

And your right, "Rt. Hon" is the correct title.

Heather's got a good paraphrasing, the original post by…

Mrs Peter Davies clearly isn't her legitimate name

Man, this is a really weird conversation.

Anyway, in the absence of any discussion that makes the remotest amount of sense, I really have to side with Craig... I'm pretty sure that the point of his original post is that there's no…

this means we should be called her Dr Clark.

Umm, Helen Clark doesn't have a doctorate. She started a PhD at Auckland, but never finished it, at least according to wikipedia. Her correct 'prefix' is 'Rt. Hon' (Helen Clark).

And Craig, no need to get titchy because Deborah pointed out…

if others spell it incorrectly that's their problem.

Somebody call Max Cryer! I think you'll find that Ms. has been accepted as common useage. It even pops up on most forms one is requested to fill out ...

I've actually been in a room with the Demoness Clark, shook her hand

pretty…

Unless there's a lot of sticky keyboards out there, Clark is referred to as 'Miss' – and somehow, I don't think the Prime Minister would bite her tongue if it bothered her that much.

And, no Ridley I'm not being sarcastic. I've actually been in a room with the…

:) <-- dreaded emoticon

I don't really like Helen Clark very much either, but I don't see the point of petty rudeness either

sorry Craig, so are you criticizing your self there, or is that sarcasm too?

are you right handed or left handed? I'd imagine that's been enough "disciples" to sustain you in life thus far ....

Ouch! Truce?

Heh heh – took me a while to get the phrasing right (and I still don't think I nailed it). I think maybe we do need emoticons…

Eeek... don't open that can of worms. Personally, I think it's a wee bit pretentious using an academic title in a non-professional or academic context. Then again, I'm sure Michael Cullen and Lockwood Smith (and others) would politely suggest I…

Oh, FFS, Deborah... I was belittling mindless pedantry (you know, Victorian forms of address as…