''I don't know why people think cows and sheep are carbon emitters,'' Mr MacPherson said.

''Thank god the National government had the sense to not include pastoral farming as carbon emitters.''

''Anybody with year 11…

Thanks for that very interesting and worrying read. The more I see of Fonterra, the less I like it. I’m sure I don’t understand all the economics of it,…

What chance of either of the main political parties, . . . actually any political parties . . . addressing this issue?
How much longer can we allow economic…

” What we would say is (that) the market structures around dairying are . . . driving that quest for more cows…

Not so simple. There was conflict, there were Viking-like raids and full-on war, there was trade, there was intermarriage, there was adoption of aspects of each others' lifestyles.…

It’s interesting that this article identifies the real problems in the dairy industry but stops short of proposing any commercial solutions.

" What we would say is the market structures around dairying are what's driving that quest for more cows – a level playing field would sort that and…

That's interesting. Those in public office tend to use their own names.

In general I'm more inclined to accord some credibility to someone who "walks the…

I'm saying that your ability (or inability) to influence the composition of the regional Council will be over-ridden by the provisions of the RMA , which will allow the development that I presume you object to.

My contention is that ratepayers/voters have no say in the way the RMA is applied in their area, whether a democratically elected council or a Commissioner is in charge. The actual outcomes are determined by the RMA and any existing regulation…

What do you mean? It seems that Shanghai Pengxin has no intentions of following the accepted NZ dairy model which is the root cause of the relative unprofitability of conventional NZ dairying. The first thing being…

As for water buffalos, my point was they can't be so destructive if they're still used in agriculture. I guess Queensland is a great example of putting something where it's not supposed to be and doing nothing about…

May have been talking about the difficulty of persuading young New Zealanders to join that life nowadays. Think lifestyle rather than income.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/opinion/9621047/Taking-a-shot-at-NZ-farmings-next-seven-years

Plenty of risks here:-
http://www.dairynz.co.nz/file/fileid/29371

It looks like you may have mis -read FG’s comment.

As a highly profitable dairy farmer, Farmer Green has absolutely no cause to complain about anything, so if you were suggesting that it is he who has the chip on his…

I was hoping for engagement on the substantive issues . . .

What’s that about Joe? Are you talking about the foot-dragging on environmental issues?

Just for the sake of clarity, I should explain that I'm addressing those urban dwellers who think that farmers have a "low standard of living".

The big destroyers of the soil structure and immense fertility and productivity of the Great Plains were the…

or a reach-around

Coming very late to this interesting discussion...
There's a base assumption right there, Russell – that cows eat grass. They can…

Looks like a half-arsed attempt at plausible deniability.

Auditing my household's ecological footprint made me a keen supporter of carbon pricing which can be folded into the other costs that contribute to consumer pricing.

An…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/9600410/Failed-doubters-trust-leaves-taxpayers-at-loss

What are our chances of getting these eedjits declared as vexatious litigants?

It's hardly surprising that insurance companies are taking global warming seriously – their business depends on having an accurate assessment of the risks. They can't afford to make decisions based on ideology, their decisions have to be evidence-based.…

same thing as what caused the record drought a year or so back – the weakening of the northern hemisphere jet stream.

h/t @skepticscience

That'd be leadership…

I don't see…

First, Bart's approach is only one line of scientific inquiry that might help mitigate agricultural emissions. Another would be to work on farming methods that sequester carbon by building the soil rather than depleting it. Not as sexy as…

Very true, but there's also this…

I'm not sure, I don't think so.

But it is true that we venerate physical elites fairly easily but it isn't cool to say I was lucky enough to be born with the ability to remember a whole lot of shit from lectures and hence am…

Ok I hope I haven't jaded…

Dairy farming is currently much more profitable than beef, sheep, or arable farming. Special levies and new regulations would make it less so. We would then see fewer…

Because oil drilling research is bad then all research is bad? Really?

And just as an aside the problem is that this govt and previous govts demand that research show immediate economic benefit for NZ or they are not…

yeah, but the effect is marginal. you have some moving away from the bad behaviour, but there will always be a core group who keep at it. smoking being the classic example.…

Dr William Rolleston, Federated Farmers spokesperson on climate change:
“Whatever ones’ views may be on the causes of climate change, the fact is it is happening ..."

After beef, lamb, pig and fowl
have been culled, and served
will we look at ourselves?

Seems to me that farming might need to go back to more diverse mixed…

New Zealand has a responsibility to reduce our own emissions in line with our international commitments. We don't have a responsibility…

I also find it of deep concern that I am arguing in line with Fed Farmers. I really have no desire to increase our dairy herd I also have no desire to see dirty farming practices continue. I also really do understand that carbon/water/nitrogen…

Don't look at the lost land, no,
embrace the gained kai moana!

;- )

Yes!! And gosh! Even the insurance companies are factoring that risk into their future assessments.

HEY RODNEY! DID YOU SEE THAT?

the same conference where CERA was trumpetting their $20bil building project in the areas soon to be underwater.

two words; totes cray.

When people have to confront things like this, it really does underline how irrelevant clowns like Rodney Hide are.

Water: Water rights from the Waimakariri, and they have bought other water rights from around the…

The best footprint data I have found is from Carbon Footprint of Nations. Sadly they have removed the widget where you…

Surely the desired outcome of the R&D Bart is arguing for would be products, specifically grasses and bacterias, that could then be sold to the world's dairy (and sheep, beef, deer,...?) farmers, earning bucketloads by selling these high tech, high value added…

It's called productivity.

number of cows does not equal number of dollars earned.
not increasing cow numbers further does not mean 'reducing' them.
don't know that I can be any simpler than that.

diary herds are increasing hugely in New Zealand

It’s all there in black and white! On vellum. ;-)

;- )

i think this is a point that needs repeating. the effect of dairying on water quality is only tangentially related to the greenhouse question.

dirty dairy is from what we now consider the bad practice of…

And nothing will be achieved on any of these fronts if we keep giving dairy farming a…

Oh and try reading. The point is not to benefit NZ farmers. The point of doing the research is that it could help ALL farmers on the WHOLE planet. And that is a shit load more cows and sheep than we have in…

Possibly not, no. But he is a buffoon (it'd be interesting to see what he'd do if the Pope stated a clear view given his strong Catholic beliefs).

Hey Kier, here's a question. How much do NZs cows and sheep contribute to the total greenhouse gas production of the planet? Not per capita, just the absolute amount.

When you have an answer to that how about you rewrite you hyperbolic statement.

But in 1992 dairying wasn't a quarter of our income and it is now. I genuinely don't understand how you expect to have the same standard of living if you cause our export earnings to drop significantly. And because dairying…

Yes, and I believe many of us are on that same page. No more herd increases does not mean dairy industry poverty.

It's not a zero-sum thing, more about realigning the incentives…

How are you planning to make up for that loss? Which service are you going to cut? Which school are you going to close? Are you going to put a duty on big screen TVs? or smartphones? or cars?

About 12 billion dollars…

BULLCRAP

And stop pretending that's what I said.

What I said is that it should be possible to make cows not produce methane which would make dairying significantly cleaner. But that would require research which, yes would require money.

Cleaner dairying.

More importantly cleaner…

The whole point of polluter-pays is to make it more expensive to pollute, and by not imposing…

And unfortunately it hasn't swayed Tony Abbott one bit, and probably never will.

We should thank our lucky stars for now that Washington…

Belatedly.

Quite.

2013 was the hottest year on record in Australia and all but one of the last ten years was 0.50 degrees C above average. More here.

Yes, this. Reducing herd numbers is a good…

But isn't this thread about carbon?

Water quality is a whole other issue and unlike burps farmers can do something about water so it make sense to incentivize them to actually do it (aka massive fines).

FWIW my opinion about…

Of course. Because that's one area where I know it can do some good. But feel free to suggest other options.

polluter-pays market based system

Sorry Kier but I am unconvinced that this will do anything other than make it more expensive to farm. Note…

No, just proposing a large spend up on research that will benefit the dairy industry, to be paid for by tax payers --- as opposed to the implementation of a polluter-pays market based system…

Most of my colleagues and I would argue that if we can improve efficiencies we can get the same yield from less land with less environmental harm. That is certainly my aim in life and work and I haven't met any genetic engineers…

Ok I see. But since most of our biggest export earners go to China I'm not certain that it's true.

But somehow I have come across as suggesting we do nothing.…

most of our staples are actually not even remotely similar to their natural counterparts. the majority of the main…

Re GMOs: this 1. is not needed: genetic knowledge means that choosing varieties of grasses that are drought reisistant, or better suited for cattle digestive systems so they don’t burp so much is now quite quick.. and is using nature, not disregarding or corrupting it.

This…

It’s not silly to think that the latter would drive the former, though, as Che Tibby says. Also? We’ll be chased from using petrochemicals eventually anyway because of…

But I have a helluva problem if this means we go on multiplying dairy herds beyond the carrying capacity of the land. We only have so much fresh water,…

Thought they'd probably have more non-market-reliant solutions.

I think the result of this will be a flowering of recycling and improvements in manufacture. Batteries may become more expensive, but unlike fossil fuels, metal can be reused.

According to http://www.waste-management-world.com/articles/print/volume-12/issue-4/features/the-lithium-battery-recycling-challenge.html lithium in batteries is completely recyclable, but "Recycled lithium is as much as five times the cost of lithium produced from the least costly brine based process."

Part of…

we'll just have to make do with buying stuff nationally, or near-nationally, instead of getting disposable paperback books air-freighted from the UK...

should solve the transport debate…

Not sure you're hearing me. I'm talking about the business/marketing consequences of NZ being seen to be doing nothing much to address climate change. Which has nothing to do with transferability…

Oh, ok. Agree

I agree with Lilith that intensification of dairying especially in Canterbury is bad.
Although what we have is more than enough, farmers eye…

Agreed. After all, isn't that how regular petrol cars developed? I very much doubt a Model T is anywhere near as fuel efficient as a Mondeo, and I'm sure the technology used to…

I agree. But the powerplant and computer management in early cars seemed to be less robust and hence the early models were turned over more frequently than conventional. I don't think it's a huge issue…

Really? I had thought lithium batteries got contaminated by long use and were not recyclable into new batteries.

No I mean quite the opposite. Because it would only make a few percent difference to our (renewable) electricity usage we SHOULD…

Why China? I thought countries like Denmark were way ahead in wind power, for example.

I'm not sure China's heavy investment in nuclear power would go down terribly well in NZ. And for all the investment in renewables and nuclear, China's…

It would, nonetheless, make a difference. I am uncomfortable with the argument that because an action doesn't help all that much we shouldn't bother trying it at…

But didn't we used to have a much more extensive rail network?…

Our rail infrastructure sucks, slow track mostly. Trucks are more flexible and roads are cheaper to make, but trucks destroy roads. I'm guessing we just don't have the throughput to make constructing a good rail freight…

what do you know about using trains for freight instead of big stinky trucks?

As I've said at least three times now there is a good case for doing something to be part of the worldwide community. But unless what we do to reduce emissions can be transferred to the big emissions producers then it…

I heard somewhere that if all the cars (not trucks) in NZ were electric it would make only a few percent difference to our total electricity usage.

The only issue I have with electric cars is I…

I disagree, however, with your view that the Herald should continue to run this sort of crap (they have a long history of giving Chris de…

Our customers overseas are unlikely to buy that argument, nor our trade competitors who would be delighted to win their business.

As we move past the neolib 'consensus' that has plagued our politicians, there are options other than…

Let's sell that off, eh

the ETS is at best a mitigation strategy, and at worst a papal indulgence. the sort of strategy politicans love because it has the appearance of…

I think this is the bit I've been failing to communicate. So far all…

how much is that actually going to change behaviour? households absorb that cost every year with minimal grumbling."

The point is that any tax or ETS requirement that…

there is a sliver of hope the world could stay near a 1°C goal if there were a bilateral agreement between the US and China—the world’s two biggest carbon emitters. Such a deal would need to immediately…

yeah, totes legit.

for the doubters here's a question: how much would a carbon tax put up the cost of fuel or fertilizer? 3%? 5%?

how much is that actually going to change behaviour? households absorb that…

Weirdly enough, industries do that. I know Made In Dagenham isn't a documentary, but folks were seriously arguing that equal pay for women would send the global economy screaming into the void. As it turned…

There is, and I'm not disagreeing with that. Where I differ is that I don't see the ETS or even a blunt carbon tax as the solution…

but the problematic atmospheric CO2 is primarily taken from subterranean sources.”

There is roughly twice as much carbon in the biosphere in organic form than…

already happening. google reports of "arctic sea methane bubbling". example

so let's work that thru for a second. this implies that reforesting >35% of what humans have deforested could return CO2 to below pre-industrial levels.

but…

As soon as all the trapped methane under the artic tundra starts escaping as the permafrost melts, shit is going to get extremely real.

That's right, this is embodied energy which can in turn be calculated as embodied carbon (dioxide). It's significant. And NZ is…

Let's not forget the carbon emitted from all the imported tellies,…

I look forward to reading it. But my basic attitude to dairying in Canterbury is that it's not dairy country. It can't possibly be sustainable in the medium to…

but it wasn't ever intended to address the tonnes of carbon already in the atmosphere, and was never going to move quickly enough…

It's actually worse than that — read Rebecca Macfie's excellent feature in this week's Listener. It's not all negative either --…

Of increasing financialisation of their industry, perhaps, and trying to compete with big corporate farmers. Over the last decade, big banks have been lending to farmers just like homeowners, underpinned by expectations of perpetual capital gain in land values.…

I'm expecting in our future, exports higher in ideas than molecules will be worth more. Don't thank that's such a radical projection is it?

The ETS has been compromised, but it could be fixed:

http://euanmason.blogspot.co.nz/2013/12/why-our-emissions-trading-scheme-is.html

And so is full democracy.

Waimakariri mayor David Ayers:
"The rural communities feel very engaged and that they are having their say over water planning, so I would hate to see the democratic model back if that slows that progress."
source

Seriously,…

I can’t see where anyone is doing that Bart, this is a straw person.

Again, I'm not keen on the damage done by dairying. But I'm also dubious about…

I haven't read Rodney Hide's column but can pretty…

Like the one originally proposed, you mean..

For some reason just not doing more of the same shit is beyond the imagination of many public commentators and politicians.…

Ah. So there is real promise there. Rod…

However, this is what should be giving us all pause for thought: the massive increases in NZ emissions since 1990.

The Canterbury Plains are rich soils in a dry climate perfect for cropping, currently being replaced with intensive dairying made possible with government-funded irrigation using our super-pure artesian water.

And when our regional council tried to put the…

This is the whole problem with saving the planet. Everybody wants it not to have to apply to them. Or not now, maybe later.
No…

We do. But a lot of our soils are not that rich, we invented superphosphate and top-dressing pastures for a reason. But we do have water.

Our really rich soils are mostly used for horticulture…

There is an argument to be made for all industries being equal. But I'm not convinced. For NZ, export industries are inherently more valuable than purely domestic industries, at least they are if we actually want to be able to buy a smartphone. If any industry is…

exactly. the problem ain't the cows, it's the fertilisers.

and the cars.

and the ocean full of plastic.

A big, crude oil-powered lie at that.

This…

Aye, I don't believe many of the changes proposed would cripple dairying. But I still would be cautious about altering a major export earner. Doesn't mean I would want changes just that I'd be cautious.

It's hard to express how frustrating this is.

The moment we change our attitude to GM these things will become realistic.…

A lot of Kyoto-sceptics seem to be part of a wider culture war movement that still thinks the Soviet Union never broke up.

There are a lot…

The scientific community is also riven with political in-fighting for scarce resources and patronage. I know one CSO…