Dear Mr Rahman, thank you for your e-mail about our story, which was taken from…

As an atheist I too am becoming increasingly intolerant of prayer at meetings and conferences and other non-religious activities.

Jacqui – who needs to be an atheist to be in the amen corner on that one? I take my religion seriously enough to think there's a place and a time…

Lets not look into the hearts of man & I’d get slapped if I tried to do this to women anyway.…

As an atheist I too am…

Ben, I think there would be a market for a car that hadn't been developed properly but looked cool and went really fast.

Indeed, many of the popular facets of religion seem to me to be outsourcing personal responsibility to an invisible 'higher power'. One of the prime assumptions of…

Ben, I think there would be a market for a car that hadn't been developed properly but looked cool and went really fast.
Problem being that when Vista crashes, it doesn't take out the family of four in the oncoming lane.

Yeah and ain’t this the rub – As software…

Ben, I think there would be a market for a car that hadn't been developed properly but looked cool and went really fast.

Problem being that when Vista crashes, it doesn't take out the family of four in the oncoming lane.

very cost-effective price.

Well getting closer to the original topic, that price maybe around $200 per school PC for a three year licence, whether or not they use MSOffice. The Min of Ed so only 40% of these school PCs actually use MS Office.

Not such a great deal for…

1, 3, 4, 6: *nix. They did it better before the others did it at all, and now they've got GUIs for it too.
2, 7: Playstation, etc. PCs simply aren't in the same class.

That may all be true but my point was that the Windows XP PC is…

1. Price
2. Simplicity, ease of use
3. Breadth of applications
4. Differing uses
5. Out of the box functionality
6. User base, support
7. Reliability

1, 3, 4, 6: *nix. They did it better before the others did it at all, and now they've got GUIs for it too.…

I feel that using Mac or Win for education places an IT tax on the nation now. Kids should not be educated to expect a proprietary system to be available in the workplace or HE in order for them to be able to word…

...the problem of crap Microsoft products is more the fault of customers of Microsoft than themselves. If people hadn't poured billions their way as reward for shonky practices...

...led me to believe the discussion was about how foolish MS customers are.

It's not about…

Do you really want young children in the 21st Century spending their time typing documents and working on spreadsheets ... or pursuing PowerPointlessness . . .

Hell no – but I have a funny feeling that Steve Ballmer does.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4779/excelyd2.jpg

It's also not elitist rubbish to call Windows an operating system rather than a computer. If you like Windows, cool, keep it. I do myself. It's horses…

I guess I'm saying, much though I hate to, that the problem of crap Microsoft products is more the fault of customers of Microsoft than themselves. If people hadn't poured billions their way as reward for shonky practices then we'd probably have stronger (and less feature rich) software today.

Hmmm,…

]]> Wed, 30 May 2007 20:27:03 +1200 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-brown-bigots-etc/?p=19484#post19484 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-brown-bigots-etc/?p=19484#post19484 Wed, 30 May 2007 20:23:06 +1200 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-brown-bigots-etc/?p=19483#post19483 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-brown-bigots-etc/?p=19483#post19483

Bokononism for state religion!

Nah... if you're going for Vonnegut I'm more enchanted by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sirens_of_Titan[|The Church of God The Utterly Indifferent]].

Oh shit... I rather liked Dame Barbara Goodman's attitude to the whole prayer thing, when she was an Auckland City Councilor – which, if my memory serves, was that she didn't really think it was that big a deal, but as a Jew she wasn't going to participate…

(Actually, the TVR pretty much was that car).

Bokononism for state religion!

No, the obvious choice is Church of God with Signs Following. I admit the absence of snakes would seem an impediment, but possibly whitebait could serve in a indigenous, transubstantiationesque fashion.

It turns out it's not a policy, or a media release, or a statement, or a suggestion, or ... anything except an utterly innocuous,…

Yes there are collections at other churches but not the Bay Corp contracts.

I am asking because I am gobsmacked if this means that the tithing is kind of fierce in Dustiny.
Can you explain this a bit more Michael?

Soppy of me I know but I would vote for…

As a programmer myself, I'm inclined to think that the state of software these days is much more market driven than because of bad engineering.

I'm under constant pressure from sales and marketing to release stuff that just isn't ready.…

Yes there are collections at other churches but not the Bay Corp contracts.

Can I still claim to have religious tolerance?

the bish is all about railing against all the things the bible doesn't like. "christian country" is a dogwhistle for straight men calling the shots.

"I get a little annoyed when someone feels the need to patronise folks at 'multicultral' gatherings by hideously mispronouncing a simple greeting in a dozen different languages without pausing for breath"

Heh – for some reason this reminds me of a Jeremy Wells sketch from Eating Media Lunch

I always…

According to wikipedia the word "Atua" was used for pre-colonial Polynesian gods as well as our colonialist repressive sort.

Perhaps someone who…

I remember one of the TV arts programmes of the past commissioned some NZ musos to do better. Turns out it's quite tricky. Gareth Farr produced something more song than anthem, and quite a complicated song at that. This…

If cars were able to get me home a million times faster than they could in the 70s, could store 100 millions times as much stuff, and could fit in my pocket, could do basically everything, I think I'd probably not be too bitter on them.

Yeah. Standard response, from…

By the way, the tools were…

I think we should opt for an open-source Mac/PC/Linux compatible National Anthemn that is inclusive of atheists.

Mac/PC/Linux compatible

"Platform independent" is the term. Java is platform independent....dunno what the stats are about java, but chances are if your computer just stopped to catch it's breath for a while (ie…

But if you happen to believe there is no god then the whole anthem becomes a bit much – and the Maori version of it even more so.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I get a little annoyed when someone feels the need to patronise folks at 'multicultral'…

At least it's not a terrifyingly nationalistic anthem. Other countries expound on their plans to overrun the world.

'All other countries have inferior potassium . . .'

Gods ok, it's his bloody fan clubs that piss me off.

Maybe we could all pitch in and buy Bishop Brian one of these...

I wonder how long before an argument breaks out on PA System about interpreting those stats?

No bet, you can't misinterpret stats*. And these aren't too controversial anyway.

*if you agree with me :)

The instability is a function of how much new stuff we're getting every day. It would be nice if it all came out perfect from the word go, but it would cost a lot more, and we'd be waiting a lot longer.

The first operating system that Microsoft delivered was…

The number and proportion of people indicating that they had no religion continued to increase in the 2006 Census. In 2006, 1,297,104 people (34.7 percent) stated that they had no religion, compared with 1,028,052 people (29.6 percent) in the 2001 Census.

compared to

In the…

The Census figures on religious affiliation , if anyone is interested, are here.

I wonder how long before an argument breaks out on PA System about interpreting those stats?

or maybe the females are all working during the day

Perhaps if you promise your husband more interesting recipes he'll let you have a computer in the kitchen?

LOLCODE? http://lolcode.com/

I hate myself for hearting that site so, so much.

This whole event is going to publicise to a much wider audience the joys of using alternative office software to MS Office. Anyway, it is a bloody good…

oh my good God.

Triple Star has refference to the maori baskets of knowledge that the writer knew about but hidden/overwritten knowledge and exclude maori.

Now please be upstanding for the 1st and…

And can I register my immense distaste at and irritation with the crying-little-kid-my-pet-is-dead-because-mummy-and-daddy-didn't-get-kitty-insurance ad at the top of the page?

Ahh, but its gone to a non-denominational open source kitty heaven...
A bit more seriously....I'd previously concluded the theological fudge of 'God Defend NZ' is one of the things in…

Macs are cute but in my mind you pay a premium for that cuteness if you happen to live outside of the USA.

The way I heard a friend put it: "I'm not a Mac fan. But I am an OSX fan."

I'm glad the prices are gradually coming down…

argh, the typo and grammar gods.

That's what you get for not sacrificing a goat before each comment.

I didn't, and wrote BSA instead of ASA, thanks for the catch Graeme

The advertiser bought 60,000 impressions as an auction item at the recent fundraiser for our kids

those are savvy people because we love our kitty kats at PA

If cars were able to get me home a million times faster than they could in the 70s, could store 100 millions…

An intriguing example of somewhere where voluntary compliance actually works – the Advertising Standards Authority doesn't actually have any power.

Yep, the ASA doesn't just act as a cover for its own industry, and its decisions are often quite interesting (if presented in a frankly insane fashion on its website…

I have spent the last 20 years jumping through hoops to win contracts by proving that I and my colleagues can develop…

Conversely, my wife loves LaTeX and detests Word.

Now there's a case-sensitive statement.

And can I register my immense distaste at and irritation with the crying-little-kid-my-pet-is-dead-because-mummy-and-daddy-didn't-get-kitty-insurance ad at the top of the page?

The advertiser bought 60,000 impressions as an auction item at the recent fundraiser for our kids, so it's helping Leo get an education and a future (even when he doesn't…

I thought it was North, Rangitoto and Waiheke?

I'm with Paul. We have three Macs and a PC for the kids' gaming, and the PC has been more grief than the other three put together.

Yeh but that's PEBKAC which is hardly something Bill Gates should take the blame for.

How would we feel if we had 1 mechanic for every 60 cars in society, and we had to phone one second day to help us get home?

We replaced our English cars with Japanese ones, and those days were but a distant memory. Sorry British Leyland.

Since we moved…

I want the next generation to be something other than MS users who blindly call helpdesk any time their file won't format properly.

I want the next generation to have computers that format properly without people having to call the helpdesk.

I mean, many places will run about 1 technical…

The illuminati are in your BSA raising your denominator.

ASA.

An intriguing example of somewhere where voluntary compliance actually works – the Advertising Standards Authority doesn't actually have any power.

There is some discussion, with no official explanation, of the meaning of "Pacific's triple star". Unofficial explanations range from New Zealand's three biggest islands (North, South, and Stewart Island/Rakiura), to the three stars on the flag of Te Kooti, a Māori…

And can I register my immense distaste at and irritation with the crying-little-kid-my-pet-is-dead-because-mummy-and-daddy-didn't-get-kitty-insurance ad at the top of the page?

Is that what that is?! I only get the crying kid and the "Pet Medicare" showing up in my browser (for some reason, ::cough:: IE ::cough::) With nothing between the…

rodgerd:
And can I register my immense distaste at and irritation with the crying-little-kid-my-pet-is-dead-because-mummy-and-daddy-didn't-get-kitty-insurance ad at the top of the page?

Me too. A sneaky form of kiddie-porn.

Sounds like a cricket metaphor.

" Say, what is 'Pacifics Triple Star' anyway?

North, South and Stewart"

Always figured 'quadruple' didn't scan and the sly old dog was betting that no one would listen to the lyrics.

The current state of ignorance and outright fear present in todays adults can only change if you expose children to something different.

That requires people to teach who are flexible, able to update their education on the fly, aren't scared by technology changing... I'd tentatively say that most teachers and…

Not many (perhaps any) comments from females either....looks RB's identified a means by which to get (approx) half the population to opt out.

or maybe the females are all working during the day
;)

I'm an Atheist myself. I find it mildly annoying. In an ideal world, I'd like to see that and the bloody parliamentary prayer out the door.

Agreed. The most irritated I've ever been with one friend was when she blithely insisted that because the anthem didn't specify a particular flavour…

North, South and Stewart"

Surely it's North, South, and West? In preparation for when we preemptively invade Ozzie before their terrorists destroy our World Cup chances.

I agree.

I also agree that most folks can't cope with the simplest changes in computing environment.

but that's my point

The ability to handle software (a bit) and…

But if you happen to believe there is no god then the whole anthem becomes a bit much – and the Maori version of it even more so.

For me the anthem can be consdiered inclusive of most religious folks, but what about non-religious folks?

I'm an Atheist myself. I…

Say, what is 'Pacifics Triple Star' anyway?

North, South and Stewart

That's the generally accepted answer though Max Cryer dedicated a few pages to it in one of his books as there could be a few different explanations (none of which I can remember).

But there's a reason why we don't have any kind of analogue to the Shankill Road or the Kuta Beach bombings or Kosovo in our history books.

My wife's grandmother's father used to tell her tales of his dad taking him to the Auckland Domain so that he could be…

North, South and Stewart

Stuart? Screw them! I'm singing 'guard Pacific's double star' from here on in.

I felt just like the Mensa group who took over Springfield in that Simpsons episode with Stephen Hawking. Take that ya…

Sorry to hear about your dinner table discussions.

I didn't find anything in there that the large contingent of Muslim immigrants would find really alienating.

But if you happen to believe there is no god then the whole anthem becomes a bit much – and the Maori version…

Say, what is 'Pacifics Triple Star' anyway?

North, South and Stewart

You win the prize for the scariest sounding dinner table. I think I'd rather say Grace than discuss OSS, agnostic though I am.

It's about the only dinner conversation I get that doesn't involve the phrase 'hit points'.

Say, what is 'Pacifics Triple Star' anyway?

Fortunately there are millions of nerds who have the strangest desire to show you the answer.

Totally agreed – I have a couple of mates who work for open-source organizations. I even did a bit of Moodle programming at one point, and I'm far from a good programmer.

I don't…

"That whole 'bonds of love, at thy feet' thing takes on a whole new light if you're picturing a sort of pagan Horned God type deity too. That's the sort of mental picture one needs to drag one's sorry arse through yet another school assembly."

So *that's* what the…

If that doesn't work he could always run TV ads for PA based around girls in bikinis.

If he could get the girls from the Tui brewery? Phwoah.

Not in MS Visual C++ there isn't. But that's not one of the good things about it ;-). But yeah, the real barrier to debugging open source stuff is "why the hell would I…

Great! Let's kick up Civ IV and see how well it runs!

Good point. I suppose most households care as much about the operating system on their computers as they do about the embedded software in their microwave or video recorder, as long as it works, most of the time.…

Not many (perhaps any) comments from females either....looks RB's identified a means by which to get (approx) half the population to opt out.

a) I've been having the 'Bish Tamaki is a moron' discussion so often the last few days I'm all worn down in the indignation stakes

b) If…

I guess my thinking was that with the continued expansion of computers into our lives, the ability to understand how software works might well become as much a part of life as say keyboard skills are now.

The problem with that is the old saw, that sufficiently advanced technology is…

See, unless someone is a complete vandal, there is really no reason why a MS environment needs to be like that. It's easy enough to stay trouble free if you want to. I'd say it's no more trouble than my Linux desktop tbh.

I'm with Paul. We have three Macs…

Danyl, you weren't at the GOVIS conference by any chance?

No – I work in a biology department and mostly go to biology and biotech related conferences.

Just wondering because they showed that youTube vid at it.

Jon: "Not many (perhaps any) comments from females either"

How do you know…

Yes, and we could require that everyone learn to replace a piston before they learn to drive, or milk a cow before they learn to make tea.

Hmmm point taken, although back when cars were less reliable we pretty much did teach children how to fix them.

I…

As far as open-source goes, I've taught computing…

The resulting .docs are near-idiotproof.
So, they can nearly be opened by idiots?

Hey, if I can open them, anyone can : )

Counts on this topic so far.
God botherers 25
Computer geeks 20

I wonder how many of the people posting are in both camps?

Not many (perhaps any) comments from females either....looks RB's identified a means by which to get (approx) half the population to opt out.

Dim, it's calling your integer 'value' that scares me most about that code.

Good point – I've been using good old $perl for too long.

Danyl, you weren't at the GOVIS conference by any chance?

No – I work in a biology department and mostly go to biology and biotech…

Ben: I became pretty cynical about the general level of Office/Word expertise amongst the 20+ age group.

I'm glad to tell you I'm in the 50+ age group, there is hope.

Joe: As I need to exchange .doc files with a number of users on a variety of OSes I've…

Grace (Parnell)
NZ is a Christian nation. If we went to the Middle East we wouldn't expect them to become Christian for us.

Jesus was clearly born in the other Middle East, not the one Grace is refering to.

Or we could have pastafarianism, just so all those religious people who insist atheism is a religion can be right.

Leading the ODT today, as…

Why does a nation/country (I'll let others decide that one) need a religion?
Many religions, however, seem desperate to own countries

I think that might've been my point. A nation doesn't need…

It's a tragic fact that for me those letters will forever stand for "Otago Daily Times""

I thought it was a computer game – "Or Die Trying". Kind of poignant.

What I meant by "understand the differences" is that 1) There is such a thing as a file type, 2) That MS Office Word uses (generally) .doc, 3) that OpenOffice uses something different, .odt, and 4) that OO can save as .doc if necessary.

I used to push OpenOffice…

The need to understand the difference is almost irrelevant, as long as you save the document as .doc then it can be read and edited on almost any machine, unlike saving in most "new" Microsoft formats.

Not my humble experience. Even with Word for Mac's inbuilt compatability check, the resulting…

On the other hand I'm not going to spend all my spare time rooting spyware and viruses out of my family's computers.

See, unless someone is a complete vandal, there is really no reason why a MS environment needs to be like that. It's easy enough to stay trouble free…

regarding your comment about open source

....and a total freaking nightmare for the other 99.999999% of the population.

I think you're exactly right. But maybe if you exposed children to perl etc earlier you might just get a society where a larger percentage was comfortable creating/modifying their own…

In order to install a current Oracle version on a current Redhat version

Because installing Oracle is noted as both a common task for end-users, and trivial to do on any platform, it represents an excellent test of the platform in question.

Personally I prefer trying to upgrade my Linux…

P'raps it was maintained by the sub-editors...

Mind you, it had it's place – I wish a certain new blog was behind it (see Cracker) so certain editors could see the worth of asking young journos to write such stuff.

a .odt file

It's a tragic fact that for me those letters will forever stand for "Otago Daily Times"

But if I did, I would kneel down and ask him to intervene when it came to Brian Tamaki.

(sorry Nick)

Wouldn't know. Was talking about schools anyway. Haven't used a Mac since I left university. But they were great there....

Schools can be considered quite large IT enterprises nowadays. Thin clients in a virtual server environment will be far and away the cheapest option for desktop mgt and some schools,…

Personally I would prefer a minimally deist version:
__"God of bosons and of quarks,
the Big Bang's long gone…

re OpenOffice, just so long as you can explain and people will understand the differences between a .doc and a .odt file I'm…

You're ever gonna have to write a line of code if you don't wanna, as far as…

That's the good stuff, a lot of which have corporations behind them.

In order to install a current Oracle version on a current Redhat version, I had to:
– note what happened when the installer crashed
– Google…

and then: If we decide on one can it be democratically changed later on?

And big gay Dalvainius Prime did more for modern Maori culture Tamaki or the Harawira mob, I would submit;

Amen to that, though I do wonder if the great Dalvanius would be happy to be remembered as 'gay'. As he famously – and proudly – once claimed: 'I'm trisexual -…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX0-nqRmtos

I would like to respond to a few other comments above, in particular Danyl's as we are at the coal face of supporting Linux desktops and servers in corporate environments.

The short version of my response is...your information is outdated.

Maybe – I haven't done IT support for many years…

I'm arguing that God Defend New Zealand, which was our National Hymn before it became one of our National Anthems, invokes a Christian God. No, it's not explicit, but nor are __Abide…

In my experience open source software tends to be really great for people with degrees in computer science

Yep done a bit of this. It was good to learn after years of working in IT, just what people with formal education in these topics learnt. I…

"But you have to keep buying new ones, because the new ones are cuter than the old ones."

Heh, yup, cunning buggers. It's a question of taste though. I prefer my computers, and my cars, to have the meat hanging out of them for all to see. It's 7337…

And big gay Dalvainius Prime did more for modern Maori culture Tamaki or the Harawira mob, I would submit; shame on so-called Maori rights campaigners for shitting on Maori who are insufficiently Christian or heterosexual.

We might also bear in mind that Tariana Turia voted against the Civil Union Bill.…

The anthem was written in the 1870s when one could state that we were a Christian nation because the vast majority of us would have been. In fact I suspect one would have had to profess to a Christian faith to be admitted into normal society.

Hum... I think that's…

Wouldn't know. Was talking about schools anyway. Haven't used a Mac since I left university. But they were great there....

"Considering the user base and the breadth of applications it is superb, especially over the last 4-5 years since Windows Software Update Services (WSUS) was implemented."

I deliberately switched off automatic updating because I can't take the downtime it caused. I'd rather pick when Microsoft…

A midway point surely could be using OpenOffice and Firefox for Windows in schools. It's not that much of a culture shock. Windows as a workstation OS is still a good call for the meantime. Or Macs. They're cuter.

But you have to keep buying new ones, because the new…

Or Macs. They're cuter.

Hmmm, so running 1000-2000 Mac clients in the enterprise will be cheaper than a MS environment?

Yep, the people still rule, thankfully. And as long as they're using Windows and Office at home, we'll still be using it in the work place.

Yes, although one wonders how many people would be using Office at home if they couldn't nick copies.

Brian never seems to regard Judeo-Christian…

I think it's a bit bloody rich of the Herald, of all papers, to be pointing out the spelling mistakes of others. There's usually at least a couple of total shockers to be found daily within it's pages.

But they are fans of open-source proof reading, and you have to…

"If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me." – as an American politician once said (or probably didn't, but a good line sticks).

There's an inconclusive discussion on that topic on the Snopes board.

It did make for a good Muttonbirds song though.

Hence my point that it's a massive task. But…

Here's 3 things to ponder about Microsoft.

1. Version Control
You can hiss and whinge as…

It's only a side point what our song says anyway. I occasionally hum along to Ravi Shankar but that doesn't make me Vedic. I just like the music. I also like "By the rivers of Babylon" but that doesn't make me Jewish, or a Zionist.

Might you be a Rastafarian?

Ben – the word Christian may not appear in God Defend New Zealand, but the invocation of a Christian God (or at least a non-secular one) is pretty clear once you go past the first verse.

But the words were penned by Thomas Bracken, a freemason. Freemasons aren't fussy about…

And in my experience open source software delivers the same if not a better "user experience" than Microsoft's alternatives – Firefox, Thunderbird, any number of alternatives to Windows Media…

"Men of *every creed* and race
Gather here before thy face,
Asking thee to bless this place,
God defend our free land"

Verse 5 says "make us faithful unto thee", and " Preaching love and truth to…

PS Read a New Zealand history book, Brian. Watch out for the Jews!

Yes. I've been waiting for someone to pick up on that. Brian never seems to regard Judeo-Christian as being sufficiently in-the-tent. Jews too, it would seem, are "defiling our soil".

In answer to Michael, yes, we developed…

Including the freedom to believe religious claptrap of all kinds and the freedom to protest with bad spelling.

Indeed, Simon. But at the risk of sounding like a slightly hysterical mayor ;), those freedoms come with a few responsibilities. Including, in the case of Bishop Tamiki, to make arguments from…

I'm happy to hear positive comments from various…

However I was listening to national radio this morning where the Ministry of Education person pointed out that this was curriculum computers, teachers and other staff would still have Microsoft on their computers.

That's a bit of a…

Yes, the British Parliament has required the sovereign to be "in communion with the Church of England" for a little over three hundred years. (Which, to be pedantic, is a slightly different beast from being an Anglican. An Episcopalian, for example, would be no more eligible to become our…

what makes NZ special (to me anyway) is how we truly do open our doors to anyone who wants to turn up (well mostly). when i was a…

Why does god appear in both of our national anthems if we are not a Christian state?

Good question. We are not a christian nation we are a secular nation.

On that basis I agree entirely we should absolutely ditch the national anthem (both versions) and replace it with something…

Ties to the Queen and that pesky constitution that doesn't exist but kind of does with all the same leaps of faith required to get out of bed on a Sunday…