Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Bishop Brian: It's worse than you think

Rich Lock

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 13:15:22 +1200

Steve Braunias has an entertaining crack at political slash-fic

I giggled. But I felt dirty afterwards.

Sacha

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 12:31:12 +1200

Off-topic, but Steve Braunias has an entertaining crack at political slash-fic set at Paul Henry's bach and featuring a confused Darren Hughes and a visitor to Hawkes Bay.

"Lick it all up," she said.

"Mmmmm," I said.

She put the spoon in her own mouth, and sucked it.

The curtains…

Peter grower

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 12:27:21 +1200

The pope Giovanni ..................... is the anti-christ ....... thats the word from the seventh day adventists.

And good christian folk like that would'nt lie.

They are all cultish.

But then again they do seem to fill a need for some people.

Some flaw in human nature seems to leave people…

recordari

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 12:22:19 +1200

Brilliant – smart and funny.

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 12:09:08 +1200

Still, the Black Panthers did the
same salute I guess.
The Black Panthers had arguably better social programmes – Breakfasts for Children, alleviation of poverty, etc...
Destiny are barely making a fist of it...

Sacha

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 11:39:16 +1200

And Holmes has just pulled a Lhaws

Salient point in the comments – why doesn't the blathering narcissist take a look in the mirror before he goes on about poor parenting?

Sacha

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 11:31:53 +1200

Dave Armstrong knocks it out of the park in today's DomPost

Brilliant – smart and funny.

Alex Coleman

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 10:14:41 +1200

Dave Armstrong knocks it out of the park in today's DomPost...

Harley! Harley! Harley-lujah!

Wins.

recordari

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 10:06:05 +1200

And I hope your not causing suffering to geese in your culinary adventures.

No more than they deserve. Filthy little vermin.

andin

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 09:48:45 +1200

You're so literal
Only when it comes to imaginary figures.
And I hope your not causing suffering to geese in your culinary adventures.
Whoops, I was being literal again.

recordari

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 09:05:45 +1200

Thats bound to lead to more trouble than its worth.

You're so literal. I believe I was being facetious. But I'll keep practising until I get it down Pâté.

andin

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 08:22:41 +1200

sanctify a God EH?
Thats bound to lead to more trouble than its worth.
Little druggie Paul has been on this journey from wild youth to senile old duffer for a while now. Pity is, the endpart will be public and done in private, amongst the olives. I think he…

recordari

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 07:46:24 +1200

Holmes has just pulled a Lhaws.
Jesus H Christ!

If he is somehow the voice of a section of society, then we need to sanctify a God pronto so they can help us all.

Kumara Republic

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 01:19:00 +1200

And Holmes has just pulled a Lhaws. What's next, coloured triangles?

(Hat tip to the Dimpost.)

andin

Sun, 12 Jun 2011 18:47:59 +1200

You mean this?
damn my incompetence.... yes

bmk

Sun, 12 Jun 2011 18:15:51 +1200

Religions start out as cults.
Exactly and once the cult has enough followers they become a religion and have all these rights that cults don't have. IMO they should be treated equally.

Susannah Shepherd

Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:12:24 +1200

And more to the point, I suspect most faith-based or church affiliated social service contractors are scrupulous about their legal obligations and survive being audited up the wazoo — as they should.

Yes, I think that's likely.

I haven't worked on the issues for the community and voluntary sector for…

nzlemming

Sun, 12 Jun 2011 16:45:20 +1200

Religions start out as cults.

bmk

Sun, 12 Jun 2011 13:26:20 +1200

I tend to think Destiny church are a cult.

To me the only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of believers.

recordari

Sun, 12 Jun 2011 13:24:55 +1200

The URL contained a malformed video ID.
Sorry about that.

You mean this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2XhhuM9GZo
Harder to relate to Density though. Love that bassline, and used to love dancing to this also.

Like the Pope?
Apparently the Dalai Lama thinks that's not our problem.

"God exists or God does not exist.…

giovanni tiso

Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:16:26 +1200

Cult spotters basic 101 – A leader who has a direct line to ‘god’

Like the Pope?

Alex Coleman

Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:00:23 +1200

While flicking past tv3 this AM, saw the Bish correcting what some "commentators" had said with regard to what God told Moses. The commentator was an OT author.

andin

Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:25:29 +1200

"We work in secret, we exist in shadow. And we dress in black."

Sorta like Will Smiths songwriting “team” on it. Yeah awright Im taking a cheap shot. Who gives a fuck about god when there is funk like this around to be recycled endlessly with new lyrics. You go…

Peter grower

Sun, 12 Jun 2011 09:02:09 +1200

I tend to think Destiny church are a cult.

Brian Tamaki is a ‘god appointed bishop’?.

God told him to start a church and be the bishop?.

Cult spotters basic 101 – A leader who has a direct line to ‘god’ ……… what else is god going to tell them…

Craig Ranapia

Sun, 12 Jun 2011 00:21:33 +1200

I do recall telling the truth being quite high on the list of stuff good Christians were supposed to do.

And more to the point, I suspect most faith-based or church affiliated social service contractors are scrupulous about their legal obligations and survive being audited up the wazoo — as…

Susannah Shepherd

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 21:46:42 +1200

Putting it another way: would you think it ok if the Battersea Dog's Home or the NZ Govt hired you on the basis of your willingness to give them back 10% of your gross pay?

Not really, particularly if it were the government... But the original point was about whether…

Rob Stowell

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 19:40:15 +1200

whether I spend my salary on tithes, a 52” plasma TV, my mortgage or the Battersea Dogs Home is up to me and not my employer.
Well, it should be. But if your employer is the destiny church, they might consider it is up to them. Up to the point,…

Islander

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 19:38:37 +1200

YEESSSSS!!!

nzlemming

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 19:07:09 +1200

Separately, does anyone else note the irony that the biopic of His Holiness President for Life Dr Tamariki could be called "The Life of Brian"?

nzlemming

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 19:04:44 +1200

How does a guy called "jesus" have any connection to the Christian Corporation?

giovanni tiso

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 19:01:53 +1200

I was raised a Presbyterian. I got the impression many in the church don't count anything pre-Knox as actually Christian...

That raises interesting theological problems re: Jesus.

Heather Gaye

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 18:47:45 +1200

I got the impression many in the church don’t count anything pre-Knox as actually Christian…
Ha, interesting, I recall some churches I attending insisting same about the entire Presbyterian church (Knox college especially singled out for its allegedly liberal agenda). Wholly concur with your opinion on employee wages, btw.

Susannah Shepherd

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 17:12:33 +1200

Er, uhm. Shall we go over the Donation of Constantin again?

I was raised a Presbyterian. I got the impression many in the church don't count anything pre-Knox as actually Christian...

giovanni tiso

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 17:09:26 +1200

I do recall telling the truth being quite high on the list of stuff good Christians were supposed to do

Er, uhm. Shall we go over the Donation of Constantin again?

Susannah Shepherd

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 17:03:34 +1200

Yes 0.5% plus of course the “wages” they mentioned which of course get a nice big wet bite taken out of them by Destiny….. Unless you think that Destiny won’t be hiring Destiny members to do the work?

That’s not the point – so long as the costings for the…

Islander

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:39:05 +1200

Wanna bet?

giovanni tiso

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:32:03 +1200

Destiny gets funding for church members' wages, then tithes the wages.

The Middle Ages could sue them for plagiarism.

Russell Brown

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:30:48 +1200

It probably has more to do with Goff going a polling cycle without opening his mouth and using it as a pop up shoe store.

To quote Homer Simpson: It's funny because it's true.

Indeed. There's a certain irony about the good polling news arriving while Goff is out of…

Russell Brown

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:29:25 +1200

Yes 0.5% plus of course the "wages" they mentioned which of course get a nice big wet bite taken out of them by Destiny..... Unless you think that Destiny won't be hiring Destiny members to do the work?

That's a really good point. Destiny gets funding for church members' wages,…

Dave Waugh

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:11:53 +1200

That was my gut reaction, too, but it depends on how the contracts were written. If it was a fixed price contract and they delivered everything they promised (quantity and quality), then there's not a problem – especially as the 'profit' was only 0.5% of the total funding.

Yes 0.5%…

Paul Williams

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:06:06 +1200

As usual, I'm woefully late to enjoy this discussion as it developed. I was less inclined to criticise the politicians for attending this "service" than others, but everything I read, including here, about Destiny worries me greatly and has caused me to rethink my initial view that this was acceptable.

Martin Lindberg

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:21:42 +1200

It probably has more to do with Goff going a polling cycle without opening his mouth and using it as a pop up shoe store.

To quote Homer Simpson: It's funny because it's true.

Kyle Matthews

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 08:17:49 +1200

But I doubt the MPs’ reticence in the mainstream media was because they were worried about hypocrisy. They were worried about votes.

Well yes. I marked down all the parties that attended.

Craig Ranapia

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 23:57:45 +1200

Well, well. It looks like the latest Roy Morgan has Labour rising eight points up the polls and National dipping below absolute majority status. Cause, or correlation, one wonders?

It probably has more to do with Goff going a polling cycle without opening his mouth and using it as a…

Steve Parks

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 23:36:13 +1200

Oh, so you're saying it was the 'time and place' at the meeting, if they were going to express disagreement? Then I agree, and misunderstood your earlier point. Metiria Turei's proposed approach is the one I would have respected.

But I doubt the MPs' reticence in the mainstream media was…

Kyle Matthews

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 21:59:42 +1200

Destiny’s actually claiming profits from its Community Max projects.
That’s not normal, is it?

I would have thought that profit is part of the reason various organisations get into this business. You can meet the outcomes with less cost, you make some money. You screw up, it ends up costing…

Kyle Matthews

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 21:58:29 +1200

Being able to state a clear position on humans rights and sexuality need not mean slagging off your hosts.

Oh absolutely Russell. But they should say that in the room if they're going to say it outside. Being all nice inside, and then coming out afterwards and slagging Destiny off…

Susannah Shepherd

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 21:52:27 +1200

Destiny’s actually claiming profits from its Community Max projects.
That’s not normal, is it?

Craig Young

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 19:13:26 +1200

Well, well. It looks like the latest Roy Morgan has Labour rising eight points up the polls and National dipping below absolute majority status. Cause, or correlation, one wonders?

recordari

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 15:44:27 +1200

"We work in secret, we exist in shadow. And we dress in black."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRuHk6Drj2U&feature=related

What? It is Friday.

Sacha

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 15:28:25 +1200

I think the problem with the march was less about the black shirts and more that church members are so… vehement.

I doubt the associations would have been made without the mass raised fists and aggro attitudes. Still, the Black Panthers did the same salute I guess.

Heather Gaye

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 15:09:34 +1200

Visually effective in what sense?
To be fair, the Sallies wear not only black, but they wear army uniforms. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to want to convey an organised and united front by choosing a uniform – black, white or orange, whatever, without having people attribute designs of actual…

3410

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 15:09:31 +1200

where do you think Bishop Brian finds those suits from?

How about that shoulder-mounted batwing tramp stamp thing? Maybe it's just me, but it looks kinda Satanic.

Sacha

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 14:58:17 +1200

“a cross between Mikey Havoc and John Rowles”

ouch

recordari

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 14:51:03 +1200

BTW – where do you think Bishop Brian finds those suits from? There was a whiff of John Rowles about the whole presentation.

You're not the first to say that, and they went a step further.

As if all that’s not bad enough, there are those who think Bishop Brian…

Katita

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 14:27:52 +1200

Funnily enough it's the images of the Sallies on the front line after the Quake in Christchurch that spring to mind (don't recall seeing too many DC black shirts there). And if you're lookng for a religion that's queer, black and female friendly, without the kiddy-fiddling ... then keep looking.…

Sacha

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 12:43:53 +1200

Read the experiences relayed above of what those rallies felt like. Not "peaceful" in short.

andin

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 12:43:07 +1200

Whats a boy to do?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcrRcUDAEYw&feature=related&fmt=18

damn speed problem

Craig Ranapia

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 12:05:46 +1200

Yeah cos she was renowned for behaving just like those guys.

Just as Destiny Church is notorious for systematic and well-documented harassment, intimidation and violence against opposition political parties, unionists and Jewish-owned businesses? They torched any synagogues lately? And while Brian The Bish may have delusions of grandeur, I don't…

recordari

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:42:15 +1200

Got me! Now I wish I was one of those. Can I just call myself an academic or do I have to get a qualification?

You really want to?

andin

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:31:03 +1200

“academics not in residence”

Got me! Now I wish I was one of those. Can I just call myself an academic or do I have to get a qualification?

Sacha

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:23:31 +1200

comparing Helen Clark to Hitler, Stalin or Robert Mugabe

Yeah cos she was renowned for behaving just like those guys. Well, she was a woman in power, that's close enough for the small-willied amongst us, I guess.

Sacha

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:21:42 +1200

So appropriate, that black and white should be their colours, given that that's how they see the world.

You can imagine the thought process from the soldiers o Density – "That black didn't go down so well with the public and media; what colour shall we try for our next…

Sacha

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:18:45 +1200

peaceful

there's your problem

Sacha

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:17:16 +1200

nice

Craig Ranapia

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:00:43 +1200

Sometimes, making these comparisons is not dog-whistling but someone expressing how it genuinely made them feel. And I shared the feeling.

For the second time in 24 hours, I think I’ll just have to say “agree to disagree” and move on. But can I make one observation without anyone pulling…

3410

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:53:22 +1200

Georgina Beyer wasn't Godwinning when she likened the original march to a 'Nuremburg rally'. Not long after, the Destinymen mirror-flipped colours and resembled Klansmen minus the hoods.

So appropriate, that black and white should be their colours, given that that's how they see the world.

I can't help thinking that…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:49:56 +1200

Drizabonehead...
He wasn’t being mean about politicians – he obviously meant that his status as a demi-God was far above their earth-bound level.

and

I am not in favour of the state providing funding for the marketing initiatives of religious fanatics whose spiritual leaders ‘teachings’ are in essence hate speech.…

nzlemming

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:42:09 +1200

Actually, Craig, I was there, as Russell was, and it was my thought as well. It was not peaceful, though it may have been lawful (and let's not forget that the Nuremberg rallies were lawful in their time), and it was very threatening.

You weren't there so all you got…

nzlemming

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:33:45 +1200

I’m kinda pissed my natural career path of crazy hermit in remote, difficult to get to location, isnt a viable option anymore

There's nothing preventing that option, though these days we'd tend to call them "academics not in residence"

Craig Ranapia

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:03:23 +1200

Georgina Beyer wasn’t Godwinning when she likened the original march to a ‘Nuremburg rally’.

Oh, God, yes she was. I’m sure we thrashed this dead horse into a steaming pile of fresh jellymeat at the time, but if you’re really going to equate citizens of a democracy (however vile) holding…

andin

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:26:25 +1200

all show and charisma with very little analysis,
And shitty analogies.

and secondly, the moment you challenge them beyond the limits of their knowledge or experience – which generally isn’t particularly broad – they’ll disengage, and refer to you back to Tamaki. Destiny isn’t the only church that does this…

DexterX

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:20:12 +1200

and for his next stunt “Bishop” Brian will ................

The event is just bullshit the Destiny Church conference and the four politicians that attended are in effect endorsing Bishop Brian's vision of his own greatness. Thumbs up to Campbell live for running the story.

I can understand Jones, Henare and…

Steve Parks

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 23:01:09 +1200

I can understand why they wouldn’t do that either. To me it would be rude to accept an invitation to a church or something else, speak one thing while there, and then walk outside and say another thing to the cameras.

Why would they be in that position? What “thing”…

Jeremy Andrew

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 22:52:23 +1200

They're called deficit chickenhawks.

Boy, Ah say Boy! He's about as sharp as a pound of wet liver, that boy...

http://youtu.be/oLAxnneKXdA

Kumara Republic

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 20:30:50 +1200

And there is a term for those who cut back Women's Refuges and give it to fundy cults, and who tell us city rail loops are wasteful but holiday highways are not.

They're called deficit chickenhawks.

Sacha

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 20:06:32 +1200

Apologies if this has already been linked. Idiot/Savant on why Destiny missed out on Whanau Ora funding.

Earlier in the week, Destiny Church (most famous for organising the "Nuremberg rally" against the Civil Union Act in 2004) complained about being "discriminated against" due to not receiving more government funding.

Today,…

Kumara Republic

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 19:49:36 +1200

Speaking of charlatans, people might be interested to know that the founder of the Nation of Islam was a kiwi preacher.

I’ll get my coat…

And Sir Joh was born in Dannevirke. Luckily for us, he moved to Queensland as a kid. Not so lucky for Queensland though...

vangam

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 19:23:07 +1200

Speaking of charlatans, people might be interested to know that the founder of the Nation of Islam was a kiwi preacher.

I'll get my coat...

recordari

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 19:18:45 +1200

Was editing my post when the system went down. If it implies anything other than that I agree with this statement;

My personal take is that the negative side effects of an organisation like Destiny helping people at the very least cancel out the good that they might do.

then…

recordari

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 17:56:51 +1200

My personal take is that the negative side effects of an organisation like Destiny helping people at the very least cancel out the good that they might do. YMMV

Not much actually. My original reply made sense, as long as you didn’t read past the middle of your link. Saved…

Cecelia

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 17:08:45 +1200

Thanks Heather – I have the Happiness Hypothesis – will look up. I know I lack insight in these areas!

Cecelia

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 17:03:38 +1200

there are intelligent, thoughtful people in Destiny as well, but apparently that then leads to a pastor walking out and taking a third of his congregation with him.

Why would a thoughtful intelligent person fall for Tamaki's personality cult? He actually said he couldn't lower himself to a politician's level.…

Sacha

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:59:14 +1200

"how can a supposedly intelligent person such as yourself be a crazy pentecostal?"

Now I'm intrigued..

Sacha

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:58:45 +1200

Deciding that that sort of support is "too expensive" and then farming it out to private organisations seems to me to be a failure in moral leadership

Yet you can expect that to be official government policy after the election – unless enough people vote otherwise.

Heather Gaye

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:41:35 +1200

…oh, also, a lot has to be said for the politics of association. When all the people you hang out with believe the same things, those things really become self-evident. Modern Christian denominations can be especially bad in this regard, because they're explicitly warned to avoid “worldly influence” that might…

Heather Gaye

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:32:05 +1200

Why would a thoughtful intelligent person fall for Tamaki’s personality cult

...just for clarification it was the pastor that left that was the intelligent one, reacting against the bish's whole covenant debacle recently.

& speaking as someone who regularly got asked "how can a supposedly intelligent person such as yourself be…

3410

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:10:45 +1200

Destiny's actually claiming profits from its Community Max projects.
That's not normal, is it?

While the $850,000 his organisation received for its Community Max programmes was a lot of money, [the head of Destiny's social services, George Ngatai] said, all but about $10,000 went on wages, ACC and KiwiSaver payments for…

Cecelia

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:08:41 +1200

there are intelligent, thoughtful people in Destiny as well, but apparently that then leads to a pastor walking out and taking a third of his congregation with him.

Why would a thoughtful intelligent person fall for Tamaki's personality cult? He actually said he couldn't lower himself to a politician's level.…

Andre Alessi

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:08:23 +1200

Need to do some more reading. Interesting, but struggling to see how it fits.

I did wander a bit there, didn't I?

I was replying to the suggestion in your comment:
should we forgive people their indiscretions for some perception of a greater good?
that the "people" we were talking…

recordari

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 15:46:41 +1200

The doctrine of double effect

[Redacted].

Need to do some more reading. Interesting, but struggling to see how it fits.

Heather Gaye

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 14:44:06 +1200

Meet them, talk to them, walk in their shoes, and then decide whether or not you can pass judgement.

So where in that rosy little scenario, can I question their belief in a personal god without them getting biblical on me?

FWIW there’s very little space for a debate with…

Kumara Republic

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:42:11 +1200

I found Destiny's marches not just creepy, but downright threatening.

Georgina Beyer wasn't Godwinning when she likened the original march to a 'Nuremburg rally'. Not long after, the Destinymen mirror-flipped colours and resembled Klansmen minus the hoods.

Come to think of it, fundies are far scarier when they infiltrate mainstream…

andin

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:38:05 +1200

You making it sound so rational and cosy still! Maybe you are the only person on earth who can do that. The way you describe it, has never ever happened in my "experience".
And what Lucy said.

JoJo

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:36:54 +1200

so long as the usual standards of common courtesy and basic respect are maintained.

And therein lies the problem, Chris. Brian Tamaki does not abide by the usual standards of common courtesy and basic respect. His followers might (although the ones I've encountered at marches haven't). He seems to treat…

Andre Alessi

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:33:52 +1200

That being said, should we forgive people their indiscretions for some perception of a greater good?

I think the question here (which I honestly don't have a good answer for) is how much harm can you do in the course of doing good before the harm cancels out the good?…

Lucy Stewart

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:30:39 +1200

I don’t see anything wrong in discussing matters of personal belief even with people I strongly disagree with, so long as the usual standards of common courtesy and basic respect are maintained.

For myself, I find it very difficult to maintain basic respect and courtesy to someone who believes I…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:23:06 +1200

So where in that rosy little scenario, can I question their belief in a personal god without them getting biblical on me?

I'm not sure I understand the problem. I don't see anything wrong in discussing matters of personal belief even with people I strongly disagree with, so long as…

JoJo

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:18:55 +1200

I found Destiny's marches not just creepy, but downright threatening. We marched 'near' them (as opposed to against them, which we were advised not to do) – in our full rainbow glory, being as queer as queer can be. And none of us felt safe enough to walk home alone…

3410

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:10:32 +1200

Andrew Little, one year. He was perfectly civil

Phew! Lucky he didn't eat a kitten at the lectern, huh? :)

recordari

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:01:29 +1200

I wish he could have been supported better by government services so that he didn’t have to turn to a cult like Destiny to make this happen,

Perhaps this is the crux of it. When people turn to cults, gangs and slot machines to provide some form of hope for…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 12:38:11 +1200

Chris, if you had seen the way they inserted their bigotry forcefully into politics during that time – including their infamous blackshirted march – you would understand the cynicism.

Fair enough (edit to make it clear: I understand the cynicism better now, thanks). I remember reading about that march and…

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 12:32:40 +1200

Being able to state a clear position on humans rights and sexuality need not mean slagging off your hosts.

Quite. When I was involved in Young Nats policy conferences we invited quite a few speakers precisely because they'd have a *cough* not entirely friendly POV — including Andrew Little, one…

Andre Alessi

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 12:31:16 +1200

what I’m wondering is does destiny church do anything more or better than existing agencies?

and do they have best practices in place and accountability?

Speaking from personal experience: it’s because a church like Destiny is allowed authority over a person’s private life that no secular organisation would ever be…

Russell Brown

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 12:02:07 +1200

You can’t go to someone’s house and be all nice, and then walk outside the door and slag them off, Maori or not.

Being able to state a clear position on humans rights and sexuality need not mean slagging off your hosts.

Sacha

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:44:10 +1200

welfare privatisation

like Mission Australia

Kyle Matthews

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:40:11 +1200

Even if you were to accept the argument that it wasn’t the time or place at the actual conference (which I don’t), how would it not be the time and place in an interview after the event? We can expect a direct answer to a question such as (per your…

Craig Young

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:32:01 +1200

And yes folks, this is what the Welfare Working Group's ultimate objective, welfare privatisation, looks like. Not a pretty sight, is it?

Russell Brown

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:14:37 +1200

Chris, if you had seen the way they inserted their bigotry forcefully into politics during that time – including their infamous blackshirted march – you would understand the cynicism.

I was at the march, and wrote about it here. It was creepy.

One thing that I’ve always thought should have…

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:08:57 +1200

You're going to have to tease out that equivalence there, Sanctuary...

Sacha

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:07:42 +1200

In my opinion it is a very, very successful programme

Well that's OK then, as he's such an all-round 100% pure genius.

Sacha

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:06:09 +1200

By the sounds of this, they appear to have a problem with potential takatapui clients.

And do they harbour discriminatory attitudes about providing services to migrants, based on the attitudes Russell linked to?

Craig Young

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:03:07 +1200

Meanwhile, insofar as the Parents Inc story goes, this is what the PM stated in Parliament on June 6th, in response to a question from Social Development Minister Annette King:

Hon Annette King: What evidence and scientific advice did he seek before agreeing to allocate $2.4 million to Parents Inc.…

Craig Young

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:59:23 +1200

“Destiny Church cries "discrimination” New Zealand Herald: 09.06.2011: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10731094

By the sounds of this, they appear to have a problem with potential takatapui clients. Why were they funded in the first place, if this is the case? Have they discriminated against takatapui clients as recipients of government funds, which would…

Sacha

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:39:37 +1200

Destiny has emerged as I have been in China and the only information I have comes from what I have seen online. I will only say that writing them off as 'Density' is not helpful. Meet them, talk to them, walk in their shoes, and then decide whether or not…

Tom Semmens

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:12:22 +1200

Of course, Bishop Brian isn’t the only one to tell his new acolytes what to think. And one could argue that having a member of a creepy cult as the senior writer for the Wall Street Journal is way, way more scary than anything the brylcreemed Bishop can conjure.

recordari

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:04:03 +1200

If Tamaki does more than dogwhistle the party to vote for might this become an electioneering issue?
What do you mean by 'become'? I'd say 4 acting or potential MPs turning up to a religious congregation where money was being asked for and tithes being binded was already an electioneering…

Tim Michie

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 09:44:32 +1200

Is it just me or has Destiny increased it's televangelising spend this election year? I seem to be channel surfing across them more than I recall. If Tamaki does more than dogwhistle the party to vote for might this become an electioneering issue?.

andin

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 07:41:36 +1200

Meet them, talk to them, walk in their shoes, and then decide whether or not you can pass judgement.

So where in that rosy little scenario, can I question their belief in a personal god without them getting biblical on me?

Lucy Stewart

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 06:08:53 +1200

He is attributing a faith in God to Destiny whereas most commentators see it as a Brian Tamaki cult rather than a genuinely spiritual movement.

I always find it best to take people at their word about their faith and their beliefs. It's theirs, after all. I'm quite happy to…

Steve Parks

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 02:09:21 +1200

[Campbell] seemed incredulous that Tau, Shane and Hone wouldn’t join in with him.
It didn’t seem that way to me. I think, like a lot of people, he was just a little surprised at how much they were reluctant to overtly criticise Destiny Church, even after the event.
They all…

Steve Parks

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 01:48:03 +1200

My biggest disappointment was Shane “I’m a red-blooded male” Jones. When interviewed after the conference he said he was sure they would love any gay children they might just as much as their other children. Did I hear that right?
Yeah it was something like that. I was disappointed by…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 01:40:12 +1200

Watched that Campbell Live video and I have to say full credit to Metiria Turei, she was the only politician who held her line and stuck to her principles.

Now, for those trying to draw links between the Salvation Army and Destiny Church, can I just say, as a 6th…

andin

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 20:14:32 +1200

Cheers Andin, may I use that as my default disclaimer from now on?

How can I say no.

What I saw in the footage was people who perceive themselves as powerful interacting with other people who perceive themselves as powerful. Losing insight. Basking in the glow and then some rationalisation…

Cassandra

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 19:48:49 +1200

Well there was more I wanted to say but I approached the keyboard glass in hand and all was lost
Cheers Andin, may I use that as my default disclaimer from now on?
I too thought JC (JC, haha how apt) a bit over excited but whatever, don't give a…

recordari

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 19:18:03 +1200

JC did seem to be hectoring a little.

My first thought was 'that's uncharacteristic' but then I realised you weren't talking about Jesus.

Carry on.

Cecelia

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 19:17:36 +1200

but he seemed incredulous that Tau, Shane and Hone wouldn’t join in with him.
I was too! Tau doesn't seem to be very analytical but I thought the other two might flinch at Destiny beliefs/values. Shane Jones talked about Labour's hostility to God.He is attributing a faith in God to…

Tristan

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 19:01:11 +1200

I agree with Damian. JC did seem to be hectoring a little. The MP’s who attended didn’t cover themselves in glory much. They seemed to be trying their best to stay on side with destiny. Should have been upfront and Say I don’t agree with them on alot of things,…

andin

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 18:55:23 +1200

a weird echo-ey thing happening with the sound,
Yeah wasn't it cool, as if we could hear god... just fact-checking.
Excuse me for a second but there seems to be a weird synchronicity. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVi77uj0gM0&feature=related | You'll need lyrics for that. Just make it to the 3 min mark it won't kill…

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 18:55:19 +1200

You know, Damien, I damn hope that John Key would refuse to set foot in Auckland Cathedral if the Bishop was still preaching the blood libel against the Jews. Then again, he's probably be a spineless twat as per usual...

Damian Christie

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 18:31:27 +1200

I actually felt a bit uncomfortable with the whole Campbell treatment to be honest. I know he’s got it in for Destiny, and fair enough, nothing wrong with a bit of one-eyed journalism, but he seemed incredulous that Tau, Shane and Hone wouldn’t join in with him.

They all made…

Hinemoana Baker

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 18:21:29 +1200

All good! Get well soon!

B Jones

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 18:00:55 +1200

I watched both the Native Affairs footage and the Campbell Live – the latter had a weird echo-ey thing happening with the sound, so it was different.

nzlemming

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 17:53:32 +1200

Jeez, Russ, the RWC's coming up. If the camera guys have to be match fit, we can do no less. ;-)

Sue

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 17:51:05 +1200

what I'm wondering is does destiny church do anything more or better than existing agencies?

and do they have best practices in place and accountability?

Russell Brown

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 17:32:41 +1200

I’m grateful you’ve unpacked the Church’s beliefs a little more for us here, Russell. I’ve spent a lot of time in the last few days trying to explain the differences between a church and a cult, but now I’ll just point to your blog! Incidentally I think it was Shane…

Russell Brown

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 17:29:17 +1200

Small aside, but Tim Selwyn noted on Tumeke that this originally aired on Maori TV and Campbell didn’t credit it as he perhaps should have.

Crazy I know, who’d think it, but Tim Selwyn is wrong.

Maori TV was there, but the Campbell Live report was all shot by their…

Richard Aston

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 16:55:05 +1200

@ James you nailed the vulnerable patch very well. The Jehovah Witness's work the same patch as did the Hare Krishnas in the seventies – just depends what happens after you get back up from rock bottom

Hinemoana Baker

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 16:46:29 +1200

I was gutted to see them there, all of them. I was appalled that not one of them used even a few seconds of their allocated speaking time to challenge any of Destiny's (ie BT's) outlandish and extreme views. When you watch the footage you can see Hone H in…

Cecelia

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 16:23:42 +1200

The Campbell Live treatment of this issue was great: something important and stimulating after the endless Shrek tributes on One. My biggest disappointment was Shane "I'm a red-blooded male" Jones. When interviewed after the conference he said he was sure they would love any gay children they might just as…

poffa

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 16:03:07 +1200

Even if they make May Pole Dancing mandatory, I'd rather be supporting the party that holds these people accountable than those that pander to them.

Gareth Ward

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 15:50:25 +1200

Quite a few fundies have been rightly de-regged as charities – the Fists, the Sensibles, the Climate Science Coalition, you name it.

Greenpeace

TracyMac

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 15:22:47 +1200

Just to note as an addendum, I really don't want to turn this thread into one the rights and wrongs of the Salvation Army (their belated apologies and all – I'm afraid I wasn't in NZ in 2006 and missed the momentous occasion) – my point is really that Bish…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 15:18:17 +1200

Apparently they're already getting $860,000, thanks to Paula Bennett.

This could turn out to be Minister Bennett's Waterloo.

Christine Rankin, Bruce Pilbrow, Brian Tamaki, ... notice a pattern, much? And we thought fundy infiltration only happened in the States.

TracyMac

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 15:04:12 +1200

From the Salvos' website in Oz:

__We oppose vilification of, or discrimination against, anyone on the grounds of sexual orientation. No person is excluded from membership, fellowship or service in the Army solely on the basis of sexual disposition.

Homosexual practice however, is, in the light of Scripture, clearly unacceptable.…

Idiot Savant

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 14:19:39 +1200

Apparently they're already getting $860,000, thanks to Paula Bennett.

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 14:12:26 +1200

And, I guess, if the woman taken in adultery in John 8: 1-11 could get her shit together and sin no more, the Salvation Army deserve a fair shot at proving they can do the same.

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 14:00:59 +1200

I am not aware of any complaints from gay people who have felt discriminated, devalued or not accepted by the organisation while participating within SA programmes or activities.

I’ve asked a former SA member (and now out lesbian atheist) to respond to that herself, because it’s not my place to…

izogi

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 13:55:52 +1200

I was watching Campbell Live's excellent 20-minute feature on the New Zealand MPs who attended the Destiny Church conference at the weekend

Small aside, but Tim Selwyn noted on Tumeke that this originally aired on Maori TV and Campbell didn't credit it as he perhaps should have.

Craig Young

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 13:52:26 +1200

Thank you for this disturbing information about Destiny Church's Charities Commission approvals. I can promise you that Gaynz.Com will be on their case. And incidentally, given Pope Brian's crapulous remarks about takatapui and whakawahine in the past, it'll be a long cold night in hell before he gets any public…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 13:50:38 +1200

Also I notice some of their branches have been de registered by the Charities Commission , notably : Dunedin, Gisborne, Porirua and Kaitaia .

Quite a few fundies have been rightly de-regged as charities – the Fists, the Sensibles, the Climate Science Coalition, you name it.

James Butler

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 13:47:57 +1200

And yes, I know that Destiny has done a great job of helping people get up out of the gutter, making men fathers again.

I know they were a great help to my uncle when his on-again, off-again partner died, and he was left bringing up her kids and their…

Richard Aston

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 13:41:59 +1200

@ Idiot Savant
MSD (CYFS and FACS), Min Of Education ( private school funding) , Whanau Ora ( MSD)
Also I notice some of their branches have been de registered by the Charities Commission , notably : Dunedin, Gisborne, Porirua and Kaitaia .

Idiot Savant

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 13:14:33 +1200

I'd like to see journos ask about why the 'church' have had funding applications for their programmes turned down – those agencies must have reasons.

Give me an idea of who they've asked, and I can OIA it.

Kumara Republic

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 13:14:14 +1200

Bishop Brian is the Godfather (sic) of NZ's megachurch/McChurch industry, which is fundamentally the Nouveau Riche dogma with an altar, and has few if any of the saving graces of normal denominations like Anglicans & Presbyterians. Family Fist, For the Sake of Our Right to Hit, and Out of Focus on…

Russell Brown

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 13:13:08 +1200

So far behind the bloody scenes they exited the theatre and ended up in the middle of the parking lot. I’m sorry, but folks like Campbell Roberts neither deserve nor will receive any credit for their moral cowardice and silence when it really mattered.

See above. No one seems to…

Russell Brown

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 13:12:26 +1200

Perhaps they have. But it took until oh, 2006 or so for them to partially apologise for their behaviour in 1986.

Just so people don’t have to search down the page of the Rainbow Wellington newsletters, here’s the relevant part:

September 2010

We were recently asked about the current relationship…

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 13:05:12 +1200

. Read up on their discussion papers about homosexuality and the behind-the-scenes history of those Sallies who supported the HRA and all it stands for.

So far behind the bloody scenes they exited the theatre and ended up in the middle of the parking lot. I'm sorry, but folks like…

Raymond A Francis

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 13:01:01 +1200

It would seem to me that firstly the SA were divided on their postion in1986 , they have apologised for that and wish to build bridges
I am not sure just what else you want but I for one am happy to give to them as I have a gut…

Christopher Dempsey

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 12:53:18 +1200

You’re a little behind the times in your thoughts on the work the Sallies do, and perhaps a little stuck in the 80s too when talking about their public stand against the Homosexual Reform Act in 86. They’ve moved on – and so should you. Read up on their discussion…

Richard Aston

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 12:50:48 +1200

Destiny has helped people get out of the gutter, and men become fathers.
Yeah right – out of the gutter and into a "toxic ideological cult " to quote Morgan Godfery . I rather have the gutter.
Destiny Church members in some areas seem closely aligned with the [[http://www.ohf.org.nz/|Open Home…

Christopher Dempsey

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 12:46:20 +1200

I’d like to see journos ask about why the ‘church’ have had funding applications for their programmes turned down

On morning report Lewis maintained he hadn’t the faintest.

Put very simply public money comes from taxpayers. Public money is subject to the Human Rights Act in the sense public money…

giovanni tiso

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 12:39:00 +1200

He also said he wished that people got past certain perceptions of the church, so my guess is that, he knows full well. Apparently they've been turned down "hundreds of times".

Sacha

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 12:36:57 +1200

Lewis maintained he hadn't the faintest

yeah right

Lyndon Hood

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 12:19:17 +1200

I'd like to see journos ask about why the 'church' have had funding applications for their programmes turned down

On morning report Lewis maintained he hadn't the faintest.

Jo Malone

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 12:18:12 +1200

You're a little behind the times in your thoughts on the work the Sallies do, and perhaps a little stuck in the 80s too when talking about their public stand against the Homosexual Reform Act in 86. They've moved on – and so should you. Read up on their discussion…

Joshua Drummond

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 12:17:21 +1200

Thanks for this, Russell. There's a lot here that needed to be said – and, as far as I can tell, wasn't being said anywhere else.

Sacha

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 12:02:57 +1200

Destiny has helped people get out of the gutter, and men become fathers.

I'd like to see journos ask about why the 'church' have had funding applications for their programmes turned down – those agencies must have reasons.

And it's the bit that gets much less play than his tired…

Sacha

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 12:00:42 +1200

He describes Islam as “that devilish thing” and the construction of a Buddhist temple in Botany Downs as “opening a door from Hell”, and then goes on to link both with “immigrants … who won’t change their demon religions” and are “pouring in” to New Zealand as a result of…

Jeremy Andrew

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 11:49:59 +1200

The answer is "no, because that's Brash's turf, so those votes are already locked in for National/ACT"

Lucy Stewart

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 11:48:46 +1200

You’ll notice that an American preacher joins in. That’s “Bishop” Eddie Long, another huckster who has long been praised by Tamaki as his “spiritual father” and mentor.

Perhaps the most useful perspective I have ever had on Tamaki was provided by the lecturer of a class I took on mythology,…

TracyMac

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 11:47:44 +1200

Destiny has helped people get out of the gutter, and men become fathers. Yeah, in exactly the same way the Salvation Army guilts money out of people to help those they only deem worthy of helping, which, if you did not know, does not include queers. Nor do they refrain…

andin

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 11:46:59 +1200

and, if their faces were any signal to their feelings, got hauled in quite some way past their comfort zones.

Yep, Tho' I want to know if Tau saw god, or is he just uncomfortable with being touched by other men? (in a purely non sexual way of course)

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 11:43:29 +1200

The MPs all agreed it was a matter of electoral reality – there are 10,000 votes for the having in the Destiny Church membership.

OK, I guess this is a quasi-Godwin question to ask but I'm perfectly serious. If barking moonbat Kyle Chapman has ten thousand racist douche canoes at…

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 11:20:58 +1200

"Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners."

1 Corinthians 15:33 (King James Version)

That is all.

Gareth Ward

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 11:19:09 +1200

"I don't believe a Maori could have written that"
Ummm, huh?

Public Address

Wed, 08 Jun 2011 11:04:22 +1200

Discussion from blog post.