He was telling them he hates this place.

Perhaps you should consult the newspapers rather than your own prejudices then

Ah yes my "prejudices", which you must know all about.

Yes it was back in the heady days of Feb 2006 when this period of ecumenical cooperation reached that particular zenith within a couple of weeks of each…

The NZ Muslim Council publicly pitched in behind the Catholics over the 'Bloody Mary' episode of South Park.

And while I'm a little diffident about praising people for holding protest marches rather than rioting and issuing death threats (on the Chris Rock principle that you don't praise people for just…

I'm never going to agree with Nandor on everything, but I respect him as someone who's prepared to think, rather than simply react.

I feel much the same. He also appears to have a genuine respect for others which I admire too.

Thanks for the link.

I didn't get to hear Nandor's speech but have just seen some of it on the NZ Herald site; classy. Parliament is much poorer for his departure.

It's available in full on the home page here:

http://www.greens.org.nz/home.shtml

I'm never going to agree with Nandor on everything, but I respect him…

Lyndsay Freer HMM.

So she stood in fellowship with her muslim brothers and sisters over the danish cartoons.

Hope she's not expecting the favour to be returned.

Perhaps you should consult the newspapers rather than your own prejudices then.

The NZ Muslim Council publicly pitched in behind the Catholics over…

So she stood in fellowship with her muslim brothers and sisters over the danish cartoons.
Hope she's not expecting the favour to be returned.

Does the crimes act have a section allowing for the assaults that technically take place often in contact sports? Running at someone and tackling them to the ground is an assault, right?

Pretty much.

20 General rule as to justifications

(1) All rules and principles of the common law which…

no such provision exists to excuse the assault of anyone else

Well – there's also passengers on aircraft and on ships (whose pilots and masters are entitled to use reasonable force to maintain discipline).

And everyone in the country (because police officers are entitled to use reasonable force to effect…

Just listened to Nandor. All teary eyed now.Gave the press gallery a good bollocking, Jah Ras Tafari!

A very good speech, and it spoke some uncomfortable truths to a lot of people. he also said some stuff you wouldn't expect to hear from a dreadlocked rasta anarchist...

And everyone in the country (because police officers are entitled to use reasonable force to effect an arrest).

Which in Tauranga apparently extends to torture.

I am ashamed. And angry. And wondering what the police are going to do to prevent anything like this from happening ever again.

I don't care if you haven't got a decent reply just don't ever represent my opinion in such a dishonest way. Be the person of integrity you so obviously want to be.

Craig that's just poor, don't try and put word in my mouth.

Jeremy, this is still in effect.

Craig that's just poor, don't try and put word in my mouth.

Yes, not least because she gives lie to the impression conveyed by certain other people who purport to represent Christians that being a believer means being stranded from the rest of the culture.

Thanks for slipping purport in there, Russell. It's not bitchy nitpicking to point out that Papal infalibility…

Lyndsay Freer is definately a good spokesperson for the church.

Yes, not least because she gives lie to the impression conveyed by certain other people who purport to represent Christians that being a believer means being stranded from the rest of the culture.

Also, as a couple of people said…

Every Kiwi should be entitled to a bach on the coast

See there you guys go again, you have to be so careful with your wording ... everone south of Timaru is going to go "a what?" or maybe "what about us?" – but then if you say "bach or…

This is incorrect; it has always been illegal to smack your child.

Section 59 of the Crimes Act meant that when a paediatrician notified the police about an assault and if this resulted in a charge being laid and a case going to court, the defendant could successfully argue "reasonable…

- Every Kiwi should be entitled to a bach on the coast

Excellent! Make mine J. S. Sunset, sand, claret and "The Well Tempered Clavier" – what more could I ask for (well, lots, actually)?

Sorry, someone had to make that pun. Just doing an onerous duty.

Maybe we should try and swamp the system with meaningless referenda. Can you have a multishot petition:

Nope – it has to ask only one question (though how the 1999 crime one got through I'll never know).

Swamping th system would be difficult, given the threshold is so high (something…

You want non-binding referendums on actual legislation?

Actually, with proper questions and some decent checks and balances, I'd want them to be binding – basically used as an alternative mchanism to pass laws. But that would require that they be treated with some maturity, rather than just a venue for…

intractable drunks, the mentally ill, the mentally handicapped

Meh, let's just give everyone "three free smacks a year", to be dished out as they see fit to anyone annoying them or in need of discipline for any reason. They could perhaps be accumulated to a maximum of nine smacks.

I…

A smack, even as part of good parental correction, is now a crime. And it was not before.

This is incorrect; it has always been illegal to smack your child.

Section 59 of the Crimes Act meant that when a paediatrician notified the police about an assault and if this…

Well if that was a condition of voting we may as well not have elections....

Well, a referendum and voting for a representative for the next 3 years are completely different things.

You want non-binding referendums on actual legislation?

I think if you have referendum, they should be binding. Exactly…

- Every Kiwi should be entitled to a bach on the coast

Every kiwi should have an awesome view of the coast from said bach, uninterrupted by monstrous eyesores, of the sort owned by John Key.

Travel to said bach should be on smooth, wide highways, unencumbered by traffic or…

– Taxation should be completely abolished for hard-working Kiwis

– Pensions should be increased to 150% of average wages

– Every Kiwi family should be entitled to a 4 bedroom house on a…

Doesn't that just boil down to "Should something good be illegal?"

Don't ask Jim Anderton. ;-)

It's sort like "have you stopped beating your wife?" in that it requires you do agree with the questioner's world view in order to make sense of the question

Well said. Hadn't quite thought…

While its clearer than most, I'd still prefer an actual bill. it's not that hard, and the Office of the Clerk should be there to help.

You want non-binding referendums on actual legislation?

The commencing of the 99-MP petition should have resulted in the drafting of a bill to reduce…

So, who's up for repealing the Citizen Initiated Referenda Act

Not me; as ineffective as they may be, they're one of the few tools easily accessible to the general citizenry I'm only sorry they've been largely captured by wingnuts.

Bit of a non-sequitur but maybe, if it's not too middle-class,…

So, who's up for repealing the Citizen Initiated Referenda Act

Me. Tools of dictators (and other would be controllers) to give a veneer of credibility to otherwise outrageous positions. They have no place in a democracy.

Now, where do I sign?

"Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?"

Doesn't that just boil down to "Should something good be illegal?"

If the petition says "John Key is a Knob and should have to wear a T-Shirt everyday that says 'I Am A Knob'"…

It's sort like "have you stopped beating your wife?" in that it requires you do agree with the questioner's world view in order to…

Exactly. The 99 MPs ballot would be a good example?

While its clearer than most, I'd still prefer an actual bill. it's not that hard, and the Office of the Clerk should be there to help.

No "mom and apple pie".

Really?

I'd have thought "do you hate politicians" was…

You shouldn't walk into the polling booth (or... postal ballot whatever) and think "umm. What the hell does that mean in reality?"

Well if that was a condition of voting we may as well not have elections....

keep it the same, change it to X.

Exactly. The 99 MPs ballot would be a good example?

No "mom and apple pie".

No ability to interpret a vote for change as something already satisfied by existing law (as could happen with this referendum).

No potential for internal inconsistency in…

Actually, from a certain POV (and a conservative one, I would argue) laws that are unenforced (or not applied to all without bias, fear or favour) or unenforceable are truly destructive of civil society — of which general respect for the rule of law is an integral part.

I'm in…

Proposed CIR questions do go through a proper process.

I mean something like what I/S said. If it were to have actual powers of bringing in some laws, then it would need to be written in legal terms. "That Section 59 of the Crimes Act etc be repealed." Yay or…

preview, always preview

Russell Pound and the panel discuss how the Broadcasting

are they taking the piss? tv adds weight but I think you look ok
[[http://tvnz.co.nz/Media7PodcastMP4|media 7 podcast]

That would be to assume I regarded the removal of the Section 59 defence as "poor legislation".

No it doesn't, given the removal of the defence is only part of the legislation, and the removal of the defence is not even the purpose of the legislation, it is its effect…

Is this correct? Do we think that CIR are bad? Should the public be allowed a voice on issues outside of the election process? I for one, would be quite…

As devilish satire of the media discourse, it sure ain't Jonathan Swift.

No having seen it, I'll comment on the concept anyway in relation to the discussion of the other television journalists, wossname and his mini-me: I was wondering if postmodernism has vanished up its own fundament, or perhaps reached…

if proponents of the right to thump kids are allowed stupid and emotive names for legislation, so am I.

Given the "anti-smacking bill" was Sue Bradford's name for the legislation, I think you may owe her an apology.

If it's actually a referendum then it should have legal powers, and the question should go through a proper process (like select committee, clerks etc) so that it actually makes sense if we vote it in.

Proposed CIR questions do go through a proper process.

When someone makes a proposal…

you`re not in such a hurry to attack the poor legislation that led to

What poor legislation?

I think the main motivation for sooner rather than later is that, much like homosexual law reform (which was reported as having only 50-odd percent approval when passed, and moved to well over…

Ok, I'm going to stop now.

That would be the private member's bill from a Green MP for which both major parties, and , indeed, most of Parliament, voted. You'd think a political reporter might know that.

Why lets the facts get in the way of the chosen narrative. Once the debate is framed in a…

So, who's up for repealing the Citizen Initiated Referenda Act

Nope – I'd rather fix it. First step: make the question on an actual piece of legislation (which must comply with Standing Orders for form and content, and comply with the BORA), rather than a vague, leading motherhood statement. And…

We have countless laws out there which are not enforced on a daily basis, because most of the time it would damage the integrity of the our civil society.

Actually, from a certain POV (and a conservative one, I would argue) laws that are unenforced (or not applied to all…

Is it just me or do I detect a certain partisaness when I hear Scott Campbell and Duncan Garner reporting on Parliament?

It often seems to me that Scott Campbell wants to be Duncan Garner.

When he grows up, perhaps.

...pehaps its a little unkind, but the phrases "shrunken Duncan"…

.. and although you like to attack poor referendum questions, you`re not in such a hurry to attack the poor legislation that led to these questions?

That would be to assume I regarded the removal of the Section 59 defence as "poor legislation".

... perpetuates the wingnut view that we're all going to jail for clipping our offspring round the ear.

Speaking of which, when is Jimmy Mason facing his child assault charges in Christchurch? I was looking forward to that case.

I'm assuming there has been some moderation here, as I can't seem to find the original irrelevant comment about someone's breasts? Good job that moderator!

Actually, that was me in the original post, referring to Lisa Lewis's breasts, them being the point of Alt TV's Naked Newsflash.

What annoys me is that people seem to have forgotten that National voted for the law change. Yet they will now be able to surf the wave of outrage against it? ARGH!

Absolutely they're riding a wave of public ignorance on this, egged on by ignorant fuckwits in the media…

We have countless laws out there which are not enforced on a daily basis, because most of the time it would damage the integrity of the our civil society.

And indeed, this particular law specifically provided against the pursuit of inconsequential matters.

It may not be exactly how I'd have worded it, but the wording is far short of the confusing law and order referendum. At present "a smack as part of good parental correction" is a criminal offence.

Now you see Graeme, this is where some people struggle with lawyers... while…

The Law says you need 350,000 signatures on a CIR petition. If the petition says "John Key is a Knob and should have to wear a T-Shirt everyday that says 'I Am A Knob'" and they can get 350,000 signatures ....

Nevermind that Key would just wear the T-shirt under…

Thanks for the plug for Drinking Liberally Russell :-)

On the issue of the timing of the referendum Labour is on a hiding (boom boom)…

It's neither. Its one person exercising her democratic right backed up by many others.And apparently you don't like that kind of exercise of democratic rights because your view of democracy appears to be based on the subject matter – and that's a pretty warped view to have IMNSHO.

Warped? Please.…

to be perfectly frank, her overstuffed, sore-looking augmented breasts aren't even very attractive.

Why are they sore? From her $2000-a-night 'other job' , or is Oliver being a Very Naughty Boy in the Green Room?

You're on fire this morning.

Maybe, but 7.43am is waaay too early to be posting Madonna clips.…

It often seems to me that Scott Campbell wants to be Duncan Garner.

When he grows up, perhaps.

I've been out of the country for 6 years, but I'm totally surprised that that's long enough for Duncan to grow up...

... or perhaps your talking about Campbell?

It's neither. Its one person exercising her democratic right backed up by many others.And apparently you don't like that kind of exercise of democratic rights because your view of democracy appears to be based on the subject matter – and that's a pretty warped view to have IMNSHO.

Personally I…

The referendum is not a vote on the law passed by Parliament removing the Section 59 defence for striking a child.
It is, in fact, another work of weasel words apparently aimed more at sentiment than a useful conclusion.

It's neither. Its one person exercising her democratic right backed up…

IMNSHO opinion, Garner and Co. are so obsessed with trying to trip politicians up, chasing the next 'gone by lunchtime' sin-sational soundbite, they're just not doing the hard yards.

Yeah, I agree. I think they get a couple of wins, get a taste for it and keep going back for…

Is it your television? Or is it any TV you see him on?
Cos that could be a problem.

'Tis my television. With other people's I just grump and mumble.

You're on fire this morning.

Why thank you sir, I think. :) But, really, it would be nice if Garner's 'tude had a little more substance behind it. Sorry if this upsets Jeremy Eade, but I think both National and Labour have both been on the receiving end of utterly…

(It's not illegal to throw things at the television is it? Yet?)

Is it your television? Or is it any TV you see him on?

Cos that could be a problem.

No, when it comes to utter fatuity Garner is an equal-opportunity fuckwit. He can take anything and turn it into a witless gotcha! that falls flatter than a bad trannie's falsies.

You're on fire this morning.

The subject of referendums was discussed at length yesterday but it was interesting to hear this morning that after the 1999 ref. Parliament decided that in future refs should be postal and not part of a Parliamentary Ballot.

This was supported by National at the time.

I had no idea…

So amid all the talk of wasted money, might I ask that the likes of Larry Baldock stop wasting everyone's time and money with bullshit referendum questions?

So, who's up for repealing the Citizen Initiated Referenda Act — and then Parliament stops wasting everyone's time with outrageous bullshit like the…

Is it just me or do I detect a certain partisaness when I hear Scott Campbell and Duncan Garner reporting on Parliament?

It often seems to me that Scott Campbell wants to be Duncan Garner.

When he grows up, perhaps.

I disagree. It may not be exactly how I'd have worded it, but the wording is far short of the confusing law and order referendum.

I'll grant you that — the 1999 referendum question was so so meaningless I decided the only rational response to it was to spoil my…

The referendum is not a vote on the law passed by Parliament removing the Section 59 defence for striking a child.

It is, in fact, another work of weasel words apparently aimed more at sentiment than a useful conclusion.

I disagree. It may not be exactly how I'd have worded…