The whole story is told by Glenn Greenwald at Salon

it's worth going across to the Malkin link on Glenn's post and reading the frigging comments, along the lines of:

That there is no evidence of WMDs is evidence they were moved...that guy in the NY Sun said so

These…

You might call being attacked by Japan "self interest", but I don't think that really captures it fairly

There is a little more to it than that Weston. James raised Nanking before...I suspect it was self interest that allowed the US to suppress footage of this horrific incident to ensure…

You might call being attacked by Japan "self interest"

weeeell... i kind of took self-defence to also mean self-interest.

If somebody owns a gun, they feel safer.
But if everybody has a gun, then overall we are less safe.

You're sort of describing whats known as the fallacy of composition and the problem of game theory known as the prisoner's dilemma.

One way of describing this is to say…

When it comes to owning a gun for protection, it's a bit like utilitarianism.
If somebody owns a gun, they feel safer.
But if everybody has a gun, then overall we are less safe.
So everybody acting in their own self-interest does not make us all better off.

Even though…

What does offend people is the idea, touted over and over again that "we saved your butts".

i could not agree more. what has been pointed out to you a number of times james is that the usa did not enter the war to "save the world". it entered…

Tell me Simon, do you lock the door at night and make sure your windows are closed? If so you are obviously living in fear!! I don't know what Bali is like, but if you lived in NZ, Auckland especially, you would be mad if you didn't lock your…

They've got a gun so I'll get me a gun. Now he's got a bigger gun that's easier to use, so I'll get me one too. Oh and another one for the missus just in case. And then as…

So everybody acting in their own self-interest does not make us all better off.

There is no doubt at all that there is a real deterrent value…

Ikea about freedom

Always with the Swedes!

As Conrad "Fingers" Black called them "Those smug socialists"

They were keen to remain neutral, even as traditional allies of theirs like Britain were attacked.

I would also disagree about Torch being an important battle.

That…

I lived here on NOLA, which has quite a bit of crime, without a gun quite happily for years. I…

there's 300 million -odd people in america, it's pretty hard to make gross generalisations about all of them

I agree entirely and I didn't think that I did. There's a segment of the blogosphere that does act exactly as Che says and that's whats the whole thread is about.

what's all this stuff about world war 2?

apparently all criticism of america is to be stopped immediately, because they "saved the world" in dubya, dubya two.

we've been pointing out that this was not the case.

but merc just godwined the thread with a three year old story about…

what's all this stuff about world war 2?

i would also…

but, have walked away for awhile, and... i'm still pissed off at that wishart statement.

the point of the name "ismail" is that this guy probably identifies with ishmael, the son disowned by abraham.

he's probably doing what most isolated kids do…

__Pastor Fred, a/k/a/ Fred Waldron Phelps Sr., who refers to himself and his grown children as “the most hated family in America,” claims he and his Topeka, Kansas-based Westboro Baptist ‘church’ –which is made up almost entirely of…

Yes, but I bet NBC News's ratings, website hits and trackbacks, Google ranking, Nexis-Lexis hits etc. all went through the roof... and that's all that really…

cheong was a seriously screwed up kid, not a muslim terrorist.

have trouble sleeping at night ian? that's because you are a fraud and a liar.

where i don't have to worry about other people with concealed handguns

Yeah – New Zealand's gun control laws seem like a good idea to me. That said, our police force seems to have had its share of problems recently, and that concerns me.

Traditionally the Democrats have…

What is wrong with him?

subsequent to the publication of Freakonomics another researcher found an error in Levitt's code. Levitt corrected the error and his data still seemed to show the 'abortion effect'; however, people who know much more about econometrics than me (such as the blogger Daniel Davies over at Crooked Timber) claim…

and no, I don't think people thought italians were quite the loleasybeats they later became stereotyped as (although this probably was the campaign that started…

er ... so why aren't they up in arms about what Bush and his minions (or is that visa versa) are doing (have done) to their prescious Constitution.

That is something you would have to ask them. If I had to guess, I'd say the modern Republican movement is a…

yep, we can kill, bomb, invade who we like because Hollywood has given us a version of the past that gives us that license.

...because military representatives vet the scripts, ie If you don't make sure that the US armed forces look like the heeeroes of the piece, you don't…

I don't think anyone is proposing that we adopt US gun laws.

oh totally.

after reading James Bremner's posts (and seeing that top gear episode!), it makes me wonder if there'd be much less gun ownership if there was less inequality and fear in the southern states. i must admit,…

but nth africa was a clincher. access to russia thru the caucasus would certainly have made for a different war.

yep, we can kill, bomb, invade who we like because Hollywood has given us a version of the past that gives us that license.

indeed. the usa likes to forget that three great battles won ww2.

stalingrad
the battle of britain
midway

they only fought in one of these. making…

The US federal system was established on the premise that governmental power needs to be checked.

er ... so why aren't they up in arms about what Bush and his minions (or is that visa versa) are doing (have done) to their prescious Constitution.

[[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rachel-haimowitz/move-along-lady-liberty_b_45945.html|Move Along, Lady Liberty, This Doesn't…

the 'sub' bit comes from a time when most machine guns were much larger, not meant to be very portable things; the ones we commonly hear of today like uzis, ingrams, MP5s etc were much smaller than the norm then. it doesn't refer to…

Erm, what does the "Sub" bit of submachine gun mean?

Complete guess that it denotes a handheld weapon, rather than a big mounted version.

As someone pointed out earlier, the right to bear arms is contained in the Second Amendment to the US Constitution

That is the crux of it, isn't it? Their political system gives so much power to the preznit that they felt that they had to have firearms just in case.

the discerning protector of the free world against invasion from wetbacks uses a heckler&koch

Somewhere earlier on this thread is a link to another chinese student with a gun collection, in Virginia. On his blog is a picture of the cutest Heckler & Koch machine gun, which is probably responsible for…

this almost brought tears to my eyes.

That's bad, alright. I wonder how many red blooded guys have done the same sort of posing and now should be feeling a little queasy?

Erm, what does the "Sub" bit of submachine gun mean?

those moronic middle americans can keep their stupid gun laws.

I don't think anyone is proposing that we adopt US gun laws. The question is whether New Zealanders should give opinions on what gun laws should prevail in the US.

As someone pointed out earlier, the right to bear arms…

if you really wanna see the pictures Cho Seung-Hui took of himself and sent to NBC

jesus... this almost brought tears to my eyes.

that probably explains why uzis are more easily available there than here.

pah! uzi-schmoozi.

the discerning protector of the free world against invasion from wetbacks uses a heckler&koch.

Want to feel really smug and superior? Read some of the American respondents to the Heraldss gun control editorial.

i don't know who said it, but people do tend to get the governments they deserve (probably a bit of a harsh comment for your average sudanese, iraqi or rwandan, i…

with errm, illegal Mexican immigration for instance.

Hmm... that probably explains why uzis are more easily available there than here.

But let's talk pukekoes

There were 6 godwits (I think) on that thin strip of coastline near the Onewa Rd / Motorway Interchange (Auckland) that could've been shot. Woulda saved the taxpayers a fortune when they put thru the new bus/motor way.

Not that I think they should__ have been…

they don't go 'bang' they don't seem to attract the same restrictions as bangy things.

the correspondent's unassailable logic was that the amount of time required to reload a crossbow would allow for a good old fashioned regrouping of the targets, concerted rush & subsequent lynching of the crossbowman.

I doubt…

Only for sport.

But let's talk pukekoes.

only when they're on horses, which after all is not very natural for kiwis.

But shit, a crossbow? Wahoo!

dude... just yell 'banzai' and charge the bastard with an machete.

according to nick (US) we're all living under japanese occupation anyhow. might as well start playing up to stereotypes.

Stephen
I once thought I might like to live in New Zealand however, after reading some of the narrow minded, immature, and downright hateful messages regarding the University shootings, I…

The more killings there, the better the gun biz gets:

__But many people say the incident may also lead to greater gun sales. Leane Anderson, a firearms instructor and gun shop owner, said purchases had…

...crossbows.

Sounds cool to me. Maybe as a bonus, they could include throwing knives. That'd be great.

I have been plagued recently by rabbits & pig. Buying…

shoot it in the style of Pinter's Handmaid's Tale i reckon

So... armed aborting single mothers.

Be kinda tricky to sell that solution politically.

but someone call tarantino NOW.

we have a hook for his next film.

Be kinda tricky to sell that solution politically.

Then the great American crime plunge of the Clinton years happened.

Freakonomics theorises that the legalisation of abortion in the 1970s lead to the drop in crime in the 1990s.

Abortion meant that fewer children were being born to solo mothers, raised on low incomes, which is somewhat of an…

cue: sanctimony.

Yeah. I don't want to pretend that I'm any sort of saint in this respect, because I'm not, but I think your policy is a good one.

I used to joke that Tool wasn't so much a form of artistic expression as it was a cry for help.…

before they go postal.

And that reminds me, Peter Jackson is a disaffected ex employee of the Evening POST. True?

...And another case from 1995. Pre-terrorists, pre-Columbine even.

Given…

i see Garth Vader is leaving town

we should have a whip-around.

might be able to get enough for a tank of gas and hurry him on his way.

no... wait... the fcker isn't coming to wellington is he?

for all concerned, that would indeed be safest place for him to stay.

i expect it's a forerunner to the 'i'm retiring' announcement, preempting the 'i've been chopped' announcement.

awful in another way...

i see Garth Vader is leaving town. seems Auckland is nolonger what is was since they stopped 6 o'clock closing and he's off to somewhere the buffalo still play.

That column is hilarious. He really dos live inside his head.

our collective response is to keep as far away from the socially radioactive as we can

cue: sanctimony.

i've always been convinced we need more freaks and loners about the place.

i see Garth Vader is leaving town. seems Auckland is nolonger what is was since they stopped 6 o'clock closing and he's off to somewhere the buffalo still play.

I'm not…

Who interestingly also has one of the largest private collection of firearms in New Zealand.

And is also fascinated with old warplanes.

He'd look much better hunched over a WWI biplane, machine gun firing red hot, goggles and scarf, strafing suits on Lambton Quay, than wandering around Victoria University with…

Here's another couple of links to try:
assaults
murder
Murder with guns

Based on governmental stats rather than a telephone survey.

Victimization can mean a lot of things from a slap outside the pub to a gun in ones face with menace. And I wonder how many of the…

Up until 1993, the US had world-leading rates of gun ownership and violent crime victimisation. Then the great American crime plunge of the Clinton years happened.

Gun ownership rates didn't change (indeed, more controls were imposed) but overall…

There are certainly differing studies on the effects of gun control in Oz.

Stephen, "trial areas are doomed because..." – you need to *try* it before making that kind of…

I fail to see how being armed protects me as I'm walking down the street, minding my own business, and someone…

John Lott, your second source, is simply not credible in the gun debate.

see:
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/lott/more_guns_less_crime/
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/lott/cherrypicking/
http://timlambert.org/category/lott/
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/lott/misc/
http://timlambert.org/category/lott/cherry-picking/
http://timlambert.org/category/lott/more_guns_less_crime/

And most of the other stuff on Lambert's website under Lott.

If anyone's interested, Tim Lambert has a whole heap of good stuff on his website countering the more…

You wrote about gun control that "Places where it has been tried it has worked. "

That is a myth, not an accurate statement.

The assault weapon ban tried here had no impact, which was why it was allowed to expire with barely a whisper from anyone.

Gun control…

I really don't know how anyone can be confident stricter firearm control wouldn't work in the US. It hasn't been tried.

Places where it has been tried it has worked. They could even do it in a few trial states to see the effect. All the arguments in the world…

Places where it has been tried it has worked. They could even do it in a few trial states to see the effect. All the arguments in the world…

Hindsight is invariably perfect, but again I've got to wonder whether shovelling the shy, lonely and depressed into compulsory counselling on the precautionary principle is much of an improvement.

Well, yes. There was a spate of it after Columbine, with kids who were dark or different suddenly regarded as potential…

Hum... I don't know if you're going to much like my PA Radio piece this week. Hindsight is invariably perfect, but again I've got to wonder whether shovelling the shy, lonely and depressed into compulsory counselling on the precautionary principle is…

Wonderfully microcephalic reasoning that.

killer writes violent plays

Cough... who's up for broaching the subject with Peter Jackson?

Who interestingly also has one of the largest private collection of firearms in New Zealand.

Would you break into someone's house if you thought they may well be armed? Probably not.

But if you did, the first thing you'd do is kill the occupants before they could get to their guns. I'd be interested to see how many home invasions result in deaths over there…

What strikes me about these sorts of events is how strongly some men hold grudges and the determination to make as many people pay as possible. Women just don't do it.

i would suggest you've never worked in an office.

These things look at lot clearer with hindsight.

i just thought it was great to hear that it was a crazed loner who did the shooting.

makes me rather sanctimonious about my policy of always taking time to talk to loners, engaging them in conversation with a 'real person', you…

killer writes violent plays

Cough... who's up for broaching the subject with Peter Jackson?

killer writes violent plays.

someone better check tarantino's place for a gun collection, right now.

Yes. These things look at lot clearer with hindsight.

someone better check tarantino's place for a gun collection, right now.

i heard somewhere (or maybe it was a german doco? i forget) that a lot of crims use ex-police weapons, which were sold by the police,…

Bushco has spent billions trying to "protect Americans from terrorist attack on American soil", and yet the simple truth is that if Al Quaeda really wanted to they could just send out a dozen martyrs armed with legally purchased and constitutionally protected weapons to inflict a dozen VT's.

Alternatively, they…

Bushco has spent billions trying to "protect Americans from terrorist attack on American soil", and yet the simple truth is that if Al Quaeda really wanted to they could just send out a dozen martyrs armed with legally purchased and constitutionally protected weapons to inflict a dozen…

But hey, if your VCR is that important to you that you'll trade someone stealing your stuff for thousands of firearms homicides a year, I guess you've moved to the right country.

Heh.

Cop: We'll let you know if we find anything.
Me: Thanks. Do you ever find anything?
Cop: No.

This suggests to me that burglary is not an uncommon crime in the US. And the guns…

Even before I bought a gun, the fact that others did have guns in their houses substantially reduced the risk of someone breaking into my house. That is good.

Not so good is the number of people who die in the US because some hopped-up-on-scray-TV-news homeowner blows his wife or…

When I first arrived…

Yes, I saw the…

OK, so apparently there are 30,000 deaths as the result of guns in the United States every year.

20,000 of those are suicides, although clearly it's reasonable to argue that the availability of a quick pull of the trigger to end's one's woes certainly removes that moment of reflection that…

Can anybody get any details on the 164 gun deaths that must have occured in the US since the V tech massacre?

Chances are they – unlike the stupid example of Aramoana (where more widespread firearms possession might have saved a lot of lives; the unarmed cop who was shot…

That works out at 82 per day.

Can anybody get any details on the 164 gun deaths that must have occured in the US since the V tech massacre?

It's exactly the same as lamenting…

If you don't agree with that, I'll pop a cap up yo ass.

I would discount Beslan as a terrorist attack in a country with weak law enforcement. The only other cases I can think of outside the US are Dunblane (over in three minutes) and Erfurt…

Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Just to pick up on what someone else said about…

This would have been preventable with much lower loss of life if the university admins hadn't voted down a rule change to allow students with licenses to carry concealed handguns on campus.

As it was, they deliberately disarmed their students, setting them up for this…

The reason they have gun free zones around schools is not to stop massacres but to stop eveyday shootings, which, in the United States, kill a lot more people.

I've just started reading one of the Kiwiblog comment treads on the shooting.

Here's tim barclay

The shooter is a socialist going on about rich kids. This is not the first time that despicable philosophy has been acted out at the barrel of a gun.

[still lost for words,…

But worldwide, there has not been a single school shooting prevent by police or law enforcement.

– Most have ended in suicide
– Beslan was stopped by the military, after a sustained gunfight
– Peal Mississippi…

I have done something entirely good for the last two days...

I have not turned on a televison.

i gave up tv entirely six months ago.

best decision i've ever made. people look at me like i'm crazy when i tell them that.

damn junkies...

__Every tragedy now seems accompanied by an outpouring of grief and solidarity on the Internet — a torrent of news, rumor, photos, cellphone videos and instant opinion. So was the case Monday, as the death toll climbed…

Elsewhere on the internets, some news organisations got the wrong armed-to-the-teeth Asian guy, [link]

Thanks for the link RB, quite a fascinating blog that Wrong Asian Guy keeps actually. I PREDICT he will actually become a guest contributor on Fox News. They'll get him on The O'reilly Factor, have a…

I have not turned on a televison.

I have missed what can only be called pornography if its anything like previous tragedys.

Just as a thought experiment, does anything this this would have received the same level of media attention if (say) Cho Seung-Hui had been a totally screwed up engineering student who'd killed thirty four people by planting a fire bomb in a residential hall? And if not, why not?

Because…

That was a rollicking good Top Gear wasn't it ... I think of the show in a slightly different light now. Though clearly what sounded like…

Just as a thought experiment, does anything this this would have received the same level of media attention if (say) Cho Seung-Hui had been a totally screwed up engineering student who'd killed thirty four people by planting a fire bomb in a residential hall? And if not, why not?

Probably…

I suspect Canada resembles New Zealand and that most of the…

The real problem is the constitution and the culture.

More the latter, less the former. One of the points of the inexplicably-despised-by-gun-nuts Bowling for Columbine was that US firearms ownership isn't that much higher than Canada – but argued that there is a culture of racism, fear, and violence in…

Top Gear s09e03

is that the one where they paint the slogans on their cars? It gets very frightening very quickly.

All on YouTube, naturally:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V-2BKwPdK4

I think rodgerd was saying that these rare events are not really where the problem of gun violence lies in the US and even with effective gun control that's not going to stop the most determined people causing events like this.

We're always going to have crazy people in our…

One of these days it's going to be an expat New Zealander going gun-crazy over there. And all our movies and music and mountain-climbing and even Kevin Roberts would not make Aotearoa so famous. Kiwi travellers in the…

s09e03

bittorrent search ready. nice.

I dunno. Remember that after Steve Irwin died, people in QLD were hacking up stingrays in revenge.

myth, apparently. can't find the source now, but I recall reading that – after Irwin's death – a few dead stingrays were found in Queensland with their barbs removed. Apparently this is pretty…

any pogroms against the Koreans would be directly caused by sensationalist reporting.

I dunno. Remember that after Steve Irwin died, people in QLD were hacking up stingrays in revenge. There are some really, really stupid, tribal-minded people out there.

Sorry, it was Mark E who spotted that.

This may have been posted already, but Salon reports that [[http://salon.com/news/feature/2007/04/17/koreans_fleeing/|Korean students are now…

one form of ID

I think I might have this detail wrong. Two forms of ID. And a cheque book (which apparently counts as a third there).

I think rodgerd was saying that these rare events are not really where the problem of gun violence lies in the US…

And, Kyle, you can reduce any debate to its lunatic fringes while emotions are (understandably) sky high. I personally don't think political posturing over open graves is constructive let alone in anything less than appalling taste.

Well that wasn't political posturing, it was "hey look at a couple of messed…

Timothy McVeigh? The Atlanta Olympic bomber? IRA bombings in the UK? Attempting to blow up a nightclub full of "promiscous women" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5016274.stm)? The nail bomb killings in the UK? That's just off the top of my head.

And all of them were terrorists who carried out well planned, meticulous attacks…

a blogger at National Review on line is wondering why the kids weren't brave enough to rush the guy

I am not surprised. Whenever something like this happens, rightist commentators sneer at the bystanders for not doing as Chuck Norris would have done. These people live in a fantasy world…