Artistic innovation
It's all about communication.

Agnostic innovation
It's all about communion.

Now I get a nasty login form every time I open a public address page.

"To view this page, you need to log in to area “Staff” on dev.scoop.co.nz."

All fixed. They were switching over to a new website and for a short time on Friday night that happened because…

So apologies!!

I was wondering why the guy who wrote some of the ridiculous things he was…

Artistic innovation

It's all about communication.

Was that a real post or were you just trying out your quotation ability? :D

type 2 asterisks ( * ) before it, and another 2 after the word, it will then come out bold when you post.

if you want to make a word italic:
type 2 underscores ( _ ) before it, and another 2…

if you are following the instructions at the bottom left and it isn't happening,…

from recollection the charge towards this embarrassment was lead by Paul 'I don't know art but i know what i like' Holmes. such a paragon of taste.

You might be right. The most irritating thing about the whole situation were the outright lies being told about the cost of the…

Just picking up on an earlier part of the thread, another way in which the market has found possible solutions to valuing future performance and allowing investment (for sport read art) the Freakonomics blog has a good link:

http://biz.yahoo.com/weekend/jockexchange_1.html

Imagine artists being able to sell 20 percent…

the reactions of our mass media to artistic innovation make us look like a fucking backwater...Witness the total farce of the newspaper coverage over the Et.Al. Venice work.

from recollection the charge towards this embarrassment was lead by Paul 'I don't know art but i know what…

Artistic innovation.

Now, art can be unusual in the sense – it’s not like a car paint job or, well – pretty much any other commercial product – in that sometimes the work that has the most utility is not immediately apparent.…

I am all for decent financial support of artists and artisans – my comment wasn't meant to be an argument for suggesting 'if they really enjoy their work they shouldn't get paid, or shouldn't get paid well', nor…

I couldn’t care a stuff about the world. Painting keeps me off the streets and I take my brain for a walk…If everybody did that, there wouldn’t be any wars.

Philip Trusttum, 1996

I think Riddley's point is that it is often very difficult to "get paid" without compromising the integrity of the art.

I'm not convinced. Especially because I was talking sport first.

If you're doing something that you like and then someone says "here's some money, keep doing that thing but…

[Eric B]: Yo Rakim, what's up?
[Rakim]: Yo, I'm doing the knowledge, E., I'm trying to get paid in full

The remix that Eric B & Rakim Hated in Full....but they still took that large cheque.

I think Riddley's point is that it is often very difficult to "get paid" without…

Bollocks. I love writing. I love it more when I get paid.

[Eric B]: Yo Rakim, what's up?
[Rakim]: Yo, I'm doing the knowledge, E., I'm trying to get paid in full
[E]: Well, check this out, since Nobry Walters is our agency, right?
[R]: True
[E]: Kara Lewis is…

Finally, even though a piece of graphic art such a a painting or drawing has been purchased the copyright belongs to the artist unless there is a written waiver of that right by the artist.

Interesting, because both Wedding and "boudoir" photographers have clauses asserting their copyright despite you commissioning…

when something intrinsically rewarding is changed to being extrinsically rewarding, the peasure diminishes. don't believe me? try it some time.

Bollocks. I love writing. I love it more when I get paid.

I think Riddley's point is that it is often very difficult to "get paid" without compromising the integrity…

Bollocks. I love writing. I love it more when I get paid.

Good one RB. On the subject of Art and royalties there seems to me to be some confusion. The original concept of protection of the rights of the person who conceived a new anything was to ensure that…

perfectly serious hadyn. when something intrinsically rewarding is changed to being extrinsically rewarding, the peasure diminishes.
don't believe me? try it some time. or google some of the literature on the topic.

Bollocks. I love writing. I love it more when I get paid.

wow, that's some segue.

Not everyone aspires to being a paid pro, some play for other reasons

Methinks Merc is actually Steve Crow.

Is the sarcasm Ridley?

Crap what is with my typing this arvo?!

Personally I would love to get paid to do something I want to do. As opposed to doing something I'm not really into just to pay for my hobbies.

Not everyone aspires to being a paid pro, some play for other reasons

Yeah but we're not talking about losers....just a joke, just a joke :)

But playing for your club side won't keep players here.

Comparing an author to a painter would only be valid if authors made money from their original manuscripts and the printing press didn't exist.

A-ha! And so it begins ... the argument over which artist deserves a rolyalty and which doesn't. So if a painter paints an original canvas s/he…

I could imagine artists selling the paiting but keeping the didgial rights – which could wind up being worth more. And would digital rights be…

when was the last time any of the All Blacks played two or three weeks in a row for their club side

Quite a few of them turn out for their clubs. Jerry Collins, for one, is well known for showing up for his club (Northern?). While still an All…

regulation tends to distort market forces. Distortion of market forces tends to lead to inefficiency and inefficiency tends to create opportunity for exploitation, which seems to require more intervention.

That can be true but it's through regulation that property rights are enforced.

Yes. And the very invention of copyright could…

regulation tends to distort market forces. Distortion of market forces tends to lead to inefficiency and inefficiency tends to create opportunity for exploitation, which seems to require more intervention.

That can be true but it's through regulation that property rights are enforced.

When art dealers make big money from selling…

He is shocked and stunned that today's topic is rugby and art, and somehow, in this country, we have let the artists take over the thread :D

Seriously though…

Yes. Nat's points were well made. If there was to be a new right created it would have to be tightly drawn.

I agree that the right would have to be tightly drawn, but in some cases we are seeing legislation being applied or interepreted in ways that are consistent…

And just as importantly from the commercial/financial perspective, 'who is the artist'?

To torture the sports analogy a little more, while professional sports organisations seem to have cracked a market solution to future value, its usually to the…

'immersiveness'???? Shudder.

But you're right.

Grizz Wyllie played fewer tests in his entire four year career (11) than the ABs will play this year.

I'm presuming that if I have some interesting life experience that Hollywood wants to make a movie of, and pays me a sum for the pleasure, it's acting on a moral, rather than a legal right. Anyone else know? Can I copyright my life story?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6558795.stm

I don't know about art, but I do have to wonder what's the going rate to give those sweet cheeks a lascivious pat... :)

I'm sure something could be arranged for charity ...

I think I can recall reading an article by or about Dick Frizzell who spoke out against the artist's royalty in the Listener a couple of years back, which surprised me.

It doesn't surprise me. Dick was one of the first, and still one of relatively few, painters to work…

but I do have to wonder what's the going rate to give those sweet cheeks a lascivious pat... :)

There you go – and should ANton get a cut if you decide to onsell that butt pat?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/search/story.cfm?storyid=000E209E-0C93-155B-9BD583027AF1014B

Heh – should at least get a taste :)

I would love to, but to expect it is another issue. I sold it…

"if the owners of your early work onsold it tomorrow for 25 times what you sold it for then, should you as the original creator get a slice of that increased market value?"

If the purchasers of your early vintages onsold them tomorrow for…

Should I, though, expect to get paid for the work I did years ago when I was new at it and inexperienced and unknown?

People pay lots of money…

There's a pretty big difference there. People buy books in bulk, and people don't tend to buy paintings in the same way.

Cough... Perhaps I'm running in the wrong circles, but I don't…

Fair enough, but if the owners of your early work onsold it tomorrow for 25 times what you sold it for then, should you as the…

It seems to me that you could really only have your cake and eat it if the government paid…

I still remain to be convinced, however, that artists have any more entitlement to an 'artists' resale royalty', than New Zealand writers have to a cut if their books start appreciating in the market for modern first editions.

Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! Analogy police, sir. We've had reports of a terrible…

That would make the tantrum they threw down in Christchurch, demanding the Govett-Brewster…

BTW,…

Whilst I agree with Tom's sentiment that no-one is owed a living, I'd suggest that the artist's royalty conceptually…

you know something the art market is driven by fashion, hype and plain old changing tastes

Totally,…

And, lacking for the moment a tidy segue involving Anton Oliver, I'll just push on into the day's other item of business

There couldn't be a better segue between art and rugby than the man that posed naked for a recent piece of modern art!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/search/story.cfm?storyid=000E209E-0C93-155B-9BD583027AF1014B

a big, posh artist type who has certain refined lifestyle expectations

Tom, this is nonsense. You have exposed your ignorance about art and artists in New Zealand quite thoroughly. Most all artists in NZ make almost nothing from their work. In the similar feild of music publishing, Mike Chunn reports…

Its a market driven response to the same sort of issue, if a club…

Um, a fair cut of what? First, I think the majority…

If one was to compare with football (soccer for any heathens out there) then the global open market often has little impact on the national game (take Brazil for example, virtually…

But I recall that there was a reproduction right implicit in the price. Do I recall correctly? Anyone know how that works? Who grants the right and who gets the money?

My understanding is that the Family Trust in Colin's case has control over the name and the reproduction rights.…

But I recall that there was a reproduction right implicit in the price. Do I recall correctly? Anyone know how that works? Who grants the right and who gets the money?

My understanding is that purchasing an artwork, does not give you the right to reproduce the artwork and sell…

But seriously, I think comparisons with music have limits, other than to suggest that a collection system is viable. You're selling copies of works, not the originals.

And that's true..my tongue was firmly placed....but there was, and still is, a move afoot in the US to license secondhand CD retailers,…

Whether or not it should be done...? I can't see any logical reason for it, except that it's a way of returning more money to artists and encouraging art production.

Which is precisely the rationale for copyright itself.

As long as they don't mind, I'm never planning to buy a…

Artists can often get money from…

If it has proved workable in other jurisdictions then I'd probably support it.

If it puts power in the hands of the artist, rather than making…

I will say again: no one is owed a living. If you feel compelled to be an artist then good on you, but capitalism can be a cruel mistress so don’t expect others to save from your own mistakes if you sell to cheap.

I somehow don't think Colin McCahon…

Likely to be the same here I suspect.

You don't actually know any artists, do you?

There's no intrinsic right in any of that.

Well, there's no intrinsic right in any kind of property, really. It's a social convenience that we have property rights that go beyond "what you can take, or stop others from taking."

Or that you being given the use of someone else's intellectual property – just like, at the risk of sounding utterly…

This whole idea that artists – or the RIAA – is owed a living is rediculous. You sell something, then it belongs to someone else and if they make money out of it then good on them. Its not hewn in stone that artists are guaranteed a living.

Maybe not,…

Well, not an entirely facetious question IMO. I recently wanted to replace my ratty reading copy of Maurice Gee's 'Going West'. Being the cheap bastard…

Does it…

Can I get a cut of the Trade Me and Ebay prices some of my early stuff hauls in now then? I like this idea....

You need to be cleverer: certain bold alternative music artists in NZ have become quite adept at creating scarcity and then hauling the last box…

The other concern I personally give most weight to are the artists who are worried that if the speculator market is undermined they'll lose exposure. Dealers and suchlike? Feh. I'm inclined to see middlemen as at best…

Other than that, I'm relatively relaxed, so long as it isn't implemented in such a way as to encourage art to be whisked off to a nearby country with no reciprocal laws for sale.

I guess there's that risk with the Australian government having nixed the idea in favour of…

Personally I can see no particular reason for copyright to run even 50 years past death; 25 seems perfectly adequete. A famous relative ought not be a sinecure.

Other than that, I'm relatively relaxed, so long…