it might dent his street cred.

As Simon points out, this is what exactly what Zawahiri said – but he…

it might dent his street cred.

so saying he was "aware" is pretty much a full admission of what had…

This seems a very far cry from your latest position that bin Laden was merely 'aware of the CIA's presence'.

The phrase "aware of the CIA's presence" did not come from me, it came from Fisk...I merely quoted that entire paragraph to counter your claim that Fisk said the…

Stephen prefers to believe that the whole radical Islam thing is a CIA conspiracy undertaken on behalf of that whole military industrial complex thingy.

No, nothing is ever that black and white.
Clearly, radical Islam is mainly a product of western interference (Russian, European, American) in the Islamic world,…

a) The US government supports, and has in the past supported, regimes and people that do not adhere to liberal democratic principles;
b) It is bitterly ironic that during the Cold War the US trained, funded and…

You seem to be shifting the goalposts in this debate. Manukuras original claim was that:

bin Laden and his cohorts received most of their funding, weapons and training for many years from the CIA

This seems a very far cry from your latest position that bin Laden was merely…

You seem to be shifting the goalposts in this debate. Manukuras original claim was that:

bin Laden and his cohorts received most of their funding, weapons and training for many years from the CIA

This seems a very far cry from your latest position that bin Laden was merely…

You wrote:

If you can't figure out why the US likes to stay on the good side of the Saudi Royal family then you really are in trouble.

Please show me where I said I "can't figure out why the US likes to stay on the good side of…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maktab_al-Khadamat

Fisk actually wrote:

Some of his current Afghan fellow fighters had been trained earlier by the CIA in the very camps that were the target of the recent US missiles--but whereas they had been called camps for "freedom fighters" when…

From this statement, I see that you fall into the "wilfully ignorant" category. At this stage in the game, to deny that Bin Laden received many years of CIA and ISI backing is somewhat disingenuous. To put it mildly.

Feel free to find some evidence from a reliable source (socialistworker.org…

As I read through these comments could everyone just take the time to realise that all faiths can be weilded and twisted to the benefit of leaders/warlords/organised crime/murderers etc?

There are not just fundamentalist Muslims in this world, I can think of a few murders instigated by fundamentalist…

It's pretty unlikely that bin Laden recieved funding from the US or the CIA while he was in Pakistan or Afghanistan

From this statement, I see that you fall into the "wilfully ignorant" category. At this stage in the game, to deny that Bin Laden received many years of…

I agree that the US essentially supported anyone that opposed the Soviets and that some of this support, in retrospect, looks foolish and in some instances was demonstrably unjust. Not Khmer Rouge/Cultural Revolution bad, but South American/middle eastern dictator bad.

In fact radical Islam was not unintended at all.

…

bin Laden and his cohorts received most of their funding, weapons and training for many years from:
1. the CIA
2. the US-backed Pakistani security services

It's pretty unlikely that bin Laden recieved funding from the US or the CIA while he was in Pakistan or Afghanistan, since his…

Don't you think this is an exaggeration?

No. Slightly immoderate language maybe, but exaggeration? No.

Frankly, even if I grant you this, so what if the Taliban and radical Islam are an unintended consequence of the Cold War?

That's a funny one--radical Islam an unintended consequence of the Cold…

Anyone who believes that this "war on terror" bullshit has got anything to do with religion or defending liberal values is either stupid or wilfully ignorant.

Don't you think this is an exaggeration?

All sorts of high-tech weaponry and training was provided to attack the Soviets supporting the Afghan…

but bin Ladeb considers East Timor and Kosovo as part of the caliphate

why would he consider East Timor, a predominantly Roman Catholic country, to be part of the caliphate?

I didn't come up with any direct quotes from bin Ladeb railing against liberal values but his support for the…

I've lived in a couple muslim countries now, and there are, indeed, some very nice people who practise Islam. But I'm sure there are some…

I think a little of both. Many Javanese are, naturally, as with all religion, very devout but clearly there is no clash. Islam came to Java about 600 years ago when Arab traders settled on the North Coast.

Generally, as with many religions, not least of which is Christianity,…

I find Manakura's views oddly similar to those of D'Souza's.

You could read it like that, but I assure you I think nothing is ever entirely one person or groups fault. Life is soe complicated shit. I just recognise the thoughtless exercise of military might by Western nations against Muslim…

I believe this makes Islam the only major organised religion that explicitly protects the property rights of women

Javanese society, overwhelmingly Muslim of course, recognises the mother as the source of societal power. The family's mana flows, in a very complicated manner (Javanese society is very very complicated) from the…

i can see i'd better start shaving my head, pronto...

Even if you did you'd still be in a minority – Bhuddists make up only 5.89% of the worlds observers of religion!

Here's my question to Weston – what do you think is 'right' with Islam?

From the wikipedia page on Sharia law:

I believe this makes Islam the only major organised religion that explicitly protects the property rights of women. Correct me if I'm wrong (Unfortunately I had trouble finding an internet source that cited references- can you help with that Anjum?

Also have a read through of
http://www.ias.org/articles/Women_in_Islam.html

No doubt the ideals of the prophet are often not actually practiced by Muslim men, but then the same applies to many cherised ideals of Jesus and of Western modernity, such as equality and personal liberty.

I'm not resiling from my criticism of radical Islam, but I figure not all of the 1,300,000,000 Muslims on our planet can be entirely bad.

the reaction to the word "Muslim" is some quarters brings to mind that old fifties schlock horror "Them", which I saw years ago when the…

i can see i'd better start shaving my head, pronto...

I'm not resiling from my criticism of radical Islam, but I figure not all of the 1,300,000,000 Muslims on our planet can be entirely bad.

While I'm sure the CIA Factbook serves a hidden and nefarious purpose, it can also be used to show that Che is, like, totally…

Yeah, but I really don't think that getting your mosque spraypainted by skinheads is really…

And I haven't noticed any western industrialised country 'raining violence' down on Indonesia, multi-cultural New Zealand or large swathes of London in the recent past

Didn't read Anjum's post then? I use violence more widely than just dropping bombs and shooting first and asking questions later. It all counts towards…

First of all, thank you for taking the time to respond.

My position is a little more subtle than I have space to explain here, but if I am to convincingly defend what is right with Islam to others I need the latitude to condemn what I believe to…

It doesn't get much more ironic that slagging off the horrors of modernity over the internet.

O please, of course I recognise the irony. I'm merely pointing that many core aspects of the modern project are rather fucked and have hugley negative outcomes for much of the globes population, but…

It doesn't get much more ironic that slagging off the horrors of modernity over the internet.

Must agree. Modernity works for me ...

Agreed about Radical Islam, and well radical just about everything especially Fundy Christianity, but what is so great about the modern world?

Dentistry

Industrialisation, global capital, nationalism, colonisation and so on are all inherent to modernism and they aint nothing great about any of those things.

It doesn't get much…

when the patience runs out, when someone finally snaps, will that make us all terrorists?

it is with heartfel regret that i say, yes.

assalam aleykum.

however, while you all have been debating about what sort of threats islam & muslims might present, our mosque in hamilton was…

Radical Islam should be opposed because it is unjust, violent, anti-modern and lends itself to authoritarian political structures.

Agreed about Radical Islam, and well radical just about everything especially Fundy Christianity, but what is so great about the modern world? Industrialisation, global capital, nationalism, colonisation and so on are all…

iraq is bad? "those damn liberals won't let us win"
israel the #1 cause of disillusionment with in the ME? "those damn…

Atheism does not constitute a worldview; it simply expresses the rejection of God. It is an attitude towards one specific issue, rather than representing a broader effort to understand the world. Humanism does not only reject belief in God but in all dogma – whether…

(I'm an atheist myself, I'm just really fascinated by religion as a sociological phenomenon.)

It seems to me that fascination can be too easily translated as tolerance/acceptance of the belief system – which surely will only serve to perpetuate its worth and credibility amongst the believers.

I'm of the…

By referring to the London bombings he gives a bit of context to his views..."On the other hand, no society on…

Maybe such people do exist but I have not heard of them. All I can see is some people…

The bagging seems to me to often…

amis just demonstrated the exact ignorance we're so concerned about. blaming internal allies for conservative folly. particularly blind support for israel in insane actions like bombing a neighbouring democracy, or the 'accelerate armageddon' POV.

the policies…

"People of liberal sympathies, stupefied by relativism, have become the apologists for a creedal wave that is racist, misogynist, homophobic, imperialist, and genocidal. To put it another way, they are up the arse of those that want them dead."

Martin Amis being interviewed in the Independent

Sometimes your enemy's enemy…

If I was of a left-wing frame of mind

Surely, Craig, caring about human rights is not merely the province of the left wing? (just teasing)

I don't see either Tamaki OR Vercoe having a policy influence. But Tamaki has a posse.

However, you are very right to point out…

Yes, Stephen, and who do you think is more likely to have Helen Clark's diary secretary return his call or get a nice puff-piece in the O'Herald (which is probably real influence…

(If you think tamaki is a typical baptist you are badly misinformed).

More generally, I find Mark's unfounded assertions equally offensive. Like span, I'm equally opposed to fundamentalism of all kinds.

I respect your scepticism about religion, and my purpose here is not to defend the religious right. However, I think this (and Span's position) are species of false equivalence.

Ba'hai, Brian…

the tenets of islam are *wild* and *radical* ideas like charity, the battle to self-improve ("jihad"), and community.

the bloke in Australia is a wanker, plain and simple. although, if you've ever witnessed ozzy persecution of…

Now of course they are not mainstream, and in New Zealand, they are a tiny minority who will never get any traction. And the vast bulk of Christians in New Zealand are blameless…

What particularly concerns me is the use of religion and religious institutions as a means of social…

I would readily concede that Western power has caused significant injustice, even I though I believe Western power (and the US in particular) to be an positive influence in world affairs. The liberal…

And if Anglican vicars are typical Christians, is the Mad Mufti of Oz a typical Muslim?

I'm so amused by the argument posed in this book that I just can't…

As for shitting on [radical] Christians, that might be partly because it's our problem. It's always a bit less of a shock when foreigners behave badly.

Where as I care about nutjob Christians more than nutjob Muslims because I know which group are a greater risk to me.

Well, Russell, I think that's a tad naive. It's…

That flash movie with the empires bouncing back and forth over the Mid East might suggest one factor.

And the more recent upsurge in holier than thou…

A brief example:

O weariness of men, who turn from GOD,
To the grandeur of your mind and the glory of your action,
To arts and inventions and daring enterprises . . .
T.S.…

pity that none of us are defending islam, but instead trying to point out the hypocrisy of accusations that *it* is orthodox and one-eyed, when christianity is as bad.

Normally you are pretty sharp but you're letting yourself down today. OBL's primary stated concern with moral values is within the "caliphate". The fact that gay men can marry in Hawaii, I think, is/was of next to no concern to him.

I think if Osama does rail against the 'liberals' it's in a wider sense. The 'Western Liberal Values' that Osama has the most objection to are the biggies. Rule of law, freedoms of speech and religion, full citizenship rights for females, democracy.

I think you are probably right (although everything…

modern scholarship argues fairly strongly he was a galilean jew, probably looked more akin to the average arab, and was occupied as a 'teacher' in the same mode as modern rabbi.

the only certainty is that…

The fact that he's also teed off about…

And for that reason 'End of faith' draws no distinction. At present we don't subject any…

Rightly or wrongly (and there is a great deal…

I've just finished reading La Vie en bleu, and I…

a catch-all for anything your listeners don't quite get, but are 'agin'?

and can someone explain the origin of the 'osama's plan was to bankrupt the…

...as this interview with Stephen Colbert shows.

He's having Bill O'Reilly on next.

And Colbert's on The O'Reilly Factor

bin Laden wants a fundamentalist pan-Islamic state – he's said over and over that "Western" liberals values are the enemy

I'd be surprised to hear bin Laden referred to 'western liberal values' – it's a distinction I doubt he'd bother to make. Usually when Al Qaeda complain about values they're…

1. He isn't the first one to seek regime change in the Arab world. The only difference is that…

bin Laden wants a fundamentalist pan-Islamic state – he's said over and over that "Western" liberals values are the enemy

Neil, if you can provide the quotes, I will concede that point. My understanding is that Bin Laden wants American troops to leave Saudi Arabia, regime change there and in…

From Wishart to Bin Laden, they are all nasty pieces of work, angry and puzzled and afraid, its just a matter of how far they are willing to go to impose their craziness on the…

You think the Taliban regime liked liberal…

It's true that bin Laden's motives are a reaction to his perceived threat of Western liberal values. So to that extent liberals are "to blame".

So why doesn't Bin Laden say that? The only Americans to whom he objected before 9/11 were the US troops in Saudi…

But of course D’Souza’s remedy of backtracking on liberal values is completely crazy, at least to any liberal.

It's the sheer extent of the backtracking I find alarming. He really gives the impression that he'd like a sort of theocracy, and one that would severely limit the perceived excesses of…

The connection between that and the Twin Towers is extremely tenuous, but I thought I'd…

It's true that bin Laden's motives are a reaction to his perceived threat of Western liberal values. So to that extent liberals are "to blame".

But of course D’Souza’s remedy of backtracking on liberal values is completely crazy, at least to…