Parmesan North.

My, aren't you doing well. :)

Hey, I'm your figment.

True.

Soo if I am also, are you making the pizzas?What's the topping?

Quite. The idea of meaninglessness is itself meaningless.

and if meaning means sense
ergo senselessness = e
...by gum!

Something to chew over indeed...

Ears lookin' achoo kid...

We should probably leave a monolith somewhere...

we don't need no steenkin' monoliths!…

a monolith somewhere

So long as there is someone left to thank for all the fish. (Hey, it was the most philosophical I could get right now.)

Oh, this is also too pertinent for words – Doctors prescribe drugs that don't work.

Aw shit. Got a new pill this week and I thought it was workin' now I jus' dunno. :)
To be completely honest, the hospital came up with the exact same suspicion as my acupuncturist…

Gio, I might have missed that conceptualisation if it appeared earlier in the thread

Top of this very page.

Hilary, great, glad you enjoyed them. I didn't…

I rewatched Gandhi recently, I understand the meaning of his life as being both his commitment to his principles but also the political change he achieved. Is that external validation?

It's internal to the human race, but rarely if ever a property of the individual in absolute isolation. 'The meaning…

Existence isn't meaningless. It's just that there's no external source of meaning.

I'm not all that opposed to…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHDdqubE7zQ

I had to put it up myself

as a demonstration of the importance of context.

in my new incarnation as a postmodern hippy dungbeetle,

Fantastic band name, The Postmodern Hippy Dungbeetles.

Old hippie alert: there's a for-a-short-time-only clip of Neil Young tearing up Glastonbury last weekend with an epic version of 'Keep On Rockin' in the Free World' in today's Hard News.

Link whore.

The idea of meaninglessness is itself meaningless.

Oh, a pox on all of you mature self-actualised beings, and your calm acceptance of everything. A pox, I say! :)

(However, in my new incarnation as a postmodern hippy dungbeetle, I have this little ball of shit over here I'll be working…

The bloody BBC keeps removing all its coverage from YouTube so I had to put it up myself. Be…

Existence isn't meaningless. It's just that there's no external source of meaning. Things only have meaning and force insofar as we give it to them. So go on, make your life meaningful.

Quite. The idea of meaninglessness is itself meaningless.

So go on, make your life meaningful.
(I know this sounds like annoying hippy drivel, but I do actually believe this.)

Well, then....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEQxEJ5_5zA

Look. My brain wants there to be meaning; yet there is obviously no external source of meaning. These two things are incompatible

Oh no they're not. It's what Jameson calls the meaningless materiality of the body and nature versus the meaning-endowment of history and of the social. We produce the…

Russell, I need to report a nest of hippies in PAS. They've infiltrated, and they're taking over.

Tee Hee.
Shall I post more Grateful Dead clips?

But why did the big bang happen?

Once nothing realised it was there...

music is just some weird evolutionary button-pressing, like we're all 'hardwired' to like it,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q49Bs0Gp7OU

We are our own gods...

When do I get the power to smite mine enemies with plagues of boils?

annoying hippy drivel

God, the freedom! I'm getting high on the possibilities!

Russell, I need to report a nest of hippies in PAS. They've infiltrated, and they're taking over. (Also, I've had a moment of clarity: I think I might have to include myself in their number. Christ.)

Nothing would…

But why did the big bang happen?

Once nothing realised it was there...

quote>music is just some weird evolutionary button-pressing, like we're all 'hardwired' to like it,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q49Bs0Gp7OU

We are our own gods...

In a discussion involving the Greens and evolutionary psychologists, this couldn't have been put any better really.

We are our own gods...

[Beware, slippery slope ahead...]

I find

our very existence's utter meaninglessness

to be really rather liberating and I'm sorry, Danielle, that it depresses you.

I tend to agree. Nothing would depress me more than the possibility that it was all part of a cosmic plan and that some god was behind it all. Which…

Well, recent estimates suggest that the planet's CO2 levels will decrease to the point where photosynthesis is no longer possible within 600 million years, so there might be the chance for another Green Party to emerge. So I guess we should appreciate the one we've already got.

Will Kedgley still…

I find our very existence's utter meaninglessness to be really rather liberating and I'm sorry, Danielle, that it depresses you.

Prescisely! If there is no ultimate point to our existence (or at least not one that we are ever going to be able to discern), then we are entirely free…

(I know this sounds like annoying hippy drivel, but I do actually believe this.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZyuULy9zs

The planet will get on just fine, plus or minus (okay, minus) a few species. Then new life forms will emerge, and evolve, and maybe one of them will become as poisonous for themselves and the others as we are, but perhaps this time they'll manage to…

to be really rather liberating

My husband says that too. Perhaps my ego is so massive that I can't bear to accept that my life has no larger significance. Heh. :)

You know what also bums me out? Scientists working out (for example) that music is just some weird evolutionary…

our very existence's utter meaninglessness

to be really rather liberating and I'm sorry, Danielle, that it depresses you.

That said, there's plenty of behaviour by other members of our species that depresses me...

Perhaps we need Brother Love's Travelling Salvation Show ? (I'm at work & can't access YouTube,…

Possible documentary title: From Eczema to Existentialism: A Day in the Life of PAS

I think I'm going to have to take the rest of the day off now to accommodate the pining.

So you're thinking page 19 wasn't depressing enough?

Only one thing to do at this point, then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48cTUnUtzx4

Didn't Wake Up in Time

Plus we need all the space we an get on the monolith to explain consensus democracy. We might have to use the B side even (PTO).

In that case the monolith will need to be of a size that it can be seen from the Moon.

Christ. This is the most depressing thread-page in the history of PAS. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCTF-IksHQ8
Take it away Mr. Diamond.

We should probably leave a monolith somewhere etched with the Greens charter.

...and maybe a small apology for the mess?

That's "happy chance" for us individually, but probably more irksome for the planet as a whole.

The planet will get on just fine, plus or minus (okay, minus) a few species. Then new life forms will emerge, and evolve, and maybe one of them will become as poisonous for themselves…

You seem to have taken offence, for which I apologise.

And apologies in return if I came across as a little more testy and blunt than I intended. I took no offence, just clarifying my own position in response.

I tend to be somewhat saddened by the throngs who think…

And given the way that our species is treating the planet I see us as a temporary construct only.

Even if we were the best planetary custodians in the universe, there's bugger all we could do if an asteroid hit us, or the sun burned off the atmosphere. Unless we…

You seem to have taken offence, for which I apologise.

I was just 'setting out my stall' and indicating where my own personal viewpoint sits. I tend to…

But I am human, and therefore find it difficult to look at the world in any…

We have brains that tend to analyse, seek patterns and look for causality. It seems like a human-centric view of the universe/life/whatever to seek a reason for why we are here, or 'why does…

Basic idea is that the magesteria don't overlap cos theology doesn't cover anything at all.

I can imagine Newton sitting down and working out his laws of motion and figuring out the way the Universe works and with him, a cat wandering around. The reason we had no idea how cats worked was because, since Newton, we had proceeded by…

Giovanni was arguing that :

Since it's statistically better for the individual not to mutate (most mutations are bad for ya), it increases your chances of reproduction. Hence if it was somehow possible for a "stop mutating" mutation to develop, it would give an advantage to the…

It was The God Delusion, and it was more about how religion makes claims about reality all the time, and we should call it on it. Not quite what you're after.

As I recall, Dawkins did give non-overlapping magisteria as expressed by Levy a right old kicking in one chapter,…

I agree, asexual replication doesn't mean there will be no copying errors. Perhaps it was Rich who was saying that?

No, you were very clear about this from the start – even in asexual reproduction there will be occasional mutations when the copying goes slightly wrong. But you seemed to…

Dawkins has a go at the non-overlapping magisterium thesis Giovanni's just expressed. Can't remember the details, but it made sense at the time (a brave atheist reads Dawkins on a plane).

Can you remember the gist, or the book? Some evolutionary psychologists do claim to have worked out what conscience…

And I'm not a Mr, Rich.

Many apologies.

And I'm not a Mr, Rich. Most blokes don't get homeopathy foisted on them via pregnancy care books. Unless…

Yes, but it's a situation which begs for a 'why' question – why are they separate?

Isn't that what the enlightenment is based on? Science and technology shall henceforth be the means of describing and manipulating the material world; let religion and philosophy deal with the metaphysical stuff. You don't…

But isn't metaphysics by definition not the concern of scientists? At least in the current setup, I mean.

Yes, but it's a situation which begs for a 'why' question – why are they separate?

Ask enough 'why' questions from either a scientific perspective or a metaphysical perspective (or religious), and…

but I think that one of the reasons that most species use sexual reproduction is because this isn't so.

I prefer to think it is because (a) its more fun and (b) the Cosmic Ironist in the Sky thought it would be a good way to both give us some…

‘Delta Dawnn, wots that flau-wa you have on…'

Wow. My lifelong fondness for massive 70s country-pop hits is explained by this. I was brainwashed at a young age!

PS: and a tonic for the NZ film industry – The EczeMen franchise starts here – casting tips anyone?

Hasn't Michael Gambon already definitively scratched all Dennis Potter's itches?

Re: "how" vs "why", it sounds a little but like you're phrasing the same question in different ways.

How is the journey, why is the reason.

In which case I'd be tempted to suggest that evolution doesn't have a 'why', just a bunch of 'hows' flowing backwards through time.

Beyond the Pale(ontologists)...
Creation Museum visit

Meat Physics...

Evolution doesn't care any more than gravity does. ;)

Gravity sucks!

Yrs
Ian Stein
away with the theories

Re eczema: I've lately discovered myrrh is useful treating my eczema. I have it on the legs – as a kid it was all over my feet and legs, especially…

Wouldn't that be metaphysical?

Yep, that's kind of what I'm clumsily struggling towards.

But isn't metaphysics by definition not the concern of scientists? At least in the current setup, I mean.

About a year later Nirgal and the other children began to figure out how to deal with the days when they were taught by Sax. He would start at the blackboard, sounding like a characterless AI, and…

Wouldn't that be metaphysical?

Yep, that's kind of what I'm clumsily struggling towards.

Asking 'why does X happen?' is the fundamental scientific starting point.

Once we know why X happens, we can start to do something useful with that knowledge – we can apply it so that we act on our environment, and not the other way around.

Really? I'm kind of at…

Are they really asking themselves why it happens? What good could that do?

Gio, you're missing the point.

Asking 'why does X happen?' is the fundamental scientific starting point.

Once we know why X happens, we can start to do something useful with that knowledge – we can apply it…

No, what makes the difference is an organism's ability to have offspring that survive to be able reproduce themselves.

It's not what drives evolution though. According to the theory at least – it's natural selection of replicators, not natural selection of replicators one generation down the line. Not sure where…

Evolution doesn't care about the population, nor about long term surviva of the species,

Evolution doesn't care any more than gravity does. ;)

it cares about the single organism's ability to reproduce one more time

No, what makes the difference is an organism's ability to have offspring that survive to…

Evolution doesn't care about the population, nor about long term surviva of the species, it cares about the single organism's ability to reproduce one more time.

Evolution is actually a process without a care in the world. It is not a directed process so it has no over-riding direction; it…

No offence, but how much Wiggles have you watched? For one thing, there's four of them. Plus, the major strength of the Wiggles is that they don't imitate children – they are clearly depicting adults, who occasionally interact with children.

You got me on the numbers – if only I'd…

Evolution doesn't care about the population

We get no love even from abstract ideas?

Hence if it was somehow possible for a "stop mutating" mutation to develop, it would give an advantage to the carriers, and soon enough nobody would mutate anymore.

Until their failure to mutate led to them…

I personally really rate the Wiggles as one of the better franchises.

I'm just saying: Yo Gabba Gabba. It is rad. Biz Markie teaches you how to beatbox.

A better argument is that imperfect reproduction is a good way of ensuring a range of physical characteristics within a population.

Evolution doesn't care about the population, nor about long term surviva of the species, it cares about the single organism's ability to reproduce one more time. Since it's statistically…

... The Wiggles. BTW, am I the only one that finds it a little weird that, in a world prone to moral panics about child molestation, three rather creepy child-imitators are Australia's all-time top-grossing act?

No offence, but how much Wiggles have you watched? For one thing, there's four of…

You mean apart from any researcher who wants to try to get to grips with superbugs and various other nasties that are evolving away from being affected by pennecillin and the like?

Proper medical research using proper scientific theorising, y'see :)

Are they really asking themselves why it happens? What…

Nobody is really asking why it happens, are they?

You mean apart from any researcher who wants to try to get to grips with superbugs and various other nasties that are evolving away from being affected by pennecillin and the like?

Proper medical research using proper scientific theorising, y'see :)…

It'd be a bit like asking why gravity happens.

Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory. Oldy-goody.

Neil Diamond, right? I'm all alone in thinking he wrote some good songs? 'I'm a Believer'! That's a good song!

Cracklin' Rosie
Cherry Cherry (She got the way to move me)
Daydream Believer

I believe I could go on, but Ghod there were some real turkeys. And you can have…

And 'Lydia the Tattoo'd Lady'?

I'd go with Groucho's version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4zRe_wvJw8

state-sanctioned pedagogical grooviness

The seventies were (was. I hate that agreement rule) a decade in which everyone made some vague attempt to be groovy. My grandad…

no-one really understands how or why it happens

Nobody is really asking why it happens, are they? It just happens, reproduction does not produce perfect copies. It'd be a bit like asking why gravity happens. And I thought we had a pretty good idea of the how: natural selections of…

Evolution, for example, is still a theory – of course the evidence for it is substantial.

Evolution is an established fact.

The theory part is the mechanism – no-one really understands how or why it happens (although we know if definitely does happen).

I'm guessing someone had been told to include popular songs and so be relevant to the kids but hadn't really thought the whole thing through.

Ah, state-sanctioned pedagogical grooviness – the long road to the final hegemony of The Wiggles. BTW, am I the only one that finds it a…

Heroin was once marketed as a cure for morphine addiction.

Swallowing spiders was once regarded as a very useful way of catching flies, if the songs we sung at my primary school are anything to go by.

And snap on 'Sound of Silence' and that Diamond feller. Thankfully no-snap on 'Suicide is Painless' but even the tame songs can put you off. 'In an English Country Garden' anyone?

There are studies coming through that provide small amounts of support for homeopathy's effectiveness. New Scientist has a few articles.

It has more about studies that disprove its efficacy.

Evolution was a theory inspired by consideration of a significant body of evidence (fossils etc) that was inconsistent with the previous model.…

(We were also taught Simon and Garfunkel's 'The Sound of Silence', which I find disturbing to this day. That hippie teacher in jelly sandals and a soul patch totally scarred youthful me, man!)

Heroin was once marketed as a cure for morphine addiction.

Methadone is to this day the "cure" for heroin addiction, of course. It's really just a different drug.

I had to look efficacious up in the dictionary.

did it mention Lily the Pink?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x8D4T--0v4

Those bloody McCartneys – tinkering with the culture again (with the marvellous poet Roger McGough as well)

yrs
Lydia E. Pinkham
a tonic for the troops

PS: and a tonic for…

Homeopathy can be quite effective with fears, phobias or addictions.

I would expect something that works entirely on the placebo effect to be most efficacious with mental conditions.

Stephen, not understanding a mechanism is not equivalent in science to having disproved something. There are studies coming through that provide small…

Most often they just don't have time to do other than concentrate on the body part requiring fixing.

The standard GP appointment is how long, 15 minutes? That in itself pretty much guarantees inefficacy.

Can't really understand the tension between treatment options. It has always puzzled me why 'science' should automatically have precedence over much older paradigms that gave us acupuncture or herbal treatments.

I don't find that a puzzle at all. Science is, well, science, ie a systematically tested, repeatable, reassessed body of…

Swimming – in the sea- I loved (and love.) I'm a good swimmer, built for it,and swum…

Also 'scientific' medicine doesn't have such a great record in some areas. For example, anything around fertility is best dealt with – in my opinion – by Chinese approaches (or in conjunction with). Homeopathy can be quite effective with fears, phobias or addictions.

Some things are hard to fix. In…

I spent too many uncomfortortable leporous years to be indifferent to this kind of discomfort/pain. I know: it's tiny. compared to…

Thanks Islander, Lucia…

dont go down the hydrocortisone path unless the itching is extreme

Why?

Gio,
a)check that Lucia isnt allergic to chlorine…

'scientific' medicine doesn't have such a great record in some areas

Auto-immune conditions like arthritis, for instance. The only quacks I've ever encountered were rheumatologists. Not that there aren't good clinical practitioners.

Can't really understand the tension between treatment options. It has always puzzled me why 'science' should automatically have…

A consultation is usually quite lengthy (a half hour or so at least) and treatment very personally matched to you.

We saw a (reputable, apparently quite well-regarded) homeopathic doctor for Lucia's eczema and I was horrified. Back home it's the odd GP who subscribes to it, as ours did, and…

Can't really understand the tension between treatment options. It has always puzzled me why 'science' should automatically have precedence over much older paradigms that gave us acupuncture or herbal treatments. And why you must…

And the whimsy. Don't forget the whimsy.

I did have prog-rock in mind. That and the persistent pustule whose posts have now been mercifully zit-squeezed. But yes, a dash of whimsey would have improved, say, Emerson Lake & Palmer's Fanfare for the Common Man.

Overweening pretension + minimal talent? Sounds progressive.

And the whimsy. Don't forget the whimsy.

There can be only one of us, dammit!

Annnd there it is.

See, now I'm going to walk into some PA thing with a dorky nametag, and you'll all be 'that's Danielle, for serious? She's so... short. And underwhelming.'

Not at all. You see, the shorter you are the more concentrated the aewsomosity is. Like some super-kawaii new washing power that makes…

Can Gio's imagination make me taller and more generally awe-inspiring between now and the next thing? I'm counting on you, man.

Honestly, I already prefer you to Leggy Supermodel Danielle. She's so up herself.

Overweening pretension + minimal talent?

There can be only one of us, dammit!

See, now I'm going to walk into some PA thing

And I'll be expecting a rugby jersey and spectacles, for some reason.

Yet it was the worst pain I've ever experienced by a factor of 10... and I've crawled out of several car wrecks, been beaten till my eyes swelled closed, and of course kicked in the nads on occasion.

I'd recommend an autobiography.

Hang on: are we in the prog thread now?

Overweening pretension + minimal talent? Sounds progressive.

pass your commentary beneath the eyes of the webGod

Hang on: are we in the prog thread now?

Can Gio's imagination make me taller and more generally awe-inspiring between now and the next thing? I'm counting on you, man.

No, but if you really feel the need may I suggest: platform shoes, and awesomeness pills. The latter of course for the placebo effect, as discussed upthread.

Yes, we have encountered some problems with that active. She seems to break programming.

See, now I'm going to walk into some PA thing with a dorky nametag, and you'll all be 'that's Danielle, for serious? She's so... short. And underwhelming.'

Can Gio's imagination make me taller and more generally…

You have trouble with Danielle, though, right? That's why I'm not allowed to "meet" her.

Yes, we have encountered some problems with that active. She seems to break programming.

That's why I'm not allowed to "meet" her.

You speak as if you weren't a figment yourself. What is this, Seven Hundred Characters in Search of an Author?

C'mon now, I'm pretty average but you've got to admit some of my characters are great.

You have trouble with Danielle, though, right? That's why I'm not allowed to "meet" her.

Wouldn't Confessions of a Crap Artist be more appropriate right now?

C'mon now, I'm pretty average but you've got to admit some of my characters are great. I mean take Craig.

(Now honestly all I want to do is drop everything I'm doing and reach for my copy of Flow my Tears. Curse you, Ian me!)

Wouldn't Confessions of a Crap Artist be more appropriate right now?

BTW, speaking purely as a figment, it's a bit disappointing to discover that Craig…

(Now honestly all I want to do is drop everything I'm doing and reach for my copy of Flow my Tears. Curse you, Ian me!)

Funny, I never suspected you as being behind Whaleoil, Kiwiblog and Cactus Kate.

These would be his id in action.

Funny, I never suspected you as being behind Whaleoil, Kiwiblog and Cactus Kate.

Now, about Redbaiter . . .

Well, every story needs bad guys. And some of them are pretty grotesquely bad, I mean they're Sauron-like for chrissakes – I can be a little too heavy handed at times.…

I feel so clever for having come up with Ian Dalziel...

So it was really you who bought me a coffee last night – and cried Mis cojones! when you dropped a couple of oddfellows on the footpath. As a minor figment of your imagination, I'm impressed. Now, about Redbaiter…

I *am* the New Zealand blogosphere.

Funny, I never suspected you as being behind Whaleoil, Kiwiblog and Cactus Kate.

I think you'll find that Gio believes Auckland doesn't actually exist.

I need to turn my brain into knots trying to figure out if I can make that not be contradictory with my claim.

No, see, that makes it all make sense. I was wondering how I could have met…

I think you'll find that Gio believes Auckland doesn't actually exist.

I need to turn my brain into knots trying to figure out if I can make that not be contradictory with my claim. I'm sure if I was a Philosophy Professor I could manage it easy.

That's nothing, apparently you invented all of Auckland as well.

I think you'll find that Gio believes Auckland doesn't actually exist.

I feel so clever for having come up with Ian Dalziel...

That's nothing, apparently you invented all of Auckland as well.

(What, too much?)

I do it all the time, you guys for instance are all products of my imagination.

Funny, cos I've always thought you were some sort of ghost-in-the-machine AI construct.

I mean, how else are we to explain your apparent ubiquity in the NZ blogosphere?

I do it all the time, you guys for instance are all products of my imagination.

All true – subject GT – a well known recreational KR-3 (a reality warping drug) user – has shaped us…

I do it all the time, you guys for instance are all products of my imagination

You're freaking me out now.

I can't imagine that anyone would go to the trouble of creating 700 personas and having them talk so extensively.

I do it all the time, you guys for instance are all products of my imagination.

A list of anecdotal evidence on a web page does not hit my joy button though.
http://www.kingslandosteopaths.co.nz/index.htm

I believe they're called customer testimonials and are hardly unusual on the website of any kind of private practice (one of them is from a former athlete I do some work with). That's…

What gives???

http://www.frozenshoulder.com/

Gruesome yet satisfying crunching noises were made.

Crack your bones!!! Eddie Izzard on a related topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUwnkTnHrtI

I'm conscious that physiotherapy hasn't been depicted positively in this thread, and also wary of generalising my own brief, unsatisfactory experience of it.

By way of sending some warm fuzzies in the general direction of that profession: my own back pain was well handled by a physio in Wellington (possibly…

As you say, anyone who is struck by incredible pain in the early hours should be checked. I was, and I didn't – even when my waking in a sweat and yelling certain obscenities very loudly as the pain hit disturbed…

To the question would I still inveigh against a “working treatment”?

It has been driving me nuts all night how I should or could answer the question.

Any solution that can demonstrate that it works according to tested principles is OK…

Dyan, thank you very much indeed. That's really instructive. Notes 2 and 3 we're both very conscious of, but as for number 1 – oral hygiene and its bearing on your overall health – I, at least, was quite unaware. I'll show this to Karren now.

Thanks seconded by me.…

'pathetic fallacy' is a clear category of the poetical arts
which indicates that the speaker is attributing human capacities
to inanimate objects – as when you claim that the physical universe
does not CARE

and i am more interested in your expressed sentiments as typical of…

there is nothing unclear or excessively verbal about your excerpt from me; unbless of course your account of the birth of science is blitheringly bogged down in this 'storytelling'…