He's not yet, to be a wee bit pedantic about it. Clark is still the Prime Minister and Goff is still the Defence Minister. National sent a representative — did any other party, just as a matter of interest?

PM or PM elect, you know what I mean (trying to…

Was Judith Tizard a better MP than Stuart Nash will be?

Who knows? From what I've seen of Stuart Nash (and admittedly that's not a lot) he's going to be a solid but unflashy performer in the House — on top of policy, but accessible. And doesn't confuse having a…

So does the taking of fingerprints and they do that if you are arrested even if you are not charged.

My impression was that you get fingerprinted as part of the charging process. Both times I was arrested I spent a bunch of time in the cell, then taken out…

Using your Dad's experience as a pity-me argumentative flyswatter isn't. First you dragged the poor guy into it, next you duck behind him to cry foul. Cheap and tacky.

Bullshit, Joe. If you're going to call me a liar and a partisan hypocrite, then that's not going to go unanswered.…

a) his first such anniversary since becoming PM

He's not yet, to be a wee bit pedantic about it. Clark is still the Prime Minister and Goff is still the Defence Minister. National sent a representative — did any other party, just as a matter of interest?

How you…

Simon: So were members of Helen Clark's family (a grand-uncle, if memory serves), and this son of a 28th (Maori) Batallion veteran can't give a flying fuck at a donut that she doesn't do dawn services.

Craig, sorry, just just got back to this as I'm stuck in the depths…

Like, for around six months either side of? I'd never really seen my own Dad's reticence re. the war as that much of a negative, but now you mention it, in case I ever need a wooden leg to wave . . .

Joe: If you want to bitch me,…

My concern with this approach is that it potentially fundamentally changes the system of criminal law. The basics require an act and a motivation, taking DNA alters this equation to include all previous acts.

So does the taking of fingerprints and they do that if you are arrested even if…

There were 125 public submissions on the Copyright (New Technologies) Amendment Bill when it was…

section-92a-cut-off

Probably been over egged on this site (s92) stupid bills/ laws do tend to annoy voters. The earlier references to this about getting into bed with big music were a bit cryptic but…

3,695 electorate votes went to the Greens in Auckland Central which split the vote.

Denise could be a future MP for Auckland Denise – Green candidate for AK Central

I did hear some sugestion that failing to get Tizard in was…

When I see the reputation of John Key, Bill English, Phil Goff or any other politician not of the female gender approached in the same disingenuous way I promise you, Craig, I will rush to their defence.

Purely by way of comparison, no-one copped it quite as savagely as Benson-Pope.

. . . I spent my childhood watching my usually laid back father get rather tense around Anzac Day . . .

Like, for around six months either side of? I'd never really seen my own Dad's reticence re. the war as that much of a negative, but now you…

Cheers.

Craig, spin it as you like but as the reasonably close relatived of someone who lies buried in France, I'm appalled that the PM-elect couldn't make the effort.

Simon: So were members of Helen Clark's family (a grand-uncle, if memory serves), and this son of a 28th (Maori) Batallion veteran…

I would like to acknowledge that on the 11th day of next month, we will be commemorating the 90th anniversary of the Armistice. This is part of our nationhood and we rely heavily on our veterans' community and, in…

I'm not appalled…

I understand the appeal, and although on the surface it seems comparatively fair that someone found…

It woudl have been seemly for the leader of the Nats and PM-to-be to have honoured the people who made the ultimate sacrifice.

And it would be seemly for you to dismount that high horse. Send your bile to the DomPost.

However, an analysis of a DNA sample might ring the cherries with a whole string of other unsolved cases, and the suspect ain't going anywhere.

I'm pretty dubious about "while we've got you in here arrested for X, let's check your DNA and see what other crimes you might have…

Key deserts Armistice gathering for caucus
By KERRY WILLIAMSON – The Dominion Post | Wednesday, 12 November 2008

On the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, John Key was tucked away in meetings.

The…

Why not just take the sample after conviction?

Well, I can see the logic in it, and I'm comfortable with it.

If the police arrest a suspect in, for example, a rape case, and in that specific instance they don't have a strong enough case to lay charges, then the…

If the police need a Guthrie card to identify anyone except a victim, they apply to a District Court Judge for a warrant. In accepting a Guthrie Card the police certify it will be used solely for the investigation.

I wonder what that actually means? I wonder how often it's…

Ah – Helen's gone, Judith's gone – is Annette the next sacrificial woman?

Oh dear, another outbreak of Clinton-Palin Syndrome, whose symptoms include opportunistic and fatuous cries of "sexist" and "mysoginist" when faced with uncomfortable scrutiny. It doesn't only insult the intelligence, but it also trivialises the real challenges women…

And they reckon Key'll take Welfare off Collins – please please please...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/vote08/4757899a28477.html

Even I am too young to have ever thought Fonzi was cool. Maybe that's why McCain lost, those Republicans still think "cool" is a…

It's called the heel prick test. We've been storing blood from every newborn dried on a card since the 1970s.

i've heard there is a *very* strong lobby to not use the heel prick for criminal proceedings. wish i could remember where i heard it though.

But it's just a media observation.

Fair enough, as far as it goes — but let me put it this way: You could always depend on Tony Blair on get the presentation slick as a well-buttered pole dancer, but how often was the substance infinitely more troubling? I'm just not…

why not take a sample from every new-born child, just in case?

We already do. It's called the heel prick test. We've been storing blood from every newborn dried on a card since the 1970s. As far as I know there has never been any intention to analyse their DNA…

Since 'cognitive dissonance' seems to be the phrase of the day, I for one find it rather odd that the same people who bleat about the worst excesses of the nanny state are (generally speaking) those who are most comfortable with some of it's more feral manifestations.

you mean such…

DNA evidence would be rather easy to plant, much easier then finger prints and even criminals could easily do the planting (for a variety of reasons).

I'm not sure about the planting bit. Do you have a source?

However, crims in the UK are now well aware of the power…

That's as close to a Police State as I think NZ's come. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Paul: In June this year, I wrote a PAR piece excoriating the Criminal Procedure Bill — which passed with both National and Labour's support for various provisions I found severely rank.…

"There are some people who look at a glass and say it's half-empty. Others say it's half full. And some folks only see something else to throw on the floor and break."

Context is everything. The glass is half full/empty but of what?
If it's whiskey, thank you very much.…

Labour's swift change of guard has raised the stakes

hmmm... are you convinced goff will still be leader come 2011?

traditionally the person appointed shortly after an election loss ends up bumped in time to bring in new blood.

is Annette the next sacrificial woman?

This has nothing to do with the fact that Annette King is a woman, and a little to do with the fact that she is now 2iC in the Labour Party. Her 36 year political career shows some very senior appointments but is remarkably…

Context is everything. The glass is half full/empty but of what?
If it's whiskey, thank you very much.…

Oh yes, the other problem with England and Wales is that you can get arrested for, well, just because.

Yes, and we shouldn't forget that the NZ Police have at least their fair share of lying bullshit artists, and power-hungry rule-mad freaks. And that many of even the most minor…

Anything to say about Key actually talking to the Maori Party? I thought that was never, ever going to happen — and not as if it's strictly necessary.

Sensible from where I am, difficult to say your are running a centre-right government with only Act on board. If you have…

RB: Anything to say about Key actually talking to the Maori Party?

Smart move all round, especially given Act's behaviour in the past three days.

But it's just a media observation. I watched the late news coverage, and the physical dynamic was interesting. For Goff's stand-up, the journalists neatly fanned…

But I'm quite happy to know people who actually think due process, the presumption of innocence, some curbs on police powers and all that wet liberal crap is a bloody good thing.

Craig, National propose to introduce legislation enabling the Police to take DNA from people arrested for an imprisonable…

He's a fourth generation brethren, whom would say "praise the lord brother" every time we hit the road and at each completed stage of the journey.

Death cult, keep the peeps focussed on the possibility of dying at every oportunity then add the fear of ending up in the hot…

Then as Police Minister blamed the moon on an increase in violent crime (during summer when naturally there are fewer moonlight hours), plus the "Guerillas" in the misty Uruweras saga,.....

Ah – Helen's gone, Judith's gone – is Annette the next sacrificial woman? Most of us – and nearly all…

No.

O well that's good then. So your homework must evidently differ from mine.

verbwangle's example to follow:

But if anything kills him, it will start with little frames like that.

RB: Anything to say about Key actually talking to the Maori Party? I thought that was never, ever going to happen — and not as if it's strictly necessary. There are some people who look at a…

Or are you one of the unconditional, accepting masses?

No.

Now that I totally believe in and so do you unless it is Clark, or Peters, or Veitch.

Back the fuck up there, Ian. If you want to go elsewhere on this site, I've bent over backwards until I could kiss my own arsehole to say Veitch is entitled to…

Goff & King striding purposefully and confidently towards the camera.

Why do I hear Tina Fey's Sarah Palin offering to do some "fancy pageant walking"?

Actually I am not sure what you can easily identify from many MP's on a local plane.

So a constituency MP vote might as well be a Party vote then??

Anyway... I don't care.. The Groke has Spoke, and sHe is my friend. :o)

I kind of assumed that she'd, you know, matured, but then she came up with the moon thing.

Thanks, Joe. I will wander now to Lyall Bay beach, with a custard pie and a large bottle of alcohol, to look upon the moon's tortured face, and meditate on that.

Damn,…

He's a fourth generation brethren, whom would say "praise the lord brother" every time we hit the road and at each completed stage of the journey.

Hopefully he's not into praying to the Lord to find him a parking spot. That's being a real god-botherer.

Re. Annette King – in…

Take it away, John Hinderaker from former Time magazine blog of the year, Powerline:

Obama thinks he is a good talker, but he is often undisciplined when he speaks.…

Another question: can someone explain to me what exactly Annette King did or didn't do that causes so many people to unquestioningly accept and support her so much?

Would it not be possible for you to do your own homework on that one Eleanor? She hasn't exactly been in hiding…

2 seconds each.

Goff & King striding purposefully and confidently towards the camera.
Key and group milling loosely. Key's face looking uncertain.

Funny how an image can stick after such a brief moment.

You know, I have been impressed and surprised by Key's campaign — I actually think the party owes…

But FFS; is it now a requirement in this MMP age for leaders to be as bland and sensible as possible?

I'm almost missing Winston already

I know a couple of exclusive brethren (excommunicated mind), and they-re both on the wagon . Do I get any commiseration for that?

The utmost. And them as well. Poor b*ggers. Are they managing??

Key's face looking uncertain

Yes, I saw that too and it has stuck in my mind as well. I think it is dawning on him that what he has taken on is not just another promotion at Lehmann Brothers....(oh that's right, couldn't be anyway, they're gone burger)

Would it not be possible for you to do your own homework on that one Eleanor? She hasn't exactly been in hiding for the past nine years.

What an ineffectual and pointless retort. It was a genuine question.

I have done homework, including asking questions of King's own constituents about…

I'm quite happy to know people who actually think due process, the presumption of innocence, some curbs on police powers and all that wet liberal crap is a bloody good thing

You mean the kind of thing that informed HC's actions in relation to WP?

Craig, you know a few libertarians? Poor you. You have all my sympathy :)

Thanks, that and three fifty should buy me a long black. But I'm quite happy to know people who actually think due process, the presumption of innocence, some curbs on police powers and all that wet…

Neither Smith nor Ryall have proven records in the Ministry, nor frankly the Opposition. I think both will struggle in their new portfolios

Taking the partisan blinkers off for a moment, I know a few civil libertarians who doesn't give Goff particularly high marks when he starts courting Laura Norder.…

The line "There are no factions in Labour" is more than a little rich. What of the Union vote?
The totality of front was that of TINA.

And so I suppose that's why I left (or didn't vote for them for the first time ever,…

__The NatLab party today took a bold step into the future by choosing Donny Donut as their new leader. Donut…

Another question: can someone explain to me what exactly Annette King did or didn't do that causes so many people to unquestioningly accept and support her so much?

Would it not be possible for you to do your own homework on that one Eleanor? She hasn't exactly been in hiding…

One question: can someone explain to me what exactly Judith Tizard ddi or didn't do that causes so many people to deride her so much?

Another question: can someone explain to me what exactly Annette King did or didn't do that causes so many people to unquestioningly accept and support…

That they didn't says two things; firstly they can see beyond increasingly irrelevant social arrangements and secondly that Goff is the best person for the job.

Indeed, I also like the idea that Act will be even more isolated now, Key will be wary of Goff coming across as sensible…

Thirdly that the Labour discipline practised now for years, still stands. Thanks Helen.

Perhaps this is the National way Craig, but I doubt Labour would even consider such behaviour ;)

I'd like to think Labour will not ever repeat the mistakes of the mid-90s. The conflagration of the Lange/Palmer/Moore leadership might've burned a little too long, but it burned completely out. I see…

I've never found Judith to be arrogant myself.

Woman arrogant, Man masterful.

. . . in the psychology books, "Families and How to Survive them" and "Life and How to Survive It" written by John Cleese and Robin Skinner, there's something explaining why people at the political extremes are prone to projecting their fears on others, and to splintering into…

No spring chickens, I'm sure (though is 43 that old?), but there surely has to be a difference between those who first saw Parliamentary action under Bolger (Nick Smith, Tony Ryall), and those who first saw it under Muldoon (Goff).

Graeme, to be honest I think comparing Smith and Ryall…

Key might not be nervous, he should be.

Well, I wouldn't be too nervous about the Annette King whose previously safe pair of hands in the shit portfolio of death (Death) were considerably less sure in Police – to my surprise. And sorry, Goff was probably as good as it…

After the 2002 election – at which National had fallen to less than 21% of the vote – the only party that could possibly have been fighting an unloseable election in 2005 was Labour.

Only if you ignore the opening of the Orewa vein in early 2004 ... Labour __came…

I will say I'm a fan of what I've seen of the man...

Indeed – anyone who's thinking of putting Tony Ryall, the Smiths Lockwood and Nick, Murray McCully and Maurice Williamson on his front bench can't be too snippy about "renewal"

With the corollary that Labour might want to STFU with the taunts about the old faces of the 90's. And just…

If you pick a new and exciting candidate who actually has no substance and no political nous you might manage to lose an unloseable election... anyone remember 2005?

Labour didn't pick a new and exciting candidate in 2005.

After the 2002 election – at which National had fallen to less…

This doesn't change the fact that, of course, Key's whole premise is bollocks. You pick your best leadership candidate, not a fresh face for the sake of it. If you pick a new and…

John Key's comment that the elevation of Goff is hardly a sign of renewal
...
Unless Key appoints some of his bright new things to cabinet then his own team will smell about as fresh the proverbial week old snapper.

Indeed – anyone who's thinking of putting Tony Ryall, the…

they are best placed to ruthlessly scrutinise Key

and what Dave P just said.

The Goff/King leadership seems a sensible move – it will let the experienced Labour front-bench get some hits on the party who haven't experienced what it's like to be in Govt for nine years and with…

Tauranga Real Estate Agent?

Where'd you get that nugget?

I had my doubts about that after I had an argument with him on Kiwiblog where he endlessly defended the very un-libertarian government of Singapore.

He seems top have fallen out with the Libz nowadays too, either that, or they're publicly distancing themselves from him for the sake of appearance.…

John Key's comment that the elevation of Goff is hardly a sign of renewal

Unless Key appoints some of his bright new things to cabinet then his own team will smell about as fresh the proverbial week old snapper.

Indeed – anyone who's thinking of putting Tony Ryall, the Smiths…

Redbaiter is a Libertarianz candidate?

Supposedly – local govt elections though. Provincial town.

I had my doubts about that after I had an argument with him on Kiwiblog where he endlessly defended the very un-libertarian government of Singapore.

But perhaps that's just that cognitive dissonance Slarty was talking about ...

Redbaiter is a Libertarianz candidate?

Supposedly – local govt elections though. Provincial town.

No one with dreads could be a bad man.

The entire country of Jamaica begs to differ :)

I do think there's something in John Key's comment that the elevation of Goff is hardly a sign of renewal. I also think there's something in the idea that Key really doesn't want to face an Opposition leader as smart and experienced as Goff ...

Goff and King are two…

a profusion of fishy themes

As I recall: ZOMG GILLS!1!1!

Wrong about Barry Otto. Funny movie though.

John Key's comment that the elevation of Goff is hardly a sign of renewal

Unless Key appoints some of his bright new things to cabinet then his own team will smell about as fresh the proverbial week old snapper.

Miranda & Barry Otto? Features a water tower in a crucial scene?

Just so. And a profusion of fishy themes (Barry did always seem a bit like a suave giant grouper).

Love Serenade

Without looking it up – Miranda & Barry Otto? Features a water tower in a crucial scene?

A now rather obscure but different little Australian movie that features the 'magic' of Barry White unleashed upon a small-town generation who'd never heard him before

Love Serenade is one of my favourite movies! It's a perfect combination of sleaze, surreal and perms.

I do think there's something in John Key's comment that the elevation of Goff is hardly a sign of renewal. I also think there's something in the idea that Key really doesn't want to face an Opposition leader as smart and experienced as Goff ...

I am glad with the…

Just how long has it been for ol' Red? I remember him from usenet at least ten or twelve years ago...I wonder if its the same dude.Or like the Dred Pirate Roberts, does the baton get handed on following the ineivetable haemorrhage?

On that, I used to suspect there was…

Redbaiter has joined the Poneke thread ...

People like Russell Brown need to understand that the dialogue has shifted from a benign acceptance of leftism to a passionate rejection of its core principles by a large part of the population and growing resentment at the way in which many socialists…

they don't know a way out.

And it's all our fault. Or the media's, or the gummint.

Goff the new opposition leader

And Cunliffe gets Finance, where he can make his name if he's good enough.

I do think there's something in John Key's comment that the elevation of Goff is hardly a sign of renewal. I also think there's something in the idea that Key really…

People with victim mentalities are rarely particularly happy.

I think that's a large part of it. People like him have spent so long in wingnut victimhood that they don't know a way out.

Given his near 360-degree definition of what constitutes "socialism",

Not to mention his hypocritical enthusiasm in ramming his principles down everyones' throats.

the poor wee poppet is just setting himself up for heartbreak, isn't he?

People with victim mentalities are rarely particularly happy.

This is one that springs to mind

And another

People like Russell Brown need to understand that the dialogue has shifted from a benign acceptance of leftism to a passionate rejection of its core principles by a large part of the population and growing resentment at the way in which many socialists…

The unloseable seat that Richard Prebble lost in 1993, you mean?

That'd be the one. The seat is un-lose-ably left wing. And yet...

I think it's this cognitive dissonance that causes the outbursts: the inability to acknowledge that aspects of your world view don't align. Such internal conflict must be very corrosive, causing little explosions...

Youu hit that nail on the head, Slarty! And so nicely put!

So they are talking about tits on an owl I take it?

No wai!

Is there a word that encompasses homophobia & misogyny?

Kiwiblog

Thats gold!

He really should have his own range of vinegar with so many sour grapes.

WHOO TITTIES

this is someone's forum ID?

lol

So they are talking about tits on an owl I take it?

Probably just as effective as the opinions on the site....

One question: can someone explain to me what exactly Judith Tizard ddi or didn't do that causes so many people to deride her so much?

This is one example that springs to mind.

Another example closer to Russell's heart.

Now Heather Roy.
Oh crap – Wellington Central – that's hard....

Wellington – wind....

Got it!
'Vote Roy's Windy ACT'

Gotta call Rodney about this gem....

"Rodney, yeah it's John here. Listen, I have this great catch phrase for Heather's billboard in Cuba Street".
"What?…

occasional WHOO TITTIES posts

There must be some way for me to incorporate this excellent, humourous phrase into my daily life. But how? How??

Hey! No dissing of Barry White . . .

A now rather obscure but different little Australian movie that features the 'magic' of Barry White unleashed upon a small-town generation who'd never heard him before:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116930/

note: change "Two Ticks and he's in" to "Two Strikes and He's In"

Brilliant!

Now, what to do about the Douglas one.
That's hard – I wonder if Kelly Tarlton's still have any of those paper maché sea monsters stored away....

Is there a word that encompasses homophobia & misogyny?

Kiwiblog.

They may have been something like this:

Draft #24:
Proposed Rodney Hide billboard.
Position: Broadway, Newmarket, opposite 277.
Size: 6m x 3m.
Headline:
"YOU CAN DANCE WITH A STAR.
OR YOU CAN VOTE FOR…

Anyway, the wingnuts have long hated Tizard. Is there a word that encompasses homophobia & misogyny?

Not that I have a clue as to her sexuality.

He, himself, on his own website confesses: [[http://www.paddedsell.co.nz/Advertising.htm |"In 2005 I created the billboards and TV ads that helped the…

Hayes, on the other hand, was more adventurous.

Even if he got sucked in by the Scientologists at the end.

She lost an un-lose-able seat to a nobody candidate, despite being a senior MP and government minister.

The unloseable seat that Richard Prebble lost in 1993, you mean?

And, er, "senior MP"? Outside cabinet?

She was one of five ministers or associates to lose electorates on a wretched night for…

The tory boys can't deal with women at the best of times, but one with a savage wit really gets up their noses. Besides, she was a proxy target for the PM.

Tory boys? I'd start with Mike Moore. He doesn't seem to have gotten over her role the 93…

I understand she did a lot behind the scenes but politics is as much about being seen to be doing something as actually doing it and she let herself down/was let down there.

But can you list the good works of every other Auckland MP? Danyl's slagging her off this…

And yes, Isaac Hayes was a glorious genius, but Barry also arranged, composed and produced as well as singing, and…

Also, Helen never actually put her in cabinet which is not a supportive move

I believe that in a Labour government the caucus votes on the 'cabinet' and then the PM hands out portfolios; therefore that is the caucus's decision, not Helen's

While I prefer a medley of Al Green, Marvin Gaye and Barry White myself.

Barry White? Songs of the Humpback Whale. Or am I confusing him with Demis Roussos?

One question: can someone explain to me what exactly Judith Tizard ddi or didn't do that causes so many people to deride her so much?

She lost an un-lose-able seat to a nobody candidate, despite being a senior MP and government minister.

Barry White

Massively overrated.

Try Isaac Hayes.

I think Judith's recent falling into bed with big music

While I prefer a medley of Al Green, Marvin Gaye and Barry White myself.

Incidentally, Craig R, what are your thoughts on the Hoover Institute's Paul Brady, who thinks that the Republicans should imitate the Cameron UK Tories and eschew sock con politics from this point on?

Brady is right. Sorry, it just strikes me as so blindingly obvious that you can't win with…

I understand she did a lot behind the scenes but politics is as much about being seen to…

Here's my copy.

Last night we witnessed a truly historic moment with the election of Barack…

The Kiwi Party should find solace in that their single issue is about as popular as legalising cannabis.

Hmm. Maybe the ALCP could start their campaign for the next election by trying to get a referendum on that?

One question: can someone explain to me what exactly Judith Tizard ddi or didn't do that causes so many people to deride her so much?

Is she just a convenient target?

To be honest, I think she is. As far as I know, her electorate office has been as busy…

I think Judith's recent falling into bed with big music leaving ISPs in a legally dubious position pissed a lot of people off a lot

I don't get you – can you please not use John Key language and I may be able to understand?

The guy has seemingly worked on every party's election campaign at some point then had a 'falling out'

I don't know Mr Ansell myself, can't comment on him (other than the discussion on Poneke seems extraordinary vitriolic).

However, in the psychology books, "Families and How to Survive them" and "Life…

People are looking again at the role of ace neocon Randy Schneumann, who was for a time this year in the pay of both the Georgian leader Mikheil Saakashvili and the McCain campaign, where he was a senior foreign policy adviser.

But we're all still agreed that 9/11 was just…

But Citizens & Ratepayers councillor Toni Millar said Mr Lotu-Iiga was not the first politician to mix national and local body commitments.

She said he was an "incredibly level-headed" councillor with "a massive propensity for hard work".

"I just feel that he will cope. Sam does not take on more than…

Peseta Sam Lotu'Liga

I take it, that for the next 3 (or more!) years, Peseta Sam Lotu'Liga will be to Peseta Sam Lotu'Iiga what John Keys is to John Key and Helen Clarke was to Helen Clark.

While his National billboards from 2005 might have been 'clever' to some people they looked bloody horrible.

Eye of the beholder and all. We can now put aside the acrimony and recognise Mr. Ansell's masterful media manipulation for what it really was – a long and hitherto thankless mission,…

While his…