Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: An unacceptable failure of care

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 15:23:11 +1300

At the time of the first publicity ,Hale Junior was given much publicity with interviews from the media and comments from him and his Mother stepped in at some stage. Hales junior even said the Police weren't his problem, just the media 'making him the most"hated"Roastbuster in NZ.
You may think…

Alfie

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 14:32:05 +1300

He definitely knows now, but whether he knew while the investigation was underway is not at all a given.
You'd have to surmise that his mates in the force would be a bit slack if they hadn't had a quiet word with him very early in the investigation.

Bart: On…

Matthew Poole

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:07:58 +1300

interview Hales and see what he said to his son about this criminal behaviour

You're assuming he knew. It's a matter of record that none of the boys or their parents were spoken to by the investigators. It's likely he knew, but far from certain. He definitely knows now, but…

linger

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:02:12 +1300

So … morally he’s not a complete whore?

(and just to be clear, this speaks well of the latter profession)

Neil Graham

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:57:40 +1300

He is their Union boss, his job is to look after the cops, like it or not.

I would say you're right there but he hasn't always supported the officer in the spotlight.

He once went as far as to say, "Instinctively police officers know this is not right."

Of…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:55:38 +1300

He is their Union boss, his job is to look after the cops

Actually as union boss his job is to look after ALL cops.

So when a small group F*s up as badly as this group has, his job is to protect the good name of the rest by…

Steve Barnes

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:45:14 +1300

I get that Greg O'Conner's job is to go to bat for the police but there is a point where you have to look seriously at the people you are standing behind and say "not good enough".

He is their Union boss, his job is to look after the cops,…

Carol Stewart

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:24:28 +1300

Hoping it's not too OT to point y'all to Monica Lewinsky's Ted talk on how the internet enables instant, global, and unerasable shaming. It's really worth watching.

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:28:00 +1300

get that Greg O’Conner’s job is to go to bat for the police but there is a point where you have to look seriously at the people you are standing behind and say “not good enough”.

How about he say "They should be fired!"
The investigators that had done specific…

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:54:55 +1300

Asset Manages the National Party .Northland Treasurer apparently, and his beauty place with that beauty face .Saw him with mini me Foster Bell the other day Interestingly he doesn't know our other ex MP well at all, sort of ,a little bit maybe but no don't really know him around…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:46:39 +1300

“You’ve got a group of detectives overworked and having to prioritise their files every day, ....”

On what planet does the alleged gang rape of a child not get priority?

I get that Greg O'Conner's job is to go to bat for the police but there is a point where…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:43:35 +1300

Even though that could have protected more children and young women from being sexually assaulted.

Personally I think this a very real part of the problem.

It seems that the Police concerned have displayed an attitude that the girls didn't need to be protected from sex.

That somehow the boys…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 08:49:23 +1300

I understand Osborne is an 'Asset Manager' up north, if he sticks with National there won't be much for him to do, judging by their take on 'assets' – it'll be back to weightlifting... and the family beauty business

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 08:41:24 +1300

Yes.
O'Connor must be like one of the 3500 "managers" the Northland area has gained in the Dec 2014 quarter. "Managers that are looking after the 2000 "sales people", all in full time employment, says Joyce. That or we have a new Mall somewhere I haven't seen. It's Bollocks fer…

linger

Mon, 23 Mar 2015 00:26:50 +1300

apologist for incompetence [… viz. …], an Arsehole
Just to clarify: these are equated only in the sense that his primary function is to deliver bullshit?

Lilith __

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 23:06:53 +1300

Public shaming and humiliation of victims via social media is part of this awful sequence of events.
Hoping it's not too OT to point y'all to Monica Lewinsky's Ted talk on how the internet enables instant, global, and unerasable shaming. It's really worth watching.

andin

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 21:13:57 +1300

Police Association president Greg O'Connor
He's getting paid to be an apologist for incompetence or in plainer language,
an Arsehole.

Russell Brown

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 21:10:21 +1300

Would it have been hard or a shoo-in to get a warrant to seize the phones and computers of the youths accused? Because it seems so obvious, it’s hard to comprehend that it wouldn’t have happened.

I have thought this for a long time.

Rob Stowell

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 20:39:06 +1300

let alone seek a warrant.
Would it have been hard or a shoo-in to get a warrant to seize the phones and computers of the youths accused? Because it seems so obvious, it's hard to comprehend that it wouldn't have happened.

Joe Wylie

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 20:37:16 +1300

Or Nicky Hager, who had his house turned over by a team of cops as a witness.

So a complaint from Cameron Slater was important enough to justify an over-the-top search and seizure on a prominent investigative journalist
The kind of "other work" that underresourced police are called away to…

Russell Brown

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:51:41 +1300

Amen. Lest we forget the persecution of the alleged Christchurch light bulb looter, whose name I won’t invoke out of respect for his presumed desire for privacy.

Arthur Alan Thomas, David Bain, Teina Pora
victims of the police

Or Nicky Hager, who had his house turned over by a team…

BenWilson

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:35:02 +1300

That's a very good summation by MacLennan.

Sacha

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 14:47:11 +1300

Lawyer Catriona MacLennan is concerned amongst several things that the previous Operation Clover review repeated some of the same deficient reasoning about laying charges.

Sue

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 14:21:15 +1300

They jump in hobnail boots and all when its not required

Amen. Lest we forget the persecution of the alleged Christchurch light bulb looter, whose name I won’t invoke out of respect for his presumed desire for privacy.

Arthur Alan Thomas, David Bain, Teina Pora
victims of the police

Rich of Observationz

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:50:44 +1300

Well, yes, I was referring to the comments. Fairly widespread liability for libel predates the internet, newspaper sellers are, I think, jointly responsible for any libels in the papers they sell (at least in the UK, NZ might have removed this).

But also, I suspect (and hope) a libel case…

BenWilson

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:36:08 +1300

Police corruption is a big allegation to make.

It certainly is. But observing that there seems to be no process by which a potential criminal investigation is given to people who are guaranteed to be impartial, rather than people whose partiality is easily questionable is not an observation of corruption,…

Joe Wylie

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 09:54:44 +1300

They jump in hobnail boots and all when its not required

Amen. Lest we forget the persecution of the alleged Christchurch light bulb looter, whose name I won't invoke out of respect for his presumed desire for privacy.

Sofie Bribiesca

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 09:43:00 +1300

Even tho they may be nice folks and all, professionally they just cant be trusted to get anything right, apart from issue traffic tickets.

They are pretty good at hovering over houses dangling buckets of blue poison too.

andin

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 09:35:21 +1300

Police culture and competence
On a general point find this case shocking for the girl and their families. And on police culture I don't know how deep competence checks go and how and if they are done.

But locally,the police cant be trusted to get anything right. They jump in…

Craig Ranapia

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 08:24:55 +1300

Where can I get a hard copy of this report so I can throw it at the head of the next person who says "Why didn't she go to the Police?"

Chris Waugh

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 08:14:23 +1300

And cases like this don't help inspire confidence.

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 08:12:54 +1300

Police culture and competence...
Top cop 'forgets' crime files in cupboard!!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11421129

Yet Rodney Hide weighs in on on how dirty police cars are – apparently that really depresses him!!!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11421086

and I see court documents have 'disappeared' from files on the Pike River case
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/67466264/Pike-River-court-file-goes-missing

seems that having systems…

Sofie Bribiesca

Sun, 22 Mar 2015 00:55:26 +1300

Thank you Lilith, and while you're at it, I'll just say

I'm disgusted, but not surprised. I know the process. Sometimes it feels like " FTP!".
IMO jus'sayin' nothing to do with Russell Brown, just me.

Lilith __

Sat, 21 Mar 2015 17:59:47 +1300

Police corruption is a big allegation to make. Perhaps we can agree it looks bad that one of the alleged perpetrators is a cop’s son and leave it at that.

Police culture and competence in the area of rape and child abuse is clearly at fault. It’s hardly the first…

Steve Barnes

Sat, 21 Mar 2015 14:29:20 +1300

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink...
"Strictly off the record but.... Keep it under your military looking hat but....
'cos he's one of us.... Guvner..."
Off the record that was never kept hence the lack of communication leading to the cock-up.

Sacha

Sat, 21 Mar 2015 12:44:23 +1300

They had access to all the communications and paperwork around the case. As you say, that wouldn't show tacit influence.

BenWilson

Sat, 21 Mar 2015 12:25:41 +1300

The bit that sticks out on the report to me is this:
Young men and their families

105. Contrary to their engagement with the young women and their families, the investigating officers’ contact and interaction with the young men and their families was, in all six of the cases investigated…

BenWilson

Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:49:13 +1300

Specifically, they say they found no evidence of any impact. But that is quite literally all they say about it, before concluding that there was thus no impact. It's hard to think what evidence there really could be, since anyone asked would simply deny it, unless it was some really…

Russell Brown

Sat, 21 Mar 2015 10:51:20 +1300

The IPCA says no it wasn’t a factor. I presume they investigated that angle before making such a firm statement.

They hadn't even made the connection in the case of the first two complainants.

Sacha

Sat, 21 Mar 2015 08:55:39 +1300

I would really like to know if there was less of an inquiry because one of the boys' fathers was a policeman

See the statement I quoted above. The IPCA says no it wasn't a factor. I presume they investigated that angle before making such a firm statement.

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 21 Mar 2015 08:32:52 +1300

Boys named sue...?
Please delete my earlier comment if it is in any way a possible legal impediment, but I would really like to know if there was less of an inquiry because one of the boys' fathers was a policeman, that he might have been at the same station…

Russell Brown

Sat, 21 Mar 2015 00:27:44 +1300

I’m sure the Edge will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think there is already case law on this (see http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/online-defamation-nz-google-case-supports-aust-not-uk-conclusions-ck-132351) which definitely points at the owner of the house.

Yes. And the fact the terribly defamatory things get said in the comments of certain other blogs every day…

nzlemming

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 22:36:19 +1300

Let’s say it’s effectively a ‘conversation’ and someone raises something libellous (and incorrect – I think truth is always a defence?)

Essentially, it has to be incorrect to be libellous – truth is a defence, yes.

I’d like to think a judge would see the thread/conversation/discussion as a whole, and…

Rob Stowell

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 22:05:06 +1300

Given that it’s your blog, you are the “publisher of record” and therefore liable for any libel raised
I’m wondering how that should work in an online forum.
Let’s say it’s effectively a ‘conversation’ and someone raises something libellous (and incorrect – I think truth is always a defence?)
Others…

Russell Brown

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 19:45:10 +1300

Given that it’s your blog, you are the “publisher of record” and therefore liable for any libel raised (correct me if I’ve misunderstood you, Rich)

Yes, I am. Let me look at that.

Sacha

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 19:14:57 +1300

The findings of the IPCA include this clear statement:

14.6 The fact that the father of one of the young men was a Police officer had no influence on Police’s handling of the investigations.

nzlemming

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 18:39:49 +1300

I wrote that the police “should have had cause to fear [young women and girls] were being systematically sexually assaulted”. I think that’s fair.

You did, and it is. I think what Rich is referring to is the misunderstanding that Beriah Hales's father was one of the members of the…

Russell Brown

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 17:41:34 +1300

I wrote that the police “should have had cause to fear [young women and girls] were being systematically sexually assaulted”. I think that’s fair. Regardless of what happened in each case, on the basis of what they knew, they should have had cause to fear that.

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 16:53:15 +1300

All I can say is that it's a good job the Harmful Digital Communications Bill hasn't gone through yet, or Russell might be finding himself sanctioned.

(Hales (father or son) could still sue for libel, but the expense and hazard of that makes it less likely).

Michael Homer

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 16:50:57 +1300

It's almost verbatim the same article they had a few weeks ago (including that detail). I wondered whether they'd said more than they intended at the time, but seemingly not.

Bart Janssen

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 16:13:58 +1300

However I suspect Ian was meaning any of the investigating officers and as far as we know Hales’ father had nothing to do with the investigation.

My understanding was the father worked out of the same station. So would have had considerable contact with the investigating officers.

I could be…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 16:07:17 +1300

Do we know if any of these police have children themselves?

Why yes we do ,one Police Officer has a boy. His name is Beraiah Hales. He is one of the twits involved.

Unless I missed something I think you're conflating two separate things. Yes, the father of Hales is…

Danielle

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 15:29:21 +1300

after the first report came out and some people were all, "See, the police did everything they could, this is just how these things go." No. They could not have failed more spectacularly than "a specialist child protection unit didn't understand the law around child sexual abuse".

Our endless willingness,…

Sacha

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 15:14:23 +1300

There is more than one case. And suppression of identity is still under appeal in both, though the charges are now public.

Alfie

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 15:05:53 +1300

The charges against that same "Prominent New Zealander" have finally been revealed.
The man denies 12 charges of indecent assault against two people including two representative charges.
I believe I'm correct in saying that until now, only "assault" has been mentioned in the media.
The charges, which include allegations of touching…

Steve Barnes

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 14:47:32 +1300

But our Minister of Police should have given the same damn speech! It is his job dammit.

I disagree, he should have said “Mea Culpa, I resign” and left it as that.
Every word he spoke sounded like an attempt at justification, there were lots of “But"s after every admission…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 14:16:25 +1300

Also I'd like to add that for about the 4th time through this saga I am sitting at my desk with tears in my eyes.

Bart Janssen

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 14:07:28 +1300

Much as I love the speech Jacinda gave and admire how well she gave it, I have a problem, and that is her speech should have been given by Michael Woodhouse.

Her speech was fantastic. It should be on Campbell Live in its entirely.

But our Minister of Police should…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 13:57:19 +1300

Great speech from Jacinda.

Such a pity most of our elected representatives could not make the effort to be there to hear it, but I guess being out of the room saves them from sticking their fingers in the ears and shouting "lalalalala"

Emma Hart

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:51:28 +1300

I feel I should have many profound things to say about this, especially after the first report came out and some people were all, "See, the police did everything they could, this is just how these things go." No. They could not have failed more spectacularly than "a specialist child…

Jeremy Andrew

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:43:45 +1300

It does make one wonder how it might have shaken out if it was a policeman's daughter involved, rather than a son... I'm sure it might have taken a higher priority.

Joe Wylie

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:33:02 +1300

Are we allowed to ask if the policeman beats his wife?
Or what she thinks of it all?

When the ultra-prurient Chch Press hounds the "sex romp duo" to the point where “It’s not known whether the wife is standing by the man”, it seems fair enough to wonder why…

Greg Wood

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 11:40:12 +1300

I had to pull over while driving home last night, listening to this story on RNZ. I was swearing and crying. What can I do?

Alfie

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:40:03 +1300

The decision not to prosecute must have been difficult for the officers involved. Seven complainants, up to 110 victims, stupification and sexual assault of minors followed by online bullying and shaming of the victims.

Nothing to see here folks... moving right along.

Sofie Bribiesca

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:35:19 +1300

Do we know if any of these police have children themselves?

Why yes we do ,one Police Officer has a boy. His name is Beraiah Hales. He is one of the twits involved.

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:01:04 +1300

Rozzer beef…
Danyl also agrees they need to be sacked.
Sounds like these ‘old cops’ didn’t think this child protection squad supplied the ‘better work stories’ they wanted – but what message does that send the ‘new cops’ ?
https://www.newcops.co.nz/about-the-job/better-work-stories

Do we know if any of these police have children…

Sacha

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:17:44 +1300

I didn't realise these incompetent clowns were part of a dedicated Child Protection Team until yesterday. Danyl also agrees they need to be sacked.

SteveH

Fri, 20 Mar 2015 01:35:58 +1300

Someone must surely be resigning over this, right?

Sue

Thu, 19 Mar 2015 23:08:45 +1300

So Bad, that the law exists to protect people but the police don't know it or choose not to enforce it.
Even Worse the only consequences for police officers involved is that report will be included in their annual review,

All today did was illustrate why victims of assault choose…

Steve Curtis

Thu, 19 Mar 2015 22:28:32 +1300

The Judge even calls out the police over a previous 2010 enquiry into more general child abuse

“120. It is disturbing that several themes identified as a result of the Authority’s child abuse inquiry(such as deficiencies in investigative practices, file recording, collaboration with CYF, and case supervision) have, again, been…

Deborah

Thu, 19 Mar 2015 21:06:23 +1300

Great speech from Jacinda. Measured and insightful and angry, all at once.

Russell Brown

Thu, 19 Mar 2015 18:21:33 +1300

Catriona Maclennansays that on her reading of of paras 80-90, the police didn't understand the law around consent, alcohol and sexual conduct with a person under 16.

She also observes that the police decision not to lay charges was reviewed by the Auckland Crown Solicitor, and wonder what that says…

Public Address

Thu, 19 Mar 2015 18:21:33 +1300

Discussion from blog post.