Hard News: About Arie
646 Responses
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I hate to think what they'd make of armed Aussie cops on NZ streets.
Particularly when I remember one incident from when I lived in Melbourne of a guy who was shot by a policeman for allegedly coming at the cop with a screwdriver. In the post-mortem he was found to have 11 separate bullet holes in him. Since the police carried six-shot Magnums, the copper in question must have unloaded all of his bullets into the victim, then reloaded, and fired a further 5 shots. There was no investigation.
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Che Tibby, in reply to
There was no investigation.
or the time a melbourne guy was shot resisting arrest.
questions were raised about his being handcuffed, kneeling, and head-down at the time.
these questions were of course dismissed.
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
I expect the police to find that solid evidence. It is, to put it bluntly, their fucking job.
Suspect is with officers A, witnesses testify he didn't appear bruised going in, he was bruised comnig out. That's not a difficult case to make. If suspects are officers A and B, and they cover each other's arse, it becomes marginally more difficult - but surely there are disciplinary procedures that would allow to censure both officers in such a scenario.
I would also expect that this investigation would be carried out regardless of the victim's desire to resolve the situation with a minimum of fuss. It's not about Arie's wishes or his family's, it's about protecting the public from abuse.
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3410,
Don't forget that all Aussie cops in Chch. are teamed with locals.
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Andre Alessi, in reply to
Would that make it a diplomatic incident, then?
Given that there is an eye witness involved (i.e. the alleged victim) and photographic evidence of what look like injuries from a beating, I don't think that this case will hinge on cops dobbing each other in.
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Sacha, in reply to
photographic evidence of what look like injuries from a beating
or falling hard against a solid object, to be fair
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Don’t forget that all Aussie cops in Chch. are teamed with locals.
That doesn't necessarily mean the local was complicit with the beating, though. The presence of a local cop may have saved him from a worse one. E.g. o'seas cop throws a couple of punches, local cop says "that's not how we do it over here mate". But it could well be a hard one to get witnesses for on the record.
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Local Asperger advocates have been in touch with the Minister of Police about her reported comments, and she apparently denies saying them. This arrest and beating of an autistic man has also been noted internationally.
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Thomas Johnson, in reply to
Brian -
[DPF: The Police have obviously been reprimanded for their oversight. TV3 tonight showed another looter in court, and he looked like he had fallen down at least four sets of steps]
Interesting that this comment has now been deleted by Farrar
Laws is a complete waste of radio broadcast energy. Presumably he makes money for Live. Perhaps some pressure on their advertisers is in order?
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
That doesn't necessarily mean the local was complicit with the beating, though.
No, it doesn't. Although the wording of this news item sent alarm bells ringing in my head last week.
"The New Zealand officers spoke to the man and introduced him to their Australian counterparts." You've got to wonder if the introduction included tea and biscuits.
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Andre Alessi, in reply to
ou’ve got to wonder if the introduction included tea and biscuits.
They're public servants, so it was probably all they could afford.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
I expect the police to find that solid evidence. It is, to put it bluntly, their fucking job.
You mean like the solid evidence they found implicating Arthur Allan Thomas?
Seriously, listen to yourself. You are unwilling to entertain the slightest possibility that an investigation could, quite legitimately (on the part of the investigators), be unable to reach a conclusion that supports prosecution. You are demanding that the police do anything necessary to achieve a prosecution.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Local Asperger advocates have been in touch with the Minister of Police about her reported comments, and she apparently denies saying them.
So I gather. The Minister seems to be freaking out a bit.
Your move, NZ Herald.
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On the one hand, we need our cops to be compassionate and human. We need them to be calm, sensible, and understanding.
On the other hand, they’re frequently tasked with coping with the type of situation (and/or people) that no compassionate, calm, sensible human being is ever fully equipped to deal with.
They could go from being the soft-hearted friendly individual returning a lost infant to relieved parents one minute, to being the potential victim of a no-holds-barred assault by a machete swinging madman the next.
Or from the warm environs of a loving home one minute, to attending an horrific motor accident within minutes of arriving at “work”.
I’m not saying that assaulting a suspect or an offender is ever justified, but how do we train/recruit the right people to cope with so many variables and extremes? -
izogi, in reply to
indeed. these men are HEROES!! heroes i say!!1!
According to some of the crap I saw on Channel 7 during the week or two afterwards, Australians were practically the only authorities in Christchurch --- certainly the only ones doing anything useful --- and they were all heroes!
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
Given that there is an eye witness involved (i.e. the alleged victim) and photographic evidence of what look like injuries from a beating, I don’t think that this case will hinge on cops dobbing each other in.
In the absence of an independent witness, the victim's statement and the evidence of injuries may not be enough. If the cop says "The arrest could only be effected with use of force", that's suddenly a very weak prosecution. It doesn't even have to be full-on resisting, it could just be a suggestion that Arie ran and had to be tackled. Whether or not it's true is irrelevant, the officer just has to assert it and suddenly it's the classic "he said/he said" that courts hate and which almost invariably goes in the officer's favour.
Challenging it would require Arie's team to engage a psychologist who could be qualified as an expert on ASD and then assert to the court's satisfaction that an Aspie would defer to an authority figure such as a police officer without question. -
Russell Brown, in reply to
Seriously, listen to yourself. You are unwilling to entertain the slightest possibility that an investigation could, quite legitimately (on the part of the investigators), be unable to reach a conclusion that supports prosecution. You are demanding that the police do anything necessary to achieve a prosecution.
I would be happy to see meaningful restorative justice.
I suspect it would be very good for Arie if he was to hear – at the expense of whatever government – a sincere apology from those who had custody of him, and for them to hear just how awful he was made to feel. That, and a promise that what happened here won’t happen again, backed up with a commitment to training.
And, naturally, substantial media coverage.
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Gareth Ward, in reply to
I suspect it would be very good for Arie if he was to hear – at the expense of whatever government – a sincere apology from those who had custody of him, and for them to hear just how awful he was made to feel. That, and a promise that what happened here won’t happen again, backed up with a commitment to training.
And, naturally, substantial media coverage.
And, I fear, porcine aviation.
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izogi, in reply to
I suspect it would be very good for Arie if he was to hear – at the expense of whatever government – a sincere apology from those who had custody of him, and for them to hear just how awful he was made to feel. [--snip--] And, naturally, substantial media coverage.
Russell, I'd like to see justice clearly and visibly done here wherever it lies and you may be right, but do you think this would out-weigh (for Arie) whatever effect there could be from prolonged dragging of this issue through the likes of Laws and every other prat who'd happily burn all looters at the stake after a prolonged incarceration "with a cellmate" without considering context? I doubt most of those people will be swayed by revelations of a beating by police (pathetically many would cheer it) or a point that he has aspergers, and I'd have thought it could just drag things out.
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Idiot Savant, in reply to
You mean like the solid evidence they found implicating Arthur Allan Thomas?
No. Like the evidence other people have talked about being potentially available in a case like this. This is not a locked room murder mystery we're talking about here. For a start, there's at least one witness - the victim.
The police investigate crimes. Its their job. Any failure to resolve a crime, to identify who is responsible and bring a case against them is, by definition, a failure on their part. And they think this too - that's why they use resolution rates as their basic metric of success.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
For a start, there’s at least one witness – the victim.
The police investigate crimes. Its their job. Any failure to resolve a crime, to identify who is responsible and bring a case against them is, by definition, a failure on their part. And they think this too – that’s why they use resolution rates as their basic metric of success.
Yes, and victims' statements are always reliable, incontrovertible, and sound bases for a prosecution. Right?
How's that 100% success rate coming along for them?
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Very very late to the party. Australia has precedent for waiving immunity (not that I know that there is any for the Aussies sworn in as NZ cops.) A few years ago, they did so in the case of a diplomat's partner who stabbed someone in a Wellington bar IIRC. Case went to trial, conviction, and imprisonment.
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Steve Parks, in reply to
Any failure to resolve a crime, to identify who is responsible and bring a case against them is, by definition, a failure on their part.
Any failure to resolve a crime? Really? That's a bit naive.
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Steve Parks, in reply to
I would be happy to see meaningful restorative justice.
Yes, and Sacha said so too earlier. Would love to see it happen - not holding breath.
Edit: to sound a bit less cynical, I'll add I'm increasingly in favour of 'thinking outside the square' with regard to justice issues - especially if it involves empowering the victim as well as being more constructive overall.
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I wonder whether those using the term Aspie are the very same I regularly hear in my local McDs attempting to order hambies and cheesebies, respect where due of course.
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