Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: A GCSB Roundup

Stephen R

Mon, 29 Jul 2013 08:54:50 +1200

Went to the march in Wellington on Saturday. I would have said there was about 2000 people, but stuff reported "500", though I don't know where they got that number from.

Only some of the speeches made me cringe. Russel Norman impressed me as a public speaker. Then, to top…

Kumara Republic

Sun, 28 Jul 2013 16:24:22 +1200

No surprises here...
* US spy agencies eavesdrop on Kiwi
* Defence rates investigative journalists as threat

And with any luck my GCSB spoof logo will be available on Cafepress next week.

Greg Dawson

Thu, 25 Jul 2013 12:11:57 +1200

I really like the juxtaposition of the kiwi 1984 and the orwellian.

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 25 Jul 2013 10:57:59 +1200

Rise Up! Take to the streets!
Press Release:
Protesting the GCSB + TICS Bills on the 27th July Nationwide

On the 27th of July, 2013 there will be a nation wide protest taking place in regards to the GCSB and TICS bills. All those taking part feel these bills are…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 24 Jul 2013 13:21:58 +1200

Pine Gap, typical of those secret squirrel Aussies. At least we are open and honest about ours down in Spy Valley, it even has a winery named after it.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:45:37 +1200

Ohariu gonna live with yourself...
Dunne just couldn’t resist selling out...
The Honourable, yeah Right, Peter Dunne-us-down...
...and Key will claim his dodgy 'nation's-mandate' again, one vote over the line, sigh...
There'll be no getting that genie back in the bottle...

Ears rock?
The Age had [[http://www.theage.com.au/it-pro/security-it/australian-outback-station-at-forefront-of-us-spying-arsenal-20130720-hv10h.html|a good article on…

Matthew Poole

Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:08:58 +1200

So Dunne just couldn't resist selling out. Utterly worthless. Not surprising, but no less infuriating. His response to Key should've been "I'll vote with the majority, but I will not be the majority."

Sofie Bribiesca

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 14:54:06 +1200

There has been mention in comments on Audrey Young's article today that there is a protest in Aotea Square and other centres throughout NZ on July 27th (next Saturday) for anyone interested. They do that # thing

#StopTheGCSBbill

Steve Barnes

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 10:08:49 +1200

Three fatalities is $12m using NZTA’s model for determining the value of life

Strange, that is almost the same as 12 lifetimes wages for the average worker. Do you think we are being ripped off?

Sacha...
too much time on your hands, sir
Funny you should say that, have a…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:22:40 +1200

I cannot site the article but I read the other day that a total of 3 people were killed last year buy “Red Light Runners”. Tragic as that may be I doubt the “Millions of Dollars” tag.

Three fatalities is $12m using NZTA's model for determining the value of life…

Sacha

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:22:00 +1200

too much time on your hands, sir

Matthew Poole

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:20:21 +1200

Toby Manhire sums it up beautifully. "GCSB urine furores" indeed.

Steve Barnes

Fri, 19 Jul 2013 12:18:49 +1200

Unlike a notional Communist threat, however, people who run red lights are unarguably responsible for deaths, injuries, and many millions of dollars in cost to society.

I cannot site the article but I read the other day that a total of 3 people were killed last year buy "Red Light…

Sacha

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 20:25:52 +1200

kind of handy if you say what it is.

Sofie Bribiesca

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 19:22:39 +1200

I put this on t'other thread but felt it could pop over here too

"chris"

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 18:27:58 +1200

Egalitarianism suffers when the red carpet industry is booming.

Matthew Poole

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:04:36 +1200

These days Its not “Reds under the bed” its “Redlight runners” and the cameras that trap them.

Unlike a notional Communist threat, however, people who run red lights are unarguably responsible for deaths, injuries, and many millions of dollars in cost to society.

Steve Barnes

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:48:26 +1200

I found the picture while looking at this guy
The one that the Nice Nick Smith, in his Green shirt and tie, tells us is behind the Hole in Hobiton
If you know how Google+ works this may make you think you smell a rat in that…

Steve Barnes

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:33:21 +1200

General Key.
This picture, believe it or not comes from JK’s Google+ page, its the header image…

Martin Niemöller said, for those of the “If you’ve done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide” brigade…

First they came for the communists,
and I didn’t speak out…

Brent Jackson

Tue, 16 Jul 2013 00:09:38 +1200

... and each week someone gets kicked out, but you can never find out why.

Sacha

Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:47:54 +1200

with txt voting – just send to any number and they'll intercept it

Kumara Republic

Mon, 15 Jul 2013 20:46:39 +1200

Never been a fan of reality TV, but here's the ideal pitch: The G.C. + Big Brother = The GCSB.

Ross Mason

Sun, 14 Jul 2013 17:05:04 +1200

Does anyone know if Pacific Fibre found that certain "security issues" may have been a factor in their pulling out?

David Hood

Sun, 14 Jul 2013 09:44:49 +1200

And now it's Telstra Australia routing data for U.S. intelligence agencies

"chris"

Fri, 12 Jul 2013 13:29:22 +1200

Deference Area

Ha! I love the star spangled eyeball Ian.

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 12 Jul 2013 11:06:51 +1200

This should be Tshirt and greeting cards I.D.
feel free to share this one I prepared earlier
– well it has an ear in it!
:- )

"chris"

Wed, 10 Jul 2013 13:29:30 +1200

“Tempora is the first 'I save everything' approach ('full take') in the intelligence world. It sucks in all data, no matter what it is, and which rights are violated by it. ... Right now, the system is capable of saving three days' worth of traffic, but that will be optimised.…

BenWilson

Wed, 10 Jul 2013 11:00:35 +1200

"super-calculator capable of managing tens of millions of gigaoctets of information".

Love it. Them Frenchies refusing to use foreign words like "computer" and "byte".

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 10 Jul 2013 10:10:26 +1200

ears looking at you kid…’ ( This should be Tshirt and greeting cards I.D )

It would seem every country is doing it.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 10 Jul 2013 07:03:14 +1200

ears looking at you kid…’
Waihopai rates a mention in this Age article.
The US Australian Joint Defence Facility at Pine Gap near Alice Springs and three Australian Signals Directorate facilities: the Shoal Bay Receiving Station near Darwin, the Australian Defence Satellite Communications Facility at Geraldton and the naval communications…

BenWilson

Tue, 09 Jul 2013 17:21:19 +1200

I'd say a Randroid parses Adam Smith, but the parse tree just reflects the prejudice of the programmer.

Kumara Republic

Tue, 09 Jul 2013 17:16:01 +1200

Heh, I feel that way when Libertarians misuse Karl Popper.

And Adam Smith took a dim view of monopolies and cartels: “People of the same trade seldom meet… ” Hell, he's even regarded as a raging Red by some of these same people.

With apologies to Ronnie Reagan, a Randroid…

Keir Leslie

Tue, 09 Jul 2013 17:13:11 +1200

Done for you big boy...

BenWilson

Tue, 09 Jul 2013 16:45:06 +1200

that has me resisting the temptation to throw stuff at my screen

Heh, I feel that way when Libertarians misuse Karl Popper. FFS, Hide, Popper believed in "Piecemeal Social Engineering" and said of NZ under the Savage Government welfare reforms that it was the best organized country on the planet.…

BenWilson

Tue, 09 Jul 2013 16:09:56 +1200

LOL

Howard Edwards

Tue, 09 Jul 2013 16:00:49 +1200

In Rodney's case, "nothing to Hide" seems uncannily accurate.

Kumara Republic

Tue, 09 Jul 2013 15:01:00 +1200

Yes, I’m all for liberty. The philosophical arguments for liberty itself are very sound. The idea that a primacy given to property rights maximizes liberty is a big leap, especially since property rights are in themselves a denial of liberty to everyone but the owner of the property.

And the…

BenWilson

Tue, 09 Jul 2013 14:46:16 +1200

I understood Lucy’s question to be asking “if you’re going to filter electronic communication, you really have to filter all of it, don’t you? And you do have to take account of electronic communication nowadays, surely?”. In other words, filtering all the traffic flows naturally from the idea that it…

Stephen R

Tue, 09 Jul 2013 11:20:41 +1200

In Stuff today, Johnkey says our spying is legal, and we've made no secret about how we've shared our data with our intelligence partners.

That makes me feel so much better.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8895637/PM-Our-spying-is-legal

BenWilson

Tue, 09 Jul 2013 10:50:40 +1200

This is because the ACT-style libertarians have a weird way of understanding liberty that bases everything on property rights.

Yes, I'm all for liberty. The philosophical arguments for liberty itself are very sound. The idea that a primacy given to property rights maximizes liberty is a big leap, especially since…

Stephen Judd

Tue, 09 Jul 2013 09:55:10 +1200

ACT failed that one long ago.

This is because the ACT-style libertarians have a weird way of understanding liberty that bases everything on property rights.

David Hood

Tue, 09 Jul 2013 09:31:01 +1200

Would it even be possible to spy effectively these days without in some way filtering all electronic communication?
I am going to say yes it would, as there are both a) Methods of passing messages that avoid the electronic filters (most of these are only really of use if you…

Don Christie

Tue, 09 Jul 2013 00:59:40 +1200

Coming in a little late. Thomas' presentation was masterful. John Key's constant attempts to misrepresent what submitters have been saying is dispicable.

I think he has been feed his line of questioning from the same idiot beaurocrats who equated copyright infringement with people trafficking, drug dealing and the illegal arms…

"chris"

Mon, 08 Jul 2013 17:07:00 +1200

it’s pretty clear you can easily avoid such spying just by not doing your communication in that way, and is thus a highly appealing method to anyone actually doing anything really dodgy

“22:22 (14 hours ago)
Dear Felix,
Erectile dysfunction medication has arrived, we are all systems go! See you…

Aidan

Mon, 08 Jul 2013 16:23:26 +1200

I know Russell was concerned about the reporting of the Snowden leaks. That there was a lot of accusations of broad abuse without a lot of evidence. The stuff that keeps tumbling out does not look good.

E.g. early on USA admit to widespread snooping on "foreigners overseas"

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/us/nsa-verizon-calls.html

then…

Jarno van der Linden

Mon, 08 Jul 2013 16:13:16 +1200

"we live in a dangerous world"

Fear!

'nothing to hide, nothing to fear'

Don't fear!

So if I fear the dangers in the world (which the government recommends), does that mean I must be hiding something (which the government finds suspicious)?

Kumara Republic

Mon, 08 Jul 2013 13:59:03 +1200

A close matching analogy would be an over-reliance on CCTV at the expense of duty cops on the beat.

BenWilson

Mon, 08 Jul 2013 13:19:48 +1200

That could be true without countering Lucy's question. Human intelligence could be applied to the electronic streams that make up so much of our communication, too. But yes, it's pretty clear you can easily avoid such scrying just by not doing your communication in that way, and is thus a…

Chris Waugh

Mon, 08 Jul 2013 13:14:36 +1200

Would it even be possible to spy effectively these days without in some way filtering all electronic communication?

I was under the impression that an awful lot of the USA's troubles in recent decades – perhaps even stretching as far back as Vietnam – were at least in part due…

BenWilson

Mon, 08 Jul 2013 13:05:03 +1200

doesn’t that mean that it must now be a choice between no effective spying at all (which may be how you prefer it, and that’s a valid position) or spying on everyone?

I guess it depends what one even means by "spying on". Is an automated scanner flagging some feature…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Mon, 08 Jul 2013 12:25:10 +1200

Would it even be possible to spy effectively these days without in some way filtering all electronic communication? Given that filtering will always turn up entirely innocent communication "bycatch", doesn't that mean that it must now be a choice between no effective spying at all (which may be how you…

BenWilson

Mon, 08 Jul 2013 11:34:24 +1200

The GCSB blow-up seems to be a litmus test for how libertarian a libertarian really is.

ACT failed that one long ago. Immediately after 9/11, I remember Prebble carrying on at length in Parliament about how this was proof that the govt was being irresponsible scrapping the SkyHawks, which could…

Kumara Republic

Mon, 08 Jul 2013 10:18:07 +1200

The GCSB blow-up seems to be a litmus test for how libertarian a libertarian really is. We already know that Rodney and Whaleoil are in the 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' camp.

Matthew Poole

Mon, 08 Jul 2013 08:16:02 +1200

Oh, the stupid. "It's really bad, and you have to trust me because I know how bad it is."

"chris"

Sun, 07 Jul 2013 15:51:12 +1200

[Danger Alert]

Early nomination for word [phrase] of the year comes from Public Address reader Rodney Hide:

"we live in a dangerous world"

Sacha

Sat, 06 Jul 2013 12:16:29 +1200

+1. and do stay around here, Kirk.

Kirk Alexander

Sat, 06 Jul 2013 12:10:30 +1200

Just de-lurking to thank Russell and the team very much for a wonderful, thought-provoking season of Media3. I will be eagerly awaiting the next season, while coming up with something else to do on Saturday mornings. Cheers!

Chris Waugh

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 23:47:16 +1200

Or been Shanghaied.

Huh, yeah. I'm not being entirely facetious when I say: Oh, you lot want to know what it feels like to live under the kind of regime this government is proposing? Just come spend a few months in China VPN-free.

Chris Waugh

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 23:44:53 +1200

Oh, you mean this?

"chris"

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 23:15:33 +1200

To the best of my knowledge, in both those cases I mentioned they were sent to the black jails, midnight wake up drills and all. With regards to the renegotiation, I’m always a little dumbstruck at how gracefully middle New Zealand seems to accept these little erosions. Even the briefest…

Ross Mason

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 23:07:12 +1200

Thanks for paraphrasing Russell, I’m wondering if we should all chip in to get Scoop a decent audio setup.

Bradley Ambrose could give them a transmitting microphone. Probably hasn't been used for a while.

Oh wait......John Banks was at the Select Committee table wasn't he? Was Bradley around…

Chris Waugh

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 22:43:15 +1200

I've been resisting the urge to bring in the China comparison, but now that it's here.... What disturbs me is the two distinct ways in which the freedom/security balance is being renegotiated in China and "the West". In China it's more the people, in particular the nascent civil society among…

"chris"

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 20:29:58 +1200

I find that governments are using the threat of terrorism to massively expand their authority and erode our freedom

I can’t agree more, I’d even suggest that erasing western privacy could potentially end up provoking more terrorism than previously existed. Sure Big Brother cleans up in that novel but in…

BenWilson

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 19:57:17 +1200

We actually have to make decisions about what we are prepared to allow to avoid risk.

Yes, and what we are prepared to endure, as well. Abstinence is a fail-safe form of birth control, for example.

Russell Brown

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 18:35:32 +1200

And a very good point that is, too.

He went on to point out (I paraphrase) that by the same logic you could say "that terrorist bombing could have been prevented if only we'd had a surveillance camera in every home". Avoiding risk isn't an absolute. We actually have to…

Chris Waugh

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 18:03:32 +1200

Beagle says [roughly] “and your hypothesis would be that the GSCB can’t stop that or hadn’t stopped that in the past?”

And a very good point that is, too.

I find that governments are using the threat of terrorism to massively expand their authority and erode our freedom which seems…

"chris"

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 15:44:17 +1200

I listened a couple of times, I still haven’t found

“but what if there was a bomb and some children died?”

I’ve located “what if there was a bomb at an airport and some people die?” (11:20). Beagle says [roughly] “and your hypothesis would be that the GSCB can’t stop…

Will de Cleene

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 15:33:03 +1200

The excellent Thomas Beagle has posted his oral submission here.

Stephen Judd

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 15:03:53 +1200

Key didn’t chair today. Tony Ryall did. Ryall was marvellously courteous and totally bored. Asked no questions. Norman was most active, then Shearer. Banks actually asked a helpful question of one submitter.

My submission was pretty close to [[http://vital.org.nz/entry/title/10_minutes_on_the_gcsb_bill|this]. I fell to temptation and led with “long time listener first…

Russell Brown

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 09:45:40 +1200

Juha's story for Australian IT quotes the GCSB as saying the failure of their website and its backup was "an internal issue". I'm not entirely comforted by the fact that the website of our "mastery of cyberspace" agency can just fall over to that degree.

Sofie Bribiesca

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 08:19:59 +1200

I have often thought this PM would have been wise to select a more experienced substitute given his lack of experience

LOL

slarty

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 08:01:32 +1200

The PM is always the chair of this committee – section 7(3) of the Intelligence and Security Committee Act requires it (or allows the PM to select someone, but that has not happened since the Committee came into existence).

I have often thought this PM would have been wise to…

Juha Saarinen

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 08:01:15 +1200

Let me chime in and vouch for Sean who is as you say a nice guy and very approachable.

Gary Young

Fri, 05 Jul 2013 07:36:57 +1200

Is NZ democracy really run on the smell of an oily rag?

Regrettably I fear it is currently being run by an oily prime minister...

Andrew E

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 22:46:57 +1200

The sound on the recording is f-ing awful. It's a disgrace that there isn't a proper, high-quality recording and transmission of select committee sessions. UK Select Committees have had this for years. Is NZ democracy really run on the smell of an oily rag?

Russell Brown

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 21:24:57 +1200

It’s not a lie. Sean is a freelance reporter and photojournalist. He won a 2010 QANTAS Award, and some photojournalist thing from the time he worked at The Aucklander(?) and has also previously worked as a media person for the Green Party. He’s currently a media person for the Embassy.…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 21:20:45 +1200

by which I mean my daughter's outside with her grandmother, and it looks like a huge storms is about to hit, so gotta run,

Chris Waugh

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 21:17:50 +1200

I stand corrected and I thank you for that. Gotta run....

Russell Brown

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 21:14:13 +1200

I very much imagine Key would have preferred not to do it on this occasion.

I'm sure that's true. But his actual conduct in doing it was weird and at times distasteful. He came across as baiting several submitters, and didn't seem well-briefed on key matters.

andin

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 18:01:17 +1200

I very much imagine Key would have preferred not to do it on this occasion.

Oh the poor man! having to do something he would have preferred not too. Must be why he comes across as a complete fuckwit.
The sound is absolute rubbish and yet there are a forest…

Luke Williamson

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 17:23:28 +1200

Yes, transcript please. The sound was crap unless you like the sound of repetitive coughing. John Key is very interesting in these instances where he feels vaguely threatened – you quite quickly see his nasty side coming through. If you question his authorité, you are immediately responsible for bombs blowing…

Gareth Swain

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 17:23:03 +1200

I also struggled to hear what was said. Can someone point me in the direction of a transcript?

Aidan

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 17:19:31 +1200

Martin Connelly

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 17:08:04 +1200

Is there a transcript of Thomas Beagle's answer to the "what if there is a bomb" question

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 16:46:52 +1200

Was Key’s decision to chair that committee because he wanted control, and didn’t want it going places he wanted to keep hidden?

The PM is always the chair of this committee – section 7(3) of the Intelligence and Security Committee Act requires it (or allows the PM to select someone,…

BenWilson

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 16:43:18 +1200

GSM is encrypted and has been from the start. probably there is some work around but that seems to be an obvious example of a use case where citizens routinely communicate privately as they should.

It's not strong encryption, though. I doubt any intelligence agency couldn't crack it. Details of…

Aidan

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 16:24:21 +1200

Was Key's decision to chair that committee because he wanted control, and didn't want it going places he wanted to keep hidden?

"chris"

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 16:19:34 +1200

The active participation of geeks in civil society benefits everyone.

As long as we as a society rely on a camera mic across the room, forgoing any opportunity to use audio collected on the mics in actual proximity to the speakers, the benefits will remain limited to those with tremendous…

Aidan

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 16:10:55 +1200

So we're all being a bit paranoid.

Speaking of which, Kate Dewes came across as a little prone to paranoia, but the sheer volume of apparent mail intercepts is quite shocking. Is it likely to be true?

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:39:21 +1200

But my WTF?! is two-fold: What is a US Embassy employee doing taking photos of Kim Dotcom at a select committee hearing? And why are we expected to believe he was there in a private capacity? … So would the US Embassy care to tell the truth, or at least…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:11:18 +1200

Surely easier to subscribe to his twitter account?

I'm sure you're right. But my WTF?! is two-fold: What is a US Embassy employee doing taking photos of Kim Dotcom at a select committee hearing? And why are we expected to believe he was there in a private capacity? After all,…

Aidan

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:02:17 +1200

A member of the US Embassy media team, Sean Gillespie, was at the hearing taking photographs of Mr Dotcom. He said later that he was there in a private capacity.

Surely easier to subscribe to his twitter account? As a screaming ego-maniac he posts plenty of pics of himself.

Jason Kemp

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 14:17:45 +1200

I seem to remember many years ago that Pakistan banned GSM mobile technology on the grounds that it could not intercept communications. GSM is encrypted and has been from the start. probably there is some work around but that seems to be an obvious example of a use case where…

Kumara Republic

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 14:10:43 +1200

Meanwhile in Europe, there are diplomatic firecrackers being lit. John le Carré and Frederick Forsyth couldn't make all this up even if they tried.

* Hidden microphone found in Ecuador's London embassy
* Snowden suspicion results in high-level diplomatic disaster
* [[http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10894427|US in damage-repair mode as European allies demand assurances ahead of…

Thomas Beagle

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 14:05:57 +1200

Hi, you can get the Tech Liberty prepared submission from: http://techliberty.org.nz/gcsb-bill-oral-submission/

Kumara Republic

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:47:02 +1200

But of course, if you've done nothing wrong, if you've got nothing to hide, then you've got nothing to worry about, right? Tell that to Arthur Allan Thomas.

And Richard Jewell. And the immediate family of Stephen Lawrence.

Chris Waugh

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:26:41 +1200

Tangentially related, but:

A member of the US Embassy media team, Sean Gillespie, was at the hearing taking photographs of Mr Dotcom. He said later that he was there in a private capacity.

WTF?!

steve black

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:10:30 +1200

It crossed my mind that maybe the GCSB "altered" the email send to Mr DotCom to say 25 minutes instead of 15 minutes just to trip him up and show him they could. Sorry, could't help thinking it. :-)

James W

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:08:03 +1200

Are there transcripts of those videos anywhere? The sound is so bad I'm having trouble making out what they're saying.

Chris Waugh

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 12:51:42 +1200

When discussing this new bill requiring intercept capability and the various services mostly physically located in North America, one of your guests, Peter Griffin, I think, raised the possibility of NZ simply walling itself off from Skype then said that that would be unthinkable. Oh no it's not. For example,…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 12:07:41 +1200

In the meantime: got any work?

I need a new teacher to start in September. Want to move to Beijing?

Russell Brown

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 11:57:03 +1200

Here’s an embiggened version of that Incapsula error page. Just to note that it the IP address fields weren't empty, I just took them out.

Public Address

Thu, 04 Jul 2013 11:57:02 +1200

Discussion from blog post.