Now that was an ad hominem attack. But I forgive you

Bye

~mark

There's nothing honest in what you've been doing.

There goes your respect for the author's stated intentions. Bye now.

taking it to what I honestly consider to be its logical consequences.

There's nothing honest in what you've been doing.

I don’t think it was accurately described as an ad hominem because it was intended to mock your argument, not principally to be an attack on your person, per se. If anything, you yourself seem to be saying it was a straw man, not an ad hominem.

every time…

He does it all the time, and not just to me.

Well, I won't be the judge of that, it's obviously up to others to decide whether that particular shoe fits. I can tell you that what I try to do is to discuss on the basis of what my…

Given that Russell is away with his big stick, everyone could be adult about it and stop themselves.

One of the pionts that struck me was the fact that the Japanese medical jounal was publised in English and only in English.

There are dozens of scientific journals like that. Publishing in physics in your own language (if it doesn't happen to be English of course) is basically unheard…

That wasn't an ad hominem.

Yes, it was. Gio was taking my statements about the value of a hypothetical future universal language out of context and using them to say assert that I'm a stupid arse who doesn't try to learn foreign languages when abroad, and that I believe everyone…

I won't break out the ad hominems...

That wasn't an ad hominem. (Certainly no more than "I don't like your style".)

one last time

That would be good.

Human dignity might be better preserved if finding a toilet were something that could be done without amusing (to everyone else) antics.

What's amusing is your refusal when you travel abroad to bother to bring a phrasebook or learn the few sentences that would enable you to navigate these everyday…

Sacha, I suspect you are wise not to waste your time so, because you have…

Ben, your understanding of communication is outdated and woefully inadequate.

C'mon Sacha, a few more pages of reiterating the bleeding obvious won't hurt. It's got got a nice drone, you can nod to it.

Oh, for sure, though it would probably take rather a perverse audience to observe someone hopping up and down in agitated discomfort and conclude that they're desperate to enter a pogo competition, eh.

I think it's pretty perverse that it even has to come to that. Human dignity might…

Yay, a fan!

I love you all equally.

I like that

Yay, a fan!

I give up

Heh, that clip is just as funny now as it was the first time. I'm sorry you're giving up, though. I thought your analogy was interesting and could have gone somewhere. You could have totally pushed it towards saying that there…

...in light of the veritable beating I received from all and sundry on this here website, for appearing to suggest that tastes are absolute.

I missed that one. Man, you are such a troublemaker, BenWilson.

I like that.

Nobody gets my Simpsons references on PAS.

Ants.

You're such a slut Brockman.

Thank you. Nobody gets my Simpsons references on PAS. I once wrote that my English was, how you say, inelegant... nothing.

I for one welcome our new overlords.

You're such a slut Brockman.

The separation of the work's meaning from the author's is I guess the point where I find the theory wanting. It's the author's intention I want to understand.

Think of it this way, Ben. If your best friend bakes you a birthday cake, but when you eat it you discover…

I don't really see too much distinction between signals that are verbal and those that are not. The non-verbal ones are fewer and therefore less expressive, but they are…

If you'd understood what you'd read, you'd've realised that an appropriate reader is not justified in attributing Nazism to Nietzsche.

This it true. I did not really understand what I read. The separation of the work's meaning from the author's is I guess the point where I find the theory…

Paul
Actually, I did read that the other day. But surely you weren't trying to compete with copyright threads?!?

Not even the vain delusions I do have would make me that foolish.

That is one theory. It is not a fact. The existence of this theory does not make my reasoning specious.

To me it sounds like a bullshit theory, too. As I see it, the meaning of what an author writes is what they intended it to mean. They may have…

Actually, I was thinking of Gio and Emma, but if that's how you roll, patrinfikulo....

I knew my Speaker piece was a little less popular than other threads...

the Prime Minister gamely dancing with a couple of drag queens.

Have we come full circle?

next problem for you to solve: can you do something about this 4-hour time difference i'm up against?

I'm so with you stephen. My marginal stake in this conversation couldn't withstand the two hour time difference. Imagine my surprise when an innocent discussion on grammar turned into this:

Not that…

You just need to get up earlier

yes. but it just never seems to happen, for various reasons.

let's see...

universal language tick
universal time zone tick
universal government (copyright law, etc.) tick
universal cuisine tick
universal left-hand break just like Raglan cross

damn, can we get someone onto that…

You’ve missed his point.

I do that sometimes.

next problem for you to solve: can you do something about this 4-hour time difference i'm up against?

Didn't somebody recently suggest on PAS that we stop differentiating time, so that at 3am in London it's 3am everywhere in the world, even…

You didn't get the general gist of what superpower Tutta Patata possesses?

Well, I kind of worked it out via the glowing rings, but I was trying to relate it back to the hairdressing salon and coming up blank.

Damn you, logical consistency! Damn you to hell!!

Anyhoo, it's been fun, folks. Over and out.

...aw crap.

English is a creolised bastard language, though. That is its history. And that's always been its strength.

Yes, and that is one reason I partly agreed with Islander earlier about language complexity.

Also, I think there's been a fair amount of…

oh, i forgot, everyone got bored with this conversation and left.
next problem for you to solve: can you do something about this 4-hour time difference i'm up against?
(woops, we've already had that thread too?)
fkit,…

of course it would! it would make everuthing so much easier ! all these people not understanding each other is just so silly and so unnecessary.

Hey, someone's finally catching on!

He might have a point though. In the future we mostly seem to be wearing one piece silver suits…

wearing one piece silver suits and speak English

you've already forgotten about the Green Onion Slave Girls?
tsk, tsk.

it would make everuthing so much easier ! all these people not understanding each other is just so silly and so unnecessary.

He might have a point though. In the future we mostly seem to be wearing one piece silver suits and speak English.

Evidence from the future?

eh?

It is supremely and totally possible

that's good. but then so is my being kidnapped by aliens from klingon, or some people from Emma's RPG club. but i just don't see it as very likely...

and it would also be a bloody good thing

of course it would! it would…

How about Englarin?

the prize is yours!
you win a free trip for two-weeks of glorious decontamination work at a luxurious former Japanese biological weapons site in northeastern china!!! please hold the line and give all your details to Jenny, our producer!

are you are implying that everyone will be conversant in a single language in a few hundred years? can you offer any evidence to support that theory? i can't see any at all, but maybe i'm missing something

Evidence from the future? No, I don't have any, I'm sorry. Not…

English is a creolised bastard language, though. That is its history. And that's always been its strength.

Can't argue with that. After all, Latin was spoken in England long before English.

liberally peppers chinese

you know that behaviour like that can land you on death row in some countries, don't you? i'd be pretty careful about adulteration like that if i were her...

first?
ymbfjm?!
LOL

Bugger, pipped again. How about Englarin?

All hail the comma!

Ben was right: Grammar Nazis!

Makes her the centre of attention at any chinese restaurant we visit. It's hilarious.

are you are implying that everyone will be conversant in a single language in a few hundred years? can you offer any evidence to support that theory?

May I be the first to coin "Chinglish" ??

It's all the same to me, that's for sure. Whether it's still a common practice in a few hundred years remains to be seen.

are you are implying that everyone will be conversant in a single language in a few hundred years? can you offer any evidence to support that…

Okay, this is in Italian, sorry, but you'll probably get the gist of it. It's the trailer for a film about a superhero called Tutta Patata (patata means potato but in Genoese it also means... ah, but why spoil it?)

Well that's 2:26 I won't get back...

Giovanni, I suspect…

Nothing to do with the armies and the economic might, then?

I reckon that actually has more to do with it, but the ability of the language to adapt for the massive empire it captured is surely a strength rather than a weakness. It's a way for the language to…

Stephen's cartoon... not working... somebody's too damn wrong on the Internet...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKR3QU3dB0M

English is a creolised bastard language, though. That is its history. And that's always been its strength.

Nothing to do with the armies and the economic might, then?

More to do with endless repeats of M*A*S*H & Friends, I think.

English is a creolised bastard language, though. That is its history. And that's always been its strength.

Nothing to do with the armies and the economic might, then?

I certainly do not believe in the equivalency of all languages. I am also bilingual, don't forget. But I do believe in the value of shared language. Then we don't need to rely on translation.

Gio

As I'm sure you appreciate, translation is often not an option. When you…

The first time I had sushi, I mistook the wasabi for avocado and the ginger for ham.

It's a rite of passage, I think.

Does your fellow man actually want to communicate with you in a creolised bastard form of English though?

English is a creolised bastard language, though. That is its history. And that's always been its strength.

some wag is certain to try & lick it off

Wogs, too. The first time I had sushi, I mistook the wasabi for avocado and the ginger for ham. Good times.

I'll courier down a tin of green paint.

Better still, a tub of wasabi... some wag is certain to try & lick it off... tee hee....

where we some time fulfill the roles of 'pron gal' and 'Italian gastronomy guy'.

I totally reckon Giovanni and I should get costumes.

Okay, this is in Italian, sorry, but you'll probably get the gist of it. It's the trailer for a film about a superhero called Tutta Patata (patata…

I totally reckon Giovanni and I should get costumes.

I'll courier down a tin of green paint.

where we some time fulfill the roles of 'pron gal' and 'Italian gastronomy guy'.

I totally reckon Giovanni and I should get costumes.

Damnit, there is so much specious reasoning on display here it's difficult to know where to start.

That's the way he rolls, muthafucka. ;-)

"I dont actually think it would require any kind of large project, just a change in attitude towards tolerance in English to newer, simpler, foreign influenced forms. And a willingness to…

How about when the writer is dead, or otherwise unavailable?

Then we're stuck with their ambiguity, whether they were grammatical or otherwise. I think the standard thing to do is try to find…

As for how lamentable it is that languages die out....well yup. It is. But that's not enough reason to not try to communicate with your fellow man better.

Which takes me to the alternative – that a natural language becomes the…

David, I don't want to wipe out languages, nor would that be a consequence of learning a new language.

Ben, the suggestion that learning a new language does not pose a threat to endangered languages is simply not true. In fact, the opposite is true. Probably the single biggest threat…

But I can already.

Dude, you speak English

Jeebus, could you be any more parochial? I meant I can understand people who speak languages other than English or Italian, and be understood by them. This takes some sort of cake, really.

Perhaps that's why I usually start drinking early on Feb 6th.

But I can already.

Dude, you speak English.

And then how do you lpan to organise this universal language thing. Will it replace all local ones? That would be horrendous. Will it run alongside, and if so how? And since English would always be the weakest language for all the…

Good lord, I don't think you're a racist, and I wasn't trying to suggest that for a second. I do think your arguments aren't very considered, though. Wrong, even.

Go for it. Say why. You might convince me. I'll take your word for it that you don't think I'm a…

How about "So you can understand, and be understood by, everyone"

But I can already. I read books in translation, I watch films with subtitles, I learn bits of other languages. If I'm in Spain or France, I can speak my language, and the locals can speak theirs, and we'll…

But you don't need literacy.

You do if you're reading a rutter, or a captain's log. Sure you can do without, and rely entirely upon meeting someone who happens to have committed to memory the entire path and is prepared to take the time to disseminate that information for you…

That does sound uncannily like our immigration policy.

I don't know how the immigration department rolls these days, but at the time when I immigrated, there was an English speaking requirement to get the visa. that is, unless you were willing to pay the sum of (from memory) 20 thousand…

Yes, but speaking only English – like many New Zealanders – might also be a disadvantage compared with those who are able to triangulate the complex social implications from several languages/cultures.

Not if you understand communication as the means of getting information across, at the service of business or the…

I think you're underestimating the advantages.

You might have to try to convince me, a native speaker of a different language, of the advantages of learning yours. If possible by using an argument other than the current one, which goes more or less: "Do you want to have a job…

How ironic to hear someone presumaly educated in NZ, at one of the vertices of the Polynesian triangle, bang on about the inadequacy of oral culture mnemonic techniques for navigation

Exactly – and those stick charts are honoured in the bright patterned carpets of the Auckland Central Library.

Insisting on meandering does, however, harm clear communication.

Well naturally, in a given situation, which is why I wonder whether you bother to mention it, unless it's something that you're advocating as some kind of general principal. In which case it comes across as 'Imagination leads to technical errors".

I suspect you might be underestimating the kind of investment (cultural, human, monetary) that introducing a second native language into a country represents.

I think you're underestimating the advantages.

Now I'm confused – isn't this what you have been arguing against, Ben?

No. I've been advocating using simple English with…

put native English speakers at a significant advantage in a globalised world

Yes, but speaking only English – like many New Zealanders – might also be a disadvantage compared with those who are able to triangulate the complex social implications from several languages/cultures.

to sail around the whole world you need maps

But you don't need literacy.

In fact stick charts are mnemonic aids for an oral culture that work very well for navigating long distances.

How ironic to hear someone presumaly educated in NZ, at one of the vertices of the Polynesian…

widespread tolerance of the simpler ways of speaking as, far from being uncouth, both polite and normal

Now I'm confused – isn't this what you have been arguing against, Ben?

Then it would just be advantageous for everyone.

Ah, the benign face of neocolonialism! Where would we be without it.

I suspect you might be underestimating the kind of investment (cultural, human, monetary) that introducing a second native language into a country represents.

And that wouldn't happen to put native English speakers at a significant advantage in a globalised world, wouldn't it?

It sure would, which has got to be one of the very best reasons for English speakers to actually try to do it. It is an advantage that would dissipate rapidly,…

So we try to find all kinds of ways to convey our meaning more clearly without all the non-verbal clues we absolutely rely on in face to face communication.

Well yes. But that's the ambiguity of written conversation, the opposite of the ambiguity of oral conversation, which was my... original…

Yes, they're not mutually exclusive – unless you seek to universally apply rules that only work for one of them. Get it?

Yup. That would be bad, and I'm not suggesting it.

The only language that I see needing such reform is English, and only if people would like it…

I'm suggesting that we could all speak at least one language that everyone could understand in general

And that wouldn't happen to put native English speakers at a significant advantage in a globalised world, wouldn't it?

Right now, languages are dying out at a scarily high rate – one every two weeks. It's estimated that almost half of the 7000 languages spoken today are in danger of extinction.

So, in 270 years we will wake up and say "mmmm mm mmm nn m mm nn"
Ok, I…

If, however, after such a thing happening (the whole world somehow managing to agree on universal…

Ah, yes. As soon as I imagined Chrissie Hind's voice sing "something is lost..." it fell into place.

It's one of my few, useless talents.

(The use of that comma up there is totally relevant to this thread, btw. If I hadn't inserted it, I would be saying 'I have…

Actually, it kind of does, insofar as it rests on an ethos that is very pervasive and not always tolerant of difference.

Communicating clearly is extremely tolerant of difference. It's something that people of difference usually prefer.

I would never advocate the death of other languages. I don't think that…

We equate information with knowledge, and clear communication with good communication. But there is another word you can apply to communication: rich. And it doesn't always go the same way as clear.

I'd go further and say communication is about understanding – and there's always more to that than mere…

to sail around the whole world you need maps, rutters, etc

Ummm... no, I think I'll let Emma deal with this one.

But clear communication is also incredibly valuable, and doesn't disallow your meanderings.

Actually, it kind of does, insofar as it rests on an ethos that is very pervasive and not always tolerant of difference. But different cultures have different habits of mind, which are sometimes reflected in their languages, not…

"Nor is it hard to ask for clarification of accidental ambiguity...

How about when the writer is dead, or otherwise unavailable?

Then we're stuck with their ambiguity

Don't you get tired from moving the goalposts so often?

And I nominate Ben for "Knowledge Bro"

That's too big a title for one guy who doesn't really know much.

Oh, the author is dead anyway. Didn't you get the memo?

I did, but decided that it meant something else.

And I don't need to tell you that there is more to life than that, and that subtlety, meandernig arguments, taking them to get to your point whilst attempting to articulate contraty perspectives, are things of some cultural value.

Sure. But clear communication is also incredibly valuable, and doesn't…

How about when the writer is dead, or otherwise unavailable?

Oh, the author is dead anyway. Didn't you get the memo?

Nor is it hard to ask for clarification of accidental ambiguity, which happens all the time, no matter how many rules you have.

How about when the writer is dead, or otherwise unavailable?

Good question. Although we've had a few decades of of academic thought dedicated to solving such problems…

Now, I feel comfortable enough with my knowledge of Giovanni, gleaned through this forum, to make this joke and feel that he'll understand how I meant it, and I can predict how he'll take it.

I did, and I thought it was lovely since I was fully expecting you to…

Jack

On the other hand, using a machine makes you much better at using the machine.

Indeed, and by analogy, using writing made us much more effective at using writing and doing things that can be…

Nor is it hard to ask for clarification of accidental ambiguity, which happens all the time, no matter how many rules you have.

How about when the writer is dead, or otherwise unavailable?

instances of "IMNSHO"

33.

Are you thinking of The Pretenders' 'Hymn to Her'?

Ah, yes. As soon as I imagined Chrissie Hind's voice sing "something is lost..." it fell into place.

Pre-literate societies were trained in ways to cope without writing, but you aren't suggesting that oral history is as effective as written at storing information?

Not as effective, no, but differently effective. And efficacy in itself is such a loaded term. It could lead one to infer for instance that…

On the flipside, when the meaning was clear, but there is some violation of some rule or other, is that person a poor communicator? I don't think so.

Not necessarily, especially in informal situations, on that we agree. But I don't think it is useful to brush off every rule…

Something is lost in the process of using a machine of any kind – your natural ability will atrophy.... I really don't think running to the CBD from an outer suburb every day is necessary.

On the other hand, using a machine makes you much better at using the machine.…

Hmmm private jokes. The ultimate in communicative clarity.

No, that's not a private joke. (I feel a clanging sense of doom even as I type this.) Gio and I have had very little offsite communication – some, but not much, and certainly none that affects this joke. Which I actually…

(is that a song lyric?)

Are you thinking of The Pretenders' 'Hymn to Her'?

Yes I am, Gio, and no that's not the way you like it. There's not enough mascarpone for a start.

Hmmm private jokes. The ultimate in communicative clarity.

Now you're just being silly. If a rule is essential to disambiguation, it's not an arcane rule, it's a useful convention for communication.

In case you hadn't noticed, that is the very point I'm disputing. I'm saying that basically no rule is ever needed for disambiguation. You can disambiguate another…

And Google says we have racked up about 400 uses of IMHO here – so on average we must be twice as opinionated as we are humble. Heh.

Probably even more so if you factor in instances of "IMNSHO"?

I'm going to phone a friend for this one, Ben. Emma, are you there?

Yes I am, Gio, and no that's not the way you like it. There's not enough mascarpone for a start.

Is that they way you like it?

I'm going to phone a friend for this one, Ben. Emma, are you there?

I disagree with your point about 'dropping rules that are essential to disambiguation' being a no-no. Ambiguity is so easily avoided without arcane rules...

Now you're just being silly. If a rule is essential to disambiguation, it's not an arcane rule, it's a useful convention for communication.

Person A says (ie writes) something to person B, who interprets it as an insult, and responds 'in kind'. We end up with a full-blown barney with both sides convinced the other person started it, and they're both right.

Ta, Emma – seen it, done it. And Google says we…

Refuse to explain. You must make an effort to understand.

Ho ho. Fine then, you will be misunderstood, by your own insistence. Is that they way you like it?

I'd go as far as to say it would be a splendid topic for a PhD, except it's been done.

I'm going to go ahead and call pwnage on this.

Because in writing you lose the marvellously subtle and not so subtle cues of verbal intonation.

Again often, but not…

The more complex the situation, the more complex the language. As the world became excessively complex so did the language. It gets to the point where the language becomes too cumbersome to fit its purpose.

And yet, we all use it just fine.

I disagree with your point about 'dropping…

these things are not always necessary for understanding what someone is communicating

I'd say that depends largely on whether we are communicating about just doing stuff or about other matters like being human and the beauty of life. Or the prospect of a pub with no loo.

Not sure if this is a diss. Not sure what is meant at all.

Refuse to explain. You must make an effort to understand.

I'm with Joe: "oh, really?"

Not sure if this is a diss. Not sure what is meant at all.

Of course something is lost in the process. Something is lost in the process of using a machine of any kind – your natural ability will atrophy. That's not usually a…

Toilet out of order,
We apologise for the lack of convenience.

Ahh, wordplay.

"Swim in an area delineated by imaginary lines emanating from said flags in the direction of the sea that are positioned at an angle of 90 degrees from the imaginary line constructed by taking the shortest distance between the aforesaid flags"

Actually, that'd be a pretty cool sign.

That's exactly the problem with oral history. You only have to try it for yourself for a few days to see the problems with it. The first time you forget something important, you'll be jotting things down again.

I'm with Joe: "oh, really?"

But the point of course is that…

Because in writing you lose the marvellously subtle and not so subtle cues of verbal intonation.

Again often, but not always. Or again, these things are not always necessary for understanding what someone is communicating.

That's exactly the problem with oral history. You only have to try it for yourself for a few days to see the problems with it. The first time you forget something important, you'll be jotting things down again.

You don't say. Must give it a go sometime.

And anyone who thinks punctuation conventions are little more than the orthographic equivalent of dressing for dinner...

I don't think anyone is going that far.

Also, if I were to write a note for an assassin, I'd get to the point:

"Kill the King"

or in these more enlightened days,…

Without attempting an understanding of how such things may have been done we have no way of even beginning to quantify just how much may have been preserved or lost.

That's exactly the problem with oral history. You only have to try it for yourself for a few days to…

But if you have a way of marking agreement between nouns and adjectives, then that allows considerably more freedom in how you can position those in a sentence without creating ambiguity (as there may still be only one noun that that particular form of the adjective could go with).

Ah,…

If it can be figured out orally via context, why does it appear written down?

Because in writing you lose the marvellously subtle and not so subtle cues of verbal intonation.

Would the English language get to the point where it starts splitting off like Latin did into French/Spanish/Italian/German/Yugoslav/Romanian? As if English didn't have enough irregularities already.

Seems pretty resilient so far. The English spoken in most other parts of the world is very recognizable. I think technology is mostly responsible…

Storytelling is one of the technologies that enabled canoe fleets to explore the vast Pacific while our European forebears were still worried about dragons. Both cultures come together…