What's with the quote marks around blog? It feels like Dr Evil is reading it out, and he's done the wee quote marks with the fingers... ooh, Russell has got a "blog".

probably to give the impression that it's just a blog, not "real jornalism"?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10495024

Last night a guy came around collecting signatures on a petition to get judder bars installed (not before time, there can be as many as 20-25 kids playing…

The problem is, as ali bramwell has aptly pointed out, that:

...you cannot safely accept what is published on face value without tiangulating your sources. the problems you cite about too ready acceptance of information presented to you are not limited to wiki.

However, because it's readily searchable…

The drug ecstacy, or "E", is popular with young people at…

What's with the quote marks around blog? It feels like Dr Evil is reading it out, and he's done the wee quote marks with the fingers... ooh, Russell has got a "blog".

Agreed. And there’s no need for quotes around addresses and editing, either. It was already stated in the…

Trudeau also once wore a cape to a football game ... and gave some protesting farmers (is there any other sort?) the finger out of a train window. Top bloke.

He was certainly unusual. He arranged for the RCMP to score his young wife's pot for her, during their brief…

Bill English could sacrifice goats and worship the Edmonds Cook Book for all I care. As long as he governs for the people (not the goat) if/when he becomes PM/Min of Fin

I may not worship the Edmonds Cook Book, but I'm not sure. I am very fond of it,…

After reflecting on my comment last night and the bit about Trudeau, I think I stand by my original comment with a bit of a caveat.

I interpret Trudeau's statement as saying "if the needs of my country come into conflict with the values of my religion, I must choose…

and before you continue threatening people's jobs, how about you list your full name and occupation. please.

I'm just hoping the main point about transparency in the case of more political edits doesn't get lost here.

absolutely. one of the reasons i keep using my real name in forums, despite the arrival of numerous veiled email threats from people like "steve", is that i want to keep…

and frankly, the suggestion that public servants should be prevented from using social media like wikipedia is both miserly and mean.

how about running that wiki-user-checker over the bnz or state insurance?

I strongly believe they should be using and contributing to social media. I'm just hoping the main point…

It's also COMPLETELY MISGUIDED.

There are multiple people behind that address. I very strongly suspect that the IT guy is not the one making the edits

and frankly, the suggestion that public servants should be prevented from using social media like wikipedia is both miserly and mean.

how about running…

I very strongly suspect that the IT guy is not the one making the edits.

I'm quite certain he's not.

The person hiding behind IP address 202.22.18.241 works at Parliament in the IT department.

I have full name, suburb, age, date of birth, photo.

Looks like somebody is going to be fired.

That's a disturbing post. How uncomfortable that people feel it's their role to look up people on the…

The person hiding behind IP address 202.22.18.241 works at Parliament in the IT department.

I have full name, suburb, age, date of birth, photo.

Looks like somebody is going to be fired.

That's a disturbing post. How uncomfortable that people feel it's their role to look up people on the…

As I said, I'm no intent-of-Wiki guru, but the link to their policy on biographies of living people provided earlier in the thread does specifically state that "citation needed" is not acceptable in these cases.
If Bill English's Parliamentary speeches specifically state the link between his political…

Yes Gareth, it's Wikipedia policy to encourage deleting anything unsourced and potentially contentious from articles about living people. A good Wikipedia biography (for example George W. Bush) has citations for just about everything.

It would be more common to tag unsourced material with ["citation needed"]. There are citations available for…

worship the Edmonds Cook Book

Now *that's* a religion I could wholeheartedly support.

Well duh. Editing Wikipedia well isn't easy — we don't want everyone who uses it as a reference to be editing. The idea that this somehow invalidates the process is silly.

Indeed. Just as I'm reasonably certain Slate has a editorial hierarchy. If I want to quibble about something in…

unacceptable conduct such as posting on various forums during the course of their working day

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. (See what I did there? Thread convergence!)

It would be more common to tag unsourced material with ["citation needed"]. There are citations available for the assertions on English's position, at least in so far as his voting record and Parliamentary speeches go. So it's not exactly libellous.

No Russell, read WP:BLP. The material doesn't need to be…

What is your email address?

and editing wikipedia entries associated with…

I have full name, suburb, age, date of birth, photo.

Heh – could I prevail upon you to email me those details? Not going to do anything with them, just curious as this person has commented on my blog in the past & would appear to live quite close to me.

Looks like somebody is going to be fired.

are you assuming that their employer didnt know what they were doing? or in fact that they were not working under instruction?

I have full name, suburb, age, date of birth, photo.

Looks like somebody is going to be fired.

__[Look, this is getting out of hand. Several other people have emailed me with same reverse lookup information.…

According to researchers in Palo Alto, 1 percent of Wikipedia users are responsible for about half of the site's edits.

Well duh. Editing Wikipedia well isn't easy — we don't want everyone who uses it as a reference to be editing. The idea that this somehow…

Yes Gareth, it's Wikipedia policy to encourage deleting anything unsourced and potentially contentious from articles about living people. A good Wikipedia biography (for example George W. Bush) has citations for just about everything.

It would be more common to tag unsourced material with ["citation needed"]. There are citations available for…

Fair enough, and I'd be the first to admit that sometimes my irritability overcomes the best good judgement. Personally, my tolerance for salty language and vivid idiom is much higher than watching faith — something I value and take enormously seriously — routinely used as an offensive political weapon.…

I haven't heard Bill bring this into the media to promote himself this way and his…

...into his fucking fool head...And if you think that makes me a liar, then leathery titties.

Craig, I have no qualms with you argueing your case, but would you please have a little more dignity in doing so. Please do not swear, it lowers the tone of PA, I reckon.…

Politicians and staffers "editing" such entries should have to declare their interests rather than remaining anonymous behind the strings of numbers which make up internet "addresses" for individual users, Brown said today in his Hard News "blog".

"I think 202.22.18.241 is doing way too much, and behaving…

Dear oh dear--that Craig fellow sure takes things personally. Be assured that I don't 'teach religion' at the University of Waikato--I leave my religion (or lack of) at the door.

Yes, I do take it personally and I'm bloody sick of the ill-informed and smug nonsense that gets talked when…

Nice try...

Meh... I've gotten into the habit of just walking away from harrangues by evangelical atheists, and while I wouldn't be silly enough to equate that to any kind of "attack" I'm a little tired of being held personally responsible for the Crusades.

But since folks brought it up,…

subject to ad hominen attacks and personal villification of such nature that they are now frightened to hold such views for fear of attack on their homes and/or family?

Nice try, but as far as I know, the only person who has been subject to physical attack recently, and even…

caveat lector – "let the reader beware"

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10495206

The 'ilk' was a reference to politicians and other person of power.

Social-media sites like Wikipedia and Digg are celebrated as shining examples of Web democracy, places built by millions of Web users who all act as writers, editors, and voters. In reality, a small number of people are running the show. According to researchers…

So yet again I'll attempt to put some parameters around that claim.

– It was an incredibly small sample of just 42…

And, in my opinion, the ratio of inaccuracy on more contentious topics would favour Brittanica by a much greater margin.

The article in Wired reported a study in Nature. That would be one of the most highly respected scientific journals in existence.

Do you really, really, really want to say…

I was fairly neutral about it, until some twat wanted to delete the page on Kiwiburn.

Our article is factual and fully documented, but said twat considered that little festivals in obscure foreign places (Wikipedia isn't US-centric: Yeah, right!) should be tied out of the site.

Fortunately, we won.…

I'd be fucking amazed to hear one say "I'm a Catholic but I leave that at the doors of Parliament" (That person would be a bloody liar).

Um, no Paul. I'd like Mike Huckabee, for example, to get it into his fucking fool head that the President of the United…

I wonder how many people actually care about wikipedia.

sorry to go back to the start. In my quest to have everything hypermediated, life just wouldn't be the same without wikipedia.

I'm not talking about the silly politics, there's more to life than just that crap.

I mean imagine if…

I believe that we need to know about such stuff, for it is naive to believe that religious activities and political stances are not interdependent...not to necessarily make judgements, but to better understand how Bill English and his ilk shape their world view.

I'm not a fucking 'ilk', Lealand. And,…

Get it right, Rex. I put a link to an article documenting research that showed that "Wikipedia is about as accurate as Encyclopedia Britannica."

Indeed it does: for a sample of just 42 scientific articles subject to peer review.

An example of pecisely the kind of misrepresentation of…

Crack open your easter eggs if you like I know what I'll be doing…

I've always thought Confession was Free Therapy & the alter wine a bit of self medication (get in first and then go to the back of the other line for seconds).

And then 3410 showed the depths of his/her wit

Hardly.

At the very least they should surely have citations? As in an article or policy statement whereby Bill English has specifically stated his positions and how they are influenced by his belief?

Yes Gareth, it's Wikipedia policy to encourage deleting anything unsourced and potentially contentious from articles about living people.…

I think you're expected to be genuinely repentant, and not planning on committing the same sin again in the immediate future.

Yeah that's the bit, besides the believing stuff, that I just don't get. They create all these outs for themselves then make like they are not to take advantage…

If…

As for using contraception when they are not meant to. Isn't that why they have confession?

I think you're expected to be genuinely repentant, and not planning on committing the same sin again in the immediate future.

then say a few Heil Marys

I don't know for sure, but it's hail marys. Which might recall biblical references to living things dropping from the sky. I think we covered the topic here last week.

Always wondered how a Pope would decide he was being infallible. You know, he wakes up one day and says, "Oh, yes! I'm just in the zone here, things are really humming, and I'm just going to do something pretty damn infallible, I can feel it in my bones!"

I…

I was immediately contradicted by Deborah, who claimed Wikipedia was "as accurate as Encyclopedia Brittanica".

Get it right, Rex. I put a link to an article documenting research that showed that "Wikipedia is about as accurate as Encyclopedia Britannica."

Here's the link again: Wikipedia, Britannica: A Toss Up

By the…

e.g., one can think that prostitution is a "bad thing" – but still see that there is a convincing case for…

You could of course, read the Wiki.

Nah.

Opus Dei logged on and deleted all the embarrassing stuff.

Seriously, though – and further to more recent comments – there isn't a doctrine of Wikipedia Infalliblity, either.

I commented that:

It's what I call the "Wikipedia effect" – the "broadcaster" of the information imbues that information with a level of credibility it sometimes doesn't deserve, as evidenced by the number of people in blog comments referencing Wikipedia articles as fact…

Haven't they got to wear a certain hat, or sit on a certain seat, or something like that?

Always wondered how a Pope would decide he was being infallible. You know, he wakes up one day and says, "Oh, yes! I'm just in the zone here, things are really humming,…

I mean, I don't think it would have been such a huge deal for Catholics – and it did seem to be, at the time – if they'd all thought it was just a... suggestion.

There's a lovely book by David Lodge called The British Museum is Falling Down, which…

has there been a block placed on the topic?

I don't think so. Why not go edit it yourself? Wikipedia does have a policy on what should and should not be included on biography pages though – see Dave's link above.

Ultimately Wikipedia is not meant to be a complete…

Always wondered how a Pope would decide he was being infallible. You know, he wakes up one day and says, "Oh, yes! I'm just in the zone here, things are really humming, and I'm just going to do something pretty damn infallible, I can feel it in my bones!"

Maybe…

Yes, someone's pointed to me that it could well be an outward-facing IP address, this side of the Parliamentary firewall.

Not to scare an avid reader off or anything... but this IP address visits SunnyO a lot & I would guess from the host name cited in my stats package that…

The removal of the first paragraph, particularly the parts around his policy views as influenced by…

Hundreds of different factors go into anybody's political views – religion is simply one of them – and they are certainly not listed ad nauseum on Wikipedia.

Quite. I don't care if an MP says "this is my religion and it has an impact on how I see the world…

Hundreds of different factors go into anybody's political views – religion is simply one of them – and they are certainly not listed ad nauseum on Wikipedia.

Which would all be fine if this was his National Party page, but it's not, it's an encyclopedia. It's about him as a…

the pope (whichever man happened to be the pope at the time) has only used it twice, once to declare himself infallible,

I didn't know this, and I find it humourous. 'Hi, I'm the Pope and I'm infallible.' Surely that makes everything any Pope said afterwards completely accurate, though? Is…

Hundreds of different factors go into anybody's political views – religion is simply one of them – and they are certainly not listed ad nauseum on Wikipedia.

Hear, hear!

Nice bit of commonsense.

And then out comes this utterly reactionary document, and the issue upon which Papal infallibility now rests is... contraception.

That's not quite right. Humanae Vitae is a teaching. My mum says that when it came out, priests sermonised on it seemingly every damn week (because they would know so much…

It's worth noting that a fairly dedicated group of people is constantly adding unflattering material to the Helen Clark article and others.

And to John Key's entry.

It usually gets worked out in the end, but much more politically motivated editing of MPs' articles seems to come from the right.

I guess…

This may work as some kind of mitigation.

Maybe Jesus was really before his time, indulging in postmodern performance art to the txt generation with a great big "Y?"

My point is that because sexual activity and reproduction are linked within Catholic doctrine, and because they have this Papal edict about Teh Condoms and Teh Pill, you can't just avoid the whole subject if you're married to a conservative Catholic woman.

I must tell my wife she's not conservative.…

I am not a techie type person but I am wondering if the IP address could be everyone using one terminal that might be shared, or could represent the staff of a whole office/floor of Parliament?

Yes, someone's pointed to me that it could well be an outward-facing IP address,…

Your'e saying in the arch conservatives within the Catholic Church would submit to the wifes view?

Apparently I am not explaining my point very well. My point is that because sexual activity and reproduction are linked within Catholic doctrine, and because they have this Papal edict about Teh Condoms and…

I find it a bit troubling. Young is a journalist with particular positions on some issues that would be at odds with those of Bill English. He's grinding axes rather than trying to put the public record straight.

I know what you mean. And yet, the information was public, factual…

He sort of has, back when he was leader, at the time Labour had a recognising Maori spirituality clause in the Local Govt Bill [they later took it out]. Talked about how he had spiritual values but how it was wrong, as well as impractical, to give them the…

I don't have a clear view on whether Young's edit was appropriate, although its removal is equally questionable. What do you think?

I find it a bit troubling. Young is a journalist with particular positions on some issues that would be at odds with those of Bill English. He's grinding…

I am a bit worried about letting my boy see dozens of pictures of a starved naked man getting crucified

This may work as some kind of mitigation.

To get mildly back on topic, I think (probably rather bitchily today) that if Bill was prepared to stand up in public…

C'mon, if it wasn't for all that crucifixion art we wouldn't have heavy metal.

Or 'Always Look On the Bright Side of Life'.

I've never met Bill but from what I've seen he is pretty much a reasonable guy. That less than liberal views have been ascribed to his wife and by defacto him is…

It's the angst that does it.

Must be. I am a bit worried about letting my boy see dozens of pictures of a starved naked man getting crucified, though. I preferred their art when it was just pictures of wholesome motherly women holding cute little babies in whatever lovely looking…

Well it does suck that Catholics have got all the good art.

It's the angst that does it.

Ah, agnostics more offensive than true believers, I suppose.

Yeah, people who get to go to Church and get a divorce, without having to believe in God or feel guilty. How sick is that?

This is more than returned, at least if my family is anything to go by.

Well…

From what I can tell, it's Anglicans they're bitter on, not atheists.

This is more than returned, at least if my family is anything to go by.

From what I can tell, it's Anglicans they're bitter on, not atheists.

Ah, agnostics more offensive than true believers, I suppose.

Yeah I'm always using the site, for technical information or just basic general knowledge.

While some conservative Catholics might feel bound not to practice artificial contraception, liberal Catholics certainly did disagree with the Vatican at the time of Humanae Vitae.

It should be noted that in the early 1970s, in the years after Humanae Vitae, approximately 80 percent of American Catholics did not follow…

i just want to know how i can get a job in government editing and writing wikipedia for a living.

You get a job writing policy for John Key & then you have all the spare time you need for wikipedia editing.

For that matter, English's conservative voting record on bioethical and family policy issues…

To go off in another direction for…

I wonder how many people actually care about wikipedia.

I use it pretty much daily as well. The concept is sound in that if multiple people care enough, entries will become more accurate, not less. Contentious subjects have to be managed but the idea isn't that Wikipedia is your only…

I'd rather see Parliamentary editors register and declare interests in their profiles. That would be much better.

Of course it would be better, but I doubt that it is going to happen. What I find distasteful is The Standards statement that it is the people involved (Peachey and English) who…

It is possible to assume that women are capable of having lives — and opinions — of their own?

Yes, of course. Although there is a key difference between you and your partner having different religious beliefs and English and his partner (possibly) having different religious beliefs and opinions, and…

And I'd also like folks to consider what the reaction would be if Helen Clark was tagged as an agnostic/atheist.

Er, her Wikipedia article does say just that. I can't see a problem with that. Like English's Catholicism, it's a matter of record.

It also comments on her wedding to…

I wonder how many people actually care about wikipedia.

I use it pretty much daily. I want it to be sound.