And then there's reality...

...in which all participants are, in general, actively trying to have a good time, rather than provide an anatomy lesson in a paradoxical attempt to make it "more real". Reality is just fine.

Just wait for the 3D footage :)

I think your desire for such entertainment has come to fruition (no pun intended).

because acting on your compulsion for hetero sex fulfills the need to procreate the species at a subconscious level increasing the chance for your bloodline to continue and humans to evolve/survive.

'i love teh cock' responses and will fuck anything that moves cos i'm greedy

A satire tag might help some who can't distinguish betweeen spoof and troof.

Besides the serious responses have all been said before and most of us get tired of repeating it. You have fixed ideas and my guess is you don't really want to…

Besides the serious responses have all been said before and most of us get tired of repeating it. You have fixed ideas and my guess is you don't really want to…

...so lets just all make superficial quips and pretend we're all so fucking enlightened. its just wayyyy easier

oh you mean like procreation of the species:)

what i find funny is how some think that our attitudes towards sex/ homosex is the sole measure of our state of personal/public evolution.

say someone graduated from bi sex and inanimate objects to animal…

Give him a hug for me!

Ha, so it turns out I DO get to do that.

the idea that we assume heterosexuality, and that all our institutions are designed for heterosexuality, and that in turn creates and / or reinforces heterosexuality, is much more compelling

I have a slight…

Getting back to that Adrienne Rich quote that Giovanni referred to upthread, and reading it charitably,…

And I would have justified that reaction, but I'm just so tuckered out from fucking anything that breathes.

Don't forget the legs! Amputees are so off limits for you.

I only rarely write a column that's actually about sport

They're mostly about uniforms and roller derbies. The former are clearly all queer eye for the straight guy, and the latter clearly all men hating dykes. We need to rename your blog to Queer Theory.

I was working with a PostGrad Indian guy and the concept of personal space is quite different.
I felt like he draped himself over my shoulder

Coming back from Hong Kong the Indian guy in the seat next to me positively draped himself over me – well, his forearm was…

Whether purposefully or not I'm unsure, but Deborah has published today a highly pertinent installment of her Friday Feminist series.

Sheer chance. I queued up a couple of months' worth of Friday Feminist posts before the Christmas break, and this happened to be the one that I queued for today,…

Give him a hug for me!

I don't think I'm allowed to, not after the speech he gave at the Chch launch...

Bet he hugged him though

Well there was that.

I was going to say 'we can do this all day', but I have a date later to go out with a group of drunken women and Dr Haywood.

Give him a hug for me!

Everyone sees the world through the filters of their own experience...

QFT
My example earlier of noticing and being jarred by seeing Egyptian men holding hands was exactly that, a filter on my perception that reflected my culture. It was also something I was not aware of until it occurred.

to mean people or institutions which actually aren't consciously homophobic, but have trouble remembering that non-straight people exist.

As opposed to institutions that have trouble remembering people exist aka businesses

I'd get laid a lot more if you greedy bisexuals didn't insist on gobbling up all the cock and not leaving any for the rest of us.

Too true. I mean, it's not like the cock gets any say, is it?

*sobs* Why do you hate me so much, Craig? Is it because you're gay and I'm a woman?

I'd get laid a lot more if you greedy bisexuals didn't insist on gobbling up all the cock and not leaving any for the rest of us. (And, no, I don't see…

Looking forward to your making the leap to wondering whether Rupert the Bear is a massive shagger.

a group of drunken women and Dr Haywood

A harem, if you will. Just make sure he doesn't wear any of them golf trousers.

Now go dry hump a garden gnome, and make an effort!

*sobs* Why do you hate me so much, Craig? Is it because you're gay and I'm a woman?

(I was going to say 'we can do this all day', but I have a date later to go out with…

but I'm just so tuckered out from fucking anything that breathes.

No things that don't breathe? While I'm sure the sofa and any number of kitchen appliances are profoundly grateful, you're really letting down Team Pervert. Now go dry hump a garden gnome, and make an effort!

I just re-enacted the moments watching Avatar where I covered my face with my hands and quietly whispered 'oh nooooooooooooo...'

And I would have justified that reaction, but I'm just so tuckered out from fucking anything that breathes.

And Tanya Gold's not much better. I have this regular 'wtf is it with female Guardian columnists running down lower-status women' thing, but it gives me a headache.

Sounds a lot like the "what-fraking-ever" reaction I have to gay pundits in "queerer than thou, assimilationist swine" mode. Got more than…

they can just move on to the next thing with legs that breathes

I just re-enacted the moments watching Avatar where I covered my face with my hands and quietly whispered 'oh nooooooooooooo...'

Tell you what, though, it's bloody tough being bi, having to hate men AND women for being competetion.

Hey. I never even looked at your boyfriend.

it's bloody tough being bi, having to hate men AND women for being competetion.

bi is different cos everyone…

And Tanya Gold's not much better. I have this regular 'wtf is it with female Guardian columnists running down lower-status women' thing, but it gives me a headache.

Really, that is so spooky. I've just finished the Bindel post, at Danielle's request, and the other columnist I've complained about is…

coulda just said you dont know. they are afterall simple y/n questions:)

Hey, dude, I'll defer to your expertise. You're the one who knows most lesbians, after all.

Tell you what, though, it's bloody tough being bi, having to hate men AND women for being competetion.

what ? you mean you cant pull a quick study outta your ass or maybe some anecdata ?

coulda just said you dont know. they are afterall simple yeah/nah questions:)

just a couple of quick thoughts...

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the concept of Fractal Wrongness.

sports threads

I meant golfing trousers :)

The survey findings also reported one incident, in which a hotel staff member was hit in the head by a sex toy thrown off a balcony by a jealous husband.

Otherwise known as sports threads :)

I only rarely write a column that's actually about sport

are gay men anti women as much as gay women are (from personal observation) anti men and hence more sexist than straight men in that they see women as competetion ?

and is the dislike shown by some/most lesbians towards men still heterophobic if…

I know what Sodomy is but any ideas on Gomorrahing?

I haven't got a clue but it sounds like your mouth is full.

In which societies is heterosexuality not prevalent?

I meant not as much, pardon me. (Without getting into the argument of whether in certain societies bisexuality might have in fact been the norm.)

Oh, isn't she awful? I have skimmed some things and been horrified.

And Tanya Gold's not much better. I have this regular 'wtf is it with female Guardian columnists running down lower-status women' thing, but it gives me a headache.

Still, it is radical thinkers like Rich who taught us that heterosexuality is also and not insignificantly a social-political construct. And hey, if it wasn't, how would you explain why it's so prevalent in some society and not so much in others?

In which societies is heterosexuality not prevalent?

a quota for gender and sexuality discussions

Otherwise known as sports threads :)

I struggle with feminism that argues that heterosexuality is a mere social-political construct "imposed, managed, organized, propagandized, and maintained by force". It fails on the science, for one thing.

Still, it is radical thinkers like Rich who taught us that heterosexuality is also and not insignificantly a social-political construct. And…

the ones where she trashes transsexuals

Oh, isn't she awful? I have skimmed some things and been horrified.

I say there's no such thing as a quota for gender and sexuality discussions (but of course, I *would* say that, wouldn't I?). Publish away!

Whether purposefully or not I'm unsure, but Deborah has published today a highly pertinent installment of her Friday Feminist series.

Ick.

I struggle with feminism that argues that heterosexuality is a mere social-political construct "imposed, managed, organized, propagandized, and maintained by force". It fails on the science, for one thing.…

so heterocentric institutions/people are those which are homophobic but not conscious of it until you point it out by their behaviour ?

No. Gods, am I really putting it THAT badly? Some heterocentricity is homophobic, some is not. I hesitate to mention this, but we seem to be struggling without…

its all about perception. for my taste the word gets bandied about a little too much cos it may not neccessarily be true but once you start throwing shit around some of it sticks to things it shouldnt

just saying, be mindful of using it…

pollywog, I'm struggling to work out what your actual point is.

I sorta can. "Homophobic" is loaded with quite a lot more meaning than, say, "claustrophobia" — the latter is just a possibly irrational fear of confined spaces. The former implies actions and, at the least, a level of dickishness.…

__You don't have to be homophobic to, for instance, publish a puberty guide for teenagers which assumes that every single person reading it is straight, but if it's pointed out to you that you've done it, and you don't acknowledge it or recognise the damage that erasure…

I don't mean, however, that heterocentrism = 'unconscious homophobia', I mean heterocentrism =/= conscious homophobia. You don't have to be homophobic to, for instance, publish a…

and which others might they be ?... depends on the company you keep i suppose but even then that whole subconscious thing is a hole lot of unknown, hence the term.

so if you're subconsciously or unconsciously homophobic. how would you know ?

By the reactions of others to your behaviours?

I hadn't seen David in a while, so I bowled up and gave him a hug.

"A hug!" he said. "Oh, er, well, yes ... I suppose so!"

He was quite brave about it, really.

For some reason I find this almost unbearably sweet.

so if you're subconsciously or unconsciously homophobic. how would you know ?

Homophobia is a term for a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexuality and people identified or perceived as being homosexual. Definitions of the term refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and (irrational) fear.

The use was also adopted by Psychologist and gay activist George Weinberg in…

not even as to whether the person you're labelling really does have an irrational fear of gays ?

you'd have to be pretty cock sure of yourself to pull that one off:)

aha... seems theres widespread confusion over homophobic and heterosexist

I can assure that, should I use the word 'homophobic', it's not because I'm "confused".

Incidentally, have you ever been in a position where Australians are facing the prospect of a hongi at a powhiri? Most of them look terrified!

Oh! I forgot my favourite "awkward greeting" story: Indian co-worker went to his first hui. We went around saying hello. One very large Maori gentleman…

i'm more rugbymunteraphobic especially when theres a few of em and the been on the turps, even then i'm more wary than fearful.

Incidentally, have you ever been…

Russell, for instance, is A Hugger, so I expect a hug on greeting. David is not, so I stand there feeling really awkward.

Aw yeah. Once when I was visiting Christchurch, David H came to collect me from CPIT where I'd been blathering to some students. I hadn't seen David…

Nope. I did it by assuming that gay athletes might be put off by the outwardly homophobic sports world.

HA! Finally I can my put my finger on the issue I've had with this argument since you made it. The sports world may be outwardly homophobic, but then so is…

Russell, for instance, is A Hugger, so I expect a hug on greeting. David is not, so I stand there feeling really awkward.

yeah totally, hugging's a personal preference. I'm not a hugger if I'm initiating but really who doesn't enjoy a nice hug hello?

With my gay friends we…

i tend to sift off and get irie by myself instead. i'm complicated like that:)

At various stages in my life and with various groups of people hugging has either been frequent and mandatory or completely taboo and I always find making the switch really confusing.

Caveat: this is by no means as fraught for women as it is for men. The only thing anyone's…

Nope. I did it by assuming that gay athletes might be put off by the outwardly homophobic sports world.

You mean gay as in out and proud, not as in closeted, yes? Then you'd be right... clearly there would be some incentive to stay way at the back of the…

grasp thumbs in the classic soul brother grip, raise your interlocked hands to your chests as some sort of buffer. then pull each other close while crossing over slightly and let your opposing shoulders touch ,then pull away while holding each others gaze.

for extra emphasis, reach around with your…

Of course I know SFA about rugby so I'll be oggling the legs... but I don't think I can do that for 80 mins without getting insanely bored.

Just wait for the 3D footage :)

However you arrived at associating effeminate behaviour with homosexuality and butch & homophobic behaviour with heterosexuality, you couldn't be more wrong in your assumption.

Nope. I did it by assuming that gay athletes might be put off by the outwardly homophobic sports world.

Well I guess we'll have to leave numbers behind and errr bond – but in that manly way – over a beer and marvel at the wonderous rugby playing and not give a toss whether the man is straight, gay or something else…

My point about the numbers was that I don't consider the All Blacks to be selected from the general population and so the chances of a player being gay were much much less than most might expect.

Well, yes we see your point but we think you are extremely mistaken.…

grasp thumbs in the classic soul brother grip, raise your interlocked hands to your chests as some sort of buffer. then pull each…

I'm surprised that with the All Blacks hugging each other on TV all the time ... that many men younger than 50 have that much of a hang-up…

And hohohohomophobia...

Are you trying to out Santa or something?

I wish. For reasons I can't fathom it's a 'tic' I picked up in the late 80s when I was coming out. The use of the 'hohoho' indicates nervousness hence a gay using it is being ironic.

Where's the irony…

Not giving hugs to Kiwi male friends is something I had to learn in an awful hurry when I got here. I just couldn't stand the discomfort and the mock-homophobic jokes used to disguise the discomfort. Christ.

Really? I hug male friends as appropriate. Last weekend, I even did that…

And hohohohomophobia...

Are you trying to out Santa or something?

* To work this out properly you can't simply multiply 0.015 by 30, but should multiply the probability that any given player is straight 30 times, or

p(no gay players) = .985^30
p(at least one gay player) =1-p(no gay players) ~ 0.36

Dude, where were you when I was asking…

and as for hongi

Which for me is a real problem, another cultural disjunction.

I know intellectually that shaking hands transfers as many bacteria/virus particles as rubbing noses but for some reason the idea of rubbing my (icky yucky) nose against another person's nose ... shudder.

Yet a kiss on…

...even so far as to avoid shaking hands and as for hongi

i'm wayyyy too tapu for that:)

Not giving hugs to Kiwi male friends is something I had to learn in an awful hurry when I got here.

Bart <

can be hugged and will not assume sexual motivation

Bart <

likes giving hugs, also without sexual motivation

hmmm maybe a T-shirt is needed

that my own culture is so repressed that men touching is jarring.

Not giving hugs to Kiwi male friends is something I had to learn in an awful hurry when I got here. I just couldn't stand the discomfort and the mock-homophobic jokes used to disguise the discomfort. Christ.

the second is photoshopped.

D'oh!

I don't think that that indicates a sexual relationship, in Arab countries,...

Oh no I didn't mean to suggest it did. No more than girls walking hand in hand in NZ suggests sexual relationship. It did jar for me, which is what I found sad, that my own culture is…

I got to go to Egypt in '08 where men walk around hand-in-hand a lot.

I don't think that that indicates a sexual relationship, in Arab countries, as it might be more likely to here. Hence this.

PS. Also this; not gay, despite appearances (to Westerners.)

sorry, have they found those "gay genes", then? Let alone rugby-player genes

I really need a sarcasm tag. My point was that after we find those genes (we probably, but not certainly, will find genes associated with both traits) then it should be possible to prove Gayness does not…

a steamy, homoerotic... um... description of a team. Set among rippling chests, powerful thighs and firm buns, young men cavort in the locker room...

...sounds not unlike murray mexted's normal rugby commentary:)

Gay's generally avoid the sport for reasons of mutual dislike.

Gay men avoid sex with women. They most emphatically do not avoid not male athletes.

You really must read this article Giovanni so kindly linked to:

The Onion

the gays we know about in rugby would have a horrible time, therefore there are and have been very few or no gays of either kind in rugby.

Well, I can't speak for Haydn, but…

Isn't it interesting how often we define sexuality by (pardon my French) fucking, and treat not being particularly interested in getting your end away as some kind of pathology? A rather limited vision, it seems to me.

Extremely limited. There's a great deal more to sexuality than sex.

Over-sensitive? Sure.…

A gay man is a man who has sex with other men.

No. Here's my personal bottom line: nobody gets to define anybody else's sexuality for them. Nobody. A "closeted" gay man is someone like Gareth Thomas who knows he's gay, who internally identifies as gay, but doesn't admit it…

I'd go further, and say it's a man who wants to have sex with other men – you can be celibate for a decade and still be 100% gay.

Isn't it interesting how often we define sexuality by (pardon my French) fucking, and treat not being particularly interested in getting…

A gay man is a man who has sex with other men.

I'd go further, and say it's a man who wants to have sex with other men – you can be celibate for a decade and still be 100% gay. And by that measure, I guarantee there have been…

There is a large group of men who think of themselves as heterosexual, even when it is evident they are not.

The Onion has more.

rugby culture isn't generally gay friendly and so I agree with Haydn – rugby players are a self selecting and pretty much heterosexual group.

You mean "rugby players are a self-selecting and pretty much closeted group." To conflate gay with effeminate is wildly misguided. Effeminate does not necessarily even accompany…

You're missing the elephant. The post asks how common gays are in rugby. Now there are two potentially two types of gays in rugby (oversimplifying horribly), those we know about and those we don't.

You and Hayden both seem to…

"Polar bears" is a bit of an online joke, the answer you post to a rant to indicate no one has a clue about what you are on about or what point you are trying to make.

Why is the question of closeted gays, or people living a lie in regards to their sexuality worthy of such derision in light of Gareth Thomas? He was closeted for a decade or two, he was living a lie, he did play rugby.

Why polar bears?

And if XYZ hadn't come out as gay? Maybe because they don't want the bullshit and the comments and the heavier hits? What if XYZ goes out with a girl he met at a party, gets married? You know, like Gareth Thomas.

How long does it take everyone to know…

I'm afraid I can't link to it – I have it in an anthology of NZ…

"There are areas in which it is not unjust discrimination to take sexual orientation into account, for example, in the placement of children for adoption or foster care,…

2) As Sociologist , who does a little work in the area of sexuality, I'd say that trying to figure out on a statistical basis how many gays there are is impossible. A lot…

surely one can put a lower bound on the number of gay All Blacks by simply counting the ones with handbags?

What are you implying about Tana?

How long does it take everyone to know…

Yes, but, how would the other team know?

Small towns – and big ones – have small rugby communities. it would take all of two weekends for everyone to know XYZ had come out as gay.

On the other hand, it seems that a significant number of players would regard an openly gay opponent as fair game for the extra hard hit, the slightly more aggressive fend, the extra shove in the back.

Yes, but, how would the other team know? It's not like the guy…

A list of 'confirmed bachelors' with 'longtime companions'? :)

Ah, yes... if you're using the same style book where "never married" is a euphemism for "the Jacques Cousteau of muff divers". :(

I don't think that's true at all. Ali Williams for one didn't pick up an oval ball until he was about 17 from memory.

How many others would that apply to? The guys I met who play NPC had all been playing since the crib.

It's pretty much impossible to become an All Black unless you've zeroed in on rugby and shown uncommon talent since long before adolescence

I don't think that's true at all. Ali Williams for one didn't pick up an oval ball until he was about 17 from memory.

Did I say that? No. What I said was you have to buy into a self consciously male culture to succeed.

No you didn't say that, and it was an admittedly cheap shot. But you did pretty much say that gays are much much less likely to buy into a…

everything that's known about the lives of all 1100 capped ABs and make an educated guess whether they're gay or not

A list of 'confirmed bachelors' with 'longtime companions'? :)

So your argument boils down to gays are effeminate?

Did I say that? No. What I said was you have to buy into a self consciously male culture to succeed.

I give you... Gareth Thomas. Self consciously masculine and apparently gay...

Considering the blood and guts image of rugby I'd posit that only gay men with an interest in SM would be attracted to the playing the game, which would somewhat limit the appeal to gay people in general.

You keep saying this as if your wild speculation about selection against gay elite rugby players has any validity.

I can't comment on rugby, but in my sport, coming out at that age to your team mates... It probably wouldn't get you beaten up, but your sporting life would completely…

*Unless you could get good figures for the incidence of the genetic and environmental conditions that produce teh gayz.

And then do the linkage disequilibrium analysis to identify linked traits, lol.

In english.

You'd need to find the genes (probably several) that correlate with genetic homosexuality and the genes that…

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=buccigross_john&id=4685761

only if they are selected at random from the general population.

You keep saying this as if your wild speculation about selection against gay elite rugby players has any validity.

Even arguing that there is prejudice at the 16/17 year old level is just speculation and not based on any…

part of the argument here is that rugby discourages participation by gay men

Sorry, I meant as a rate in the general population, an equivalent of that '1.5%'. It's still really too early for me to be properly coherent, and I can see it doesn't read that way.

*Unless you could get good figures for the incidence of the genetic and environmental conditions that produce teh gayz.

Not even then, since I think part of the argument here is that rugby discourages participation by gay men. I don't think it'd ever be possible to disambiguate that factor, without…

But your 1.5% is the rate of out gay men. It tells you how likely…

i mean true or false...sebastian chabal is PHWOOOOOARRRR!!!

The same goes for the average 8.8 players per year who join the All Blacks (1,100 players over 125 years). There is a probability of 0.125 of one of them being a gay player only if they are selected at random from the general population.

Yer assumptions are bunk again.…

It’s what happens to the 16 / 17 year-old that weights the stats at the elite level. That’s the age where the prejudice is probably at its worst,…

Former NBA player John Amaechi, who came out in 2007 after he retired, rightfully says that the problem now becomes that Thomas is not seen as some great Welsh rugby hero, but as "that guy who was gay".

You know, there's something that really really fucks me off about statements…

After thinking and discussing with my statistically adept partner: 0.36 is the probability of there being a gay player on the team if they are selected at random form the general population. And no matter what you might think of Graham Henry I'm fairly sure he doesn't do that.

This…

The…

The Tonight news show on TV1 has a BBC piece on him coming up this evening, around 11pm (Tuesday night – half an hour or so away from…

1.5% of 1,440 = about 22.

Fuck!

So, using 1.5% out of 1,440 NFL players, about 170 are gay? [I apologise for my poor maths]

1.5% of 1,440 = about 22.

That said, making such calculations is a pretty futile exercise. Suffice to say, there are undoubtedly more gay rugby players than just Gareth Thomas.

A friend of mine took much whisky once with a very well-known (and late) sports journalist, who told the tale of chancing upon two All Blacks in bed, at a provincial motel. And that was a while ago.

Was one of them a hooker? Jokes.

On the percent thing...

There…

Dude, where were you when I was asking for stats help on Twitter (I did pure maths, no stats)

Somewhere other than twitter it would seem.

Doesn't your equation assume that they are selected from a general population and not from a particular group of rugby players?

Sure. But we…

Not sure if it’s the same person, but arguably NZ’s best ref is gay, and pretty open about it. From what I understand the players couldn’t give a toss because he’s good at what he does.

And yet the bigots still keep women out of reffing... perhaps you need a…

Not sure if it’s the same person, but arguably NZ’s best ref is gay, and pretty open about it. From what I understand the players couldn’t give a toss because he’s good at what he does.

So it’s probably easier to be a gay…

A young gay friend of mine this year departed Auckland to go and live with his boyfriend. Who is a referee with a provincial rugby union.

The union's referees section had a social night, wives and partners invited. My young friend came along with his referee boyfriend.…

Also, I was impressed with the integrity of Ian Roberts when he came out some years ago. As one of the biggest-hitting guys in the Aussie…

* To work this out properly you can't simply multiply 0.015 by 30, but should multiply the probability that any given player is straight 30 times, or

p(no gay players) = .985^30
p(at least one gay player) =1-p(no gay players) ~ 0.36

Dude, where were you when I was asking…

As you observe, top class rugby is perhaps not the most accepting environment for a young gay man

Social rugby would be even less accepting.

In his autobiography, Clough recounts a dressing down he gave Fashanu after hearing rumours that he was going to gay bars. "'Where do you go if you want a loaf of bread?' I asked him. 'A baker's, I suppose.'…

Booya

A guy who calls his blog "field theory" is basically saying "Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" to anyone with a penchant for applying mathematics to the real world.

* To work this out properly you can't simply multiply 0.015 by 30, but should multiply the probability that any given player is straight 30 times, or

p(no gay players) = .985^30
p(at least one gay player) =1-p(no gay players) ~ 0.36

Booya!

Maybe we can get some coverage of the Bingham Cup next year

I saw a doco about an Irish rugby team that entered that. The worst scene is when one guy breaks his thigh bone. Sadly it wasn't a great advertisement for gay rugby.

Before the tournament can start they…

I would say that any young gay man coming through the ranks of provincial and professional rugby to get to the All Blacks would have to get through some intense bigotry to get there and remain there.

Which is probably why this exists. Maybe we can get some coverage of…

I'm not sure if your source on 'percentage of gays' is the best Hadyn. Self-recognition from a phone interview? Some won't know that they're gay/bi, and some won't admit it over the phone.

I was going to mention that. Get someone to agree to do a phone interview and then…

The oft-used defence to appear not to be a sexist, bigoted prick by people I've run into is 'well I don't want to risk getting AIDS'.
What's to say your hetrosexual team-mate doesn't have the virus? And with…

As for "Which All Black is gay?" style questions. I find it comes more from folks who don't like…

In other words, why the f**k do we care about the sexuality of a high-profile person? At the lower levels of club rugby…