Let me guess: you spend your day coming up with pub jokes?

The elder of the two Catholics who'd make Paul look like Albert Shweitzer, is a tragic Canadian conflict addicted ex cellphone shop manager with a trophy wife and a penchant for bagging those Chinese .

Being the tomb…

There is a cosy place in hell for those with PhDs who put Doctor on their Koru Club Cards. The purpose of this is to identify MDs for emergencies.

I don't know about that, but my cousin had this come up as her and her partner were the doctors on…

Let me guess: you spend your day coming up with pub jokes?

Ouch. Would only be half a joke though, as Mormon's don't drink.

Badoom, crash (and burn)

NB: For more on this you could refer to 'askamormon.com'.

Now I'm left fuming, staring at my screen in this confounded office I share with two Catholics and a Mormon.

Let me guess: you spend your day coming up with pub jokes?

(Not that I'm volunteering to start writing despatches from my institution, so yeah.)

The NZ art world, like NZ in general, is conformist and conservative. It needs more feuds. It needs some people to shake it up.

I am not a New Zealand artist. I am not going to go into a rant about…

David Cauchi always said he wanted more feuds in the NZ art world; this is a pretty scary foretaste of what that might look like.

I meant feuds between artists and their factions, but I've really enjoyed this.

David Cauchi always said he wanted more feuds in the NZ art world; this is a pretty scary foretaste of what that might look like.

I wonder if he'll be pulling this kind of bs out in the classroom when he hit's the zero mark

but you do not have the faintest idea what you are talking about,

That would certainly make…

Anything that needs to lay claims (to authenticity) has already lost them.

hmm

Like in 'The Island' 2005, when Tom Lincoln and his clone Lincoln Echo Six are both pleading with the gunman Albert Laurent – "I am the real Tom Lincoln!."

You just NEVER let what is 'art 'belong to the speculations,definitions, & – especially- the determinations of a specialist group: people will make up their minds as to what is special, what is powerful, what is overwhelming when it comes to human artefacts-

Nicely put Islander, I only wish when I'd…

Anything that needs to lay claims (to authenticity) has already lost them.

Hmmm...

Any requirement for authenticity is necessarily false.

In Art, or generally?

Is fake art real art until such point as it is discovered to be fake?

Apparently. It happened once in Italy when a group of pranksters revealed they had sculpted and left in a ditch to be 'discovered' three busts subsequently attributed to Amedeo Modigliani. Eminent art historian Giulio Carlo…

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/3654259/The-forger-who-fooled-the-world.html

Regardless of veracity, a great read

According to a contemporary account: "[Göring] looked as if for the first time he had discovered there was evil in the world."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1828&dat=19890409&id=mMcnAAAAIBAJ&sjid=W8AEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2783,4142190

Is fake art real art until such point as it is discovered to be fake?

[Where's he gone? All I see is an empty coat rack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK4jO80rmc0

it seems important to acknowledge when indigenous cultures were in fact victims

Agreed. And the lasting damage it does to their victimisers.

Having now laid all the historical facts before the Person Sitting in…

The standpoint of Art History seems wholly insufficient to properly consider the nuances of these issues, even with regards to Art. Surely the broader aspects relate to Anthropology, Philosophy, Linguistics, Sociology yadda yadda yadda.

I agree Recordari, This from Stanford's Art history dept.

Art History is a historical discipline that…

In this article the author summarises this…

This is my 1000th post to PAS.

So that's what the party is about?

I think I cracked 2000 posts before ever meeting a PASer ITF. I would not recommend this.

In Europe the phone book has everyones profession in it, as a title

Ah yes, that European phone book. I remember it well. It came in 87 leatherbound volumes for each household.

It is nothing personal, Chris, but you do not have the faintest idea what you are talking about, as that Wikipedia piece you posted shows.

I don't know I just thought;

1. "Spirit Resonance," or vitality, and seems to translate to the nervous energy transmitted from the artist into the…

Paul, once Aristocrats had to start to work to live, they rallied to Universities by virtue of their education and became the gate keepers.

Being Jewish and an Aristocrat are not mutually exclusive.

I really dont agree with you in so many areas – but I do appreciate your stance, posts, staunchness in matters that I think truly unreal-according-to-general human understanding- as evidence of a scholar
who is determined. One way or the other.

You do well.

Academia became a refuge for many defunct aristorcrats.

But they told us that academia was a vast Jewish conspiracy. Anyway, how can one be a defunct aristocrat? It is not as if aristocrats stopped working – they never started.

This is my 1000th post to PAS.

It is better to die knowing you are a fool than to live thinking you are a genius.

Confucius probably said.

I imagine I'll do both.

In Europe the phone book has everyones profession in it, as a title

I beg your pardon?

In Europe the phone book has everyones profession in it, as a title. Academia became a refuge for many defunct aristorcrats.

Er, really? because in Germany (...) it's a convention to call yourself Dr X in pretty much every situation.

Germany has the highest ratio of James Bond villains per head of population than any other country, yes.

There is a cosy place in hell for those with PhDs who put Doctor on their Koru Club Cards. The purpose of this is to identify MDs for emergencies.

Er, really? because in Germany (& quite a few other countries) it's a convention to call yourself Dr X in pretty much…

Confucius probably said.

There is a cosy place in hell for those with PhDs who put Doctor on their Koru Club Cards. The purpose of this is to identify MDs for emergencies.

More rampant anti-intellectualism. It may well be that the relentless drone of a fully-qualified monument to intellectual vanity can dislodge the…

/gasps sees nub/

Anyone remember recovered memory syndrome?
Homosexuality as a mental illness?
The whole Eugenics movement?
Chicargo School of Economics?
Any MBA (mediocre but arrogant)?

There is a cosy place in hell for those with PhDs who put Doctor on their Koru Club Cards. The purpose…

the art history departments don't teach what I think is art, so they must be wrong. Protip: perhaps they know what they are talking about, perhaps you are wrong; and perhaps your 'strong sense' about my learning is just your blind prejudice.

It's nothing Personal Paul, although you will find…

My Little Zombie Pony:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/youngsong/2747267493/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qycQVQEWpqQ

Yay for ponies
(had to write it somewhere)

This being PAS & all, how many pages do you think it'll run to before we get to Schrödinger's pony?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUQcCvX2MKk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpNIwx32F30&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTzXJMU1sLc&NR=1

(had to write it somewhere)

does Art History Man have a cool costume?

I bet it includes jackboots!
.
.
.
.
I'll get me coat.

And was hoping y'all would fight a duel. I don't think there has been a PAS duel yet.

Quills and inkpots at dawn perhaps?

it is time to move on.

It was time to move on pages ago

Apologies for not leaving the conversation once and for all when I said I would, and clearly should have.

NOOOOO! Don't go! I'm really enjoying this. Do you know how few articulate and heated arguments about…

Happy Easter

Indeed. The whanau and I just consumed abundant mericonda, which is always a source of peace and joy.

Apologies for not leaving the conversation once and for all when I said I would, and clearly should have.

Happy Easter, for what it's worth.

Of course there is a big picture and I have been presenting it. Art is…

Paul this may be of interest;

The Six principles of Chinese painting were established by Xie He(also known as Hsieh Ho), a writer, art historian and critic in 6th century China. He is most famous for his "Six points to consider when judging…

Jesus Christ.

Crucifixion?
Yes.
One cross each, first door on the right. Next.

Sacha, I ran out of steam for Twitter. Or it ran out of steam for me. Kind of nearly gave up here too, again. Increasingly apparent why.

It was not meant for anything except (it seems) to be in a grave – to be beautiful, to be for the delectation of the dead.

Yes and no. They are very beautiful – Mum just confirmed to me there are some ombre della sera painted on the walls of…

By…

does Art History Man have a cool costume?

Bet he wears his undies on the outside

You have not read Boardman; you attempted to deceive me and the readers of this thread. I called you on that. You are a fraud.

Jesus Christ.

No-one's come out of this very well. It's been very funny but.

And those Marian Maguire prints are horrible.

You have not read Boardman; you attempted to deceive me and the readers of this thread. I called you on that. You are a fraud.

Jesus Christ.

So I'm going to go with "bollocks yourself". Perhaps your idea is so powerful that it doesn't need talking about.

Act party policy? See the difference is, we cretins read Gio and feel like he is willing to accept our perspective, in spite of our failings, whereas with Paul, not…

Perhaps your idea is so powerful that it doesn't need talking about.

Roflnui

When I quote John Boardman, top Greek art history man, saying the Greeks had no concept of art as we understand it, Giovanni says I have misinterpreted Boardman. When I ask Giovanni to show where Boardman supports his argument, he falls silent.

I dispute that the quotes you offered mean…

Love Marian Maguire's work. Herakles was the subject of an excellent review by Adam Gifford on the Herald.

Thanks Gio.

Yeah, thanks again.

I am sure you would have found a way.

Hardly, for the simple fact that I agree with it.

But all the people who study non-Western material culture – anthropologists and the like – are united in saying that the traditional cultural practices of non-Western peoples cannot be described as…

Really? I mean, come on. This is just mindlessly stupid, up there with telling someone who studied at the Courtauld that they don't know art history.

Well, if you say so. My point is if I have to read Boredman in order to participate in discussions here that start with…

Strikes me as intellectual self-gratification at first glance, but then someone has to do it, I suppose.

Really? I mean, come on. This is just mindlessly stupid, up there with telling someone who studied at the Courtauld that they don't know art history.

Love Marian Maguire's work. Herakles was the subject of an excellent review by Adam Gifford on the Herald.

Thanks Gio. Remember reading that around the time. Quite tempted, but in the end got a Liam Barr print instead. Another artist playing with our cultural heritage and modern symbolism. Amazing richness…

Social standing is important, since it indicates the value given to the painter's livelyhood. Little is known of Exekias, but there is a legend that he was a slave.

Transactional value and social standing as aesthetic constructs? Sorry, I may be misinterpreting.

Having read one page, and a few other…

...an influential study by the historian of philosophy Paul Kristeller, in which he argued that the modern system of the five major arts [painting, sculpture, architecture, poetry, and music]…

Another is to claim that they didn't appreciate the beauty of their own works, or that they didn't know they were making objects of beauty.

I have not made this claim.

You have in fact made it several times. Which is why a dozen or so people have taken issue…

Resonates with me.

It doesn't have much to do with the question of the definition of art, beyond the obvious fact that Boardman is using `artist' to refer to Exekias.

Probably the most rewarding field for study now that the master of attribution has gone is the definition of the painters as artist in the fuller sense of…

The Marcia Blaine School for Girls, in Miss Jean Brodie's class.

So who is Miss Jean Brodie?

Yet you can 'sense' that Giovanni is right and I am wrong.

Umm, slight twist of of my intentions there, as usual. I sense Giovanni gets that he may be right or wrong, or that there is more to know, or that might be known through discussion, whereas your tone…

Giovanni wrote "Artists throughout history..." – a much broader statement, and not to be dismissed by your Western European viewpoint.

It's not the debate, it's how we're debating.

For what it's worth, I think it's both. One thing is to say that for instance that the ancient Greeks didn't make a distinction between artists and craftsmen, therefore art and crafts, at least not in a sense that would be intelligible…

Hey hey, my my, Rock 'n' Roll will never die. I am offering you these articles because they are important. Perhaps you might read them.

It's not the debate, it's how we're debating. No one, that I'm aware of, elected you, or Giovanni for that matter, but I sense he…

Philosopher…

But – while you throw out terms like 'essentialism", and…

And whoa, there are several articles referred to, that were written by Maori.

Who the fuck cares about a one-upmanship creature (Potter) in matters of record & fact? Seriously Paul Litterick – you havent offered…

I admit to many failings and I acknowledge that Dottore Tiso has many strengths, but I am the Art History man.

Okay, point of order, Mr Speaker. We had a couple of discussions on this very forum about what constitutes genre in literature. I would like to register that not…

Paul can say whatever he likes about me, but it is ill-advised to tar Giovanni with the same brush.

Alright, then I will: you are an idiot (1).

(1) Giovanni Tiso's PhD is in English Literature; his thesis title is Impossile Recollections: The Troubled Imaginary of Mediated Memory. I am working…

In a purely academic setting, your conventional…

And Sacha, if you are going to be as petty as to note who has a doctorate, the convention is to say…

Me, I've said all I need to and readers can decide if it was relevant or otherwise. Wasn't this thread meant to be about a certain proposed public sculpture?

Sissons, Jeffrey. "The systematisation of tradition: Maori culture as a strategic resource." Oceania 64.2 (1993)

Sissons, Jeffrey. "The traditionalisation of the Maori meeting house." Oceania 69.1 (1998)

Yet another pesky academic blowing away the mists of tradition and, like, speaking truth…

"It matters nothing to you that academics do not support your view," – you're not wrong there.

It is not me who is making the construct – I am saying…

Being told that I have failed "to fit other people's understanding inside your own model" is galling

You will insist on reading the opposite of what I write, Paul – in this instance, not that you have 'failed' but that you have succeeded all too well. Worse, that you even…

Have you ever gone into Te Takiroa? Seen the art, called into the walls, heard them call back?

No. How would that make a difference. Being a wanker academic, and an outsider to boot, you would hardly expect me to be able to respond to such a call, would you?

Suggested…

The multiple troubles of man,
my brother, like slander and pain,
amaze you? Consider the heart
which holds them all
in strangeness, and doesn’t break.

Shmuel HaNagid

You will note, in the ancient history ( c. 2000BPE)written in the world so far- Chinese, Egyptian, Etruscan, Greek & Roman artists do get mentioned. Art critcs/historians dont.

Sacha has written exactly what a lot of us humble…

Nastier still, though, is Sacha's attempt to portray me as…

Paul, might be discipline-related. Your arguments in favour of epistemic rupture in the Enlightenment leading to revolutionary change were very common in, say, English literary history about 15-20 years ago.

A beautifully written post Caleb, as relevant to 'The Enlightenment' as 'The Renaissance' or any of the other renaissances. Although…

(For non-speakers of Italian: this statue by Damien Hirst will grace the waterfront of the principality of Monaco.)

Giovanni, you have flounced from this thread twice. I hope you have come back with some evidence this time.

If your thinking is representative of your department's or your faculty's

I wouldn't worry about that to be honest.

All societies do not have practices that perform similar functions.

Yeah, those brown folk are just not quite human are they Paul. Just listen to yourself, you pompous oaf.

Inclusiveness is hardly narrow. People do understand one another, and art is part of that process of exchanging and negotiating meaning…

Defining art is simple:

Art is the worship of error.

Heh. I thought that was religion :)

That is the art practice we have today and which has been adopted world-wide: artists work freely, selling their works through dealers, works which are bought by public museums and private collectors.

Not true. The obvious counter-example is that many artists are dependent on patronage by the State: they get…

...art is a comparatively recent invention, one of the Enlightenment....

sounds awfully like "... gravity is a comparatively recent invention, one of the Enlightenment." Cos before Newton, things just drifted about...

Awe.

It has worked for the last two hundred years. That is Shiner's point: art is a comparatively recent invention, one of the Enlightenment.... I am saying that art is an invention of the monolithic West that has become global.

Some of the reasons people might be frustrated with your arguments,…

Calling things 'art' when they were not made as works of art is an unwitting form of cultural appropriation

When the university has a specialised department of Taonga Studies (or more accurately, Toi studies), let's revisit your argument.

Until then, it's just perverse when all societies have practices that perform…

... is that pasta with a meaty sauce? is that what you had for tea?

much like their insect-collecting brethren pillaging the globe to fill the fine museums of the empire.

I think you need to clarify that it wasn't art until it crossed into Europe's 200 mile zone. "Shit wot people made" up until then.

Later, foodcourts developed..

"You call that dinner?"

"That's not dinner. That's some seaweed wrapped around rice and fish. The Japanese only learnt that this was called dinner once Westerners arrived. They had no concept of the "dinner" until this time."

:)

Aesthetics encompass utility: there is no exclusion.

Indeed- in so many ways. The notion that art is 'useless' – which sprang from the same 'art-for-art's-sake' romantic movement- is another nonsense artists didn't have to deal with before that time.
That whole romantic ideal of the artist as a maverick genius…

But, since we have both signed up to the Institutional Theory (however differently we interpret it) we should look at the practice of the institutions; and there we find that the distinction between art and craft is made. Art galleries exhibit art and crafts are often displayed in specialist…

Aesthetics encompass utility: there is no exclusion. I have yet to see an example Paul Litterick has given that doesnt have some utility (like earning $$$ for instance.)

I have on my iPod Kim Hill's 2008 interview with Max Gimblett – Kim noted that Max, not a particularly acquisitive person,…

...to represent the NZ massive

I think Chris was meaning the land, but misspelt massif : noun; a compact group of mountains, esp. one that is separate from other groups...
– which is a pretty nifty way of describing NZ (and the rugger statue) – I liked it!

...so Chris,…

That sword might be art if it were in a gallery in Europe.

Context, done long ago

But waua! The swords they had there! My…

The bush is ongrowing ever bush: the sea is its ever-rolling self- the animals come & go-

Yeah it is, mawhawhahwaaa ;-)

I have been arguing that 'art' is a term given to particular practices that originated in Europe but are now found world-wide, practices not just of creation but also of display, exchange and collecting.

Paul is quite right. Although the Chinese developed silk fabric in 3500BC and although In ancient…

I mean, it does get in...

O Steve – cant offer you a traditional wooden spoon,…

I am off to dinner with a conceptual artist,

I can imagine it...
"You call that dinner?"

Do I tell you often enough that I love you, I wonder?

Sometimes he looks right through me... as if I wasn't there...
sniff.

and Gio in a comfortable last place, which in postmodernist terms, means Gio is in the lead.

Do I tell you often enough that I love you, I wonder?

just to be picky; ta moko is permanent.

Cosmetic surgery if done well is invisible, the status of this is in the ideal of eternal youth or some far off notion of perfection. (eeee...)

Ta moko is on your…

Suffice it to briefly reply to you Paul Litterick, that
a)while moko certainly had *elements* of status and identification
(the quality of your tattoo would…