Now a manatee would be a different proposition.

Indeed. You could combine it with lettering and a sculpture to recreate this famous scene.

How about a holographic weta then?

With a tourist in its jaws. If it can be climbing the sky-tower, too, please. Symbolism isn't always cheap :)

How about a holographic weta then?

NO!

How about a holographic weta then?

Well if you're going to go digital, you might as well try and have it crawling across the hillside. That would be a cool introduction to Wellington/NZ.

Argonath gates from Lord of the Rings flanking the cutting

I'm guessing they cost a lot more irl than they do when you make them inside a computer.

"It's airport land and airport money."

Somebody was researching whether that land was acquired under the Public Works Act. It could be argued that promotional signage is not an essential aviation land use and consequently, the land should be offered back to the original owners.

Cook Straight Giant Weta?

Because a Gay Giant Weta wouldn't fit with Avatar?

I suppose it could be worse. We could go Otorohanga's way.

But then I'm quite a fan of Rakaia's giant salmon (scroll to the bottom of the page).

Even though the most obvious better alternative is the hill with the trees

While I'm not a fan of the Wellywood proposal, I think it's probably worth pointing out that the "trees" on the hill are basically gorse scrub and a few pines. That hill's an interesting place for a…

He did not know when a decision would be made, but said it was ultimately up to the airport. "It's airport land and airport money."

Gee, it would be terrible if the…

They watched the hump-in-the-sleeping-bag move upwards...the bloke bailed immediately, and the friend whizzed her side-zip down "so fast the metal scorched": a very large weta strolled away into the night.

Those stubborn bed wetas are a problem...
... I hear Wellington is full of them...
;- )

so... unless somebody…

So... unless somebody comes up with a better alternative, Wellywood stays. Even though the most obvious better alternative is the hill with the trees. So much for a backdown.

That's what I thought. How about ... I dunno ... nothing.

Weta aside, all that has been proposed makes Wellywood seem like a stroke of genius.

Other alternatives included Wellington, Miramar, or…

Mind you a straight weta sounds...cool! All the bendy bits taken out-
the antenae & leglengths would be spectacular!

* I have…

I vote for the Cook Straight Giant Weta. Because they are excellent.

Don’t worry. When I rule the world, I’ll ban all absolutism.

It's Friday, so sue me...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq-jANkqpQo

What is ultimately rational or reasonable about an argument that can never end, never be resolved, never come to any conclusion, never come up with any new points? It's actually more reasonable to accept the subjective nature of the subject matter, and move on.

In the wider sense of discourse…

Let's just call it out. Let's have a public discussion. That's what movies are supposed to do, you know. You can have a mindless entertainment film that doesn't affect anybody. I wasn't interested in that.

Danielle and the baby are back home today.

Phew. We seem to be on the brink of an established gender bias, at least on this thread. Thank god (choose one, I'm not fussed) for Hilary, or our intersubjectivity would be the least of our worries.

I'm guessing we're only a…

Wonder how baby and co are doing?

Danielle and the baby are back home today.

Carry on.

Wonder how baby and co are doing?

And no, my imagination is not capable of A Stanley Kubrick Avatar. It's not even 4pm yet.

Singing in the rain,
I'm just singing in the rain,
what a glorious feeling...

aaah the soundtrack to A Clockwork Orange
Imagine Avatar by Stanley Kubrick...

The classic definition of knowledge requires that the point be true and believed, but also justified . So guessing doesn't fit. If someone guessed that Existentialism would be useful to you, did they really know?

Singing in the rain,
I'm just singing in the rain,
what a glorious feeling...

Elaboration, if you don't mind.

The classic definition of knowledge requires that the point be true and believed, but also justified . So guessing doesn't fit. If someone guessed that Existentialism would be useful to you, did they really know?

I've been timing how long it would take to get…

'Avatar' is just a bit of fun

And we're back, baby! I've been timing how long it would take to get back to Avatar.

And is guessing right really knowledge?

Elaboration, if you don't mind.

Who knew it would come in handy?

And is guessing right really knowledge? Absolutists probably think so.

Must read me some Husserl. It seems highly likely I've been influenced by him far more than I've ever known.

Yes, sometimes it takes a while for the paths of yore to dredge themselves from the depths of memory. Stage two Existentialism and Phenomenology. Who knew it would come in…

Within the confines of science, this mentality is acceptable and it is indeed the procedure of science, whose essential goal is to prove whether a given situation is true or false. But when such impositional, absolutist and logocentric attitudes are…

a series of contingent truths in constant negotiation with one another

Likes

You seem to be suggesting that only by taking an absolutist position on, say, moral matters can we act with more humanity.

Eh? Can't see how you made that link. I was decrying both unfettered absolutism and relativism in favour of a more shades-of-grey approach — which to me seems…

Either way, I'm agin it, just so as we're clear on that.

Black-or-whiters being absolutist about relativism is mighty tedious many decades after the death of unchallenged modernism. Considerably more sophistication (and humanity) shown elsewhere here than either end of that old spectrum.

There's an implication here I've been chewing over. You seem to be suggesting that only by taking an absolutist…

But (as you admit) the fastest car in the context given is.

Serious question: can something really be called an objective fact when you've had to define it by hedging it around with a whole bunch of subjective/arbitrary rules and definitions?

No, actually, don't.

People can judge for themselves, but “of course everything in them boils down to subjective opinion” doesn’t seem that far from “it’s all just opinion” to me. My summary was (obviously) a little flippant, but not unfair.

It's not that far, but it's also not the same. Boiling down is…

That would be because I am.

Yes but you have to say so that it gets through my dense head. You referred mockingly to "the Truth" before. I just wanted to be clear you were saying you disagreed with positions such as Rich's on fascism (namely that it is clear…

But (as you admit) the fastest car in the context given is.

Well no, because car is itself a subjective term. That object mightn't be a car.

...examining those thing that are [objective], and the relationship between them and the things that are not, might tell us more about the latter, and therefore about the nature of quality in art.

Well said.

__Call it what you like, but which car is fastest in the context given is…

Yes, but can you see how what you just said looks a lot like you are making an objective assessment about issues that relate to what is the truth?

That would be because I am.

...do 9/11 "truthers" have an equally valid view of those events as you and I?

No. And the reason why they don't is that their appeal is bogus and their arguments dishonest. This can be exposed relatively simply.

Yes, but can you see how what you just said looks a…

Otherwise the bulk of the dosh and minerals
will go offshore, business as usual...

Precisely. It could be a much bigger issue than the actual mining itself if NZ sees little of the profits. At least in Aussie the mining co's seem to be largely Aussie-controlled.

Anyone here of Scots descent and knows the other meaning of 'jobs"?…

Apparently all this mining is so we (the country?) can make more money – are we
starting a state owned mining company?
Otherwise the bulk of…

and illegal things legal,

As Brownlee just announced with regard to Schedule 4 conservation land around the country. :(

Sure, but that doesn't stop us putting a time period around our "fastest drag car" fact.

But it does mean that the idea of `drag car' changes over time and place based on subjective issues. Hardly a rock solid objective fact now.

Anybody ever been given a decent answer as to why double-belt safety-harnesses for drivers (i.e the kind pilots and racing-car drivers wear) are not allowed in yer average vehicle?

My guess is for the same reason that crash helmets are not allowed, nor roll cages. They might encourage dangerous driving.…

It is if has been defined in advance, although practically it will still need to be actually evaluated by some human judge, so accusations of bias can still creep in.

& in practice rules change over time, and things which were legal become illegal, and illegal things legal, based essentially on…

rather that examining those thing that are, and the relationship between them and the things that are not, might tell us more about the latter, and therefore about the nature of quality in art.

It seemed like a promising approach. I'm kind of regretting saying anything on the subject…

Call it what you like, but which car is fastest in the context given is an objective truth.

But what is a legal car to use in a drag race? That's hardly objective.

I think that an objective falsehood: it is believed to be objectively true, but is not.

For everybody but the atheists, though, every other religion is a subjective falsehood. And I don't need to tell you that the persecution of those falsehoods is responsible for a war or five.

I think that an objective falsehood: it is believed to be objectively true, but is not. Mind you, I am no theologian.

Subjective falsehoods: you never hear much about them.

Er... really? Quite the contrary, it seems to me.

But, so long as the rules were set, and followed, and the process agreed by which to establish a winner, then yes, a winner can be found.

If you can't agree on any of these things, then you have an analogy with our discussion on the merit of Avatar and…

Instead we have to deal with a vast interconnected web of subjective truths (was this what Gio meant by 'Intersubjective'?).

Yes. Alternatively, I threw it out there hoping that somebody would come up with a good definition.

Of corse once you form that model of how knowledge is reached -…

The question, IIRC, was about which was the best of two cars (for a defined purpose). Surely, if you eliminate (or match) all the identifiable variables, then you can say, with a fair degree of accuracy, which one is the best for the job.

If the defined purpose is very…

I do like that life insurance is advertised at the bottom of that page.:)

Caterham Life is a magazine to do with the car. Caterham Insurance is car insurance. Two separate adverts.

A couple of mates of mine have just bought a Caterham.

I do like that life insurance is advertised at the bottom of that page.:)

Watched Top Gear last night then?

Of course.No matter how sick one is,one can get out of bed for Top Gear, even if one don't have to get out of bed. That car knocks your socks off!

Except that we don't, in good conscience, compare two things by deliberately skewing the variables; quite the reverse.

Indeed. I was just saying that there's an unspoken variable that wasn't being mentioned – the driver. That's not to say that you couldn't make some kind of absolute comparison about the…

Presumably the driver's skills make a difference in how fast the car can go,

Why yes Jack, yes it does, and if it was a Noble? well....

Dairy me...

Excellent :)
Re cycling
no pun left behind,
What can pun do with the "hey zeus on a stick"?

Call it what you like, but which car is fastest in the context given is an objective truth.

Is it, though? It's not like the cars are piloting themselves. You're conveniently eliding the subjective element: that each car is being driven by someone. Without a driver, the car is just…

Hey Ian! Sofie already got in with the little Baby Cheezus...

What! You mean that "Vegemite" smear back in June? (to which I responded with something about "Marmitetreya and Cheeses on the Cross")...
:- )
I believe the Son of Gouda I was alluding to
with my Puckish…

Well, I had in mind comments such as:
>...everything in them boils down to subjective opinion of artistic worth.

Trying to drag me back into it?

Best not lift it out of context or turn it into a straw man then. You're most likely aware that my position on truth…

"well it's all just opinion in the end".

I don't think anyone actually claimed that, did they?

Well, I had in mind comments such as:

...everything in them boils down to subjective opinion of artistic worth.

Ha. No, in fact, it doesn't. That's not what drag racing is; drag racing is about which car can go fastest while satisfying an essentially subjective and arbitrary set of rules.

What, like, which car is fastest in a straight line, over a comparatively short distance? Call it what you…

I don't think "well it's all just opinion in the end" is such a clever answer.

Unless it was during one of the bits where my eyes glazed over, I don't think anyone actually claimed that, did they?

Well, sure, but can people realise that just because one challenges a position, that doesn't necessarily mean that one is advocating for its opposite?

Heh. Yeah, I am against absolutist stances (such as fascism, Christian fundamentalism, Muslim fundamentalism), but reactions such as Sacha's are common.

In fact isn't that generally…

Pretty much describes the doctrine of libertarianism, too?

I don't know about libertarianism, but certainly one of the reasons why I think studying and talking about epistemology is far from boring or pointless or idiotic or insufficiently humane – as it has been variously suggested on this thread – is…

if you don't listen to their alternative points of view it means you don't believe in an open society and the free pursuit of knowledge, but then quickly it becomes apparent that they are predicated on the absolute denial of every other possible explanation or interpretation

Pretty much describes the…

this thread veered into such a yawnfest

Yes, it has got rather dahl recently.

Ahahahaha. Gosh I'm funny.

I would have though all this curry talk would have 'spiced' things up for you. Ohhhh, stop it, my sides!

Black-or-whiters being absolutist about relativism is mighty tedious many decades after the death of unchallenged modernism.

Well, sure, but can people realise that just because one challenges a position, that doesn't necessarily mean that one is advocating for its opposite?

There is a sadly high number of addicts – alcohol/E/other- within North Otago. They're useless wee shits – but – and seriously – what can you do with them?

Oamaru is of course renowned for its Panadol
bludgers and other fine home-baking...
:- )…

There's no such consensus about movies – which I believe is what was being discussed before this thread veered into such a yawnfest.

Black-or-whiters being absolutist…

Also, it still seems to me your and Gio’s response (“Except for the very small detail that Fascism is predicated exactly on forbidding whole categories of people to have a say on what's right and wrong”) to 3410’s point amounts to an objective point against fascism.

Yup. And that's very…

Clearly it's a subjective value that Fascism = bad (mmmkay?).

I don’t think it is clear that such a judgment is purely subjective. I’m not sure it makes sense to point out the mass of argument and evidence against fascism if you then still conclude that is only subjectively wrong.…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2AhVRiZ3N0

All I can say about some aspects of border control (how can any of 'em be alllowed to *touch* The Frog?) is – it's profoundly erratic-

ohhh,…

Only sign an explosives document to chillies? You lucky bugger. I had to be fingerprinted…

There is a sadly high number of addicts -…

(You also have to sign the receipt.)

ubjective value that Fascism = bad (mmmkay?).

But as a society we did arrive at that subjective value by consensus, by way of vigourous debate and large-scale field-testing in the mid-20th Century.

Tangentially, It was mentioned twice on Emma's thread that New Zealanders need to produce identification to buy panadol…

Although perhaps the key difference is that the fascists wouldn't allow the debate to take place.

And they’d be wrong to do so? You seem to be saying that it is objectively true that the fascists are wrong

No. Clearly it's a subjective value that Fascism = bad (mmmkay?).

But…

Although perhaps the key difference is that the fascists wouldn't allow the debate to take place.

And they’d be wrong to do so? You seem to be saying that it is objectively true that the fascists are wrong

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm taking the piss. I'm really…

It's always fun to drop in and sneer at the people who have an interest in these kinds of discussion, though, no?

Oh that wasn't a sneer. :P

If you're now wondering if you took one of my classes: I'm the one with the beard, if that helps.

Ah no,…

"There's got to be more to life than fighting for fish heads!"

Seeing it's Friday...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTpUVAcvWfU

the extended art cinema version
– music kicks in at about 2 minutes

in a different universe we could have had
The Flight of the Conger Eels...

You can almost forgive him for discovering fucking Dire Straits..almost, but not quite...

I was gonna say that
– I just thought it was too soon...
But I guess there are some crimes against
humanity you can never escape from...
:- )

Luckily we still have Trevor Reekie doing sterling…

BBC DJ Charlie Gillett too...

man, that's distressing, The Sound of the City was a life changer for me, a massive eye opener. Before I found that book as an early teen I simply had no idea about that exactly where that noise I was devouring came from. They didn't…

. . . some spindly ol' pinion gear with the great grinding flywheel feathering one's flights of imagination . . .

"There's got to be more to life than fighting for fish heads!"
Richard Bach, J L Seagull

I'm the one with the beard, if that helps.

Yeah, that narrows it down. ;)

...

Children by the million
scream for Alex Chilton.

1987
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTSJYZyouek

Phil 101.... Happily never took it again.

Disclaimer: I tutored both PHIL 101 and PHIL 106 at Vic in the late 90s. Then I realised that the career opportunities for a professional ethicist are extremely limited. Much less a professional meta-ethicist.

If you're now wondering if you took one of…

THE RIGHT WORD
When you give your opinion on something, you offer a conclusion or a judgment that, although it may be open to question, seems true or probable to you at the time __(she was known for her strong opinions…

RIP and thanks for the music.

September Gurls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNKSs1J38EA

Blue Moon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwxjt144-QI

I mean, you're calling for different treatment of the two situations. I'm asking, what is the basis for the difference? (Don't just say "different context"; I mean the actual basis).

I don't think I can answer that.

In my opinion, different circumstances call for a different approach. How differnet the…

No, but aren't you then saying that if my opinion being contrary to the consensus means nothing, then so does everyone else's opinion mean nothing, therefore even consensus (the balance of a group of opinions) also means "nothing"?

Yes and no. Things only have the meaning we ascribe to them.…

It's like a thread taken over by a PHIL 101 tutorial group out of control.

Stand still and put your hands in the air! This is a threadjacking! We're taking this thread to CUBA! Erm, I mean, ENLIGHTENMENT!

Anyway, I'm only here for the argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

Trace Hodgson

was there ever a book of that ongoing, deeply strange, strip he had in the Listener? I loved that...

Apart from Shafts of Strife (thanks Stephen Judd) there was The Television, which kind of faded out after a promising start. When he was on form, which was most…

Happily never took it again.

I envy you. It took me about 6 years to realize there was no point. And I still can't prove it.

No point? It's early days yet. We're only on p19. I'm sure we'll get this objective v subjective value thing nutted out one of these days ...

It's always fun to drop in and sneer at the people who have an interest in these kinds of discussion, though, no?

it was all going to be silly discussions with no point

No point? It's early days yet. We're only on p19. I'm sure we'll get this objective v subjective value thing nutted out one of these days ...

I assume this is a compliment.

Umm, yup sure, OK.

I quite enjoyed PHIL 101 in my first year, until I realised halfway through that (for me) that it was all going to be silly discussions with no point. Happily never took it again.

God yes that blew my teenaged mind. The one with the alien? Enjoy.

Wahoo!! thanks for this, Mr Judd & Mr Langridge...
...and Mr Hodgson too, natch!!

was there ever a book of that ongoing, deeply strange, strip he had in the Listener? I loved that...

God yes that blew my teenaged mind. The one with the alien? Enjoy.

(I love the incredibly detailed renderings of the backgrounds).

Let's tie it all in together by saying that from the point of view of a baby, a good book tastes interesting and doesn't give you papercuts on your tongue. A secondary consideration might be…

The review, professional or amateur, shouldn’t go extinct. But we also benefit from ambitious critical essays, pieces that illuminate movies through analysis and interpretation. Web critics could write less often, but longer. In an era of slow food, let’s try slow…

Um, quite a big babe....

Makes me feel all warm and happy (although not as happy…

That 'deeply strange' strip of Trace Hodgson's (I kept all the pages) should…

Trace Hodgson

was there ever a book of that ongoing, deeply strange, strip he had in the Listener? I loved that...
I know there was Dismembered featuring some of his Political Cartoons from the Listener
and Awesome Aotearoa with Margaret Mahy...
I read somewhere he did all his panels huge…

"The Listener" had an unfortunately long record of doing that Giovanni: I remember when they decided to ditch Trace Hodgson (one of my favourite cartoonists) with a snide ,IIRC, comment that they didnt think he fitted the new look magazine.

But that was at least a comment. I'm pretty sure…

I was so happy to stop subscribing to the thing-it-had-become...

Do they have surprising outbursts of emotion there too?

Well, one that I attended nearly all died laughing about how stupid what we were discussing had got. Gabriel White was the culprit "Hmmm, I don't know, I've played some pretty damned competitive doll's games in my time". Funny bloke, just…

It was a good gig but sadly I had a whole bunch of reasons for going

As a (then) loyal reader, I found it appalling that when you, Russell and a bunch of others went, there wasn't a word about it in the magazine – not a thank you, not…

That's obviously where I want a critic, and not a general punter.

I like that kind of critic, the one who talks to 'who this will appeal to, and why'. They're very useful, much more so than one who dismissed a horror film I had nearly died of fright in…

It's like a thread taken over by a PHIL 101 tutorial group out of control.

I assume this is a compliment.

What does sophistication mean in this context? I take it as meaning a more developed ability to discern artistic quality, based largely on training and experience. Your implication is that some tastes are more sophisticated than others.

That one is not particularly hard to answer. Discernment is simply learning to…

EDIT: I hope it doesn't sound like I'm taking the piss. I'm really pleased you remember what I did there. It was a good gig but sadly I had a whole bunch of reasons for going.