Dear Doug,

I agree with the standard email drafted by…

I observed some of the "anti B-B" people returing up Lambton Quay after the march and was particularly taken with the placards which read "resonable force is reasonable"/quote>

so taken with it that I got off my arse and went to the the repealsection59 website and made a submission to…

ok this is a cheap shot but is there a "c" missing from Larry's surname' then we could have Bald C and Missing T.

Imagine this. A dork from marketing school…

I observed some of the "anti B-B" people returing up Lambton Quay after the march and was particularly taken with the placards which read "resonable force is reasonable"

attempted thunder stealing:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0703/S00378.htm
Celebrities palm-print banner supporting bill. Former mother of nation included. Also Deborah Coddington. Gosh.

gosh, why they're fundamentalist androcentric 'right-to-lifers', well blow me down.

Family First isn't quite so (obviously) innocent though, check out their principles of the family. Points…

I don't think I saw a single 'pro-Bradford bill' marcher that was old enough to have children.

Someone from the 'anti-Bradford bill' brigade was too busy booing the government to notice that their infant had crawled into the middle of Parliaments…

UNICEF New Zealand, Save the Children, Barnardos NZ, Royal Plunket Society, Office of the Children's Commissioner, Families Commission, Jigsaw – Child Abuse Prevention (representing 14 member organisations), IHC, Amokura Family…

i haven't looked for who was the mistake...

1. Family First NZ (Inc) 2. Sensible Sentencing Trust 3. For the Sake of our Children Trust 4. Grey Power 5. Te Whanau O Waipareira Trust 6.…

Have you seen the site that they link to?

.solopassion.com

Now there is a link you would think twice about clicking in work.

Love the pics as…

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/03/march_against_smacking_ban_bil.html

What fun!

And no, Helen Clark never plays politics when she gets dragged into a debate. She's a 100% straight shooter that one, honest.

Meanwhile at Kiwiblog HQ...
Sulu: Captain Farrar, there's been a HUGE disturbance in the right space continuum.
Captain: What! We'd better gather some curious figures and nifty headlines,…

it has always been a crime to smack a child and carries a maximum sentence of 2yrs jail. as it stands you can also be sentenced for kidnapping for sending a kid to their room -…

That may be the argument you are making, but its certainly not what either Bradford or Clark are telling the public:

"But today she said her stance had not changed. [PM Helen Clark] still did not support a smacking ban and did not believe that was what Ms Bradford's bill…

i'm pretty sure these pamphlets (or a summary of them) came home with my daughter from primary school last year, and are being distributed by various agencies. i know plenty…

UNICEF New Zealand, Save the Children, Barnardos NZ, Royal Plunket Society, Office of the Children's Commissioner, Families Commission, Jigsaw – Child Abuse Prevention (representing 14 member organisations), IHC, Amokura Family Violence Prevention (representing 7 iwi Chief Executives), Churches Agency on…

Public education
We recommend that if the bill is enacted the appropriate agencies
should conduct public awareness and education campaigns ...

Kate has a very good point. There are obviously a lot of bad parents out there – parents that don't care about or even don't want their children. Removing the 'reasonable' defence is not going to turn these parents into loving models of parenthood.

I think people are making the…

So if we conclude that children have the right not to be hit, then hitting children is not a right extended to anyone through belief or religion.

True.…

until s59 is amended, pursuing the softer (although likely more effective) measures you describe will be a little absurd when the 'reasonable force' defence remains

Why would that be absurd? Is it absurd to tell people not to blow smoke near their infant child's face? Being sensible is not absurd…

Kyle, what I am saying is that the special obligations inherent in the parent/child relationship require special treatment in law.

But there's no requirement that the special obligations in the relationship be applied to the area of smacking/assault. Indeed parents have certain laws that only apply to them because they…

The need for a bill like the anti-smaking one to be passed has undoubtedly arisen largely from NZ's high rate of Child abuse.

There is no denying we have a problem…

It's a bill before parliament, so its the government doing the telling. There are lots of laws on the books telling people who to, or how not to, raise their children. This is nothing new.

Kyle, what I am saying is that the special obligations inherent in the parent/child relationship…

Another way to frame the debate would be to ask whether people who believe smacking is wrong can tell everyone else how to raise their children. The relationship between parent and child is sui generis IMO.

Well clearly there are things society, as represented by government, can tell people to…

Weston, does that sound ridiculous to you? Hyperbole perhaps? Go back 150 years in time and follow that debate.

Yes, but 150 years into the future, dairy products will be outlawed as the bovine holocaust they clearly are.

I know this because I am a progressive, and sense these things…

They have to receive an education. We are not allowed to send them out to work (unlike my parents and grandparents). We have to provide…

There's a lot of debate about the research in this area, and most people recognise that there hasn't been enough research to say definitively what the harm to children is.

So clear evidence of harm then?

The debate should be about whether children have the right not to be hit,…

But step back and think about the argument that you're making. If you were to take the word 'children' from your sentence, and replace it with 'women', 'Maori', would you use the sentence? Probably not.

You forgot "slaves". We can still discipline our slaves, right? Because they are like children…

The bill is illiberal: there is no evidence that mild smacking is harmful to children and there are no liberal grounds for prohibiting it.

Hmm. There's a lot of debate about the research in this area, and most people recognise that there hasn't been enough research to say definitively what…

I think that, in this case, using the party whip to pass a law that 70% of the voting population oppose counts as bad politics. Even on your theory of representative democracy. You may disagree.

As for your lesson on the tyranny of the majority – why don't you…

by liberal do you mean old liberal, new liberal or neo liberal? it ain't old liberal (conservative) that's for sure. it is new…

The bill is undemocratic: most of our community does not believe that mild smacking should be made illegal.

I'm not even clear that the balance of…

Well, J, if I looked at prison stats – and the makeup of the folks who get prosecuted and convicted of death penalty offences – in the United States I'd probably make some…

Some of you men seem like you have some serious anger issues.

You think women are the issue?

Who do you think is responsible for most serious crime against children?
Mothers or Fathers?

Come on.

Heh heh – Riddley you have obviously done some time in the Gallery! (I thought it was a well kept secret where all the best political goss comes from).

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/

or if you're a Press Gallery journalist, here...

http://www.nzmagazineshop.co.nz/nz-magazine-shop/cover/255/new-idea/index.php3

Don't you all think you’re being just a tad over the top?

Do you REALLY think you'll be prosecuted?

And if so, what will the sentence be?

Fines? Community service? Prison? Home detention?

This kind of change is challenging, but absolutely necessary in my opinion.…

(And I think advocates of the Bradford Bill have gone a wee bit over the top in painting S.59 as a reliable get of jail free card for sadistic monsters. If anything, that kind of defence seems rather risky and far from certain.)

I can't imagine many people beat a…

Any guesses as to what will be the next like issue that makes it way to parliament?

Well, perhaps that's a good idea if you don't think Parliamentarians are anything more than poll-driven fruit cakes

and yet, according to D4J and a couple of Internet "polls" this is the most unpopular bit of legislation evah and NZ democracy is, as a result, on its knees.

Colour me…

Well, perhaps that's a good idea if you don't think Parliamentarians are anything more than poll-driven fruit cakes. I'm perfectly well aware that you can't draft a piece of legislation that will cover every eventuality in perpetuity…

It is conceivable that…

I meant to say interpretation of most aspects blah , blah ,

that word interruption just won't go away as it best describes this abysmal atttempt at trying to address the issues of…

I am strongly opposed to this bill.

People may use the criminalising of a light smack in proceedings for custody or protection orders. Zealous CYFs workers may use that criminalisation to take children from parents. Etc.

But people charged with assaulting their…

This will be a fact and I will be proved correct in the future and please do not insult…

Police have said they will treat smacking a child under rules of the DV Act, which clearly states any kind of abuse , including emotional is an offense. Police will have no alternative but to issue a PO.

Well whichever police you've been listening to, I think they need to…

hmm...
Girl hits Boy = 1 year (common assault)
Boy hits Girl = 2 years (Assault by male on female)

Domestic Violence is not an offence under the Domestic Violence Act – the only offences in that act relate to breach of a protection order and publishing a report of a proceeding under the act without leave of the court.

If my…

Police have said they will treat smacking a child under rules…

Can anybody answer my question as many Barristers cannot ?? – when a parent is arrested for smacking a child will they be subjected to the same provisions contained in a protection order under the DV Act

This Act won't change, and I wouldn't imagine its enforcement would either. People…

I will let them know, as they are totally confused because they thought they would charge under the DV act, which…

Um, yes and no. I know it's a school of political/jurisprudential thought that's falling out of favour, but I…

when a parent is arrested for smacking a child will they be subjected to the same provisions contained in a protection order under the DV Act

D4J – I can.

They will not.

People against whom a protection order is made will be subject to the provisions of protection orders.…

Silly to hit the little buggers anyway. You might break a nail or a knuckle, and at the rate children grow up today, you only have like…

Just imagine if the government had shown the public the enthusiasm for strengthening the family rather than passing legislation that will hand police another quagmire of bad family law.

Section 59 isn't family law, which deals with children's rights, parents, access, decisions about children etc etc. It's part of the…

I take your point Kyle, but the fact is we now have a set of conventions and expectations about the contours of discretion when it comes to the situations your describe. If the police DID start regularly bringing prosecutions for assault in the examples…

Twenty or thirty years Mr. O'Connor would now doubt have been objecting to beefed up policing of domestic violence because of the horror of having to arrest anyone when it was claimed they'd raised a hand to their wife, no matter how trivially.

Isn't it a shame we didn't have…

Twenty or thirty years Mr. O'Connor would now doubt have been objecting to beefed up policing of domestic violence because of the horror of having to arrest anyone when it was claimed they'd raised a hand to their wife, no matter how trivially.

Isn't it a shame we didn't have…

If anything, I could see a better analogy with the state of affairs BEFORE the homosexual law reform. Just because the police chose not to prosecute the majority of people who went round getting off with those of the same sex, didn't make the law right, did it?

I think…

I think this is where I came in, and it's where I'm getting…

Now would be a good time to observe that Greg O'Connor has been known to talk complete crap before – fairly frequently, in fact – and he's the only source for the story here.

Twenty or thirty years Mr. O'Connor would now doubt have been objecting to beefed up policing…

Michael, I'm agin laws that enshrine an idea. I think they are likely to be particularly bad laws.

All laws enshrine ideas.

That may be the silliest thing I've ever heard you say.

If anything, I could see a better analogy with the state of…

And that's where the riding crops come out.

aruh???

However, one thought that occurred to me this morning is that parents could start inciting their other…

Michael: I agree that moving towards a society where no-one smacks their kids is a good idea. Bradford's initial bill, the simple repeal, would have been that beacon legislation. But the public isn't there yet – nowhere near – and clearly…

It was…

I don't know about you, Russell, but when I'm in a combustible situation with grown ups I walk out of the room, go make…

Ideas like not hitting your kids will take a while to embed, but I'll support genuine efforts to discredit violence in the home.

Most PA readers probably agree when that argument is used in other areas – say drug law. It would send an admirable message about the dangers of drug abuse to outlaw party…

Regardless of how it is played out in individual cases, the idea is to stop using/condoning violence as a means of persuasion/correction.

Enshrining it in law means that the idea (non-violence) will be more…

"Reasonable force" remains undefined, which, need I remind you, was the whole problem the Bill was meant to address in the first place.

Sorry if this has come up, I've just been skimming...

As I understand it, while 'reasonable force' is not defined, the 'reasonable force' thing only comes into play…

The one thing I do know is that the only two times I ever smacked one of my daughters (burned into my memory) was a product of sleep deprivation, relentless two year old tantrums, and exhaustion of my (at the time) very limited parental tool-kit.

External forces…

"If it is family violence and there is evidence of violence, the policy is quite clear, the offender must be arrested. Greg O'Connor:

"That means an admission or a witness saying they saw someone smack. Police will have no choice but to arrest a person acting on a complaint."

Now…

I read Tapu Misa's article. I like Tapu Misa and I usually agree with what she writes. But she is using the same rhetorical sleight…

By "area best left alone" I meant keeping the status quo. Which is also not satisfactory.

The status quo is an intervention of its own. What you are arguing for is conservatism i.e. there may be good reasons for something to be the way it is, so it shouldn't be…

And yes, Craig is right. Sue Bradford, how ironic.

OK, am I the only person who quietly mutters 'bullshit' every time I hear the claim that 'time out' is a non-violent method of disciplining children?

No, what it is rather effective pychological intimidation that conditions children to associate undesirable behaviour with physical isolation and withdrawal of affection/attention from a…

Of course, those were the days when the popular image…

No, what it is rather effective pychological intimidation that conditions children to associate undesirable behaviour with physical isolation and withdrawal of affection/attention from a…

The short and curly is: message-wise, we've screwed ourselves inside out.

We?

Is it just me, or have people forgot that we're just extending to children the same rights adults have?

So while we're at it we should allow 2 year olds to drive, go to the pub, have sex,…

the same rights adults have

Except adults or 'planes or ships. Pilots/Captains can use reasonable force to discipline them :)

how to protect the voices of small people who don't speak up for themselves is where it gets difficult.

police currently do a reasonably good job…

plum, I don't see any connection between smacking and climate change. And if you're worried about perceptions of people who espouse progressive causes, you should stop that patronising "socially enlightened" bullshit.

Stephen-- Thanks for proving my point. You say the govt shouldn't intrude into the home, but don't they already…

"...offering a specific defence to people who assault their children."

Well, that's begging the question, isn't it? If there is such a…

I really think this is an area best left alone.

Well, that would suggest getting rid of sectin 59, rather than getting involved and offering a specific defence to people who assault their children.

I really think this is an area best left alone. We already have legislation on abuse and neglect, and there is already plenty of scope…

Most vague is where such force is for the purpose of "performing the normal daily tasks that are incidental to good care and parenting," as long as it is not "for the purpose of correction". Good, that's so much clearer.

My understanding is -…

out-of-touch patronising socialist bully

.

She leaves me as a young father freaked out that if a policeman/doctor/nurse/health professional sees either myself or my wife smack our children – they have to now contact CYF's because that will be their legal requirement – and…

What I consider unacceptable is the ‘wait ‘til your father gets home’ punishment, where the child has done something wrong and physical discipline is metered out in a cold, clinical manner.

I've always thought that punishment dished out at the scene of the crime is often a bit of stress…

A larger (political) point is that we're getting hammered…

What Parliament shouldn't do is pass a law that criminalises many thousands of parents every day...

Yeah they should. Children are icky. People who make them should get in trouble.