That was my guess too....for much the same reason... I just didnt pipe up because I knew I mis-remembered the name.... "Randell Sisters" was sticking in my mind, but I knew it was wrong...

Indeed. Any guesses on who the local session singers are?

Probably the Yandall Sisters. They were on just about everything, back then.

(Now, I've got beer to drink and rugby to watch.)

... "every electorate seat" won by a party that gets less than 5% of the vote would be an overhang, I meant.

There's no reason to draft a hypothetical electoral law like that. You could treat electorate seats won by parties not crossing the threshold the same as we currently…

So far the only argument I've heard against the lowest practical threshold of 0.8% (unless we raise the number of MPs) that isn't "I don't like minorities having any say", has been "It gives stability".

I'm surprised this is considered such a powerful argument.

We have a party-based, representative democracy…

MMP is the best thing that's happened to nz for ages in terms of democracy. It's still been hijacked along the way, but it's way better than fpp.

Ben, that is an unfair reduction.

I'll give you that in light of your follow up that it's disproportionate say for minorities you don't like. I wouldn't like that, nor do I like disproportionate say for majorities, and it wouldn't be how it works in MMP (because of the P).…

Nah, it'd be because it's just a hot-n-sexy song. It's called 'Fire' for goodness sake.

In that sense the Pointer Sisters' version is the definitive one, just like Patti Smith's 'Because the Night' is, more so than Bruce's.

Probably showing my age here, but there's a great mix tape (or…

It's actually a Springsteen song...I don't usually associate his music with "hot-n-sexy"...but maybe that's because I'm a guy?

Nah, it'd be because it's just a hot-n-sexy song. It's called 'Fire' for goodness sake.

In that sense the Pointer Sisters' version is the definitive one, just like Patti Smith's 'Because the…

Nevertheless, I think I'm pretty much in agreement with Keir over the disquiet over the "list" aspect to MMP.

Sorry, I never really got people who complained that list MPs are "undemocratic" because the list is supposedly drawn up in the proverbial smoky back room by a cabal of party…

I don't like minorities having any say

Ben, that is an unfair reduction. My objection is twofold: that they have a disproportionate say, and that their numerical size is often correlated with their unpleasant beliefs. You may feel that one or both of those claims is factually untrue, but it…

I'm surprised this is considered such a powerful argument. It's not like the instability means…

Nevertheless, I think I'm pretty much in agreement with Keir over the disquiet over the "list" aspect to MMP. The list is one way in which the party indicates what sort of…

Combines the proportionality of MMP with a simple means for the voters to write the party list.

Wouldn't it just put in candidates who ran in marginals?

Which isn't really very useful.

Admittedly I think all these attempts to muck around with the internal workings of political parties are daft:…

With no cut off, Bill and Ben would have had one seat in 2008, as would the Kiwi party.

The Destiny party would have had one seat in 2005.

We would have…

It's actually a Springsteen song

So true! I forgot that. But they're doing The Pointer Sisters' rendition in that Avis ad, definitely.

I think we discussed this some months ago and he said that it was stable in terms of not having frequent elections

Really? I was under the impression that they'd had, on average, about one p.a. since the war.

That Avis ad in turn reminds me of the awful sexist Hertz ad from the '80s. It used "To know him is to love him", but with "To know Hertz is to love Hertz" and ghastly soft-focus footage of female counter staff pouting at the camera.

To Hertz's credit, they…

I finally realise, nearly 30 years after the fact, that they're doing a car-rental variant of The Pointer Sisters' 'Fire'. Which is an oddly hot-n-sexy song to use.

It's actually a Springsteen song...I don't usually associate his music with "hot-n-sexy"...but maybe that's because I'm a guy?

I think 5% is too high, I'd be happy for it to drop, but not below 2.5%. That would give three MPs, maybe four.

Which strikes me as a good number because it basically rules out, in very tight votes, one MP – representing 0.8% of the population – being…

The experience of some European countries with low thresholds (Italy comes to mind, though Giovanni would know 10 times as much…

Heh! I think that "ganging up to seize power" might be an emotive word for 'democracy' (in that the majority calls the shots).

Yes, but it's an even better word for tyranny. Of the minority. Which is much worse than the (still bad) tyranny of the majority .

I think the word "extreme" is an emotive word for "minority".

Heh! I think that "ganging up to seize power" might be an emotive word for 'democracy' (in that the majority calls the shots).

I take your points... it's a complicated issue.

My point was that 115,000 voters was an awfully big number (generally entitled to 6 seats in Parliament) to be telling their views shouldn't be heard in Parliament.

Why does a threshold need to be in…

Re: extremist groups getting in on less than 5%, seriously, if 0.8% of the population wish to be represented by a crazy, then fair do's to 'em.

Ditto to the idea of Indians being represented by an Indian. I think the word "extreme" is an emotive word for "minority". I…

if 0.8% of the population wish to be represented by a crazy, then fair do's to 'em.

Started to respond to this — but George makes my point (and with far more brevity).

It's worth noting that you always have a threshold in a representative democracy that's dictated by the…

Eg, the speed limit is an arbitrary number — 104, or 95 kph would do about as well as the current value — but the purpose is not arbitrary.

If 120,000 people want a party represented in Parliament, they get it, but if 115,000 voters want a different party they're extremists?

And therein lies the problem with any line in the sand.

If 120,000 people want a party represented in Parliament, they get it, but if 115,000 voters want a different party they're extremists?

Any threshold is arbitrary. Actually, the whole thing is pretty arbitrary really isn't it? You know... life.

Isn't the only reason the tail gets to wag the dog…

If 120,000 people want a party represented in Parliament, they get it, but if 115,000 voters want a different party they're extremists?

Yes.

I'll match Stephen's opinion that we should keep the five percent threshold, and raise him the idea that we should get rid of the exception for parties that win a seat. The threshold keeps out extremists, and fuck me I'm so completely in favour of that.

I'm considering writing on…

so it wouldn't be ACT, United Future, and the Progressives so much as Rodney Hide, Peter Dunne, and Jim Anderton, all on their not-very-powerful lonesomes.

Um, Dunne and Anderton are already, aren't they? Which really just makes this is an argument to get rid of the Act party... and I…

The large number of 1-2% parties can all put through their favoured policies, often despite popular objection.

So maybe we could try around 3-4%? Enough to knock out the crazies, but would have got rid of, e.g., the NZ First/ACT imbalance last election.

if 0.8% of the population wish to be represented by a crazy, then fair do's to 'em.

it's amazing how many of the arguments boil down to simply But People We Don't Like Will Be in Parliament and Form Governments!

However, there is an argument for some kind of threshold,…

The show was pre-recorded and they did a retake. The clip only turned up on TV later as a blooper.

Andrew – Yeah, I saw Jase at the Qantas awards and he said he'd seen it, and told me the same story, although he said he wasn't completely sure whether…

My understanding of the system is that it shouldn't bias towards the big parties – you still get a party vote and they still get the same number of seats as under the current system.

OH, sorry, I getcha now. Thanks for clarification, that sounds way more sensible.

Re: extremist…

Given this day

etc etc

Actually, ACT, UF and Progressive all have electorates, so they'd survive.

Turning on my internet telepathy for a moment: I think Stephen means that we'd lose the associated MPs, so it wouldn't be ACT, United Future, and the Progressives so much as Rodney Hide, Peter Dunne, and Jim Anderton, all…

One can imagine various extremist groups mustering 0.8% as well, and then using the financial and admin base of an MP to bootstrap a larger organisation.

I can also imagine a lot of non-extremist groups doing it too. But that does depend on your definition of extreme. Under FPP, the…

Here's the last election results. If we gave seats for getting 0.8% of the vote (ie 1/120th) you can see that the Bill and Ben party would be in striking distance. One can imagine various extremist groups mustering 0.8% as well,…

I finally realise, nearly 30 years after the fact, that they're doing a car-rental variant of The Pointer Sisters' 'Fire'. Which is an oddly hot-n-sexy song to use.

Indeed. Any guesses on who the local session singers are?

At first read that sounded quite good. Second read, I don't really see how it counts as MMP at all. It's effectively a variation on FPP system – & would weight parliament in favour of the two biggest parties.

I think it means that parliament would end up with the same…

It is just who gets chosen that would change – eg the orange candidate may…

We could use the MMP method from the German state of Baden-Wurttemberg and proposed but turned down for Scotland. These guys don't have party lists – the list seats are instead filled by the candidates who lost their electorates by the smallest margin.

At first read that sounded quite good.…

For those that are interested, the Merata Mita documentary Patu! covers the 'mass civil disobedience' that took place in 1981 around this tour. The doco is available in full here and also Try Revolution which looks at the…

. The implication was, dear businessman, that the Hertz ladies would look after you.

I knew one of those Hertz ladies from university (shock horreur, they were models!).

And sadly, she didn't. But probly for the best.

"To know Hertz is to love Hertz"

I always thought that ad had a strange masochistic air about it.

We could use the MMP method from the German state of Baden-Wurttemberg and proposed but turned down for Scotland. These guys don't have party lists – the list seats are instead filled by the candidates…

The film ends with the MMP referendums…

It was never promised when MMP was voted in all those years ago, that we’d have a rethink a decade or so down the track,

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was. I remember part of the public information campaign was that in the event of a change, there would be…

a fantastic Avis ad from 1981

I finally realise, nearly 30 years after the fact, that they're doing a car-rental variant of The Pointer Sisters' 'Fire'. Which is an oddly hot-n-sexy song to use.

Does this mean they shouldn't get to vote on electoral change? No, but as I said to one young man at the Backbencher on Wednesday, nor is occasionally voting to change or retain electoral law a right, or even a good thing.

I thought it was a good thing last…

I'm inclined to also doubt the motives of National, but I always do, on pretty much everything. That doesn't mean that a referendum is a bad idea, just that it ought to be done properly.