Public Address | Cafe | Cracker: Lundy and Me. https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address Chris Halkides https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=352179#post352179 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=352179#post352179 Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:01:52 +1300 Rob Hosking https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=335564#post335564 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=335564#post335564 That always got to beloved and I: Lundy is such a terrible actor. That funeral performance was hollow, and I can believe the no tears claim.

Yeah – a lot of people were sympathetic or at least agnostic until they saw that. It looked too unreal, too staged. And because…

]]> Sat, 14 Feb 2015 09:24:45 +1300 Chris Halkides https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=335523#post335523 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=335523#post335523 Fri, 13 Feb 2015 12:18:17 +1300 Chris Waugh https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=298006#post298006 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=298006#post298006 But I’d just as likely get some child sexual abuse case

That's what I got, and the prosecution screwed it up so the trial was abandoned. Frustrating, to say the least.

]]> Tue, 15 Oct 2013 11:57:27 +1300 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=298004#post298004 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=298004#post298004 Which is a bit of a shame: I’d like to sit, listen, & observe a trial…

I like the idea of sitting on a jury. But I'd just as likely get some child sexual abuse case or something horrendous like that and want to spend all the time punching humanity in…

]]> Tue, 15 Oct 2013 11:46:31 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297949#post297949 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297949#post297949 I believe it’s a 30km radius from the courthouse

Ahh! Thanks...the nearest court house being in Hokitika (2 hours' drive, roughly 190k from my door) means I am not liable for jury duty. Nor would any South Westlander, south of Ross.

Which is a bit of a shame: I'd like…

]]> Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:15:42 +1300 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297946#post297946 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297946#post297946 I think the remote location bit still applies

I believe it's a 30km radius from the courthouse, for rather self-evident reasons, and I know people who have been summonsed for the Manukau District Court while resident closer to the Auckland High Court. Auckland is a challenge because some unfortunates (I…

]]> Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:07:12 +1300 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297945#post297945 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297945#post297945 With all the armchair relitigators (self included), I suspect they will have a hard time finding members for a jury that haven’t already spent time speculating, or been exposed to theories, on this case…

If the prosecution decides to revise the timeline to a late-night/early-morning event, that will change an…

]]> Mon, 14 Oct 2013 15:53:35 +1300 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297940#post297940 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297940#post297940 Mon, 14 Oct 2013 15:32:14 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297936#post297936 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297936#post297936 Thanks for that update Kyle!

I think the remote location bit still applies (while Whataroa had a courthouse, it didnt, but that courthouse is now closed.)

]]> Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:26:40 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297935#post297935 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297935#post297935 Chris, I dont know whether the jury-duty rules have changed, but it was certainly
the case when I did 2 years of an Ll.B at Canterbury waaaay back in the late 1960s.

]]> Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:24:03 +1300 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297913#post297913 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297913#post297913 I do think the qualifications should be redrafted (e.g as an ex law student living in a remote area, I am ineligible for jury duty-)

Current and former (graduated or not) law students are able to serve on juries. Barristers or solicitors with a current practicing certificate are not (source)

]]> Mon, 14 Oct 2013 11:17:04 +1300 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297912#post297912 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297912#post297912 IANAL, but I presume they could with something of the order of “but IF the time of death is presumed to be later, our evidence still shows Mr Lundy is guilty.”

It's a new trial, so they really don't have to deal with their old theories, just convince a jury…

]]> Mon, 14 Oct 2013 11:13:42 +1300 Chris Waugh https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297896#post297896 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297896#post297896 (e.g as an ex law student living in a remote area, I am ineligible for jury duty-)

Really? How is that? I would've thought some knowledge of the law would make you an asset on a jury, not disqualify you.

]]> Sun, 13 Oct 2013 22:22:10 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297892#post297892 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297892#post297892 This is *always* the case with high profile court cases.
I do not think our jury system is inadequate : I do think the qualifications should be redrafted (e.g as an ex law student living in a remote area, I am ineligible for jury duty-)

]]> Sun, 13 Oct 2013 19:50:29 +1300 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297891#post297891 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297891#post297891 With all the armchair relitigators (self included), I suspect they will have a hard time finding members for a jury that haven’t already spent time speculating, or been exposed to theories, on this case…

I honestly have no idea what the truth of it is. But I do think about…

]]> Sun, 13 Oct 2013 19:15:01 +1300 Jackie Clark https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297890#post297890 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297890#post297890 Sun, 13 Oct 2013 14:46:29 +1300 Dan O https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297878#post297878 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297878#post297878 http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_loftus_the_fiction_of_memory.html ]]> Sat, 12 Oct 2013 22:19:50 +1300 slarty https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297850#post297850 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297850#post297850 He was a smart, genuine guy, but it seemed to me he’d spent so long looking for inconsistencies with every aspect of the case ... that he’d started to see patterns where there was none.

You've just described what happens to investigators all too often. Fundamental Attribution Error.

]]> Sat, 12 Oct 2013 09:52:17 +1300 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297847#post297847 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297847#post297847 Sat, 12 Oct 2013 07:46:17 +1300 Rob Stowell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297836#post297836 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297836#post297836 Not guilty =/= didn’t do it.

Remember OJ Simpson? Found not guilty of murder in a criminal court, but convicted in a civil case of 2 counts of “causing wrongful death”.
It strikes me the cases that linger in the public mind are often those where the criminal standard of…

]]> Fri, 11 Oct 2013 22:19:57 +1300 Stephen Judd https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297830#post297830 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297830#post297830 the timeline on Stuff claims "tears streamed down his face" at the funeral. ]]> Fri, 11 Oct 2013 20:59:13 +1300 Lilith __ https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297813#post297813 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297813#post297813 I was going to say
not guilty = we can't be sure if they did it or not
BUT prosecutions can also fail because of technical cock-ups, nothing to do with the guilt or innocence of the defendant.

]]> Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:47:15 +1300 Lilith __ https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297809#post297809 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297809#post297809 Evidence has been weighed up, subject to extreme scrutiny and rejected.

Not guilty =/= didn’t do it.

Remember OJ Simpson? Found not guilty of murder in a criminal court, but convicted in a civil case of 2 counts of "causing wrongful death".

]]> Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:32:37 +1300 Don Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297807#post297807 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297807#post297807 Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:05:25 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297777#post297777 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297777#post297777 …legally.

And that word is a pretty massive caveat on the word "innocent". In normal speak, you're guilty if you did it, innocent if you didn't. "Not guilty" is a verdict, not a statement of fact.

]]> Fri, 11 Oct 2013 12:41:58 +1300 Don Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297756#post297756 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297756#post297756 Legally innocent unless proven guilty. "Not Guilty" means the prosecution failed to prove the accused committed the crime. Whether a person is actually innocent is another matter.

Quite. So until Lundy's retrial you are legally no less innocent of the crime as Lundy. And if the retrial finds him not…

]]> Fri, 11 Oct 2013 09:36:10 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297745#post297745 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297745#post297745 Actual whodunnit murders aren’t all that common in this country.

Except for that very strange yacht/ketch case murders...

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 21:31:03 +1300 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297744#post297744 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297744#post297744 One of the difficulties with murder cases as I understand it is that it’s almost always a one-off, an exceptional situation the killer is in, which won’t be repeated.

Frequently also domestic, and with the killer either present when the police show up or, if they're not, readily identified and…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 21:24:14 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297738#post297738 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297738#post297738 But my very strong suspicion is that it was not any of the accused who did the victimising. That was done by the people who coached them.

Totally & utterly -YES!

Most of them have either left CHCH environs or otherwise departed. It truly was a literal child-mind-molestation group there for…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 20:23:14 +1300 Lilith __ https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297736#post297736 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297736#post297736 But not guilty is not innocent

I keep seeing this and I object. Not guilty *is* innocent. Sorry, that’s how the system works, remember…Innocent until proven guilty.

It would be nice if the media remembered that occassionally.

Legally innocent unless proven guilty. "Not Guilty" means the prosecution failed to prove…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 20:18:45 +1300 Don Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297735#post297735 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297735#post297735 But not guilty is not innocent

I keep seeing this and I object. Not guilty *is* innocent. Sorry, that's how the system works, remember...Innocent until proven guilty.

It would be nice if the media remembered that occassionally.

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 20:03:53 +1300 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297734#post297734 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297734#post297734 I think it is unachievable. Peter Ellis is a pretty good example of what happens when the victims are considered unimpeachable (after some seriously fucked-up coaching, admittedly).

It's a bit more than that. It's not that there were no victims. But my very strong suspicion is that it was not…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 19:57:58 +1300 Lilith __ https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297731#post297731 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297731#post297731 better for a guilty person to go free than for an innocent person to be locked away

Further thought — I guess you can have both of these at once. If an innocent person is imprisoned for a crime, the guilty person GOES FREE, causing 2 injustices. So it's doubly…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 19:34:35 +1300 Lilith __ https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297730#post297730 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297730#post297730 a lawyer friend once told me that there is a legal principle that it is better for a guilty person to go free than for an innocent person to be locked away

One of the difficulties with murder cases as I understand it is that it's almost always a one-off,…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 19:18:24 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297728#post297728 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297728#post297728 . 1 If the person in the spotlight didn’t commit the murder, then who did?

In Ellis's case there was NO murder: there were insinuations of abused kids ( sexually & otherwise.)

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 18:52:55 +1300 Carol Stewart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297727#post297727 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297727#post297727 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 18:47:36 +1300 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297726#post297726 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297726#post297726 a (perhaps unachievable) system that accepted that in some crimes attacking the victim to create doubt is not the mark of a civilised and virtuous society.

I think it is unachievable. Peter Ellis is a pretty good example of what happens when the victims are considered unimpeachable (after some seriously…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 18:22:58 +1300 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297725#post297725 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297725#post297725 "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

I do like the response "better for whom?"

While I really do think the basic assumptions behind this principle are good, I also think that it can be taken to an unhealthy extreme. The discussion on another…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 17:16:25 +1300 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297724#post297724 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297724#post297724 a lawyer friend once told me that there is a legal principle that it is better for a guilty person to go free than for an innocent person to be locked away.

Blackstone's formulation. I'd heard it as 100 guilty go free, which is attributed to, amongst others, Benjamin Franklin,…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:57:53 +1300 Carol Stewart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297722#post297722 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297722#post297722 Q. 1 If the person in the spotlight didn't commit the murder, then who did?
But that's got nothing to do with the trial of the person in the spotlight. Our system is based on the premise of innocent until proven guilty, and the prosecution must put up a strong…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:24:22 +1300 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297721#post297721 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297721#post297721 Q. 2 Why are the police so seemingly incompetent in such cases?

I think I have some ideas about the second question. Part of the problem is you only notice these cases because something is wrong with them ... you don't notice all the cases where the police and prosecution…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:12:50 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297720#post297720 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297720#post297720 Don’t have to be sitting in the jury box to be asking why that boat wasn’t tracked down as a matter of priority.

Plus why when there was sightings of that boat (not Watsons) did the police not bother to look at those.
Because the Police are human, I suspect…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:12:11 +1300 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297719#post297719 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297719#post297719 Q. 1 If the person in the spotlight didn’t commit the murder, then who did?

Q. 2 Why are the police so seemingly incompetent in such cases?

In the Kahui case, it's actually quite hard to tell who actually did it. Chris was statistically likely to be the culprit (common-law…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:58:36 +1300 Geoff Lealand https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297716#post297716 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297716#post297716 I know that one is asked to have an opinion or take a position on this and other similar cases (Bain, Kahui twins etc etc), but just can't do it. Instead, I usually have two questions'

Q. 1 If the person in the spotlight didn't commit the murder, then who…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 14:42:30 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297714#post297714 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297714#post297714 In any case I am glad its going to the Privy Council,

With regards Lundy, his lawyer Malcolm Birdling did comment how difficult it was to get it to the Privy Council mentioning cost being a big part of it.
His bail hearing is tomorrow

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 14:41:00 +1300 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297713#post297713 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297713#post297713 Remember, the jury don’t hear all the evidence. They hear two stories constructed by two groups of advocates using the evidence that falls within the rules of admissibility.

Bingo. The jury doesn't hear close to everything, even in a very simple trial, and with these cases we're seeing rulings that…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:47:24 +1300 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297712#post297712 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297712#post297712 Remember, the jury don't hear all the evidence. They hear two stories constructed by two groups of advocates using the evidence that falls within the rules of admissibility.

(Which isn't to say that we're in any better position, or that, in fact, anyone is.)

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:54:13 +1300 BlairMacca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297711#post297711 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297711#post297711 But what the 3rd degree report showed was the Police led him to the house where she was killed, after he clearly had no idea how to get there.

In any case I am glad its going to the Privy Council, but I can't beleive such a clear miscarriage of…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:19:28 +1300 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297710#post297710 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297710#post297710 ill-informed dinner table discussion

My problem is I know with absolute certainty that I am ill-informed about these cases. I am almost certain that the folks around the tea table are equally ill-informed.

That there are problems with the prosecutions I am happy to accept. What I am unwilling to…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:54:43 +1300 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297708#post297708 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297708#post297708 I’d throw the Peter Ellis (Christchurch Creche) case in with that lot too.

Teina Pora case is heading to the Privy Council. A case which I would thank investigative journalism for. It was refreshing to see what I think is sadly lacking in that field.
ETA......oh now I get to…

]]> Thu, 10 Oct 2013 09:52:25 +1300 nzlemming https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297706#post297706 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297706#post297706 I'm not sure if you're saying that's what we were trying to do? It wasn't. I'd never ask a scientist anything other than a scientific question.

And neither would a lawyer in court. And if one did, the judge would disallow it.

]]> Wed, 09 Oct 2013 23:50:21 +1300 "chris" https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297703#post297703 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297703#post297703 In fairness to the prosecution, Taina Pora complicated things by confessing:

An experienced detective warned superiors that a teenager was not telling the truth about his involvement in the murder and rape of Susan Burdett.

His concerns were ignored and the teenager, Teina Pora, was eventually convicted of the horrific…

]]> Wed, 09 Oct 2013 21:24:29 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297702#post297702 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297702#post297702 nd yet Taina Pora a person who is clearly innocent and was basically framed b
I know nothing about this person & his case-

]]> Wed, 09 Oct 2013 20:55:47 +1300 BlairMacca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297700#post297700 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297700#post297700 Wed, 09 Oct 2013 20:52:15 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297694#post297694 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297694#post297694 Tautoko Matthew- I was in CHCH when the Ellis proscecution began; I publically supported him & law team not least because of the bits I knew about the interviewing of child witnesses and the wild & weird rumours going round the city (and where they originated.)

Describing a case as 'flakey/flakiness' & queries…

]]> Wed, 09 Oct 2013 20:02:15 +1300 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297649#post297649 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297649#post297649 all the talk of flakiness around those cases might have more to do with those ill-informed dinner table discussions, rather than a spate of particularly flaky cases.

We know for absolute fact that there was prosecutorial misbehaviour in Lundy, with things withheld from the defence. Bain was ruled an unsafe…

]]> Wed, 09 Oct 2013 11:36:17 +1300 Andre Alessi https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297646#post297646 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297646#post297646 Wed, 09 Oct 2013 11:26:27 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297629#post297629 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297629#post297629 The problem for me with all those trials is that the tea table discussions often came to the opposite conclusion to that of the jury which suggests the jury saw (important) evidence we did not.

Yeah, so you see my point – all the talk of flakiness around those cases…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 19:01:58 +1300 Craig Young https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297625#post297625 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297625#post297625 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 16:52:31 +1300 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297623#post297623 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297623#post297623 I’m really uncomfortable with people judging someone for not crying (or not crying “properly”) at a funeral.

Agree completely. If they don't cry like a hollywood actor, on cue, in front of the cameras, wearing the "right clothes" then they must be guilty????? One of the more disgusting pieces of…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 16:17:40 +1300 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297622#post297622 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297622#post297622 People were able to watch the evidence unfold night after night, back and forth

I was always worried about the process that selects which bits got into the 2 minute nightly news item. I realise a lot of what goes on is slow and can be summarised fairly quickly, but…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 16:13:48 +1300 Islander https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297621#post297621 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297621#post297621 I’d throw the Peter Ellis (Christchurch Creche) case in with that lot too.
That was very disqui

Very disquieting indeed..."A City Possessed" by Lynley Hood is essential reading
for those who doubt Ellis's innocence.

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 16:05:36 +1300 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297619#post297619 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297619#post297619 “got worse”? Really, Tom? Really?! You mean, it’s worse now with an actual, statutorily-independent oversight body, than it was when the police literally investigated their own? Actually, really, got worse?

Agreed. It’s empirical fact that formal oversight of the police has improved in recent years. It needed to.

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:50:29 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297615#post297615 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297615#post297615 The Bain, Watson and Lundy cases were considered flaky as the cell doors closed.

Were they? Or is it that these three trials were some of the biggest to take place since we allowed cameras in the courtroom? (It was 1995, the same year as the Bain trial, though I…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:22:46 +1300 Stephen R https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297614#post297614 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297614#post297614 The Bain, Watson and Lundy cases were considered flaky as the cell doors closed

I'd throw the Peter Ellis (Christchurch Creche) case in with that lot too.
That was very disquieting, and I knew a lot more about it than the three you list.

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:13:13 +1300 Tom Semmens https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297611#post297611 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297611#post297611 with an actual, statutorily-independent oversight body

You know what? I've got this bridge for sale....

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:43:37 +1300 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297610#post297610 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297610#post297610 Oversight of the police has got worse, and legal aid has been stripped.

"got worse"? Really, Tom? Really?! You mean, it's worse now with an actual, statutorily-independent oversight body, than it was when the police literally investigated their own? Actually, really, got worse?

As for legal aid, that's a fairly…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:19:38 +1300 Tom Semmens https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297609#post297609 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297609#post297609 Whether that period has totally ended is hard to tell

How can you say it has ended? Oversight of the police has got worse, and legal aid has been stripped. All that could have happened is the police are no longer getting found out in even high profile cases, let…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:11:09 +1300 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297605#post297605 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297605#post297605 But what is emerging is a constant pattern of police over-reach with evidence that amounts to incompetence.

Damian's caveat about the prosecution aside, there's a clear decade-ish starting with David Tamihere and roughly ending with Mark Lundy where a number of high-profile murder investigations appear to have been conducted with…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:54:49 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297601#post297601 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297601#post297601 The police over-reach because they think they can

I'm not necessarily saying this isn't the case, but it's important not to conflate the police with the Crown (prosecution), whose job it is, if not to 'over-reach' exactly, to put together the best interpretation of facts and events it can to…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:30:19 +1300 Tom Semmens https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297599#post297599 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297599#post297599 I have no idea if Lundy killed his family or not. But what is emerging is a constant pattern of police over-reach with evidence that amounts to incompetence.

The police over-reach because they think they can – in trials they actively expect the connivance of juries drawn from a public…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:52:14 +1300 Roger Lacey https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297598#post297598 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297598#post297598 I’m really uncomfortable with people judging someone for not crying (or not crying “properly”) at a funeral.

I feel exactly the same. It's really creepy when people start to judge others by the way they behave in grief.

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:52:03 +1300 Job Jesse Rustenhoven https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297596#post297596 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297596#post297596 For several weeks, months even, I read everything I could about every questionable aspect of the Lundy case

I was relieved with the direction your story eventually took, as this sounds like an awesome starting point for confirmation bias

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:43:05 +1300 Evan Yates https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297595#post297595 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297595#post297595 I’m not quite sure what you’re saying here. Are you saying the same as I’m saying above? The rest of the night’s events as outlined by the prosecution have everything taking place between two phone calls from Petone at 5.43pm and 8.28pm – that’s what requires the land-speed record trip.… ]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:33:20 +1300 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297594#post297594 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297594#post297594 I’m pretty sure 90’s Nokia/Ericsson phones usually had a computer interface that would have let you do just that. You could certainly text from your computer using the phones of that era.

Sure, but it's a whole new level to make a remote connection to said computer from another location,…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:28:56 +1300 Ianmac https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297592#post297592 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297592#post297592 Movies would have conditioned us to be sympathetic to the innocence of the accused if he/she is a goodlooking intelligent victim. The bad guy/girl is less likeable and we are glad when the bad guy gets his/her come-uppance?
But what if the accused is not an attractive person. Nor articulate…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:14:59 +1300 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297590#post297590 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297590#post297590 in light of the times given, perhaps there was a way to make the later call, without physically being there

Without a whole lot of quite complicated jiggery-pokery, it's bloody hard to do that now. Rewind to the start of last decade and it was also bloody hard to do…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:03:24 +1300 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297589#post297589 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297589#post297589 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:00:50 +1300 Lilith __ https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297587#post297587 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297587#post297587 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:54:31 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297585#post297585 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297585#post297585 IANAL, but I presume they could with something of the order of “but IF the time of death is presumed to be later, our evidence still shows Mr Lundy is guilty.”

Given that their job is to establish guilt beyond reasonable doubt, I don't know they'd be doing them any…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:42:27 +1300 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297583#post297583 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297583#post297583 Clue-doh!
I guess I’m saying it’s never been regarded as a contentious fact in the whole thing
Ta for the clarification.
As a DA*, I'm not trying to refute the evidence per se, just feeling out the parameters of possibility – and I guess I'm influenced by all those movies…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:19:47 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297578#post297578 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297578#post297578 t’s a bit of an Aunt Sally argument to throw in yesterday’s stabbing

I was just pulling out the most recent person I could think of who also stands accused of a crime, and is therefore "innocent". He stands accused, just like Lundy. It sounds like you have your doubts…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:02:44 +1300 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297577#post297577 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297577#post297577 What if...
Another scenario for both the Bain and Lundy murders (and maybe even the Crewes) – could there be the possibility of a totally disassociated person (in all senses of the word) involved in them – a homicidal stranger passing thru...
– ie someone and something completely random -…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:01:14 +1300 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297576#post297576 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297576#post297576 Legal question: If/when this goes back to court, does the prosecution have to stick with the 7pm murder theory or are they allowed to put forward the alternative late night murder story?

IANAL, but I presume they could with something of the order of "but IF the time of death…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:54:37 +1300 David MacGregor https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297575#post297575 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297575#post297575 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:52:28 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297574#post297574 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297574#post297574 Edit: in light of the times given, perhaps there was a way to make the later call, without physically being there – would depend on whether a conversation took place, I guess

He spoke to a friend about a business deal. I'm not sure given how cell towers work how…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:46:16 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297573#post297573 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297573#post297573 I took it from this statement that the patchwork of expert evidence – and I mean that simply as a number of things sewn together to make a whole – amounted to conclusive proof of guilt in your mind.

No, I was really talking about the process of trying to…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:35:14 +1300 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297572#post297572 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297572#post297572 the ring of truth… or verisimilitude?
Actually it’s based on two telephone calls he’s confirmed to have made connected to those cell towers
ah, the meta data –
did talking take place?
(ie corrorborated conversation)
do we know the content?

or was there just connections?
– where would one find…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:33:31 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297569#post297569 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297569#post297569 the rest of the night’s events become quite feasible as outlined by the prosecution. No need for land-speed record driving

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you saying the same as I'm saying above? The rest of the night's events as outlined by the prosecution have everything…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:26:13 +1300 David MacGregor https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297567#post297567 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297567#post297567 Problem was, every person we furnished with the information, every scientific opinion we sought, from a forensic pathologist to an expert in immunohistochemistry said they agreed with the findings presented by the prosecution. (We didn’t ask about the stomach contents evidence, and I agree it seems pretty weak).
I took…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:22:11 +1300 Evan Yates https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297566#post297566 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297566#post297566 According to Bryan Bruce's 2009(?) documentary, once you re-arrange the timing due to the uncertainty of speed of food digestion, the rest of the night's events become quite feasible as outlined by the prosecution. No need for land-speed record driving
If a retrial is ordered it will be interesting to…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:15:35 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297565#post297565 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297565#post297565 but to extrapolate that into – 'Does this mean, in your opinion, they are guilty?' has no value whatsoever.

I'm not sure if you're saying that's what we were trying to do? It wasn't. I'd never ask a scientist anything other than a scientific question. "Is this, in your opinion,…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:01:58 +1300 David MacGregor https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297564#post297564 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297564#post297564 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 09:55:59 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297563#post297563 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297563#post297563 …and surely, all that indicates is that his phone was in that cell tower’s range

Actually it's based on two telephone calls he's confirmed to have made connected to those cell towers.

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 09:51:43 +1300 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297562#post297562 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297562#post297562 Thus the whole “his phone was connected to this cell tower” argument was less convincing to me.
...and surely, all that indicates is that his phone was in that cell tower's range, it's not surgically attached to him, nor is it accused of anything...

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 09:46:52 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297561#post297561 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297561#post297561 Hey Garth – nice to see you commenting here – thanks for your work breaking the news last night.

Garth was indeed the Hooch/Turner in this story, and the camera operator I refer to who opened my eyes to the 'later' theory has also pitched in above (hi Phillip). I…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 09:37:06 +1300 Garth Bray https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297557#post297557 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297557#post297557 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 09:14:04 +1300 izogi https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297556#post297556 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297556#post297556 I’m of the opinion that we have a history of convicting people of crimes because they just aren’t likeable at all, or are seen as strange in some way.

I tend to agree with you, and I don’t trust myself to judge this case (certainly not from where I am).…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 09:05:34 +1300 Stephen R https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297554#post297554 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297554#post297554 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 08:50:13 +1300 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297552#post297552 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297552#post297552 I’m of the opinion that we have a history of convicting people of crimes because they just aren’t likeable at all, or are seen as strange in some way.

Lindy Chamberlain, anyone? No matter what the evidence was around the disappearance, the court of public opinion strung her up for…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 08:27:21 +1300 Mark Thomas https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297551#post297551 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297551#post297551 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 08:21:48 +1300 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297547#post297547 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297547#post297547 Solved by the old bill...?
What a shame there were no smart electricity meters back then, or something that could tell what power was used in the house and when – just a passing thought...
We're from the future, we want to help...
Once (inevitably?) all our domestic devices have…

]]> Tue, 08 Oct 2013 07:47:57 +1300 Jackie Clark https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297545#post297545 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297545#post297545 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 07:23:58 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297543#post297543 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297543#post297543 Mon, 07 Oct 2013 23:41:19 +1300 Andrew Ferguson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297542#post297542 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297542#post297542 It's in the Privy Council decision para 105
http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/201341/Lundy%20judgment.pdf

]]> Mon, 07 Oct 2013 23:38:33 +1300 Hebe https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297540#post297540 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297540#post297540 Not long after I let the story go – I moved on to another show – I was out with a camera operator who’d been there at the funeral, who’d filmed Mark Lundy and claimed there were no tears behind those hysterical sobs.

That always got to beloved and I:…

]]> Mon, 07 Oct 2013 23:27:06 +1300 phillip melville https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297539#post297539 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297539#post297539 Mon, 07 Oct 2013 23:26:25 +1300 Robyn Gallagher https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297538#post297538 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297538#post297538 There's something about this case that has always intrigued me and your post has pretty much explained what – that, yeah, Lundy did it, but the police got the story wrong.

The media seemed to be on the side of David Bain (oh, that loveable nerd in the Cosby jumper),…

]]> Mon, 07 Oct 2013 23:16:02 +1300 Damian Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297537#post297537 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297537#post297537 Mon, 07 Oct 2013 23:15:28 +1300 Andrew Ferguson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297536#post297536 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297536#post297536 Mon, 07 Oct 2013 23:12:18 +1300 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297535#post297535 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-lundy-and-me/?p=297535#post297535 Discussion from blog post.

]]> Mon, 07 Oct 2013 23:12:18 +1300